Forums > Social Discussion > Abusive Relationships - why? (and how to get out, please)

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:I do have severe problems to understand, why someone would get into, or stay in an abusive relationship...

Reading this didn't really make it clear to me, even though I do understand the following:

a) usually an abusive relationship escalates, meaning it didn't start out as such. After someone falls in love with someone, has a relationship - this turns violent after some time for various reasons. Gradually someone slips into that

b) after a partner turns violent in the relationship, it is extremely difficult for the other to break off/ out. Sometimes it's not easy at all to find assistance and help/ understanding from family and friends to get away from the formerly beloveth partner... (even though this to me is almost unimaginable)

c) Especially when children are involved, things get very messy...

c) Fear seems to be a key factor.

Now my question to all of those who have real life, or second hand experience with it AND who would not mind to contribute:

- How can one tell early enough that the relationship is tilting?

- What can one do when facing her/ himself in an abusive relationship?

I would understand if you keep off this topic, but greatly appreciate your input as it might help others to help others - or even themselves...

Thanks hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

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Posted:The fact that she feels the need to chase someone round the net and make not only Gothfrogettes life miserable but also her own (I mean seriously what type of life would one have if they are busy chasing someone from their past?) makes me feel sorry for her in a weird type of way.

But seriously Fiona, what you wrote was not very fair or justified no names were mentioned before and now you have gone and made it known to all our community exactly who was being talked about.

You know cyber stalking is a form of abuse too right?


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Loki_the_trickster
SILVER Member since Feb 2006

Loki_the_trickster

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Posted: Written by: Medusa



You know cyber stalking is a form of abuse too right?


you took the words right out of my mouth
In a private message to Goth I even said that I felt bad for her because they are continuing to abuse her frown its sad....really sad


My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....

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FireByNite
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

FireByNite

Are you up for it??
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Total posts: 349
Posted:Wow what an "interesting" piece thread to read now.

hug to GothFrogette and anyone else that is/has been in an abusive relationship


clapto anyone that has managed the very hard process of getting out of it


Are you up for it?
wink;)

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

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Posted:*Is somewhat confused by the above deleted messages, but relieved that he missed it*

Personally I think the main key to dealing with any kind of difficult people (be it in a relationship, a friendship or a family) is to have self confidence. I know you can't just grow assurance out of nowhere and that it's difficult to just suddenly do, but ultimately, people with high self esteem and confidence will get out of abusive relationships before people with low esteem.

Most of the time you can bounce back from anything if you have the faith in yourself to do so.

Not sure whether any of the above means anything, or is just pointing out the obvious, so I'll shut up. hug biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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BansheeCat
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Posted:I think your comment is valid Sethis,and for me, self confidence represents an important part of healthy being.

But I have a question for you, or sort of a general observation: don't you need to possess an adequate skill set to be confidant about? I mean, how can you be confident that you can do something, when you don't know how? Or why? Or what needs doing first?

Sometimes, we actually do encounter things we are not yet capable of( doing, managing) -sometimes things we never will be capable of - and that is just reality. We are not all equally competant, and along with lack of confidence, amy also have areas of false confidence. Also tricky.

I guess I am just thinking that along with general sort of self esteem, we need to develop some skills to give it a foundation in reality. To learn the practical ways to problem solve, to understand yourself and others, to build something, or change something... They are concrete things, and sometimes it is not enough to just feel you can do it without grounding in a sufficient life skill set.

Self confidence, coming from a place of actual competance, could be a very powerful, grounded approach to getting out of an abusive situation.

What do you think?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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buzzingtalk


buzzingtalk

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Posted:Very well put!
I would say I am generally a confident person, and if you met me you would most probably say the same. I am outgoing, easy to talk to, communicative etc. But I am confident with some things yet some things break me, and I loose any manner of confidence in my ability. So do ceetain parts of self confidence make you a healthy being, or a general whole feeling of self worth?

Maybe this is why some people cant get out of bad situations in relationships, even if it is real early on and the signs are there? They may come acrosss as a generally confident person, but lack confidence in one area that is obviously key to them thus weakness? Hope it makes sense.


Kiss me now, You're beatiful, For these days are truly the last.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

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Posted: Written by: andrealee


But I have a question for you, or sort of a general observation: don't you need to possess an adequate skill set to be confidant about?



Not all the time. It (of course) depends on the situation. I may not be confident that I know about something but I can be confident in my ability to learn. If I feel able to go into something I know nothing about and learn from it, then I would say that I have the right confidence level. Rather than the alternative, which is to never go into situations you don't know exactly how to cope with, because you're afraid you'll fail/won't learn.

 Written by: andrealee


Sometimes, we actually do encounter things we are not yet capable of( doing, managing) -sometimes things we never will be capable of - and that is just reality. We are not all equally competant, and along with lack of confidence, amy also have areas of false confidence. Also tricky.



Of course, but it's not just confidence in your ability, it's confidence in your ability to withstand possible failure.

Example: I may be confident that I can walk on thin ice, because I believe it will take my weight. The very act of walking on the ice indicates that I have confidence enough to take the risk of the ice breaking. So irrespective of whether I slide around or fall in, I possess the confidence necessary to take a risk. If I didn't have confidence, I wouldn't ever attempt to walk on the ice.

 Written by: andrealee


I guess I am just thinking that along with general sort of self esteem, we need to develop some skills to give it a foundation in reality. To learn the practical ways to problem solve, to understand yourself and others, to build something, or change something... They are concrete things, and sometimes it is not enough to just feel you can do it without grounding in a sufficient life skill set.




Of course you're right. Confidence is just one thing you need. There are many others. Trust. Empathy. Life Skills. Too many to list. I just happen to think that confidence is the biggest one to do with abusive relationships, because you can be as "skillful" as anything, but never work up the courage to use the skill. While confidence can sometimes work on it's own, relying on it to replace ability leads to cocksure-ness and arrogance. You'll hit the ground hard when you fail repeatedly because while you talk the talk, you can't walk the walk.

 Written by: andrealee


Self confidence, coming from a place of actual competance, could be a very powerful, grounded approach to getting out of an abusive situation.



Depends on how you define competence. What is "competence" in a relationship scenario? Is it a different skill set in an abusive one to a normal one? How would we gain competence except by experience?

I'm just letting my mind wander around, so sorry if it's all a bit strange. I'm still concussed about this .

 Written by: buzzingtalk


But I am confident with some things yet some things break me, and I lose any manner of confidence in my ability. So do certain parts of self confidence make you a healthy being, or a general whole feeling of self worth?



I think you need to have a general confidence in your ability to adapt and change, and to take what life throws at you and get back up. I'd call this "Survival Confidence".

You also need to be confident that you can accomplish things, and succeed in your endeavors. I'd call this "Accomplishment Confidence".

You also need to be confident in your surroundings, be that the house you live in, your friends, your lover, your family or your friends. You need to be confident in your base, and have some kind of stability. I'll call this "Environment Confidence".

Those are the main 3 off the top of my head. I'm making it all up as I go along, so I'm sure there are psychologists who make 60,000 to say exactly the same thing in a book somewhere... wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:nice breakdown.
I think maybe for this subject, survival confidence would be the first thing to needed to get out of an abusive relationship. Probably most people in them are lacking in 1 and 3, possibily accomplishment confidence as well( though many are very successful in that area of their life.)

Overall, I agree completely with you, but would suggest that the ability to learn could actually be considered a skill set. Your whole cateogory of survival confidence could be, really.

So how do some people develop this awareness and skill set, and other dont?Do we all have this capacity to the same degree? Is some of it inate? How much relates to how you were raised? How can an adult start to develop this? How could you make an adult aware that they even need this?How would you teach it?

Your questions about competance, and how it relates to relationships, and how it can be accuired, other than through experience... I think maybe this is where we can use models of appropriate behaviour that we have seen to learn from,and certainly use other peoples expereinces, and what we discover through conversations like these, to prepare ourselves for the unknown/unexpected/unexpereinced things that come up in life.

Also the skill of thinking laterally- maybe you dont have expereince with a sepcific stituation, but can learn to take other skills/awareness/expereinces and apply what you know about them to the new situation you are in...

And confidence to withstand failure should also be grounded in a realistic assessment of risk. Abusive relationships come with pretty high risk levels for all concerned. Even the ability to assess risk is not universal, and may need to be learned/taught...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I like the HoP way of philosophising (is that the word???) about nearly every topic, breaking it down etc. Even though I have to admit that that's usually the point where I leave the debate, because it requires a lot of concentration, AND I think it's not always feasible.

If you're in an abusive relationship you DON'T think about things like "accomplishment confidence", or if you do then in a much more emotional and less rational way, and if you want to deal with it, I doubt you'll be able to break your situation down as nicely as in a theoretical post...

Not to say stop discussing it like you do, it's very interesting'n'allthat, but it lacks a bit of practicality.

As to how we heal, andrea, I think the first step is not to fear or to hate, but to pity. I don't say to forgive or to embrace, because even though they are wonderful principles, they'll potentially get the abused person hurt more, and the abuser isn't shown where lines have to be drawn. But understanding that most people aren't evil because they want to, but because they've been made it and aren't strong enough to stop, or because they've got a mental problem, helps.

The only people who want to hurt for the pleasure of it are psychopaths. I'm not using this word as an insult as most do, but to describe the illness where people are just dulled towards emotions until only things like torture can give them joy, and what would scare anyone else doesn't touch them.

Everyone else is trying to, consciously or not, compensate for something. From something as simple as jealousy (I'm sure lots of people on here have taken a small "revenge" or given a silent treatment for that!) to something as cruel as having been abused before, and thinking abusing someone else will give them control back.

Understand it, take the action if you can (conversation, therapy, or end of relationship), and you'll have healed at least yourself to some extent. Hate is close to fear and vice versa, but pity is love smile Cry for what your partner's been through that messed them up, but don't let them make you cry.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:
I think philosphising is certainly more of a preventative thing, and also healing in its own way-- as opposed to a practical method of leaving an abusive relationship. To be sure, what someone needs in the situation is really only one thing-- to leave- and to have the means to do so. That bit is pretty clear. Lots of practical support services out there to facilitate that.

But I dont think it solves the long term problem at all, unfortunately.

As for healing, maybe empathy more than pity?

And I would agree, it can be an important part of the healing process, later. But maybe people start with that emotion too soon...

Practically speaking, pity can be dangerous. Sometimes those within an abusive relationship understand all too well the litany of insecurities and frustrations and inadeqaucies and history that lead their abuser to act that way. And they do know that inside, deep down, the person may not want to behave that way. They have seen the lovable, loving side too, that can be why they get sucked into staying.

That knowledge, that pity or empathy sometimes is seriously counterproductive; encouraging the abused to think that maybe their partner will change, or that they are needed to help their abuser( poor wee thing, he/she's hurt needs help, needs love) , that the abuser does not mean to do it and it won't happen again etc etc. Pity can provide excuses.

I think anger might be a more appropriate tool for the first step. It is a powerful fuel for change , in some cases. I dont mean angry behaviour that is destructive or violent, rather anger that is coming from a place that says: I deserve better than this. I dont care why they are behaving that way. This will stop, and now."

I have often wondered where is the anger in the people being abused? The answer I get for myself relates back to what Sethis was saying about self confidence, and self esteem, and the lack there of.

Anger might just be what gets you out; it can burn away the debris leaving a clear, calm, controlled , caculating fire inside...Pity is not likely to. Pity will as you say, help heal some of the wounds later, perhaps. Pity expressed at a very very, safe distance!

But if we knew why people got into it to begin with, both as perpetrators and as victims maybe we could create a more lasting change?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thinking about it twice I detect that in some ways the relationship with the mother of my daughter has been somewhat abusive in certain ways. And if I think about it thoroughly - I have been somehow abusive in relationships myself eek

There are many kinds of abuse: physical and mental (just to name two basic types)... It certainly is about domination and a lack of self esteem... whereas maybe the one who is abusing his/ her partner might be the one with the lower level of self confidence and hovering in this (inner) conflict.

Domination over the partner is one possible way of compensating inferior complex.

*These are all random thoughts running through my mad mind right now, so please be patient if I am writing BS... or spank me for it - as you like*

I like the approach "WHY is this happening and WHAT is it I can/ have to learn from it...

The abusing and the abused partner are possibly both "looking" for something, maybe it's about boundaries - I'm not certain - one to receive and the other to set them up. The learning experience of the one who is getting abused might be to come to a "reasonable level" of self-love. The abusing partner might look for a partner that is setting those "basic" levels of togetherness and stick to it... therefore looking for a strong(er) partner...

No justification, but maybe ONE possible (different) approach to the subject... umm ?

ditto FireByNite... my due respect and compassion to all who have suffered and found the strength to get out or even to "pacify" their partners... hug

As to the deleted posts (which I also missed): Fiona, I can't find any names named and that the guy is your husband... shrug I don't know you, yoru husband, nor do I know Goth personally... I can respect that you are trying to "defend" your husband and "set records straight", but maybe you respect that the views Goth expressed here, were what remained in her memory.

If you(r husband) see(s) this different, it should be a obvious indication that there are issues and (if you are interested) you make efforts to work this out by setting up a dialogue? Just to come to peace... ? I hope you come to terms...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Nephtys


Nephtys

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Posted:I found this quite a good article:

http://www.drjoecarver.com/loser.html
br>

But I have no experience of abusive relationships, so I have no idea whether it would actually be helpful to someone who is/has been in an abusive relationship.

hug hug hug for all of you who have suffered!


everyone's unique except me

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

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Posted:Andrea, I didn't mean pity in an "I'll forgive him/her and it won't happen again" sense. Just a "I'm sorry for how messed up they are, but I won't let them pull me in and make me just as bad".

Anger can help, but it usually makes things worse. If you're the one who's put down, showing your anger to your partner means they'll put you down stronger, finding new ways of it, just to maintain control.

Sure, you need anger to break out, but anger makes you irrational. That can be good, but usually what you need to break out of a situation is a straight head.

When my ex stood before me and threatened me and I could see his eyes all cold and full of hate, something snapped in me. We'd had lots of arguments and they usually led nowhere, except for me getting no sleep all night because of him telling me how crap I was and that he would show the world what a great man he was (I'm simplifying, but that was about it).

But the moment he actually threatened to beat me up, I realised what a pathetic little creature he was. I stepped up to him, on his feet actually, smiled in his face and told him to go ahead. I then put some music on and sang along and asked him politely to get out. He didn't actually leave until the next morning, when I gave him back his keys, said he could come back once for his things, and give me back mine or I'd have the locks changed.

Maybe it's a case of pity along with distancing yourself from the person.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

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Posted: Written by: andrealee


So how do some people develop this awareness and skill set, and other dont? Do we all have this capacity to the same degree? Is some of it innate? How much relates to how you were raised? How can an adult start to develop this? How could you make an adult aware that they even need this?How would you teach it?



I would say that the ability to do well in relationships is dependant on your upbringing and personal experiences. While we all possess an innate ability to give and recieve affection (basically what a relationship is), sometimes this can get confused by events that have happened. People with bad childhoods (if you'll excuse the stereotype) are more likely to be in abusive relationships when they're older. This is because their role models are not indicative of a good relationship. I'm sorry, I've never been in an abusive realtionship and I don't know anyone very well who has been the abusive partner in a relationship so I can't comment too much on it.

As to whether adults can learn/improve on it, I don't know. I think that we aquire the basics of relationship ettiquette and skill when we're teenagers, then just build on that knowledge as we get older. I don't know what it might take to change a lifetime of distorted behaviour. I imagine it might be somewhat like trying to heal a mental illness, of sorts (that's not meant in a derogatory fashion, it's an analogy). The person needs to have support of friends and family where possible, and they need help from somewhere. I guess there are many ways in which it's possible to break "learned behaviour" but I'm not that well read up on them, I've never had the need to.

 Written by: andrealee


And confidence to withstand failure should also be grounded in a realistic assessment of risk. Abusive relationships come with pretty high risk levels for all concerned. Even the ability to assess risk is not universal, and may need to be learned/taught...



Yeah, risk is a pretty interesting one, but I would say that it's difficult with abusive relationships, because it's different to almost any other kind of risk. With my Ice example, then the options are laid out in front of you, and you have a clear choice, with no external factors. You know it's risky, and you make your own decision. With relationships, then often you can't see all the issues. You don't see the risk at the start, but the relationship becomes risky after the abuse starts. The vast majority of relationships don't start out abusive, they become so. That makes risk assessment very difficult when you first enter the relationship. Then, when you're in the relationship then your perceptions can become skewed through the psychological damage being done to you by the abusive partner. You may not be able to judge clearly the right course of action, or weigh up pros and cons. All of this can lead to bad decisions that prolong the relationship and therefore prolong the abuse, so it seems to be a vicious circle.

Basically, to avoid the circle, you need to have enough confidence to say "No. That is NOT acceptable." the first time a partner shows abusive tendancies. If they do it again then you need to have the confidence to leave, immediately and with no compromise. Those are the two key times (I think) where it is easier to cut off the relationship, after that then it can get messy.

 Written by: Birgit


If you're in an abusive relationship you DON'T think about things like "accomplishment confidence", or if you do then in a much more emotional and less rational way, and if you want to deal with it, I doubt you'll be able to break your situation down as nicely as in a theoretical post...



Well, I've got three excuses for that:

1. I've never had to apply any of this knowledge in real life. Therefore I'm just giving voice to hypothetical opinions that I hope I never have to use. It's my thoughts on abuse, not my experiences.

2. I'm at University. I've gotten used to writing in a rational and academic manner through my A-Levels and degree. It's just habit now to break things into sections, to give examples and use random terminology.

3. I'm desperately trying to avoid giving offence to anyone. These are my opinions and speculations, so they are necessarily abstract. What I'm trying to do is talk in a precise way that lessens any possible chance of mis-interpretation.

As for the anger vs pity thing, I would be with andrea in saying that anger is more constructive than pity if you can control it. If you let anger loose with no restraints then you have problems. If you never let it out at all you have problems. What I try to do is use the anger as motivational, so if someone makes me angry then I try to think to myself "Anger is not a healthy state of mind, therefore I do not want to be angry, therefore I need to find a way to stop whatever is making me angry" this will generally lead to me either talking to the person that is making me angry or to leave until I have calmed down. Either of these courses of action may work in a relationship, so long as you don't just do one or the other. You can't walk away all the time, because that solves nothing. You can't talk to them all the time, because there is never any action to back up the words. You need to be confident enough to walk up to them and talk rationally about your problem, and if that doesn't work, then give them a break and try again. If that doesn't work, then leave. It's your only remaining option.

Once your anger has helped you leave, and you're standing outside of the relationship point of view, then you can find sympathy/pity. Not before, because if you sympathise with your enemy then you lose the ability to fight them effectively. You need to see them as alien and hostile in your minds eye, because that's what they are. After this then you can say "poor guy/girl" but not while the conflict is still there.

hug to you all, love talking with you!


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

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Posted:Sethis, you don't need to justify your way of thinking! I was just doubting that it would be to use to anyone in a relationship like that. I'm an academic, too, but you can't analyse a situation like that if you're in it, it only works if you're detached enough. I didn't take any offence to anything you said... it's a nice way of reasoning for an essay in a psychology class smile

Maybe I'm too close to the original topic in its more practical sense... I'm in no way asking you guys to stop analysing it smile

 Written by:

You can't walk away all the time, because that solves nothing. You can't talk to them all the time, because there is never any action to back up the words. You need to be confident enough to walk up to them and talk rationally about your problem, and if that doesn't work, then give them a break and try again. If that doesn't work, then leave. It's your only remaining option.




Now, the definition of an abusive relationship is, that things don't work like they do in normal ones. Maybe it is because you've never been in one, but there are situations and people where rational talk just doesn't work, and if everyone could just walk away, FireTom wouldn't have had to put the question up in the first place...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

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Posted:Lots of interesting ideas!

I am mulling on why most our societies consider anger bad, and dangerous... It is interesting. It is just another state of emotion, and can be used in all different ways for insight and action. I guess we often see anger leading to violence, and think it is the cause of the violence.
I would qeustion this, but then again, I question everything, another thread?

I completely agree that sometimes rational talking is often completely impossible!

And Sethis, If someone is threatening or cruel in any way, I am not even sure about given them second chances. I might just be like, fine, apology accepted, I understand where you are coming from, and even forgive you. But I will do that somewhere else, with someone else( or alone!)

And like Birgit, I want to let you know your opinions are valued!!!!The conversation should be broad and open to people without direct expereince too, it is important perspective!
hug Thanks!
~A


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

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Posted:I'll go a bit off-topic with you here, Andrea smile

The reason society sees anger as bad is that it's involved in nearly every kind of violence we see, cause of it or not.

The good sides of anger are, for example, starts of a revolution to change the desolate state a country or system is in, or the adrenaline making you stand up for your friends even when it is against someone who's stronger than you. But there, anger is usually forgotten about next to nice and noble terms like courage, altruism, humanity, morality etc.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted: Written by: FireTom


a) usually an abusive relationship escalates, meaning it didn't start out as such. After someone falls in love with someone, has a relationship - this turns violent after some time for various reasons. Gradually someone slips into that

b) after a partner turns violent in the relationship, it is extremely difficult for the other to break off/ out. Sometimes it's not easy at all to find assistance and help/ understanding from family and friends to get away from the formerly beloveth partner... (even though this to me is almost unimaginable)

c) Especially when children are involved, things get very messy...

c) Fear seems to be a key factor.

Now my question to all of those who have real life, or second hand experience with it AND who would not mind to contribute:

- How can one tell early enough that the relationship is tilting?

- What can one do when facing her/ himself in an abusive relationship?

I would understand if you keep off this topic, but greatly appreciate your input as it might help others to help others - or even themselves...

Thanks hug



firetom many a time u have questioned a lot of this in posts

as for your quote part b in my experience it is not unimaginable that someone cant seek help in people they know, sometimes people dont know anyone anymore as without realising the abuse has been getting stronger especially when mental and emotional abuse comes into it and by the time they realises something isnt right, they have lost all contact of anyone outside the relationship and have no one to turn to
emotional abuse is one of the most un talked about parts of domestic violence but yet is the worst part of it.

emotions should not be messed with and when someone makes you fall in love with them and then starts to use that love against you it can be hard to detect that it is not right. they can make you, without realising think that you dont need anyone but them, make you distance from your friends and family and even move away from everyone you know. then its really hard, then the physical and mental abuse can start to come into it, its like a slow but painful progress and before you know it bam your getting bruises for unknown reasons accept all you know is you did something wrong something they did not like
it can even go as far as sexual abuse

it leaves you cold and emotionaless (sp) not having anywhere to go no one to turn to and you cant even think straight. sometimes you can be adicted to the love you think that you have that you are scared you couldnt survive without them. its a hard situation and so many people suffer at the hands of some sort of abuse without even knowing

and the scars never do heal you just learn a coping method frown


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:hug ...and this leads me directly to the question:

"Where does abuse actually start?"

I mean I was reviewing my own patterns and habits and the way I was acting up in some relationships and how I was acted upon in others...

If we find ourselves in a relationship where we are not respected (whatever that means) and appreciated for who we are, then what are we basically looking for with this partner?

Self-respect? Self-love?

Take the mother of my daughter: I was married at the time I met her and just fell in love with her... like a BANG... On the merge to leave Germany for Australia (sold all my stuff, left my appartment, money in the pocket, time at hand and in my late 20s)... I divorced my wife after 8 years of relationship and found myself in Australia, unhappy because this woman, "the love of my life" was not with me. I was emotionally restrained, couldn't engage someone else...

In the following I buried my life-long dream to migrate to Oz, spent time back in Germany and was unhappy because I still couldn't cope with this country.

Incredible ammounts of time, energy and money were going here... But worse than that, this "love of my life" didn't like me growing my hair, my habits, my friends. Arguments were horror and she even turned violent against me from time to time. I tried to get away (how pathetic and weak that sounds) but she went after me every time, making me stay... What we had in common? Frankly speaking only the way we made love...

I loved her and when she got pregnant (the first time) I was all happy, but she aborted the child for the sake of her career. Only one year later I had to find out that she fell in love with her boss (umm coincidence?) and didn't dare to tell me (after 5 years of relationship)... In all this confusion she even locked me up in her appartment to "finish the argument" and I faced the second nervous breakdown in 6 month (the first and only since)...

The mess went on another 6 horrible months and then she got pregnant again (I know all this sounds so stupid, sorry). But she was subconsciously unhappy and let me feel this like never before. One day she just pushed me over my limits and I turned around. I just knew that she going to terrorise me for the rest of my entire life and that there would be no way that I ever get happy with her. So I left. It sounds easy but the following time was eek On top of my "broken heart" she even stalked me in disbelief that I would really stick to it and I was so f***ed up in this time... Bluargh

Yet she wanted the child and I told her, promised to do my duty, but would not be able to live with her.

Well to cut a long story short, she's now with her boss and he's my daughters dad, she refuses me access to my daughter since 3.5 years (have seen her 5 times in the first 6 months, that's it)... frown I am even refused a test to proove the fatherhood, even though it would have no legal consequences (according to German jurisdiction)...

Sorry - just had to get this off my chest now. Hope I didn't bother anyone...

Basically I have only a few things more to add to this "discussion":

a) love thyself as you love your next

b) if your partner disrespects you - leave! The sooner the better. Don't waste years after years. It might hurt at first, but this is nothing compared to the pain one suffers after "investing" so much, that there is hardly anything left of you.

c) There are 6 billion people on this planet! For sure there is ONE out there who treats you the way you deserve it and makes you truely happy (like you can do vice versa) - don't put up with crap, don't tamper with your heart and mind and don't let anyone else mess with it! When you finally meet "the one", you want your heart and mind still in a shape that s/he can still enjoy it...

d) If your partner abuses you (verbally, with behaviour, or even physically) - draw a line! Make it clear and stick to it! It's maybe the toughest thing you ever did, but how can you look into the mirror every day knowing that you mess with your heart and mind (or let someone else do it for you)?

This is your life and there is nobody else entitled to live it. You have the pristine birthright to get and be happy - there is nobody who can do it for you!

Seek confidence and satisfaction in what you do! And even if it's only planting a flowerseed in the public park. Nobody will notice - but the flower (yeah and the one who picks it then - but well shrug )

See, dani - you're right! Scars never fully heal, but can act as a reminder. Try to find pride in them, because someone who has no scars to display is either an incarnated lucky charm or has not lived life to the fullest... Mistakes are just patterns repeated - anything else is a "learning experience"...

that's it from me now, I can't see the screen clearly anymore... sorry that this gained length... redface


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3999
Posted:hug to you hun hope you are feeling a little better today... if possible.

as for your question "Where does abuse actually start?" i don't think there is an answer that can pin point it. but i would guess that most of it is from child hood. i am not saying the abused turn into the abusers(as i was abused and would never repeat that on my own children) but if its not delt with early on, or not delt with at all then it could do.

FireTom PM on its way


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Pen Draven


Pen Draven

Unofficial Lord Of Confusion And Pirate Extrodinaire
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 1363
Posted:Also abuse,, especially emotional can be very insidious,, so much so that for a long time you either don't notice it or it can feel like its something very different,, sorry if this has already been covered here,, but the last few posts have started to feel a bit relevant to myself is all.

I mean what do you do when it takes the form of someone who really won't let you go,, theres no physical abuse at all but over the years they've managed to build up such a high level of guilt that it makes you feel bad and abusive for wanting to leave yourself. Now I apologise if thats come across as vague (you wouldn't believe how long it took to write that as it was...)

Just wanted to add something on my experiences about 'When it can start' was all


Some men see things and say why....

I Dream of things that never were and say Why Not....?

Oh No I'm going to get Shot Alive if he finds out - DA wink

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:
hug Firetom, thanks for sharing your experience.
grouphug
everybody


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug



Indeed. Thanks Tom...



You said a couple of times in your post that your experiences would 'sound stupid' to us... and you apologise for writing them...



Please don't feel bad about being open.

This community is here to listen, share and support - not judge and criticise...



Your experiences and actions weren't stupid.

You did what you felt you had to at the time - that's all any of us can do...



Everyone here has made (what we would consider to be) mistakes in the past - the question is, how you let those 'mistakes' affect your future.



Once the abused partner has rebuilt their self-esteem and self-confidence (because they do have that strength, even though it's hard work) - they can start to reevaluate the meaning of 'mistake'.



Abusive relationships are a terrible, frightening and haunting experience... but these mistakes can also be thought of as a learning curve.



You will be stronger, and know yourself better, by the time you are really free of it.



My suggestion to those going through a bad place - just keep going. Don't stop to look at the scenery. Keep healing yourself...







As for advance warnings of such relationships - I'm sure there are some... but unfortunately, I'm still too much of a dreamer to see them...


Getting to the other side smile

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Invicta
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

member
Location: chatham kent, Germany

Total posts: 15
Posted:well my ex and I had a very messed up relationship, when sometimes i was too scared to go near her, yes im a guy and a soldier and we are all supposed to be nails but do you know how hard it is for your fiancee to hit you so hard that you see red, and do you know how hard it is to restrain yourself. Well I have had first hand experience and it isnt nice for a bloke like myself to be hit, kicked, and even stabbed and I cant do anything about it because I loved her I didnt want to get anyone (outside services) else involved and but one or twice I have even found it very hard not to hit her back, so I had to leave the relationship because of that reason. At the same time while all this was going on during our long relationship, I was becoming a different person, no-one reconised me anymore, I became more snappy, i enjoyed myself less etc. And thats when you have to leave, when you know that other people (close friends and family) can see the changes in you and normally those changes are for the worse.
And why did I put up with it for three years? well a simple answer I loved her and I wanted to help her, but in all fairness she was violent when I first met her and she did just get worse the only thing is even to this day I dont know why


if the world was peaceful we all will get alot further in life

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks ya all grouphug *now I start sobbing again... gnarf*...

I'm not an ubbangel myself ya know, so I guess I brought it upon myself (for a reason)...

PS: With the question "Where does it start?" I mean not in time, but in "quality".. Does abuse already start when I don't keep my promises, or disregard the needs and personality of my partner (continuously)? Does my partner only "serve" my drive to reproduce and social needs, etc... Does abuse already start when I assume that she would tell me when she doesn't feel like "it" right now, or when I try to "persuade" her into "it"?

I think there is a very thin red line that is actually no line, but a 8 lane highway all across...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:I think I'd go back to the point Andrea made (very well, as always biggrin) on the first page:

"That a healthy person does not act in ways that deliberately hurt another, and that a healthy person does not let other people hurt them repeatedly

But what is healthy?"


Maybe it's just that at certain times in our lives we have all feared being alone so much that we will put ourselves through hell to avoid it.


Getting to the other side smile

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost, Canada

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Firetom, in the examples you give, I would say yes, it does start there. Persuasion/manipulation, can very well be the start of abuse. It may signify that you put your needs aboove someone elses, or that you think they dont know their own needs... We do this all the time, so I am not saying it is evil or anything, just one of those signs to watch out for in our own and other peoples behaviour..

In your search to understand your expereince,and your choices(and others) keep in mind that you are a very complex organism within a complex system! ;-) You may actually do things for many reasons all at once, some kind and altruistic, some manipulative, some egotistic... We all do.

Being honest in how we look at ourselves, and applying the awareness we gain through these expereinces lets us grow as we move thrugh it all...
Again, best of luck!


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Loki_the_trickster
SILVER Member since Feb 2006

Loki_the_trickster

Has sharp edges
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA

Total posts: 1266
Posted:grouphug to everyone
hug hug hug to FireTom nothing you said was stupid and I know exactly how you feel saying it. Thats my point of how its hard for guys to admit they were abused. I'm glad you shared what you went through, we have alot in common it seems.
hug hug hug to Invicta I'm glad you shared your expirience, and I also can relate to your story. Its good to see some men being able to admit to themselves, thier community, and the world for that matter that they were abused and are starting to talk about it. Keep it up gents and together we (men and women alike) can start to heal with eachothers help.
Oh and thank you sooooo much for starting this thread FireTom it has helped me in so many ways. hug


My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...

Total posts: 667
Posted:firetom abuse comes in many shapes sizes and forms it can me minor or major it can be life threatening or the slightest thing but it is still abuse and no body deserves it no matter what they did wrong

im glad your starting to understand a little, as you have questioned ppl on other posts why

its really a hard situation one that is hard to get in to, even harder to deal with in the relationship and even harder than that to get out of.

i live 150 miles from friends and family i have my bf now and my youngest son with me. i had to move away for our safety, some arent as serious some are more serious it takes courage to do so in the first place


loki im glad this thread is helping others


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions

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Loki_the_trickster
SILVER Member since Feb 2006

Loki_the_trickster

Has sharp edges
Location: Stuck in the mire, USA

Total posts: 1266
Posted: Written by: dani_babyboo


loki im glad this thread is helping others



It really really is and I thank all of you who have posted grouphug
it really has helped me in many ways grouphug and I hope its helping you all just as much


My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....

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