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T&B
T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol
Member Since: 30th Aug 2003
Total posts: 607
Posted:ok going to post this in the right section now

think this is going to be a half rant half disscusion type of post

rant part:
many staffer today only seem interested in learning contact and not how to spin. This might sound stange coming for me as i generally spends most of my time with a staff rolling over one part of my body or another but I it is important to know how to spin properly a fluidly.

When you spin fire in front of people that don't know much about staff if you go straight into contact they won't have a clue how hard it is and cos it's so hard to keep in plane it just looks wobbly and generally pants. Also you have to hold the staff at some point (well maybe) and if you can't spin fluidly when you do it just makes you look like a really bad spinner.

the other thing is that spinning a staff fast is an art, it's not easy to do well, it look grate when it is done well and if you don't pratice it you'll never be able to do it.

The times I've got best responce from a crowd the burn normally goes abit like: big burn off, 1 min of just nice spinning, next min start teasing them with afew contact move, next 30sec or so do some big fat contact combs then end it with some nice fast spining and afew throws.

right thats the rant over with the disscusion part is carrying on in the same vane. what spinning moves do you like?

i'll start you off with afew

2 beat stuff: thumb end stays in front of you little fingure end behind you, this stuff is grate for looking silly (alway a good thing) eshally by doing lots of turns by shuffulling you feet round in as many tiny step as you can get away with. also twisting your self up with extra spins then staying twisted by going into 2beat spinning

carrying an extra spin over your head: bit of a hard one to explain, basicly from backward figure of 8 when the staff is behind you bring your arm over your head (so your head goes into the space between your arm and the staff) this will give you an extra beat behind you. this looks really nice when done smoothly.


ok am going to shut up now hope this has made sense.
thought and comment welcome.


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt


mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:dance!

biggrin


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted:**offers thought and comment**

wink

fair point dude........ pick up doubles that way you have to learn spinny spinny before you go anywhere biggrin


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:tim - i think its pertinant to point out that you are looking at this very much from the point of view of a performer and many people that learn staff (and poi) are not performers...

if i am a complete newbie and seeing someone doing staff contact is what made me want to learn to play with a staff, why should i have to learn to spin 'normally' to a high level first?

but apart from the rant, the only thing i can do to a respectable level with a stick is 2bt turns.
simian showed me sticky antispin which i like lots too even though i'm crap at it.
and with doubles, i pretty much only ever do 2:1 reels...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


T&B
T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol
Member Since: 30th Aug 2003
Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: mcp

dance!

biggrin



applies to contact non-contact and life in general biggrin

colman- undstand what you're saying and am not going to go round forcing newbes to stop doing contact (although it might be fun try wink) but I don't know many spinner who don't want there spinning to look good.

also just spinning a staff round is fun, to feel like it's an extention to your arm, to see how little energy it takes to make this big lump metal wizz round your head or just to be off your face and wobble around like a idot with a stick in your hand biggrin


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: T&B

am not going to go round forcing newbes to stop doing contact (although it might be fun try wink)



sounds like a fun game to play at play next year... wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:
agree completly

For myself, Im glad i had no idea what contact was before i learn to spin, certain things are just easier to learn when the staff is spinning in a more controlled and droppable, less burny fashion.

Planes are perfect example, the faster you spin, the harder it is to change planes between horizontal and vertical. And the cleaner your planes are, the easier it is to transition between parallel planes with something resembling grace.

Tactile control (ive never needed a name for it before and i thought it sounded cool). Learning how to hold the staff. I've been thinking alot about grips latley and how important they are. It started when i noticed how much i kept saying 'no, hold it like this or put your fingers here, or loosen your grip' and so on, while teaching contact. I think most staffers take grips for granted as the're are very fluid and seem to come intuitivly after a while. Paying attention to how you hold the staff in order to avoid snapping your fingers/wrist off while adding or subtracting beats can help alot

Momentum makes a huge difference when doing contact and spinning is a great way to learn how to control it. Its alot easier to get feedback from your hands than some blind spot on the back of your neck. The two beats t&b is describing above are a great way to learn about momentum.

The difference between spinning, swinging, turning and pushing the staff. Thats how i describe them in my own head and they became apparent to me after i'd spent a bit of time thinking about the first three things above.

So yep, learning to spin before learning to contact gets my vote. And I reckon it can make the difference between getting a nice clean entrance with good timing and a smooth continious exit or wobbling around the place. (dont get me wrong, im a big fan of wobbly out of plane contact in the back yard but it does help to understand the principles before you start giving the middle finger to physics).

Spinny stuff i like:

Figure of eights wink

I love turns, lots and lots of turns, especially while spinning long arm.

Two beats are great and loads of fun (though i think i call them one beats)and have a completly differnt effect on the way a spin looks.


Love is the law.


mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Written by: ado-p

The difference between spinning, swinging, turning and pushing the staff.



I think more people should read this.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:OMG!!!!

I'm not an outcast anymore!!!!!!

*dances*

sorry. I actually made a very breif post on this in someone's thread the other day... I still can't do contact incidentally. Which I have been assuming makes me pants. Maybe it still does.... but....

*feels so very much less alone*

Actually I've been inspired a lot more recently to really actually take spinny stuff somewhere (altho my knee's gone out for a bit so I can't practice as much as I'l like :/) But for about the previous two years I've just felt kinda left out of the loop and just practiced spinning in circles for hours... admittedly thats not quite a routine, but it feels good. If I take time off my left hand still has crap planes, I also discivered the other day taht bulky clothing is no good... thats what i get for trying to practice at 6am....

*is still so happy to hear someone else say this stuff*

I'll post a little more on topic later, after the euphoria wears off...


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:To be honest, contact gets pretty boring sometimes.

I do it far too often. I liked the days when I picked it up and just had a spin. None of the complicated crap. Twas all about the simplicity.

Now all I see is people jumping straight into the matrix, without proper thought to the basics... as a result, you get good contact staffers with little spinny goodnes.... which is boring to watch.

Ah... ikids these days just don't get it wink


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."


yoni
yoni

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bideford and Bath
Member Since: 4th Jun 2005
Total posts: 3099
Posted:i have to admitt i neglected spinnyness allot to start with, mainly cos i had learnt some really basic stuff just spinning and was really addicted to contact, but since doing doubles and seeing really good spinning i have been doing it loads more, the other week i met a staffer who did almost no contact but was amazing at spinning and we managed to show each other so much new stuff.

UCOF "evolution: Poi -> stick -> hoops -> devil stick -> juggling club -> juggling ball -> crayons."

Supergroovalsticprosifunkstication
In other words, it's the thumps bump


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Written by:


T&B



"spinning a staff fast is an art"







Finally it is not. Thats quite easy, contact brings new dimensions.



:R


POI THEO(R)IST


-sandy-
-sandy-

old hand
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 12th Jul 2004
Total posts: 716
Posted:What a great post, i completly agree ubbrollsmile
I spent 18 months just doing basic spinny stuff before anyone showed me contact and it made me understand how plains worked really well.
Which was the perfect start to learning how to break them in lovely move transitioning ways.
Recently ive been trying to go back to my spinny roots a bit to get back a bit more flow, ive been spending too much time on tech moves just doing them over and over till i get them right.
As i have learnt this is all well and good for getting moves down but spend too much time on it and you lose fluidity.
also spinny moves are a good way of recovering if you messed up a flashy contact move and still want to look good.
As for spinny moves i like:
i always start a burn with a few double spins and turns then a bit of forwards to backwards figure 8 then helicopter spins which usually turn into steves or back spins or something.
i also quite like under the leg stuff while dancing round like a loony.


"Don't do it naked!"


Harry_Potter
Harry_Potter

ToadStool Circus Acts
Location: Derbyshire
Member Since: 3rd Oct 2005
Total posts: 181
Posted:I like doing the Can Can while spinning! But i get tierd doing it. I think i probably agree with you in the fact i find contact staffing imensley hard. Im a little noob at staffing and spinning seems easier but i can see its one of those things u have to learn to become good and also fluid. Also i thought that spinning if u can do it well then doesnt it help u in the fact that when ur spinning it over urself doing contact, it helps the fact it doesnt bounce of ur arm or more annoyingly on ur head. It spins much nicer over you?

Yo-yoist, Staffer and 3 Ball and Club Juggling
'Its people like us, who make them feel talentless.'


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:I was spinning a staff for about 6 months before I could do any contact short of genesis/conveyor/ EWWE whatever its called and found it helps me to transition and change planes between contacty stuff (i still can't get contact yet tongue )

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:Written by: Richee

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />

T&B

"spinning a staff fast is an art"




Finally it is not. Thats quite easy, contact brings new dimensions.

:R



richee you can turn anything into an art or art.


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


burningoftheclavey
burningoftheclavey

lurking like a ninja with no camouflage..
Location: over yonder
Member Since: 22nd Jul 2005
Total posts: 926
Posted:it was seeing other people do contact that made me really want to learn staff, but i was purely spinning for about 6 months as well before i attempted contact, and im still pretty bad but love the way it moves. i can still have a burn completely with spinny moves and still love it as well, and learning to spin is important, but with contact theres alot more to learn and it takes alot more time, so it kinda feels like your acheiving more.....

fave spinny moves are under the legs and helicopter whilst lying on my back....


on spam robots - "Burn the robot! Melt him down, and then we can make lots and lots of money from his shiiiny juices!"

Owned by Brenn smile


T&B
T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol
Member Since: 30th Aug 2003
Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: Richee

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />

T&B

"spinning a staff fast is an art"




Finally it is not. Thats quite easy, contact brings new dimensions.

:R



contact does bring a new dimension into staffing but that doesn't mean the rest of staffing is dimensionless.

last night had a couple of burns in the park and didn't do a single contact move and it made me realise just how much I should partice what I preach. forward, front to back extra spins with my left hand are still not fluid enough to do at full speed, 360's on one leg seem to leave me hoirrbly off balance (and that in the direction I like turnning) and my two beat stuff breaks the plane far to much. looks like it no contact for me till I sort out my spinning.

p.s. the burn I had were some of the most fun ones I had for ages smile


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:
I agree. I dont forgot to spin, not only contact.
Try to lear first slowly and that as fast as you like.

ps: Burns happen. smile

:R


POI THEO(R)IST


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:So Im wondering where, and in what chapter of the Oxford staff manual (or Websters for our US friends) does it say people must use staff in a particular way? Though, I wouldd have to admit the thought of only being able to do contact leaves me a bit one dimensional wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:lol if u asked people what contact stafing was around the time of the 'drewandstaff' video, most people woulda shrugged.
come to australia, T&B! we'll love you if you choose to focus on:
-palm spins,
-staff swaps,
-BTL,
-waistwraps,
-acrobatic throws+catches,
-doubles throws, neckwraps,

it's embarassing that that diversity of movements are sometimes referred to simply as non-contact moves.

having said that, i do however appreciate styles like Kyle's organic contact - the staff moves along his body and not the other way around.

personally, contact is currently only a small part of my fire technique, so it's only a small part of each routine. contact is lovely but T & B you're right, balance is a blessing. smile


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:I can't imagine being able to do contact and not spin? confused
it would look either amazing or very boring. variety is always key to good visuals I feel. Spins, Throws AND contact.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:I had a spin yesterday with no contact. It felt... refreshing. Normally, when I pick up a staff, my messing around us dominated by contact.

But because I forced myself into doing it, I realised a few things.

My palm spins had gotten massivley sloppy. I cleaned 'em up. They now look sweet.
I managed to clean up all my planes. Everything now feels much smoother. I can (if I wanted to) go much faster.
I gave everything I could do that wasnt contact my full attention for an hour. And came away very pleased with it all. Everything feels that much smoother smile

Contact, in my eye, is becoming more and more overrated. I'm becoming less impressed by it (unless its done by that ninja dave chap... he just seems to rock). I've always been quite picky about planes. If a person is a contact god, but cant get basic planes down, he ain't got nothing smile


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."


mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:contact is never overrated!

Planes are for girls. ubbrollsmile


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted:Contact .............overated eek

Then try contact with nice planes FRD ubbloco

you got palm spins nailed - whats that if its not contact............ now just do the same move but pretend the back of you neck is now the palm of your hand wink


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."


DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Most of my below talk relates to doubles ubbangel



I am extremely inspired at the moment and it's all down to my new match sticks, spinners like Josh and Bender. Bless the Oz trailer people for the their inspiration. Contact is so not where it's at for me right now.



We had a 2 hour doubles workshop at common ground that was the best workshop (swap meet thingy) I've ever been to for any type of juggling and contact wasn't mentioned once...



I am mad into throws at the moment! Throw combinations are great where done well and acurately (NB!) without stopping to think between each.



I am getting glimpses of things that I've never seen people do right now that are awesome (I don't use that word flipantly) and most of it is "simple spinning" , throw combinations, simple acro, physical fitness and most importantly momentum!!!!



It's like when I watch the poi spinners like Yuka and Meenik and what most impresses me are not technical stuff but how they are linked together so smoothly and accurately because of impecable timing. A double pirouette (not giant) in plane is a good example.



I have seen very, very great contact staffers and still it's not what I aspire to! Contact is not over-rated in difficulty but it can be easily exceeded in audience pleasing in capability.



I am certain that if as much collective effort hadn't gone into contact in the last few years doubles'd be at a heaps (dig my Ozzie lingo) higher level than in currently is...



*Braces for impact* biggrin



It's all good! smile


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:Written by:

DeepSoulSheep

Contact is not over-rated in difficulty but it can be easily exceeded in audience pleasing in capability.




I dont understand it.

You like doubles? smile me too.

:R


POI THEO(R)IST


DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Sorry I mean it's ability to please audiences can be exceeded by non-contact staff with less work...

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:So than we are hard-workers biggrin

:R


POI THEO(R)IST


mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:in term of single staff: Technical spinning may be technical and all (aye simian?) but it's definately not as hard as contact is. But with skill it can look very good. Contact takes more skill to make it look good, cos it's harder, and sometimes uglier.

double staff: technical spinning can be VERY hard. and it can be ugly. Obviously doubles contact can be super hard too, but since usually it's just doing a contact move and spinning the other one in your hand, it's not that hard. But really, there is sooo much you can do with just spinning and manipulation in doubles, I haven't yet really started on doubles contact. I'm still going through the basics. Catch me in a couple of years and I might have a clue about doubles contact.

I don't think people should fight over this, cos really who cares? Just go out and spin some more.... Redirect that arguing energy into positive spinning force! Wait what am I saying? I'm turning into a g'damn HIPPY! <slaps herself>

paraphrased from josh: Go find out what you want out of spinning!
[shooting the breeze on hop probably isn't going to help you there, go spin!]



Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability. - Roy L. Smith

hug


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.


Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:wow, is meg growing up?

tongue

hug

-K


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


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