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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:-SPACE

-FRAME

-PLANE CREATION



(This thread could not be done, without Rev and his shine on.)



*...........................Hand.

/ ...........................Poi tale.

o...........................Poi head.

|............................Plane.





*************************************

*************************************







SPACE





"There is space made by hand. It is hand plane."

"There is space made by Poi head. It is Poi plane."




Non-Https Image Link



Non-Https Image Link




There are two and they have no name. Called wall plane and wheel plane as kind of stance to them.



Code:

| ..... Poi plane.

|

o

/ |

| / |

|/

*

|

|....... Hand plane





*************************************

*************************************



FRAME



"The space where one hand and Poi can spin in."



Weave as we know it, is spinning two different halves of two different weaves. The opposite halves are insides.




Non-Https Image Link




Weave - Spinning outside hand and body. (between hand plane and buzzsaw)




Non-Https Image Link




Inside - Spinning between hand and body. (Hand plane mirror the two halves of weave.)




Non-Https Image Link




Inversion - Spinning with crossed hands in buzzsaw.



Frame - One hand and one Poi space.



Code: o o

\ /

*

/ \

o o





When you copy the frame, buzzsaw appear there, where was only weave before. Buzzsaw connect two frames together.




Non-Https Image Link




Buzzsaw - Spinnig between hands, has same name like Poi plane.





*************************************

*************************************



PLANE CREATION



Lets take two different parallel planes, perpendicular to the ground. Lest say we are inside of them and our body is perpendicular to them and say we are in wheel plane. Lest say we are inside of them and our body is parallel to them and we are in wall plane.



There is only one space to make buttefly or inside. Imagine butterfly and stick your head in moment when the hands cross. The Poi can go in thread the needle(plane overlap) or into inside as the second halve of weave.



Putting it togerther there are four kinds of plane shaping



Wall and wheel plane------------------------------------------Inversion



Buzzsaw ---------------------------------------------------------Framing



Butterfly, Weave-------------------------------------------------Overlap



Horizontal planes------------------------------------------------Rotation





 Written by:





"ROTATION"





0 - Start.

Code: o o

| |

* *






Non-Https Image Link






60 - Trinity






Non-Https Image Link






90 - Atom and box.

Code: o o

| |

* *



180 - Turn.



360 - Skirt and pirouette.









*********************************

*********************************



END





For more about framing look in



Negative space and framing and cyclic deconstructionism within the framework post-modernist poi.



for more about Plane rotation, look in



Atomcraft by [Nx?] and 3D spinning that puts together rest of them.



love and light,



:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:you can go from a reel to an inversion?

what do you mean by reel richee?


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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FireTom


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Posted:YAY for graphic visualisations clap

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

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Posted:oli... my point exactly.. I asked richee the same thing in those pms..

my issue is I don't know what is meant by buzzsaw intersection in terms of a single plane..


"singular > dual (ttn to inversion)............pass"

I don't know what this means.. I think he means going from ttn to an inversion but that doesnt make much sense to me.. I know I can invert a ttn.. so in that sense I go from a ttn to an inverted ttn.. shrug

"dual > singular (reel to buzzsaw)..........pass"
I can go from reel patterns to buzzsw patterns quite easily, since buzzsaw patterns and reel patterns share all the same properties.. a buzzsaw fountain for instance is just an inverted reel pattern.. so this again is going from a reel to an inverted reel like the other is going from a ttn to invertedd ttn.. (as far as I can tell)


"singular > singular (ttn to buzzsaw)...........................faild!
(There have to be cross-over in wheel plane before.)"

since I don't know what he's going for here I don't know why this is important.. as I understand it.. a buzzsaw is just a inverted form of spinning at the sides.. but.. being that its a inversions its always a dual plane relation and not a singular one.. so none of this part makes sense to me..


"dual > dual (reel to inversion).....................................faild!"

this I also don't follow.. for the same reason as above.. since a buzzsaw is an inversion, then going from a reel to an inversions works if you go from reel to buzzsaw.. the only thing that clashes in terms of reels and inversions would be if you take a higher degree inversion.. in whihc case you are trying to make a reel into weave.. wihc of course would need a weave..


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

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Posted:Written by: Richee






hey richee..

again.. I think you are on to somehting.. but I have no f****** clue what it is.. for one there is nothing in that verticla onion slicer thread.. (nothing I noticed at least)

buzzsaw.. like the plane you describe.. doesnt exist... if you take the buzzsaw as only being in the one buzzsaw spot that it is commonly assosiacted with, then yes there is.. but in that place there is no inside.. buzzsaws aren't an inside..

remember the full spectrum of planes:
Code:
| / |buzzsaw| \ |
|outside|buzzsaw|inside| body |inside|buzzsaw|outside|


take any two reflective planes (ie any two planes that you can weave in... they are contrary facing, and away from each other

Outside|inside
inside|outside
outside|outside

in each of these you have a buzzsaw in between... but they are not made of insides..
the buzzsaw made from between and outside and an inisde plane is made of an outside and inside plane overlap.. buzzsaw is always a overlap... the only time you can spin something like a buzzsaw and not have it overlap is when you spin one poi only like a buzzsaw.. in whihc case that poi is effectively spinning inside.. but inside is a relation between one poi and a body.. buzzsaw (being an inversion) is a relationship between two poi.. so having a poi spin inside like a buzzsaw is no more a buzzsaw than having a poi spin outside like a buzzsaw (think any threading from weaves to ttns)
thus, the poi can face inside or outside 'like a buzzsaw..' buzzsaw is not just like an inside, its like both..
a better example would be a corkscrew.. a corkscrew has NO inside planes.. yet.. a corkscrew still has buzzsaws.. because you can still invert the outside plane facings so that instead of facing away from each other, they face towards each other and overlap..

also.. when thinking about how the buzzsaw is different from insides.. think of a weave that goes iniside to inside.. and think of an inverted weave.. both of those weaves work off of the principles of weaving.. and planes facing the eaxact same way... however a inisde to inside weave is completely different from an inverted weave.. whihc provides further evidence that the inversion is not just inisde swings, or inside planes..

now I don't know what implications these have on what you are talking about.. because.. as I said before, I don't follow what you are on about.. its over my head..


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:When you are wheel plane and spin in middle buzzsaw, you are touching borders of two frames.



Code:

| || | |

o (You are here in wheel plane buzzsaw)

| || |



Buzzsaw wheel plane is buzzsaw of next frame.





But what is inversion, if inside is weaving?



Bit about weaving. Imagine weave as two halves on each side where between them is space.



>_____<



I think those two halves are two halves of two different weaves. Like



><__><



In the same frame as in the beginning, you can access inside as a half of weave of next frame(weaving).



<___>



"Barell roll"(full inversion if Im right) is wheel plane of those two weaves.



_|___|_





"Inversion in only one way to show those two,as plane, in real." (this is awesome)



Neither as hand thats is in weave, nor as buzzsaw in wheel. Thats the point, inversion is way "to make exact "circles" in wheel plane or wall plane. When you does just simple two parallel circles at your side, they are not in wheel plane, only the hands. You know and I know smile



Written by:
The plane area is like:

> || < | | > || <



> | < o > | <



> || < | | > || <



__|__ ........represent inversion aka wheel and wall plane

__||__........ buzzsaw as a border.

o............... Its you.

>............... Half of weave, ttn.







Hope you get it,



light,



:R



ps: Vertical onion slicer is old s**** term for buzzsaw weave.

pps:I agree that that is no inside in horizontal.

ppps: Framing smile


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Rev
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Posted:haha nevermind you edited.. lol let me reread...
EDITED_BY: Rev (1139876782)


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:smilewave



:R


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duballstar
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Posted:as usual my head started hurting about halfway down. i find those diagrams really hard to work out without any frame of reference... confused

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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Rev
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Posted:ok..

I think of weaves just like I think of ttns.. I think of ttns has being made of 2 halves.. a normal ttn has both thread halves that face the same way.. I think of a weave as being two halves that face differently.. (whihc explains why a butterfly weave only does half of a ttn each side..) So I understand the prefernce for speaking of everything in halves..

I don't understand this:
"In the same frame as in the beginning, you can access inside as a half of weave of next frame(weaving).

_<__>

"Barell roll"(full inversion if Im right) is wheel plane of those two weaves.

_|___|_ "

I can kinda sorta see how you might think the inverted weave is starting the next weave early while still in the same frame... I think.. are you saying that the weave has this space in the middle.. and that we always spin the poi in the planes of the weave, while our hands actually move in the plane..
Code:
>*< > : weave half, < : weave half, * : where the hands are..

and that inversions make the poi spin in the hand's planar space?!?


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Rev
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Posted:Written by: duballstar

as usual my head started hurting about halfway down. i find those diagrams really hard to work out without any frame of reference... confused

dont worry man... it's killing me too.. but I've talked to richee lots of times about things.. so in the words of Kitcher "there's truth in there trying to get out..." haha and I'm working my best to decipher it... the recent diagrams helkp


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Its ok, I've just want to find what is inversion, inside, buzzsaw and all these "planes" and where they come from, its all.

:R


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:YES.



Code:

Weave

>* *<

Inside

*< >*

Inversion

* *

| |





This is so awesome smile, isnt it.



An together into frame with buzzsaw:

Code:

| || |

>*< >*<

| || |





Its interesting when you copy the "frame" new buzzsaw appear, there where was only inversion before.



:R



ps: thanks for the Poi code.


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

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Posted:Written by: Rev
a corkscrew has NO inside planes.. yet.. a corkscrew still has buzzsaws.. because you can still invert the outside plane facings so that instead of facing away from each other, they face towards each other and overlap..




hmm. try to imagine spinning at your sides in the same direction (reverse for example), then move one hand inside (both thumbs could be facing the same direction, however you want to spin it). now tilt that upward keeping the planes parallel until they're both horizontal (thumbs pointing up). are you telling me that isn't "inside"? at what point does it stop being "inside" exactly? wink granted, you have to assume a slight angle to the shoulders on both sides, but that's essentially how you make insides vertically too, right? =) they're fun. there's even little horizontal thru-wraps. how can there not be an inside there?

Written by:

now I don't know what implications these have on what you are talking about.. because.. as I said before, I don't follow what you are on about.. its over my head..



he definitely said this:

"""
But now,

singular > singular (ttn to buzzsaw)...........................faild!
(There have to be cross-over in wheel plane before.)

dual > dual (reel to inversion).....................................faild!
(There have to be butterfy or weave before.)

this prove that when we spin it allwais goes like:
"Singular > Dual > Singular > Dual"
"""

i dunno. i can force a ttn(bfly)->buzzsaw(weave) pretty easily. and actually, you can turn either ttn into either weave by using either the top or bottom "barrel roll" at the right time.

no reel->inversion?? why not? what do you consider a reel? rolleyes damn. i knew that sounded familiar from somewhere.


and i just saw this! lol!
Written by: rev

Outside|inside
inside|outside
outside|outside

in each of these you have a buzzsaw in between... but they are not made of insides..




omg. inside|inside buzzsaws! instant newbie death! (someone should isolate them) ubbrollsmile

-- dut


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Dut

Ttn > buzzsaw OK, you are right. Reel > Inversion is OK. You need to go very directly into inversion and it takes beats smile

:R


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Dut
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Posted:Written by: Richee

Dut

Ttn > buzzsaw OK, you are right. Reel > Inversion is OK. You need to go very directly into inversion and it takes beats smile

:R



ah! you're only counting it as a reel if it's on opposite sides of your body. that makes total sense, and fits even better with my joke about inside|inside buzzsaw death.

but it shouldn't take extra beats either, unless you want to change the angle drastically. hmm. i think it actually just takes more "barrel rolls" (and a willingness to call facing planes with your body in between "insides") or pulling the whole mess above your shoulders. wink actually, most of the simple breakdowns like these i've seen here don't work under the waist or above the shoulders (or for horizontals, or tangles, or...) no offense, but there are a lot more variables than can map to 2 or even 3D. forget the moves. kill the timing. bend the planes. break the mind of logic. peace.

-- dut


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L0s3r_r@v3r
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Posted:Physics of poi confuses me

You know what I'm thinking about right now? That's right, Tacos!

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Ange_GSC
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

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Posted:wow, this is really confusing. I prefer to just think of things as beats and wrist movements.

missegyptology: "I just remember beingall off balance and unicycling really fast down to campus and the arabic was all blurred on the page"

^When Linz pulls an all nighter before Arabic class^

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:This is indeed some heavy thinking that has has been happpening here!

It's very interesting that some people can break poi down to a notation or reference system that unlocks ideas that would otherwise have remained hidden. I know that at times trying to think about poi in scientific and notatable terms has given me more ideas, but there are other times when it's impossible to think of poi as more than flow.

Good luck with the notation, I'll try and understand it properly when it isn't 1am!


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Rev
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Posted:Dut:

let me start with you.. corks dont have an inside because corksare like a normal weave.. outisde to outside.. there is no body to get in the middle there and create an inside.. arms do not make something inside..



think of it like this.. if you point your arms straight up.. its a corkscrew (windmill really) that can have an outside (out front) and an inside (in front the face).. if you point your arms straight down.. you get a cork (watermill really) and it has outside (out front) and inside (between the legs(body) and arms..)



when we take the cork in its proper form with the arms straight out.. there is no inside.. bottom is an outside.. and top is an outside.. however if we angle the arms slightly up or down we get into a windmill or watermill and do get insides.. so corks are right on the inflection.. and don't have an inside..



keep in mind there is a different between insides, as in the inside plane.. and insides, in the informal talk of a poi being inside the other poi.. inside (the plane) is a relation between one poi and the body.. inside (the informal relation) is a relation of one poi to the other.. these don't highlight the same thing.. and I avoid the informal use where possible..







richee-

that is an interesting way to look at it.. but the thing is that with an inversion you don't weave between those to places. and it doesnt help us classify none woven inversions either..



everywhere you get an inversion you have a buzzsaw.. you don't need those two sides..



the way I see it.. (and this is just my opinion).. the plane facing creaes an area in whihc the poi can spin... for example..

Code:

|||||

>* body



each line | represents a different level (plane) that the poi can spin in.. each of those planes are part of the same plane facing.. think of the first line as being wher the poi spins if your left arm is held out straight arm.. think of the one closest to the body as being where you normall spin a weave.. if I were to ttn in the left sideplane I would alternate between having one of my poi on a line further out, and one poi on a line further in.. changing the planes within the plane facing.. this is hwo threading works.. and is why one poi that is disjuncted (like in an antispin weave) is not any different from any other threading that we do with normal weaves or ttns..)



now think of the same thing for inside

Code:

|||||

*< body



again the plane facing (inside) shows the area that I can spin in.,. as if I hold a camera in the direction, and the camera's view shows the planar area.. I can spin in many different planes within the inside plane.. this is how we can do things like inside ttns..





inversions are when the two facings overlap..

Code:

|||||

*< >*



so the overlap is because the same plane spaces (the lines) that the poi can spin in are part of both plane facings area... a buzzsaw is when these are right next to each other..

Code:

|||||

*< >*

| | <- like these two)



while higher degree inversions are when we get into more complicated patterns of them twisting in on each other



so its not that you spin in the space made by the hands.. (though you can look at it that way) so much as you create a space by taking two positions to their extreme..

norally you have

Code:

||||| |||||

>*< body



but if you pull the inisde hand as far out as it can go

and the outside hand as far in as it can go, you get that overlap..



|||||

*< >*body





and that applies to any reflective plane.. which is why it can be two outside planes.. or an outside and an inside.. or whatever.. the irony is that you cant do it with two insdes (whihc seems VERY counter intuitive..) but since an inside is a relation towards the body, two insides don't make a buzzsaw (like some people think) because at that point, they are no longer inside..because there is no body between them.. no to mention the fact that if you pull tow inside planes passed each other, there is no overlap, only contrary outside plane facings





that's why I don't see the buzzsaw as really being a plane itself.. but rather a space.. and that space is defined purely by the plane facings. for me at least.. but now that I understand your system, I'd be interested iin seeing some of the things you derive from it..


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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:SPACE(up there), my last, that tell everything.



Written by:
Rev

I can kinda sorta see how you might think the inverted weave is starting the next weave early while still in the same frame... I think.. are you saying that the weave has this space in the middle.. and that we always spin the poi in the planes of the weave, while our hands actually move in the plane..

Code:

>*< > : weave half, < : weave half, * : where the hands are..



and that inversions make the poi spin in the hand's planar space?!?







You vere very close here, you were right. (look in frame how it is.)



Example of framing:



Code:

| || | || |

>*< >*x*< >*<

| || | || |





The ''x" meen that where is weave halve, there is its mirror in other frame. But I think frames can be much closer (to overlay insides).

Those |||||| you coded are not existing, because any other plane than hand or Poi plane is framed.



Overlap is not plane overlap, its putting hands over each other in "hand plane". Its rather hand overlap, that meen no plane changing. What change is possition of hands and Poi heads in same two planes.



light,



:R



ps: If this not help I will met you definitely. smile

pps: Anyway I want to.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:richee..



I follow what you are saying.. and its an interesting way to look at it..Tat last diagram helped a lot.. I can't wait to see what you can pull out of it..



but it helps me to think of plane facing like a parabola.. kinda like the little > we've been using.. the parabola opens up to the direction it faces.. I think of the plane that the poi moves in as a slice of that parabola.. so if the parabola opens left > the plane that the poi spins in is a sliver of that, like this |... I know you use a lot of math examples so I'm going to use some more.. think of a parabola that opens left... (eq. x= -(y^2)) the plane the poi spins in would be a sliver of that. (eq. x=1 (note this is not a number that plugs into the previous equation but is an equation itself)) so the equation x=1 woud be a close plane slice out of the parabola, and x=5 would be a sliver that's further out..



the reason I like to think of plane facings like that.. and the planes as slivers like that is because it helps me to keep context with things like isoalted inverted weaves, where the poi can be spiral'd around the other poi arm.. so I can talk about where everything (the poi head, the string, the hand, the wrist, the arm, etc. stands in relation to each of the other components in planar space..



the way I understand your frames, they cannot be used to talk about everything in such a loose individual point by point manner... Which I don't think was your point.. you just wanted to understand 'planes' right? I just like my cluster of relations because it helps me when the vantage of the relations is seen as well.. arbitrary.. frames are a little to static to help me visualize things.. but Im weird like that.. I still think it can be very helpful, and I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people here will like it to once they understand.. I think it is most helpful when you think of a weave that goes:



outside left -> inside left -> inside right -> outside right



especailly if you do that weave out front.. like

Code:

front

Ro->Ri->Li->Lo

body

> * < > * <

back



because then the framing helps clarify.. I think..


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duballstar
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Posted:right... this time i understood everything up to the last two posts and i'm begining to see how this helps (a bit)... biggrin bounce

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:I've edited mistake in prove of concept. What a thing can make one happy. smile To be continue.



light,



:R


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Dedphrog
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Posted:...so much information...brain...leaking out of ears.



that's awsome work man...can't wait to see what fruits it bears. wow


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coleman
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Posted:rev, i can't work out why you are treating those plane facings as parabola?

i see them as cones, with the planes being conic sections (circles or ellipses if you're playing with plane angles i.e. atomics).

great work guys - this explains this stuff far more clearly than it has been before smile


cole. x


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
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Rev
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Posted:I see them as parabolas rather than cones, because I'm treating it as an abstract area... not a poi created one.. whihc is why I like the 'camera in the hand' analogy... as far as I'm concerned this applies to any tool I want to use (like my hands).. it just happens to be a poi in this case..

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arashi

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Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:Written by: rev
also.. when thinking about how the buzzsaw is different from insides.. think of a weave that goes iniside to inside.. and think of an inverted weave.. both of those weaves work off of the principles of weaving.. and planes facing the eaxact same way... however a inisde to inside weave is completely different from an inverted weave.. whihc provides further evidence that the inversion is not just inisde swings, or inside planes..







this is a very important concept to emphasise, as the polarity of inversions is what differentiates inversions from all the insides.



as an intro to the concept of insides i generally emphasise the relation between body position and insides, until they can do some of the basic inside weaves. So i teach that insides are between the arms and the body, and show them the "crossover points up" insides (or inside weaves) but technically a watermill can still be called inside... but it's a grey area. after learning some inside weaves, one can move them around, and one realises the the crossover points and hand positions are what matters, and not the body position, which you stated already in respect to corkscrews.



the real meal is to take a normal newbie wall plane weave, move it slooooowly into an "inside" area of the body, IOW wall plane in front of your torso, and slooooowly change the crossover points of the weave around, moving them 360 degrees: toward the ground (watermill) and toward your face. it's very hard to keep the exact same pattern with the poi, but figuring out how will resolve the differences in weaves for you if you feel adventurous and postulatory. in the pure inside weave position, or the weaves whose crossover points' positions are repeatedly toward your face, you have the most possibilities: the weaves toward your face can change classifications, depending upon where you put your arm during the crossovers. they can be inverted, fully inside, or "insidish" like watermills. or rather, fully inside denotes repeatedly doing inside crossovers as opposed to throwing one in to a weaveonce in a while.





Written by: rev
Code:





||||| |||||



>*< body







but if you pull the inisde hand as far out as it can go



and the outside hand as far in as it can go, you get that overlap..







|||||



*< >*body







and that applies to any reflective plane.. which is why it can be two outside planes.. or an outside and an inside.. or whatever.. the irony is that you cant do it with two insdes (whihc seems VERY counter intuitive..) but since an inside is a relation towards the body, two insides don't make a buzzsaw (like some people think) because at that point, they are no longer inside..because there is no body between them.. no to mention the fact that if you pull tow inside planes passed each other, there is no overlap, only contrary outside plane facings





that's why I don't see the buzzsaw as really being a plane itself.. but rather a space.. and that space is defined purely by the plane facings. for me at least.. but now that I understand your system, I'd be interested iin seeing some of the things you derive from it..







cou;d you clarify this rev? i'm not quite sure what this means but especially i want to see if i follow you about "you can't do it with two insides"

EDITED_BY: arashi (1140477235)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:also, if anyone could, as a continuation of the response to that question, could we have an interpretation of what richee is saying, specifically how it relates to what you are saying about this?

still trying desperately to translate richee and glad you two are grokking each other.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:well.. In that post, I was trying to highlight how inside planes are different from outside planes.. I mean for the most part we take them to be equal right? the inside plane on one side is the same as the far side's outside plane, as far as the relationship between the planes are concerned.. which is why both you and I apparently teach people insides by starting with a wallplane weave, and slowly tighten it up to use insides.. and so the reflective relationship between the planes is what I call contrary away plane facings..



with contrary away plane facings (outside and outside or outside and inside) you can create an inversion by pulling the plane facings past each other so that they overlap.. think about how in a wallplane weave, the poi faces the rear outside.. but as you tighten it up, you pull the poi plane passed the body, so that it now faces front inside... this is because the plane facing now 'overlaps the body' (not the words I want to use but they make the point)... similarly, inversions appear as you pull the plane facings of each poi in a contrary away facing passed each other.. so that they now overlap each other.. so if the right poi is facing outer left and the left poi is facing outer right (I'm going to slightly change notation from last time)..

Code:

---<_R L_>---



you can pull them passed each other (right goes to the right side still facing left and left goes to the left side still facing right) so that they now overlap.. voila inverted space..

Code:

L_>======<_R





This applies to contrary away.. however if you take contrary towards plane facing.. which is what I call an inside and inside relationship... you still get reflective planes, but you get reflective planes of a different sort... these do not create the same type of inversion.. if you invert this type of plane facings, the poi end up facing away from each other.. whihc doesnt create an overlap, and thus no inversion.. at least not the kind we use..



some people tend to think that inversions can be made from two inside plane facings.. which on the surface seems pretty rational.. I mean if I spin the right poi in the right inside plane, and the left poi in the left inside plane.. and I take a step back.. I get a buzzsaw... which is a basic uncrossed inversion... however this is misleading.. since there is no inside there.. not anymore at least.. I like to think of it, like the body creates an invisible wall... so when you stick to insides next to each other, they don't create the 'overlap' that occurs with inversions..

Code:

buzzsaw

L_>===<_R



two insides

L_>--|--<_R





that's why two insides flip between the two sides about the axis.. while an inversion for the most part is spinning on that axis..



so that's why I say buzzsaws aren't made from two inside planes.. which I feel seems counter-intuitive on the surface.. I hope that helps.. I don't really have a good way of describing that kind of relationship yet...





as far as richee's thing.. he's approaching this same thing from a slightly different perspective.. one I think people may understand more than my ramblings.. whereas I talk baout things in freespace, richee talks about framing.. so whereas I call the outside plane a facing that dictates an area, richee talks about the actual poi plane as representing a line.. and that line can be used to set up framed spaces..



inversions are when we spin in the plane of the hand.. think about a wallplane weave.. you have an front outside line, and an rear outside line.. with a hand in the middle.. if you have a wallplane weave with insides, you get an outside line, and an inside line, and a hand in the middle.. if you spin the poi in the plane represented by the hand in either of these weaves, you get an inversion.. its what I call spinning on the axis..

*= hand and the carats represent the poi facing (they open in the direction of the facing)

Code:

wallplane weave

v

* body

^



wallplane weave with insides

v

*

^

body



inside to inside weave

*< body >*



or if we want to represent it slightly different

*< >*

body



this sheds interesting light on the case of an inside weave (inside to inside) since the hands are not in the middle.. the hands are on the outside.. (by outside I mean they are not in between the reflective planes, but rather the hands frame the planes..) which helps show how the inversion of two inside planes is something fundemntally different from the inversions we work with.. because the hand plane no longer represents the axis.. instead you get two hand planes and an axis..



so whereas in contrary away facings the both hands and the axis all share the same line.. ie the *

Code:

> * <



with contrary towards you get two hand planes (the *) and the axis (the |)

Code:

*< | >*





I'll let richee come in and make some corrections.. I understand his method for the most part.. but, there are still a few bits that I'm kinda fuzzy on.. but hopefully what I've put here helps..



edit: oh.. I dunno if this matters, but I think that richee has an inversion framed by the hands, whereas normal spinning is the hands framed by the poi.. inside to inside weaves are when the poi planes frame the axis, and all of that is framed by the hands..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1140487703)


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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:yes biggrin

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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