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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:-SPACE

-FRAME

-PLANE CREATION



(This thread could not be done, without Rev and his shine on.)



*...........................Hand.

/ ...........................Poi tale.

o...........................Poi head.

|............................Plane.





*************************************

*************************************







SPACE





"There is space made by hand. It is hand plane."

"There is space made by Poi head. It is Poi plane."




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There are two and they have no name. Called wall plane and wheel plane as kind of stance to them.



Code:

| ..... Poi plane.

|

o

/ |

| / |

|/

*

|

|....... Hand plane





*************************************

*************************************



FRAME



"The space where one hand and Poi can spin in."



Weave as we know it, is spinning two different halves of two different weaves. The opposite halves are insides.




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Weave - Spinning outside hand and body. (between hand plane and buzzsaw)




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Inside - Spinning between hand and body. (Hand plane mirror the two halves of weave.)




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Inversion - Spinning with crossed hands in buzzsaw.



Frame - One hand and one Poi space.



Code: o o

\ /

*

/ \

o o





When you copy the frame, buzzsaw appear there, where was only weave before. Buzzsaw connect two frames together.




Non-Https Image Link




Buzzsaw - Spinnig between hands, has same name like Poi plane.





*************************************

*************************************



PLANE CREATION



Lets take two different parallel planes, perpendicular to the ground. Lest say we are inside of them and our body is perpendicular to them and say we are in wheel plane. Lest say we are inside of them and our body is parallel to them and we are in wall plane.



There is only one space to make buttefly or inside. Imagine butterfly and stick your head in moment when the hands cross. The Poi can go in thread the needle(plane overlap) or into inside as the second halve of weave.



Putting it togerther there are four kinds of plane shaping



Wall and wheel plane------------------------------------------Inversion



Buzzsaw ---------------------------------------------------------Framing



Butterfly, Weave-------------------------------------------------Overlap



Horizontal planes------------------------------------------------Rotation





 Written by:





"ROTATION"





0 - Start.

Code: o o

| |

* *






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60 - Trinity






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90 - Atom and box.

Code: o o

| |

* *



180 - Turn.



360 - Skirt and pirouette.









*********************************

*********************************



END





For more about framing look in



Negative space and framing and cyclic deconstructionism within the framework post-modernist poi.



for more about Plane rotation, look in



Atomcraft by [Nx?] and 3D spinning that puts together rest of them.



love and light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:oh I also forgot that the hand plane.. is what we normally call wheelplane or wallplane.. and the planes we weave in are actually the outer or inner planes that frame the plane we claim to be weaving in.. so a wallplane weave is a weave that frames the wallplane... and so forth..

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Oooh, I understood all of that as well.... is this a first?! biggrin

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Rev

I see them as parabolas rather than cones, because I'm treating it as an abstract area... not a poi created one.. whihc is why I like the 'camera in the hand' analogy...



i still don't get how that relates to or suggests a parabolic area?


that last post rocked by the way - anyone who didn't understand advanced plane theory before should be able to figure it all out from this thread smile

hug hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:because a parbola represents an 'opening up' in that direction... and its a 2-D representation of a cone (if you include the slice where the poi spins.. ) Since I was talking in terms of an x,y grid.. I can't very well have a cone can I? lol... I've used cones on a number of occasions as well.. so its not like I'm 'only' using parabolas.. but if you look, we've also been using carats as parabolas in the diagrams the whole time tongue

glad that shiat made sense to peeps.. I hope I didnt muck up too much of richee's stuff.. I still don't necessarily understand it all... but I have, I think, a pretty good idea..


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Deleted......for further purposes.





:R


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:Written by: coleman

that last post rocked by the way - anyone who didn't understand advanced plane theory before should be able to figure it all out from this thread



don't you mean INTERMEDIATE plane theory? nana devil


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Shouldn't you be making videos of all this ADVANCED plane theory instead of making sarcy comments on here arashi? nana ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:meditate poi can be so interesting and look so nice when u just spin it
meditate


peace and light

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin, Ireland

Total posts: 2617
Posted:Yay thanks Alphalight, something sensible I understand.
:high 5:

No seriously I normall get stuff in here, but I don't get this...maybe it lost sense when I copied into word last night...

Tries again.... smile


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:probably did lose a bit in translation to word since I dunno if word holds the ascii coded stuff.. I could be wrong..

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:It'd hold it... but I doubt the fonts will have the same spacings so it'd probably look poor...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Ascii as Poi code is helpfull to image words, you know. This theory is not move, we talk about whole groups of moves and where is their place around body.

Question, what is inversion?

This thread will give you answer. And many more.

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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alphalight
GOLD Member since Jan 2005

alphalight

member
Location: south germany

Total posts: 103
Posted:merci i got my answers for inversion from arashi *

and do u think also about place around ur poi for ur body ?

some people in germany try also to find a notation for poi moves
to be honest myself is really not willing to learn from a paper
i want to learn from my circles

ap


peace and light

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug2 alphalight xx

(and good luck to you guys trying to find a way...)


Getting to the other side smile

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:rev - cheers man.
i didn't understand that you only chose a parabola because it is 'open at one end'.
i thought there was a reason you had specifically chosen this curve over say an open ended triangle (like in the ascii diagrams) and i wanted to understand what that reason was - i get now that it is the idea suggested by the parabola that matters - that any of the space beyond the beginning of the curve can be used until another plane or object is encountered smile

arashi - i'd definitely call this advanced plane theory, simply because there are not very many people that understand it yet.
i don't believe any of us has a 100% understanding of it since with just about all other areas of poi, once a high level of understanding has been reached, there are easy ways to teach it and clear examples that express the theory and imho, we are definitely not there with this stuff yet.
anything beyond this level of plane discussion has to be 'specialised' as far as i see it e.g. planes that intersect at more acute angles (atoms), clean plane break methods and so on.
if you got moves/theory in normal plane orientations that goes beyond this stuff, i don't even want to know what it is until i see ya next! ubbloco tongue wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Yeah I've got loads of stuff to go through before my insides are smooth. Half of which I obviously don't even know about from arashi's descriptions of various types of inside moves ubblol

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:I wasnt thinking about cross-over buzzsaw or inside reels before I imagined planes like that. Sometimes is easier to say inside is spinning between hand and body, but if someone will ask me what is differennt between buzzsaw and inside, what I will say?

:R


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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

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Posted:Buzzsaw is between hand and hand, not hand and body wink
EDITED_BY: spiralx (1140706750)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:You got me smile.

:R


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:that was the whole point of my buzzsaw is not two insides.. though I have to say spiral's answer is much nicer.. Though I know people that treat the arms as body..

anywho.. I think my point involves inside weaves, and richees awesome frames to help make clear.. and I think you, richee, are more than capable of showing them both wink


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Sporky


Sporky

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Location: Glasgow

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Posted:Eeeep... all the techy jiggery pokery in this thread makes my head go


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biggrin


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:I did few modification, to make it more understandable.

light,

:R


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Sporky


Sporky

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Location: Glasgow

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Posted:Thanks Richee. I get most of it now.

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:My head hurts...

So what your sayin is you can do a whole weave in wallplane with this right? Would that be an inversion? I can do the buzzsaw in wallplane, so I guess I could see a weave inversion too... Hmmm...

So could you do an outside-inside-outside-"inside-outside"-outside-inside-outside airwrap with this? Haha! smile

Cheers... Love the thread.


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:You can do whole weave in wall plane, one half is outer weave halve the other is inside, weave between your hand and body(when you bent you back you can get there easier)
Inversion is staing between inside and outside weave, its diffrent., (check 2 examples in the linked thread from me.)

If you consider inside as buzzsaw, than you can, if inside meen inside,
evry outside-inside or inside-outside untangle, so why not smile.

Inside-outside is like,

Left------buzzsaw--------Right
outside-inside-inside-outside

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:I thought I got it. Then I watched some movies. Now I'm confused again.

Ok so I watched the vids from Poi goes punk on inversions. It seems to me that those vids, in reference to everything here, can be used to explain what it is your all on about.

For instance, I understand the 3 beat inversion and can do it. Workin on the five beat, but I already see how it works... my instincts tell me that the 5-beat inversion in "wall plane" is actually a 3-beat weave in wall (or one side wheel) plane... or close to it??

So an inverted weave is a weave in one side of a wheel plane, that must be isolated (a bit) to prevent it tangling as an airwrap or around your hands, yes? Which by itself just opened up a whole new way of spinning for me... so moving on...

What is this framing thing? Am I even close to understanding this here thing?


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:inverted weaves got their 'beats' from the weave that enter from.. so a 3bt inversion is entered from a 3bt weave.. or if you want to think about it like this, you can do 3bts outside the inversion each side.. thus you have two different 5bt inversions.. one of them has the arms twisted like a 5bt weave, and one of them goes through the 5bts but doesnt have the full 5bt twist.. (hence the notation 5bt second degree ad 5bt first degree respectively) the 5bt fist degree is just like the 3bt in terms of how much it twists, so when you do it wallplane it will feel a lot like a 3bt inversion..
remember that when you do inversions in the wallplane you have 4 choices right over or left over or right under or left under.. two of those wll be 5bt first degree, and two are 3bt first degree..

that's probably really confusing, but you have vids, so you'll sort it out..

I can't answer the rest of that because airwrap is a term that means different things to different people.. so I won't touch that.. you don't have to isolate inversions though.. if don't isolate them, they will twist at you wrists, like when you twist any other weave.. if you do an inversion and it tangles, then you did a sloppy isolated inversion.. regular inversions can't tangle at the strings at all..


Richee's thing here is very good about describing what planes mean and how any plane description relates to each other.. the only thing is that the poi and the hands create planes that frame one another.. so when you weave (outside to outside, or outside to inside) those two poiplanes (outside and inside) frame the hand plane... the hand plane is what we understand as wall or wheel plane.. now when you have an inversion, you are spinning the poi in the hand plane.. meaning you are spinning the poi on the axis that the hand represents.. so in the case of a weave, your handplane is an axis that the two poi planes reflect across like a mirror.. however with an inversion, the hands are sepearted.. so instead of two poi planes and one hand plane, you get two hand planes and one poi plane.. and the two hand planes frame the poi plane.. which is the axis ...


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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA

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Posted:* slaps self in head for not realizing the naming convention used * Gotcha.

They don't isolate? What do you call the barrel roll movement then? This move feels exactly like the entrance to a hyperloop, only with the hands isolating around each other to keep the strings from actually hitting. A fully ISOLATED inversion weave I wouldn't think would look too much different than an isolated weave that moves through an isolated buzzsaw between crossovers... rather, the "barrel roll" movement is a sort of mini isolation. Thats how it feels to me when I do the "3-beat inverted weave", and thinking of it like this is how I can see how the "5-beat inverted weave" works so easily.

Ok so (excuse this) a buzzsaw is by definition an inversion, as it is a single poi plane "framed" by two hand planes? Or is framing more complicated in this?

I think I get where you're getting the name inversion now... So what your saying is, where we used to think of everything in a weave pattern as three planes (left, buzzsaw, right) we can now think of it as 5 poi planes (left-left, left-right, buzzsaw, right-left and right-right) with 4 hands planes (one between each of the poi planes?). Thus an inversion would be moving the HANDS in the poi plane and swinging the poi in the original hand planes (an INVERSION of planes...)? Thus requiring the hands to move from (original) poi-plane to poi-plane to facilitate the poi staying in the (original) hand plane? That sound about right?

So FRAMING isn't actually any different way of spinning, only a way of referring to the relationship of these hand-plane positions and poi-plane positions? So (let me get this straight) in a simple weave, the poi planes "FRAME" the single hand-plane (where both of your hands are), but in an INVERTED weave there are TWO hand-planes which "FRAME" the single poi-plane?


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Inversion can insolate or split time, like weave. Barell roll appeared with the isolate one.



Not exactly.

Nope.

2 planes.

I was thinking that yes, but no.

You cant spin in Poi plane.

Part is ,part not ,read below.



Yes. smile



:R



ps: there is discussion in progress, stay tuned.


POI THEO(R)IST

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:ok...



inversions vs isolated inversions.. all the inversions I do are slightly inverted... hence in my hands being seperated a bit... but if you stick your hands (alone) on the right side, liek you would during a weave.. touch your wrists together.. now imagine your hands are the poi string.. keping your wrists touching, roll your hands through the inversion.. that's how an inversion twists at the wrists, like a weave twists at the wrists... just add poi and voila...



the barrel roll is a mini-isolation.. so you are on understanding that right but that's now how the normal inversion is done.. that's just how most of us do it because it flows better..





yes a buzzsaw is an inversion.. its a zero degree inversion..



actually there are 7 planes not 5... see you have the universal frame setup..

plane<->buzz<->plane

and you have one of those on each side

out<->buzz<->in in<->buzz<->out

and if you combine the outside planes together with a buzzsaw between them you get

out<->buzz<->in<->buzz<->in<->buzz<->out





yes again.. inversion means an inversion of planes.. whihc you have there at the end.. instead of two poi planes framing the hands, you have two hands framing the poi..





framing is just a dfferent way to understand the relationship between planes and how they relate to each other and other things..





I'll answer your pm in a bit with more on that.. wink





Edit: these are my understandings.. richee is seeing something different from me that I'm crrently trying to learn.. he doesnt see the buzzsaw as an inversion anymore I dont believe.. so keep that in mind with his answers..



this project has been evolving quite a bit through pms.. so we'll have to see how his view truly ends up emerging.. more grokking is necessary though.. wink

EDITED_BY: Rev (1141090810)


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
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