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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Didn't want to add to the other Katrina thread as this is a bit of an extended side issue...

We're seeing a LOT of criticism of the Bush administration at the moment. His popularity rating in the US is at an all time low (something around 33%) and I have yet to see anything he's said or done which can alleviate this.

Katrina has raised so many issues for him - the national/home guard being depleted due to Iraq, him going on a fundraiser 2 days after Katrina (He visited N.O 5 days after...), lack of funds available for relief, slowness of response (in many peoples eyes due to the ethnography of the city), diverting funds away from disaster relief/prevention for 4 consecutive years etc etc.

Perhaps this is wishful thinking - but could his (and his govenerments) shocking treatment of this disaster be enough to un-seat him?

Some abstract thoughts: -
~ It's always seemed Bush is popular with the strict Christian population. By all means, in their eyes this is an act of God - directly in response to his war?
~ Post 9/11 it was deemed un-patriotic to criticise the Government over it's handling of that disaster (leading up to and aftermath), yet this one has been pretty much no-holes-barred against him - surely a sign of his ever decreasing popularity? In such a media driven country, if all the news channels are saying the same thing, this can't do anything but scupper his supporters even more.

Maybe it won't be an immediate thing - but I really wouldn't be at all surprised if his 4-year terms is cut dramatically short.


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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

veteran
Location: Lancs England

Total posts: 1453
Posted:i think that it wont have much of an efect by the time it comes round to the next election most voters will have forgoten what happend to an extent . peiople dont forget as such it just dosent seem so important a year down the line.

take a look at the blair war thing if we had an election roud the time just befor the war he would have never got in a few monthes down the line people seem to have forgoten they hated him


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:But do you not think this mounting displeasure with him could bring about an premature end to an office - a kind of Bush Watergate/Lewenski affair?

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Socks
BRONZE Member since Nov 2004

Socks

Arf! Can I have a biscut?
Location: North America, Mid West

Total posts: 288
Posted:If the american people think he's incompitent, or risking our country, they'll do what they can to get him out.

That being said, I placed my vote knowing that Americans are also apathetic by nature, and will do the least they need to when pressed.


I'm weird. Just work through that and we'll all be fine.

"If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater suggest that he wear a tail." - Fran Lebowitz

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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

veteran
Location: Lancs England

Total posts: 1453
Posted:nah people are stupid in general

if you have a cold you long for the wonderful feeling of breathing without blockage and would do anything to breath normally as soon as its gone you totally forget how badly you felt and dont appreciate how good it is to breath

(I have a cold at the min ugh)

another good way of looking at it would be drinking you have a hang over and claim you will never drink again but once that hangover is gone you are happy to drink again sometimes the hangover lasts a few days and you do stay away from the drink but eventually you still go back. If you got the hangover before you drank nobody would drink.


During election politicians seem your best friends afterward it hangover time till the next election


A startling fact is that if it is a nice sunny day on election day the party in power stands a much greater chance of getting back into power as people go eh its not all that bad is it but if its a cold wet day they are like ugh bloody country bloody government


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:a kind of Bush Watergate/Lewenski affair?

The lewinsky affair didn't end Clinton's presidency. Despite the scathing rantings of the religious right most polls showed that the american public wasn't all that bothered about the president getting blown, they thought he was doing a pretty good job.

Watergate was a bit different, and it did cause Nixon's resignation, but only because it was demonstrated that he was complicit in illegal activity, which he was exonerated from as soon as his successor Gerald Ford took office.

As far as I'm aware no one's accused Bush of doing anything illegal in regards to Katrina... Merely that the response was inadequate, possibly due to incompetancy in senior government positions. Which would continue the administration's proud record of being the only administration in US history to have less jobs in the country after a term than when taking office, to have created a world record balance of payments deficit, the handling of Iraq, the dismissal of intelligence before 9-11 warning that Al Qaeda were about to attack the US using aeroplanes as bombs etc etc etc

I just don't see why this latest balls up's going to be any different.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Written by: dream


The lewinsky affair didn't end Clinton's presidency. Despite the scathing rantings of the religious right most polls showed that the american public wasn't all that bothered about the president getting blown, they thought he was doing a pretty good job.







But don't you think it was this that brought about his downfall at the time - directly or indirectly? Again I think the media took hold of this and really exerted an influence... But then I'm not American and so don't really know what it was like over there smile



I wasn't being literal (in the Watergate sense) - just suggesting events that seem to have ended presidencies smile


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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:But don't you think it was this that brought about his downfall at the time

no...

it was Clinton's second term so he couldn't stand for president again anyways, but when he left office (and even today... notice the way that Kerry begged Clinton to publicly support him even though he was recovering from heart surgery) he was and is hugely popular. The right wing media allied with the religious right (basically powerful groups who are staunch republicans) tried to turn it into an event which would bring Clinton down, but they failed, people still liked him and didn't think it affected his ability to lead the country.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Julie2022


Julie2022

member
Location: Little Rock, AR

Total posts: 145
Posted:All that I will say is he'll be out in 3 years - and everyone, then, will vot democrat because they're tired of geting the royal-republican screwover.

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:if americans are idiotic enough to vote Bush back in after the Iraq scandal, a hurricane isnt going to make a shred of difference.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Wow, all this optimism.....

Nice to see it, I suppose...

I'm not sure that many people belive the hurricane was an act of god one way or another, I just don't know. But on the others...

No, I don't think bush will get kicked out of office early. I don't think he'll be held particuarly accountable. I have yet to even belive he'll leave in three years. I can only hope. Cerntainly I, like many both at home and overseas belive little will change even if George himself leaves, but I'm honestly not that convinced it will come to pass.

I was asked for my opinion, and this is it. I won't try and defend it.

So call me a pessimist, but thats my two cents.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Written by: jo_rhymes

if americans are idiotic enough to vote Bush back in after the Iraq scandal, a hurricane isnt going to make a shred of difference.



Not all of us voted Bush?

kkplzthanksbai.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:democracy - the principle that if 4 out of 5 people want to have sex, and one doesn't, its not rape.

offtopic

somehow, i don't think that the response/lack therof would cause an outsing of GWB. Chances are, that's all been handled by a senior staffer anyway, someone that specialises in the logistics etc of this sort of siuation. really, honestly, i don't think the average president knows how many sandbags it takes to stop a house being flooded. 'Why not?' i hear you ask - they don't need to. they employ people that do.

So, while indeed, his policies may or may not have contributed to the lack of response, it seems rather unlikely that his incompetency would have much to do with any of it. Instead, chances are he signed a bit of paper saying that helping the place out would be a good idea, and did some press conferences showing that he was helping them out, because nobody sees the bit of paper.

At the end of the day, it's not a job i envy. you're in control of a nation, and if any one of the hundred, if not more, people that manage that nation screw up, you get most of the western world saying how bad you are. I doubt i could do it better than he is, so i won't complain too much.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:"I'm not sure that many people belive the hurricane was an act of god one way or another"

umm

What else was it an act of?
Saddam? Bin Laden? Terrorists?


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I was thinking forces of nature, you know, science and the universe, that stuff we americans arn't supposed to belive in? tongue

please everyone i'm joking, stereotypes... just because it was such a funny question....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: University Can Offer Future

"I'm not sure that many people belive the hurricane was an act of god one way or another"

umm

What else was it an act of?
Saddam? Bin Laden? Terrorists?



There is an ultra liberal standpoint that says that "Overuse of petrolium products bu things like large corpirations and SUVs causes global warming which in turn leads to warmer oceans which leads to more powerful hurricanes... therefore Bush CAUSED the hurricane."

But that's another story...
****

And you people are forgetting... these are POOR BLACK people dying. Nobody cares. My country is very comfortable seeing images of poor black suffering. My country was founded upon continues to be run very comfortably with the suffering of poor black people. The ultra liberals get all cranky for a while but since they don't vote because they 'don't want to buy into the system' it doesn't matter. Bush will be just fine like he always is.

If you want to root against Bush, root that gas prices take him down.

Because there's a large portion of American that would rather see RIVERS full of poor dead black people than a $5 gallon of gas.

[Can I get a AM-EN?!]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Unfortunately, Mr NYC is completely right.

And the gas prices have already started dropping.

The poor south will have to find its own way home.

And we arn't supposed to "play politics" about this, in any event, everyone keeps saying... nevermind that bush was partying in san diego monday, didn't come back until wednesday....

david craig simpson (www.idrewthis.org) has a good response to that line...

forget bush getting kicked out, at this point i think they;ll stop criticizing him by next week........


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Stick Man
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

Stick Man

member
Location: Nh

Total posts: 37
Posted:Bush has 3 years and then he's gotta leave. Katrina won't dethrone him. Any blame for slow responce time or lack of empathy will be passed on to other people in the government.

I don't think even Ultra Liberals can say, "Bush caused global warming and there for the Katrina" and expect anyone any sane person to ever listen to them again. Global warming is a long process. It has been getting worse for hundreds of years. Sure Bush has done his fair share to make it worse. But even if Bush, along with every other country on earth tried as hard as they could to stop global warming, I bet it would be at LEAST 25 years before we saw a significant change.

[Governments are corrupt. They need to be so they dont get screwed over by other corrupt governments. That and because they want money. Some governments are just worse at keeping their dirty little secrets, secret. A president cant break the law unless he gets caught. And even then its a grey area. I only have a problem with this corruption (that is everywhere) when it is used for personal gain and not for the good of the people] offtopic


I ain't been around the world, but I've been around the block. I ain't seen everything, but I've seen enough to talk. I'm not a prophet, I'm not the 2nd comming of christ. I'm just a mason with a will to build and a little advice.

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Julie2022


Julie2022

member
Location: Little Rock, AR

Total posts: 145
Posted:Written by: some people still think like that, however, those people aren't in any political office or do much good for their community anyway.

2: Racism is a dying ideal, I think that would be obvious considering that the "black" world is heavily influencing the media, music and the average way of life. Or, the people who feel that way are old and dying and in 20 years, they'll all be buried.



I'd rather spend $10.00/gallon on a freaking gallon of gas than see anyone die for anything. Good god, I might be seen as a bit stuck up or ignorant of worldly issues but I'm not evil.



*edit - I got a bit snippy with an off topic issues, deleted*.



And, furthering the gas issue - I'll just post what someone else wrote on a different forum:



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by: Azron
I spent a year running/owning my own gas station and have worked for years in the industry. How gas pricing actually works is crude oil is sent to the refinery, then as fuel to the distributors. Non-branded stores are allowed to select their own pricing but all branded stores have to charge what they're told. When a price increase happens at the refinery, it takes roughly six months for that price of oil to reach the gas stations because they're selling from the refinery what they had before it went up per barrel. We have not seen the actual price damage from the hurricane yet. We lost over a million gallons of crude oil per day that the gulf refineries were shut down. The reason gas prices are jumping as they are is from four years ago when the war started, not because we get so much oil from thembut because demand has gone up here because of so much fuel being shipped back over there. Prices for fuel will continue to rise throughout the summer, will drop in the winter, and likely double next summer. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Second note, most non-branded stores have cheaper gas because they're only paying the distributors. They don't have a pre-set pricing, whereas a branded store pays nothing to the distributor and the branding company i.e. Texaco, Chevron, BP, etc, have their own independant refineries and shipping industries and pay roughly half per gallon over the non-branded stores.





Now there's the clincher! It's the war beginning all those years ago, not the current issues with Katrina, we haven't seen that yet. Will I pay to see it? No, I'm young, have legs, will walk.

EDITED_BY: Julie2022 (1125856940)


"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Stick Man

Global warming is a long process. It has been getting worse for hundreds of years.



Surely you mean 100 years? "Global Warming" has only had an effect since the proliferation of fossil fuels to support industries. Industries only really became a global issue this century. Sure there were coal mines and stuff before, but it's effects were negligible.

I can't even talk about Bush without ranting any more, so I won't. I've been shouting myself hoarse about him ever since he got elected the first time. Can't be bothered with it anymore. frown


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Stick Man
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

Stick Man

member
Location: Nh

Total posts: 37
Posted:The burning of wood is a major cause of greenhouse gas production also. Africa has been doing it for awhile and its not even cold there. http://www.scidev.net/News/index.cfm?fuseaction=readNews&itemid=2022&language=1


I ain't been around the world, but I've been around the block. I ain't seen everything, but I've seen enough to talk. I'm not a prophet, I'm not the 2nd comming of christ. I'm just a mason with a will to build and a little advice.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Stick Man

The burning of wood is a major cause of greenhouse gas production also. Africa has been doing it for awhile and its not even cold there.



Oh good, I was wondering how we could blame black people. wink

Perhaps if they hadn't have chosen to be slaves they wouldn't even be in Louisiana in the first place. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Stick Man
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

Stick Man

member
Location: Nh

Total posts: 37
Posted:lolsignWow! thank you. I needed a good laugh. Caught me completely off guard. thankx

I ain't been around the world, but I've been around the block. I ain't seen everything, but I've seen enough to talk. I'm not a prophet, I'm not the 2nd comming of christ. I'm just a mason with a will to build and a little advice.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Stick Man

The burning of wood is a major cause of greenhouse gas production also. Africa has been doing it for awhile and its not even cold there. http://www.scidev.net/News/index.cfm?fuseaction=readNews&itemid=2022&language=1




The reason wood is better than coal is because wood is theoretically renewable. If the only thing we burned was wood, then we'd have to grow trees to burn, which would act as a carbon sink.

Now, to get back to the OT, there are four ways to end a second-term Presidency.

1) End-of-term (2008)
2) Impeachment AND Removal (which has never happened)
3) Resignation
4) Assasination

Now, 2, 3, and 4 are strikingly unlikely. So this will, in all likelihood, not end Bush's presidency.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:At least it might serve to keep him from getting re-elected in 2012...

I hope.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I wouldn't be worried about him running again in 2012. Very few Presidents enjoy the Presidency.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stick Man
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

Stick Man

member
Location: Nh

Total posts: 37
Posted:My point is: I disagree with the Ultra Liberal belief that Bush caused Katrina by causing global warming. Global warming is caused by greenhouse gasses being trapped in the atmosphere. Greenhouse gasses are produced when you burn fossil fuels (oil, natural gas, and coal), and wood and wood products. Therefore we were producing greenhouse gasses long before the discovery of fossil fuels and therefore long before the election of either Bush. Im not saying burning wood is as bad as fossil fuels. Im just saying that burning wood releases greenhouse gasses which cause global warming. And that we have been burning wood, clear cutting forests and doing plenty of other environmentally damaging things to cause global warming for quite some time now.

I ain't been around the world, but I've been around the block. I ain't seen everything, but I've seen enough to talk. I'm not a prophet, I'm not the 2nd comming of christ. I'm just a mason with a will to build and a little advice.

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:No one (that I've seen) has blamed Bush as the sole cause of global warming. That would be stupid. There is a view supported by a lot of climatologists (that is, people who spend their life studying climate change and resultantly probably know slightly more about it than you or me) and scientists such as Sir David King that the increase in the surface temperature of the sea in the gulf area (which has been measured over the last 70 odd years), which denotes an increase in energy, has made hurricanes more freaquent (predicted hurricanes for this year are triple the national average of the last 50 years) and more powerful. This sort of increase in extreme weather, be it droughts, hurricanes, tornados, blizzards etc is what climate change is expected to bring to the planet.

If this is the case then we are all partially responsible for creating these conditions as we all do things like use computers, lights, cars/public transport etc, which are currently largely powered by fossil fuels.

Some 95% of climatologists believe that the current climate change we are experiencing is because of human action, and about 40% think we've already passed the point at which a major ecological disaster resulting in the widespread of extinction of the current lifeforms which populate the planet.

Despite this advice (which has not only come from the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) but also from the United States Environment protection agency, who have had many researchers resign because of government manipulationstrategies and the repeated repressed their own agency's findings) the Bush administration has refused to involve itself in any international treaty to attempt to combat climate change. And for this it has received widespread international (and national) condemnation. No one has said Bush caused Katrina. What people have said is, that if the world's only superpower, (who with 4% of the global population contributes 25% of global CO2 emmisions on average, every american citizen contributes 20 tonnes of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere each year, this compares for instance with the average UK citizen at 9 tonnes and the average Indian at 1.1 tonnes) continues to fail to act on this issue, then we can say with increasing certainty that this type of 'natural disaster' will occur more freaquently in the future. Resultantly a lot of people around the world feel that the Bush administration's actions are tantamount to causing untold suffering to future generations rather than damage the US economy (the stated reason for not signing up to Kyoto).


Oh and by ultra liberal do you mean radical? smile


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Stick Man

My point is: I disagree with the Ultra Liberal belief that Bush caused Katrina by causing global warming.



So the first sign of faltering logic is ascribing beliefs to people who don't hold said belief.

Please find me one statement ANYWHERE by someone who claims themselves to be sane, that Bush caused Katrina.

Then, let's come back into this argument with some solid reasoning, rather than placing beliefs so that you can knock them down.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Do a search Lightning. You're wrong. smile

I searched yahoo for "bush caused Katrina" and found 405 sites.

Here's a quote for you:

"The Bush government rejects international climate protection goals by insisting that imposing them would negatively impact the American economy. The American president is closing his eyes to the economic and human costs his land and the world economy are suffering under natural catastrophes like Katrina."

Who said it? Some pothead uberliberal? Hardly, it was Germany's Minister of the Enviromnent Jurgen Trittin .

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168105,00.html
br>
I could find more but I'll let you do the legwork.

Yes, there is a vocal minority that believes that Bush's politics allowed global warming but don't take my word for it...

The first sign of faltering logic is not doing a search first. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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duvan


duvan

ancient oachkatzlschwoaf
Location: germany

Total posts: 249
Posted:bush didn't cause katarina, bush didn't cause global warming but he definitely provides global warming by not signing the Kyoto protocol FOR EXAMPLE ! there are a lot more examples which I don't wanna list because I get tired off bitching about bush.

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Page: 123

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