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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'd like to hear your opinion on rules/laws about carrying knives.

Now, you may think my opinion is a bit extreme, but this is how I grew up:

The first knives I encountered were owned by some of my friends in kindergarten. I wanted one then as well - my mum let me have one until I cut my finger cause this was the only way I'd accept I was too young wink

In primary school, nearly everyone had knives. We used them on school trips to sharpen sticks for roasting food over the fire, and had regular comparing sessions about whose knife had the most extra tools like saws, scissors etc.

In secondary school, it was pretty much the same. I also went to scouts, and of course knives were pretty handy there. When kids from other countries came on an exchange, one of the first things they'd do would be to run into a shop and buy knives and play with them, nearly killing themselves.

Now, my opinion is, if you get used to them early enough and know how to handle them, I can't see why you should be forbidden to carry them. We had them in school, and noone ever got hurt. In my opinion, the problem isn't the knives, it's the people that handle them.

I'm not saying laws over here should be more lax in general, cause obviously even with the laws that exist people get stabbed a lot. But then, if someone wants to kill somebody, they'll do it. With a knife, a gun, a screwdriver, by beating them up, whatever. I think calls for even tighter control are useless - whenever I hear about someone getting stabbed they didn't do it in school where knives are forbidden, but outside at the bus stop etc.

The most extreme case I heard was when I was in Canada, and a 7-y-old boy got expelled for 3 days because his mum had forgotten to defrost his bagel the night before, so she gave him a (normal, not big or extra-sharp) knife to cut it and put the jam on at lunch.

So, while my opinion is pretty much the "guns don't kill people, rappers do" for knives, what do you think?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:Guns were designed to kill people.

Knives weren't, but can be.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:





Written by: Birgit




Now, my opinion is, if you get used to them early enough and know how to handle them, I can't see why you should be forbidden to carry them. We had them in school, and noone ever got hurt. In my opinion, the problem isn't the knives, it's the people that handle them.









Absolutely- unfortunately, there's a lot of people who are not capable of being safe with knives.



I see what you're getting at though- if people were exposed to knives from an early age and taoght to respect them, then that would be good.



However, in situations of out-of-control anger, which will always arise occasionally, there's a big danger that a knive will be used, even if the person is usually responsible.







Written by: Birgit


whenever I hear about someone getting stabbed they didn't do it in school where knives are forbidden, but outside at the bus stop etc.









Do you think that the reason stabbings in schools are rare is precisely because knives are forbidden.



Written by: Birgit


The most extreme case I heard was when I was in Canada, and a 7-y-old boy got expelled for 3 days because his mum had forgotten to defrost his bagel the night before, so she gave him a (normal, not big or extra-sharp) knife to cut it and put the jam on at lunch.





If knives are banned then they shouldn't be brought into school- the bans don't generally specify 'big or extra sharp knives'- it's all knives.



In the unlikly scenario that schools become demonstrably free of all bullying and violence, then maybe I'd be happy about them allowing knives; till then though, I'd say forbidding them is good.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:Birgit i think a lot of what you said could be applied to guns



the point is that if its there the temptation is there and when someone is very angry they will happily use anything they can to hurt someone



also they'er not much good for self defence. if you get mugged or similar then having a knife will likely only make the other person draw a knife - which they are probably better with than you.



in a perfect world the rules wouldnt be needed but i think that letting people carry knives is too much of a risk. ok if your camping or something carry a small pen knife



but thats the only time you really need it anyway


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:being an (almost) tradesman, to me, a knife is a tool. like a screwdriver, or a pair of pliers, or a multimeter. All can be used to hurt/kill people, but all are needed. Me, i carry a combination stanley knife, which has a razor sharp blade on one end, thats about 3/4 of an inch long and roughly triangular, and a 2"ish blade, half serrated, on the other. Either could be used to harm, quite effectively, and i've nearly cut myself with it stripping cables a number of times.

I think it just comes down to responsible use. As you said, if someone wants to kill, they'll do it.

If you were to ban all knives, a lot of things would become a lot harder. would the world become safer? i don't know, but i doubt it.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

However, in situations of out-of-control anger, which will always arise occasionally, there's a big danger that a knive will be used, even if the person is usually responsible.




How come it's so different between cultures/countries? When people at my school were angry they had a "normal" fight, with their knives staying in their pockets, because they could tell the difference between a fight and murder. Here it seems they can't shrug


Written by: onewheeldave

Do you think that the reason stabbings in schools are rare is precisely because knives are forbidden.




No, I don't. Most people wouldn't get them out in the classroom. IMO, they think they have a higher chance of getting away at a bus stop or on the playground etc. Knives are forbidden on the streets, too, and they still have them, so obviously the forbidding them alone doesn't help if someone has murder in mind.


Written by: onewheeldave

If knives are banned then they shouldn't be brought into school- the bans don't generally specify 'big or extra sharp knives'- it's all knives.

In the unlikly scenario that schools become demonstrably free of all bullying and violence, then maybe I'd be happy about them allowing knives; till then though, I'd say forbidding them is good.

shrug shrug

A 7-y-old making a sandwich... well. In his hands, the knife would NOT be more dangerous than a biro, let's say, in the hands of a 16-y-old. I wouldn't have minded if he'd got told off or got a detention, but they overdid it imo. Laws and regulations to me only make sense if the people that enforce and interpret them try and be sensible about it, and saying what you said about all knives isn't too sensible in that specific situation. The teacher who saw the knife could've taken it off the kid, made the sandwich for him and kept it so that noone could do any harm with it. That would've been sensible.

I'm not saying knives can't be used for violence. I'm just saying I get a bit upset at the "knives are evil" calls from parents etc every time something happens, because obviously there's something else wrong with society if 14-y-olds kill each other over a mobile phone.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:I have a knife in my fire gear just as a precautionary measure as I never know what might happen and when I might need it. Anyway, I went to perform at my little sisters school the other day and had to check it in at the office. Surely the most dangerous thing I had would be the old lighter + kero combination? To me the anti knife policy is madness, they may as well have an anti fist policy too as almost every fight I ever saw at that school was a fist fight and the only one that had a weapon involved was a pool cue.

When I was at the same high school (all of a year ago) I used to carry a Swiss Army knife all the time, and still do. The difference between me and the regular thug is that I've had both martial arts and army CQC training which surely makes me, as a person who carries a knife regularly, more dangerous with such a weapon. The truth is; it doesn't. I have always been taught that once any weapon has been drawn the level of violence increaces to a point where it is best to run with one exception... the gun.

I also collect knives and swords as some of them are beautiful objects, especially Japanese swords and some fantasy knives (my latest purchase are the knives used by Riddick in the films). Every display knife or sword is kept blunt and, not including kitchen knives and domestic blades, there are only 10 sharp blades in the house; one Chen Japanese sword set (katana, wakizashi and tanto), six throwing knives (strapped to the bottom of my bed) and my hunting knife.

Onewheeldave and brigit: I was taught to respect knives as a practical tool and to take care of them as such (sharpen and oil them after every use etc. etc.) from about the age of four. My dad and I used to go out camping, hillwalking and rock climbing regularly and in a tight spot you knife can save your life. I am, however, talking about proper hunting and survival knives and not your switchblade/locking knives which, in my view, are purely designed as weapons and should be treated as such.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: OneFinalStep

I am, however, talking about proper hunting and survival knives and not your switchblade/locking knives which, in my view, are purely designed as weapons and should be treated as such.



The swiss army knives I mentioned were designed as weapons? Surely they would have a longer blade and not so much other stuff...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:You can kill someone with a blade less than one inch long if you aim for the neck, femoral artery or heart.

I personally class Swiss Army Knives as a survival knife as they are useful in other areas too and aren't designed to be used as weapons in the same way that a switchblade is. When I go camping, for example, I don't carry a mobile phone but carry my hunting knife, my Swiss Army and a basic first aid and suture kit. The Swiss Army cuts down on the number of other tools that are needed (screwdrivers, scissors, tweezers) that would otherwise take up space in a rucksack. There have been occasions where I have used the swiss army over my larger hunting knife, ie cutting fishing lines or gutting a fish, that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing with a larger knife.

Oh, and the the correct name for a Swiss Army Knife is a Victorinox knife. It was renamed after the American army thought that its soldiers would be unable to pronounce "Victorinox".


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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:In Schools, not only 'dangerous' articles are banned, but many things that the child has no reason to have in school (ie should not need to use in school) like handheld computer games. What would a child *need* a knife like a victorinox knife for in school? When a class (such as art, science or technology) require use of a knife like a craft knife or scalpel, these are provided by the school, the children are taught to use them appropriately and the knives are collected back at the end of the lesson. There is no reason a child should need the knife outside of the class.

I definitely agree that learning to use and repect knives as tools is a necessary thing, but perhaps parents should take a greater responsibility regarding types of knives not used in school like hunting/ swiss army knives, or enrol the child in an organisation like the scouts, where in camping etc. use of such a knife is appropriate.


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Spiral


Spiral

Oolering Man
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire

Total posts: 729
Posted:does anyone remember a case here in the UK, where a boy was stabbed through the heart, in a corridor outside his classroom and died? Now knives were banned in that school but it didn't stop it happeing....... I think the key here is premeditation........ yes if everybody carried knives you would get a higher case of knives being used in the out of control anger and spur of the moment crimes..... but at the same time I don't think it would really effect the premeditated type of crime..... after all everyone has a rather variable arsenal of very large and very sharp knives in their own kitchen.

I think making any sort of weapon easier to get, would just result in those people who wanted to hurt people having an easier time of doing it, and being mor lenient on allowing people to carry knives, etc, would increase the acts of anger/passion crimes. I think it has more to do with peoples predisposition than the actual objects themselves.


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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:What the hell are you gonna need a knife for in school? History? Geography? English? Music?

Theres a time and place for knives, schools aint one of them.


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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:I once heard that there was a petition to ban pointed knives. Tell, me, when cutting a slice of bread, hacking into your gammon, or just simply buttering your toast, what is the need of the point?


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Posted:Knives can be used to kill, yeah fair enough.
If anybody is crazy enough to kill does it really matter if they have a knife or not?
If somebody wants to kill, a glass bottle or a stick will be just as deadly as a knife.


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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:you use the point for cutting things like tomatoes - its useful for starting the cut - no matter how shart the knife is its an easier cut once the blade is inside tongue can you imagine trying to fillet a fish with out a point?

i think the problem is that while 99.9% of people can be trust with a knife

if you make them available that .1% of people (and thats a LOT of people) will use them in a fight or to threaten someone

imagine in a school most of the kids will be fine and if they have to fight use fists. but there is always the tough kid or bully who will draw a knife. if all the kids have knives the instant responce is to draw theirs.. now if they fight its with knives.

when i was at school a kid was expelled for threatening others with a knife - this was primary school for 4 to 11 year olds

not being degrading but kids often will not release the full consiquence of their actions. damilola tailor was killed because the kids that stabbed him thought it was safe to go for the legs - they hit the femoral artery which, with out very early medical responce will kill.

there is no reason for people to carry knives (unless camping etc) so why should they?


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Right. To get this straight, cause you all seem to be getting the wrong idea frown

Written by: Birgit

I'm not saying laws over here should be more lax in general, cause obviously even with the laws that exist people get stabbed a lot. But then, if someone wants to kill somebody, they'll do it.



I never said "allow knives back in school" - with the way people act and the number of mini-chavs at the average school I realise that would be a problem. While I personally didn't have problems with that, I do realise that there are places/societies where you can't have it.

But talking about stuff you don't need at school isn't anything to do with it - which kid NEEDS a mobile phone when the parents have the school secretary's number?

I've talked to some of my friends here, and they said that even in girl guides they didn't use knives because they were considered too dangerous. And they never made school trips into forests and built a fire and roasted stuff on sticks either... so if that's typical for Britain I might agree that there's no point in knives, though I myself have found myself in lots of situations where having a swiss army knife was very handy... but nevermind.

I just get upset everytime something happens with a knife (or screwdriver at that...) and people call for law enforcement instead of calling for spending more efforts on children that bully or that are bullied... in most cases other kids later say "yeah, we all knew A hated B" or something like it... but I repeat myself so I'll shut up now smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think it's very much to do with the culture in Scotland right now. There are a lot of people around at the moment who cannot behave and who glorify drinking and violence. Quite frankly I wouldn't trust them with a piece of string let alone a knife. It sound like things are a lot better in Germany so it's probably alright to have more lienient laws there. But there's still a long way to go in this country before the bulk of the populace is resonsible enough to be allowed to carry knives around.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

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Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

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Posted:Written by: linden rathen

you use the point for cutting things like tomatoes - its useful for starting the cut - no matter how shart the knife is its an easier cut once the blade is inside tongue can you imagine trying to fillet a fish with out a point?




Never tried filleting a fish, so ... *shrugs*


... but I know you can cut a tomato without the need of a point!


Willy - is bad for your health...

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:Wouldn't the tomatoe just become squished?



Points are important! Otherwise physics wouldn't have invented them wink

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jinvincible
GOLD Member since Nov 2004

jinvincible

king of the hedgehogs
Location: Madtown

Total posts: 125
Posted:We live in a fear-based society.

There's a problem with violence? Clamp down on rights!
Kids (or "Terrorists") use <object> to <act violently>? Ban all types of <object>.

It's pointless (pun not intended) and reactionary, and not very effective. Education on safe operation is the key, not arbitrary prohibition.

A knife is a tool, plain and simple, yadda yadda yadda.


Yellow and blue make green.

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Written by: Lemonkey

Written by: linden rathen

you use the point for cutting things like tomatoes - its useful for starting the cut - no matter how shart the knife is its an easier cut once the blade is inside tongue can you imagine trying to fillet a fish with out a point?




Never tried filleting a fish, so ... *shrugs*


... but I know you can cut a tomato without the need of a point!



Well if the tomatoe is very fresh and still firm then the point isnt allways needed, but if its a few days old pressing down on the tomatoe with a larger surface area (the knife blade of course) will make the tomatoe squash, for chefs that means the tomoatoe has to be thrown away if its bad enough couse you cant serve up food thats not perfect in a good kitchen, and a good chef wont even cook it if he damaged the food before hand too much.

Knife points are used to pierce food and make cutting much easyer. Its safer too because sticking the point in food means the blade shouldnt slip off certain types of food and cut your fingers.

Back to the issue with knives, I think that laxing laws is the worst thing you can do to help situation, weather its knives or canabus, or drugs, or guns. Makeing anything easyer to get hold of means more people will get hold of them, and you increase the risk of the wrong people getting hold of them.

What needs to be done is first of all the public needs to be educated on certain issues, and this then has to be combined with stricter laws on getting whatever your talking about, drugs, gun, knives, whatever.

So you make public awareness more widespread and combined with makeing it even more difficult to get hold of things (in this case knives) means that only the commited responsible people who NEED them for things (not just to make the chavs look cool) can/will bother to get hold of them.


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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:jinvincible - i dont believe that argument works in erality

yes if people want to carry knives around its hard to stop them **but** it makes it more obvious

if you said people can carry guns what happens? people carry guns because the bad people have them

guess where this happens? the US - guess which country has some of the highest incidence of gun crime the US

yes you should educate people of the dangers of a tool

but only people who use it need to carry it

and brigit i know what you mean it is depressing to hear after incidents like that that it was well known

unfortunatly its so hard to guesshow it will escalate - especailly with children or young people as hormons (whether you like it or not) will drive emotions sky high


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Points are where the maximum force can be applied with the least effort, ergo it makes sense that knives posess them. It just makes things easier.

Besides, only crazy people stab others with the points of knives. Anyone who knows how to fight will tell you to slash... biggrin (Moot discussion)

I think that maybe if you relaxed the laws, then there would be a spike in activity (be it Cannabis, Knives, whatever) before it simply plateaus again. People will realise (after the initial excitement wears off) that knives are NOT cool (e.g. after they've been stabbed, or one of their friend's has) and neither are drugs (After they get arrested/become addicted/become skint). Maybe the long term benefits will outweigh the immediate disadvantages. But then I've given up trying to predict societies behaviour... wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 6942
Posted:Written by: sethis

But then I've given up trying to predict societies behaviour...




amen to that tongue

i think it would plateau but i think there would still be more crime - certainly in cities where people already carry knives - if it was legal more people would and i cant see how that can be good


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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:Pfft, just slam the knife down the tomato, that'll cut straight through!

(stop defending pointed knives frown)


Willy - is bad for your health...

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:What's the problem with pointed knives? I mean, surely people are sensible enough to realise that the point is dangerous? Or is it approaching the level of sueing because you fell over in some shop's doorway?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:One problem with pointed knives is that they can be used to stab people, so they tend to get used in domestic violence that kicks off in kitchens.

For the majority of food preparation, pointed knives are not necessary; you can do just as well with a variety of non-pointed knives, plus one specialist pointed knife.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Lol it wont though, it will ruin youre tomoatoe! STAAAAAB THEM!

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Adya Miriyana
GOLD Member since Feb 2005

Adya Miriyana

*slou?
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 6554
Posted:mm.. need one of those magic slicers that are all the rage on home shopping shows currently rolleyes

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I use knifepoints a lot. I'd be quite unhappy without them. But it's only about 2 years till my PhD is finished, then I can go back to the country of no-worries-about-knifepoints wink

That's nearly as bad as discussing to take king sized chocolate bars out of shops because noone actually needs a king-sized chocolate bar and it's unhealthy... shops would be empty if all unnecessary unhealthy things were taken out. But at least it would mean people would start cooking again instead of buying ready meals. Then they would also realise the usefulness of knifepoints methinks. ubblol


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:Written by: Sethis

What's the problem with pointed knives? I mean, surely people are sensible enough to realise that the point is dangerous? Or is it approaching the level of sueing because you fell over in some shop's doorway?



As Dave said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4581871.stm


Willy - is bad for your health...

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