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skrible
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

skrible

member
Location: moston, manchester

Total posts: 155
Posted:so i was thinking about life and ethics. (my mind tends to wander ALOT) and i started to think about euthanasia
and i was wondering what the general opinon is.

Is it a persons right to choose death if they are terminally ill or is it just wrong?


this apple juice is a bit milky isnt it?!

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I just don't see how you can deny someone the choice as to whether they want to be alive or not.....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:It is their right, and suicide is legal in most places. It gets difficult though when they can't do it on their own anymore. There is a difference between leaving a package of pills next to someone's sick bed on their request, and between feeding them to them.

If it's their own choice I don't think most people (MOST I said...) would find something wrong with it. But there's a very thin line between that, and them being influenced by greedy relatives or overstrained carers, and if they're so terminally ill that they can't take pills on their own anymore or pull out the oxygen cable or whatever, chances are they can be influenced, or killed without their consent.

You can of course have a lawyer there to state it was euthanasia with their consent before doing it, but that doesn't tell you if they were coerced into the consent or not.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well I have strong feelings on this. I do believe that it's your right to choose. And even if you're not terminally ill, but severely disabled, then you should also have that right.

I'll say it right now so it's on the record: if I'm ever paralyzed in any significant part of my body (neck/chest down, etc.) I'll want to die.

I recommend that everyone reading this have a sit and talk with their friends and loved ones about the sort of quality of life that they want and how aggressive they would want medical care to be in an emergency. Even if you're 20 and perfectly healthy you can have this talk. After all, even 20-year-olds can have unfortunate tussles with speeding trucks...


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Yeah, I really had to think that one thru (that'd be the doctors influence, there).

One thing I have to say tho, I think when I'm concious I'd really want to make me decision *then*... but if i'm unconcious and not going to be able to recover enough of my body to effectively interface with a computer or else still be able to walk (say, not having any arms or what have you) then I think I'd rather not go thru it....

but yeah, assisted suicide is way tricky :/ ... i wish there was some way we could deal with the care thing better? but its so hard....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:where is it legal? there's a country somewhere in europe, where euthanasia is ok, i.e. you can ask a doctor to do it.... uhh... but i've forgotten where, maybe the netherlands or switzerland?

i think people should have the right to choose for sure, and it would be much better if there was some legal system to do it, with the presence of a doctor or a lawyer or both, so that "assistants" cannot be accused of murder, although then it would be very official and probably not everyone would like this...


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:oregon, USA.

and it at least was in the netherlands, don't know about now. I *think* maybe sweden as well?


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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weeleigh


weeleigh

look a rainbow!
Location: Waterford, CT

Total posts: 237
Posted:A little off topic, but if you're interested, I highly recommend "Mercy" by Jodi Picoult. (Might be a little too...umm...whatever the book equivalent of a chick-flick is, but I thought it was really interesting.) It's about a police officer who's cousin shows up and confesses to killing his wife who had cancer because she asked him to. Good book. smile Just thought I'd share.

"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth."

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Maybe choice shouldn't be a factor. If we as a society deem that it is in the interest of the greater good that a person should not be alive, then perhaps we should just kill them.

On the other hand, perhaps killing an innocent person is always wrong, even if that innocent person is yourself.

If the moral wrong of killing an innocent person can be trumped by individual wishes, can it also be trumped by group wishes?

Maybe we as humans dont ever have the right to decide to kill a person, no matter how better off we think we will be.

Or maybe we always do, as long as it seems to be a good idea.


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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I think its everyones right to choose, I just couldnt help anyone do it even if they wanted me too, be to hard for me to do.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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squarexbear
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK

Total posts: 585
Posted:its legal in switzerland, there is actually an organisation (cant remember the name) that organises for terminally ill/disabled people to go to switzerland to die. there was some trouble in the UK a year or so ago because a the police threatened to arrest a carer who'd gone with someone and helped them die.

just so we all know - should i be paralysed from the neck down, in pvs etc etc i want to die. my parents already know that and i know in what situation they'd feel the same (the fun conversations we have!).


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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:I think the one thing we can all agree on is that if you decide that your going to kill your family members when they get paralyzed, you should tell them first.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Patriarch: I take issue with your statement that

Written by: Patriarch917

Maybe choice shouldn't be a factor. If we as a society deem that it is in the interest of the greater good that a person should not be alive, then perhaps we should just kill them.




Could you explain that a bit more?

Because the majority are always right? Don't think so. You want to give governments the right to assassinate anyone they want? Maybe if 17 people want me dead then I should die? That's a bit crazy IMO, if that's what you meant.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Well I have strong feelings on this. I do believe that it's your right to choose. And even if you're not terminally ill, but severely disabled, then you should also have that right.

I'll say it right now so it's on the record: if I'm ever paralyzed in any significant part of my body (neck/chest down, etc.) I'll want to die.

I recommend that everyone reading this have a sit and talk with their friends and loved ones about the sort of quality of life that they want and how aggressive they would want medical care to be in an emergency. Even if you're 20 and perfectly healthy you can have this talk. After all, even 20-year-olds can have unfortunate tussles with speeding trucks...



Doc you are so right on this one - how many times have we heard 'it's what he/she would have wanted' from family but how will they know if we don't tell them?

It's not morbid talking about it, as anyone who's dealt with death knows, it's sensible.

My Dad died at 51 from heart surgery after 4 months in intensive care - we knew he didn't want to be buried, prefering cremation, but we didn't know if that intelligent man wanted to stay alive as a virtual vegetable because his brain had been starved of oxygen along the way. The whole family thinks not and, fortunately or unfortunately, we didn't get to choose, but I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to make that decision because I didn't know what his wishes were, only my own preference for him.

So do it - tell your mum, your dad, your brothers and sisters - but think about it carefully before you do, it's oh so easy to be glib when your life isn't about to be taken away from you - never underestimate the will to survive, or indeed your abilty to survive and even thrive on adversity.

hug for all


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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Thistle


Thistle

old hand
Location: Nottingham UK

Total posts: 950
Posted:People keep saying if they're paralysed they want to die. This is the usual knee jerk reaction and it lasts for about 1 year after becoming paralysed. After the initial year the person regains the will to live and starts turning their life around. They find accommodation outside of a medical institution and start living their life again.



I have worked with people with spinal injuries and all of them were of the belief that euthinasia should not be legal or they would have elected to die in the first year. They have gone on to become university lecturers, parents, counsellors, designers amongst other things and the loss of their lives after the accident would have made a double tragedy.



Unless I was cronically brain injured and a burden to all with no quality of life I would adapt and live. I would want see my future grandchildren be born and grow, my niece's first day of school, her graduation day and the sun rise and set each day.



A member of my family comitted suicide because of illness and it created a leagacy of guilt and pain in in those left behind. Think not only of yourselves when making these decisions but also of the people who love you who you wil leave behind.


Are we nearly there yet?

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Patriarch: I take issue with your statement that

Written by: Patriarch917

Maybe choice shouldn't be a factor. If we as a society deem that it is in the interest of the greater good that a person should not be alive, then perhaps we should just kill them.




Could you explain that a bit more?

Because the majority are always right? Don't think so. You want to give governments the right to assassinate anyone they want? Maybe if 17 people want me dead then I should die? That's a bit crazy IMO, if that's what you meant.



It's very simple.

Suicide is the intentional killing of an innocent person. That innocent person happens to be yourself.

The question we face is: Who is able to decide to kill an innocent person, and under what circumstances.

It has often been suggested that someone who is severely injured or sick should have the right to kill themselves.

I see several possible justifications for this, usually involving a mixture of
"it makes me happy and therefore it's morally right" and
"I'm a burden to those around me,
being a burden is bad,
self murder is less bad than being a burden
therefore its morally right to kill myself.

However, a utilitarian justification for murdering yourself generally justifies killing others for the same reason.

The first implies that if it makes you happy, you should be allowed to murder yourself. By this we can infer a principle that happiness is more valuable than the life of an innocent person.

I suggest that the happiness of everyone should outweigh the happiness of an individual. Therefore, we as a group should be allowed to kill any individual, as long as it makes us all happier than the sadness he will experience, which will be none since he will be dead.

Of course, it will be hard to argue that the marginal happiness of a group is greater than the marginal happiness of a healthy, non-depressed person. However, if were talking about letting a family kill a sick person, the choice seems more clear.

Silly? Of course. I doubt many of us actually wish to advocate that morality is subject to the whims of human preference.

Instead, we try to justify self murder by saying I dont want to be a burden. This sounds like a very unselfish argument, as if you are putting the happiness and welfare of others above your own.

On the other hand, if being a burden is really enough to justify self murder, then it should also be enough to justify murdering others. The principle that being a burden is worse than death seems on its face to sound nice, but if we apply it in all circumstances it becomes less appealing.

Certainly, other non-biased individuals such as doctors or judges should be more qualified to judge whether or not caring for someone is burdensome enough to warrant murder. This decision is too important to be left to the people directly involved, they will be too emotionally affected by the situation.

An alternative is to frame the debate in terms of individual rights. This has the advantage of limiting the debate to suicide. One can claim that they have a fundamental right to suicide that does not rely on outside justification.

The question then becomes where does that right come from. The three major theories about where rights come from say that rights come from God, the State, or merely being human.

God and the State are easy, they both tend to publish guidelines on what rights they have granted you. Humanism is more ambiguous, and easier to tinker with.

The challenge is to find a clear way to justify killing yourself that does not also allow me to justify killing you. Im not saying it cant be done. Im just saying that its hard to do.


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pricklyleaf
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1365
Posted:My Mum has MS and its progressed to a stage where now she can do very little for herself, can't walk etc. Her brain, as it were, is fully in tact, MS only affects the coating of teh nerves, meaning that electrical impulses escape before they get to the muscles to tell them what to do.

Anyway, I agree with Thistle compleatly. Until you've been in a similar situation, or someone close to you has been in this situation, you can't really understand or know all the implications.

Despite my Mums disability, we still manage to get her on holiday, even abroad, there are so many things set up that help disabled people, meaning they can still live their lives.

I always think if someone can smile, even if just for a second, they still have something to live for.Even when I was depressed (mainly due to my Mum situation, when she was in hospital), I could still smile occasionly.

I think Euthenasia should be allowed though, but in very strict conditions. For instance, again returning to the point thistle made, if someone becomes physically disabled, there should be a set period where they must see if they can try to adapt or cope with the situation before they make such a huge desicion as euthinasia. Of course it would be incredbly difficult to bound it by criteria such as this, every case is different, there can't really be any sweeping statements.

I think the reason euthinasia is illegal in most countries is partly because it would be so difficult to decide criteria such as this, and all the problems with whether it can be sure the person made the decision themselves. I think that most people beleve that euthinasia is right in at least some cases.


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917


It has often been suggested that someone who is severely injured or sick should have the right to kill themselves.

I see several possible justifications for this, usually involving a mixture of
"it makes me happy and therefore it's morally right" and
"I'm a burden to those around me,
being a burden is bad,
self murder is less bad than being a burden
therefore it’s morally right to kill myself.”

However, a utilitarian justification for murdering yourself generally justifies killing others for the same reason.




My choice to die if severly crippled is nothing to do with being a burden to others.

I think the 'burden' justification comes about because our social upbringing impresses upon us that wishing death is wrong, or that it indicates cowardice.

My choice to die is based purely on the fact that I don't want to be seriously disabled.

In so far as we can own anything in this world, surely we own our bodies and minds and lives?

And, if we want them ended, as far as I'm concerned, the individual whose life/mind/body it is, has the ultimate say.

Written by: Thistle

People keep saying if they're paralysed they want to die. This is the usual knee jerk reaction and it lasts for about 1 year after becoming paralysed. After the initial year the person regains the will to live and starts turning their life around. They find accommodation outside of a medical institution and start living their life again.

I have worked with people with spinal injuries and all of them were of the belief that euthinasia should not be legal or they would have elected to die in the first year. They have gone on to become university lecturers, parents, counsellors, designers amongst other things and the loss of their lives after the accident would have made a double tragedy.





Excellent point.

Nevertheless, i personally don't want to go through that year of hell while adjusting. Also, with no disrespect to those who have gone through it and come to change their minds- it doesn't follow from that that I would come to feel the same.

It's important to make the most of whatever life you find yourself living, and, if I was forced to have to continue living, i guess I would try my best to do that, and may even come to see that it was best I wasn't permitted to die.

Nevertheless, I still believe that I am entitled to that choice.

My feelings are that our society is overly pre-occupied with 'life-at-any-cost', and I think it's wrong.

Other people, young and healthy, with just as much potential for enjoying life, are starving to death through lack of resources, while we in the west impose 'life', with all the attendant costs, on those who do not want it.

I'm not condoning the 'culling' of those who may be seen as a burden, but, if someone wishes it for themselves, then I think they have that right.

I know that there are issues in that (eg, potential family pressure to 'voluntarily choose' death- I just think that that should be dealt with in the way that other controversial issues are (eg abortion is controversial and subject to strict legislation, but it's not outright banned), rather than just by denying the right of an individual to not have to endure a life they do not want.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Thanks a lot Thistle, Holly and Wild Child for sharing your experience!

Wild Child, I agree, to me the main problem is if the brain is at a stage where it's impossible for the person to make the decision themselves, what do you do.

I think that if I could still think and communicate I'd want to live, even if I would probably be a miserable bitch most of the time and feel very sorry for myself. If I couldn't communicate anymore I don't know. I can't say until I'm there, and if I ever get there I won't be able to tell anyone. It's really a catch 22 frown


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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