Forums > Social Discussion > should we start whaling again?

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:as the IWC meets again there seems to be a large push to start commercial whaling once more. does anyone actually think it this is a good idea.
i personally think its outrageous.
for more info...
http://www.tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425822/593116/


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete Topic

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:here here, on the maori traditional excuse. as a fellow kiwi im sick of it too. that is kinda what i mean tho, its not tricky for you or i to say, that its bullocks, but politics gets very nancy boy about it (no offense to any nancy boys out there).

its not entirely off topic, this is partly what i wanted to talk about when i started the thread. and your right about culture changing, people get stuck in tradition and fail to realise that culture is in constant change and never static, they use tradition as an excuse. i like alot of the new kapa haka performances i saw this year, where some groups incorporated alot of the more recent aspects of polynesian culture in to their performances.

what im getting it is the question of WHO has the right to change tradition and culture? can we force japan to drop this tradition, because we think our culture knows better?


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Yeah, I think people care, it just seems a bit 'above' us, over our heads, to be able to affect the outcome of such debates, which belong more in the realm of rich and powerful / machinations and bribery than public opinion via forums. Fluffy yes, but also realistic/disillusioned about eg having marched in the street against the Iraq invasion ( let's not dignify it by calling it a war...) and it still happening...



And regarding tradition.. I think whaling is more akin to "shall we rescue African/middle Eastern women from genital mutilation" than the burqa. The damage is permanent and inflicted to benefit others.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:but the basic underlying assumption is the same:
"our culture is better, we know what is best for everyone, so we will impose our views and values and way of life on everyone else."
dont get me wrong tho, i think whaling and female castration and circumcision should stop, while i dont think we should stop the burkha. i think what yu said "The damage is permanent and inflicted to benefit others" touches on why.
but the question still remains, "who has the right to impose change on a culture?" change will always occur, but where should it come from?


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Icer I would love to chat to you about this.. but work calls!

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:yea, i here you on that one, ive got things i need to be doing too. drop me PM sometime or get back to the thread when you not busy. im always keen to chat and avoid work biggrin

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

Konsti
Konsti

lovable smart-ass
Location: vineyards, Vienna, Austria
Member Since: 16th Oct 2003
Total posts: 785
Posted:aight a certain letter is stuck on this keiboard, so bear with me.

the japs never stopped whaling.... as africans never stopped killing elephants. the fact that laws exist doesnt mean that thei are enforced. The world is an anarchic political/ economical sistem that relies on a form of hegemonic stabiliti to enforce the rules. so as long as whaling is not hurting the hegemon then there will be no enforcement of the laws whatsoever. and lets be serious....those NGOs that tri and do something arent getting veri far. i mean, im all for those greenpeace dudes in their little boats circling the whaling boat, but in the end thei have stopped 2 out of 30.
now guess who the hegemon is right now.

please do not hesitate to direct all questions, comments, rudes gestures at me.


"is optimism in austria just a lack of information?"
-Alfred Dorfer

Delete

DarthMeaux
The artist formerly known as Phae'xorl.
Location: South-East Ohio (the foothills...
Member Since: 28th Jun 2005
Total posts: 145
Posted:Absolutely not....They are a long lived very inteligent (not that dumb animals have any less right to live though) race, who do as Doc Lightning so eliquently stated, take a very long time to replinish....All in all, poor idea...

"...heaven is ordering a six piece chicken nugget and getting seven...and a switchblade."

Delete

_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:I think the reason people haven't responded as much to this thread is because it's fairly obvious that whaling shouldn't start again.

There are many vegetarians on the site, and I certainly can't think of any real reason why whaling would be necessary.

As for tradition... puh, that's all well and good if it's not harming anyone (or anything) else...


Getting to the other side smile

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:once again everyone missing the point im trying to make. its not about the whales and meat anymore people. its about taking an arrogant view of the world and saying 'we' as the most civilised people in existence have to right to tell everyone else what to do, what they can and cant do. as i stated before...

"but the question still remains, "who has the right to impose change on a culture?" change will always occur, but where should it come from? "

we kinda moved past the whales, everyone on here was always going to say that we shouldnt. its the cultural issue that i wanted to address.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:If a culture has got it wrong, then we're entitled to impose pressure on that culture to change.

You may ask by what right we can decide a culture to be 'wrong', and the answer would be in the same way we decide an individual to be wrong (eg a rapist, murderer etc).

Take some obvious cases- female circumcision (which is actually extreme genital mutilation, far more so than male circumcision), chinese 'foot binding' etc, etc.

Those are cases of cultural traditions which are wrong, which are essentialy crimes against humans, and not at all lessened by the fact that they are an established part of a culture.

IMO, the 'culture of humanity' overides any form of racial/ethnic culture- if a culture inflicts pain and suffering on it's members, regardless of their wishes, then I say it's wrong. (I put it like that because I'm not particularly opposed to voluntary participation in physically harmful rituals- I am very opposed to forcing it on people).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:but your making these judgements of right and wrong from within your own framwork of judgement, created by your own culture.

"If a culture has got it wrong, then we're entitled to impose pressure on that culture to change"
-sounds very much like something Bush would say about Iraq. who is the 'we' you mention in this? there is a question of authority and sovereignty implicit in what you saying there. who is the japanese culture answerable to? Britain? America? i think not.

"You may ask by what right we can decide a culture to be 'wrong', and the answer would be in the same way we decide an individual to be wrong (eg a rapist, murderer etc)."
-once again this is from WITHIN a particular culture, we're dealing with things cross-culturally here, which causes alot more problems. are there any universal rules that apply to ALL humanity that have not been created though a mono-cultural framework of thought.
as an example, it has been shown that 'pain' is not a universal concept, every culture has pain, its a biological component we cant escape from, but different cultures have different perceptions of pain (to forestall any people saying im supporting foot binding or circumcision, im not).

"IMO, the 'culture of humanity' overides any form of racial/ethnic culture"
-there is no 'culture of humanity', the world is becoming globilised, but that could as easily be termed 'westernised' too. the problem is that people cannot escape the binds of there own cultural perceptions (of right and wrong). ive said it before, we need to recognise how our eyes shape what we see.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Icer

but your making these judgements of right and wrong from within your own framwork of judgement, created by your own culture.




That's true. Any judgement that anyone makes is similarly determined- it's not IMO, a problem. I have my views of what is right and what is wrong- they are influenced by my culture, but I stand by them. I also consider myself aware and intelligent enough to moderate any negative cultural influences.

Written by: Icer




"You may ask by what right we can decide a culture to be 'wrong', and the answer would be in the same way we decide an individual to be wrong (eg a rapist, murderer etc)."
-once again this is from WITHIN a particular culture, we're dealing with things cross-culturally here, which causes alot more problems. are there any universal rules that apply to ALL humanity that have not been created though a mono-cultural framework of thought.




And again, I agree; but I maintain that this is not a problem.


the 'culture of humanity' is being developed and shaped, here and now. The more we recognise that our humanity is more important and fundamental than our race and ethnic culture, the more that the 'culture of humanity' will develop into its final form.

The rules that apply to ALL humanity are not pre-existing, they are in the process of being developed, and yes, some of those are going to develop from existing mono-cultures.

You seem to be suspicious of actually having points of view of what these 'rules' should be; personally I'm quite happy to look at certain cultural traditions and say 'they are wrong, and I would like them ended'.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Icer


"If a culture has got it wrong, then we're entitled to impose pressure on that culture to change"
-sounds very much like something Bush would say about Iraq. who is the 'we' you mention in this? there is a question of authority and sovereignty implicit in what you saying there. who is the japanese culture answerable to? Britain? America? i think not.



Please don't imply that I'm anything like Bush- just because something sounds like something Bush would say does not mean that it's actually anything like it.

I consider myself entitled to impose certain of my beliefs on individuals- for example, if I'm mugged, I'm entitled to make my own decision, there and then, to act in such a way that that individual is harmed.

Similarly, I have cetain beliefs about what is right and wrong for a culture. For example, in some cultures it's standard practice to take young females and stitch up their vaginas so they can't have sex.

In my view that is wrong, and it should be stopped- that view is influenced by the fact that I've been brought up in a Western culture; but, ultimately, regardless of that influence, female circumcision is just something that I see as wrong.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:im not suspicious of having a point of view. im just aware of how i would feel if i was told by someone outside of my culture that my culture was wrong and needed to be changed.
i do think certain practises are wrong and should be ended, but do we have the right to enforce this change? isnt it better to educate people and give them alternatives, rather than force change upon them?
it may take longer, but when you try and force the issue you end up with situations worse than you started with. i suppose im asking the question, about whether we should encourage change and leave it up to the culture in question to inplement that change of their own free will, or force it upon them and leave them no choice.

my problem with the westernisation of the world, is not so much the establishment of certain norms, but that these norms are created, not by taking the best aspects of all cultures, but by taking the most dominant cultures as templates. just because they a dominant, does not mean they are better.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:My feelings are that those who think it's OK to circumcise their female children will tend not to be especially open to education.

And, while that education is taking place over time, several generations of children will have this surgery inflicted upon them.

ie, by standing back and letting things continue, you are still making a decision which affects people (the females who are circumcised)- if you consider it wrong to impose beliefs on others, I'd ask you to justify your own imposition on those children through your inaction.

As with all things, there is a balance to be struck- often interference actually makes things worse (Iraq?), but, often it doesn't- it brings about good change.

Where child abuse (eg female circumcision) is concerned, it is my feeling that this should not be acceptable in the developing 'culture of humanity', and, any ethnic culture which currently practises it, should be put on notice that the practice is considered deeply immoral.

Getting on-topic (whaling)- if some japanese wish to justify illegal killing of intelligent beings purely on cultural grounds, then I'm not going to be swayed by that, because, as previously stated, certain other cultures could similarly justify their abuse of young females on cultural grounds.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:ok, i didnt see this in your earlier reply, but...

In my view that is wrong, and it should be stopped- that view is influenced by the fact that I've been brought up in a Western culture; but, ultimately, regardless of that influence, female circumcision is just something that I see as wrong."

-it is not regardless of that influence, it is precisely because of that influence that you see it as wrong. the men doing this are doing it because of the influence of their own culture. you will never escape the influence of your own culture...and i dont think your like Bush.



as to your latest reply...

well said, all good points.

i said earlier that i think culture is a flimsy excuse at times. i was questioning when and where we have the right to impose our own cultural views on people we disagree with.



i think you have made some good points, i would develop them further and say that intevention is required for some issues but others should be dealt with more passively. things that cause excessive harm, either to humans, animals or the environment should be dealt with as soon as possible, maybe not by 'any means neccesary', but with reasonable actions.



i still dont think we should go out of our way to impose our own cultures on other peoples however. this may seem contradictory to what i just said but, hey, thats life.



"if you consider it wrong to impose beliefs on others, I'd ask you to justify your own imposition on those children through your inaction"

-not that i would or could stand by and watch while some one did things i didnt agree with, you do justify the inaction in your statement, we should not impose beliefs on others. that is one of the fundamental things i thought the 'west' stood for. freedom of choice, expression and all that jazz. its another one of those contradictions, we want everyone to have the freedom to do what they want...aslong as what they do is alright. how many champion freedom of speech, then get outraged when people bad mouth 'blacks' or 'fags'?



i have these contradictions in myself, and sometimes feel like a hypocrite for them, but to resolve my conflicting thoughts about particular issues. this is why i was questioning other peoples contradictory views to see if others have reached acceptable resolutions between freedom and conformity. which is what this debate is about; freedom to express your own culture and beliefs vs. conforming to the global (western) standards of propriety.

EDITED_BY: Icer (1120708532)


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:My points of view have been formed over 37 years of life, and obviously the culture I live in has been a big influence.

But... I am the kind of person who questions and rejects certain of those cultural influences. for example, my culture tells me to be materialistic and chase after status- I've made the choice to reject those.

Also, our culture is not focused and consistent- though it does focus on status/materialism/consumerism, ther are elements with that very culture that push the opposite message (so ulimately, if you've been exposed to both these aspects, it's you who ultimately must choose).

As I said before, I consider myself aware and intelligent enough to recognise the extent to which my culture influences my views.

Concerning my objections to female circumcision- the cause of that is not my culture, it is because I am opposed to unnecessary pain and disfigurement being inflicted upon children.

That is a simple principle 'it is wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and disfigurement upon children' and it is one that can be held regardless of the culture one lives in (and is- even in cultures where such things are considered OK, there are always those who see through it and believe it to be wrong).

I like to think that, as the 'culture of humanity' develops, principles like 'it is wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and disfigurement upon children' will be at its heart, and cultures which still condone such practices will be seen for what they are- wrong.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:your still missing the point.
my point is that your concept of right and wrong has been influenced by your culture. im not saying you are constrained by your culture to act in a certain way, but that it will ALWAYS influence you to greater or lesser degrees. i use the term 'influence' here because people always have a choice in how they behave and act, they are not constrained by culture, but culture creates predispositions towards certain types of behaviour. that is how people within these cultures which practise acts that you consider wrong can also consider them wrong. but the majority probably dont.
why does this majority see these acts as not being as wrong as you see them? because they have been influenced by their culture to have predispositions towards viewing these acts as traditional, legitmate practises.
you seem to be saying you have a better concept of right and wrong than this culture and its people. and you attribute that all to yourself rather than any cultural influence?

your choice to reject certain aspects of your culture isnt an example of you not being influenced by your culture. your actions are still being influenced by that materialism, even if it is to avoid it. which is another element of your culture, a 'subversion' of the 'mainstream'. which happens in many cultures, but is still part of the overall 'culture'. the danger here is to confuse 'culture' with the mainstream trends.

hopefully i have made my points clear. very simply, "i believe, everyone, with no exceptions, to a greater or lesser degree, has been and is, influenced by their culture." no one can run their life again from the start, within the setting of another culture to see how they would be different, so no one can objectively say, i have this view regardless of my culture.

i agree with you about stopping these acts of violence and torture. my point is that i see this as a left over form my own culture, that has a long long long history of presuming to know what is best for everyone else. im happy with that. i know i have been heavily influenced by my culture, but thats fine, so has everyone else, to greater or lesser degrees.
if you or anyone else is interested, i can email or provide links to an abundant amount of anthropology essays, articles and research journals dealing with this issue. all pretty much stating what i have just said.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

Page: 12

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [start whaling] we found the following similar topics.
1. Learn > Hoop > Hula Hoop > The Kick Start *help/resource shaky but here it goes  the kick start   this is possibly the most...
2. Learn > Diabolo > Killer Skills > 2d fan start *help/resource
3. Learn > Diabolo > Killer Skills > 2d half sun fan start *help/resource
4. Learn > Diabolo > Killer Skills > 2d normall start vortex exit *help/resource
5. Learn > Diabolo > Killer Skills > 2d opposite fast start *help/resource

     Show more..