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Forums > Social Chat > Dont Attak Iraq Demo!! (london 28th)

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Urban_Culture


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Location: coventry, midlands, uk

Total posts: 89
Posted:NE1 goin to the demo, itz gona b a biggun! stop the war coalition

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:I am aware that Bush graduated from Yale. He made much of the fact that he was a career "C" student during the election. His father also went to Yale and at the time of his son's entry to University was the Director of the CIA.
Seems like there MIGHT have been more than just Bush's academic abilities at work here.

Gore wasn't a great choice either, but I had to vote for him. I have to say that either McCain or Bradley would have been a much better choice for President.

Raph


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:lightbug, I don't generalise and insult all Americans. I criticise your government, it's a common global past time, including in the US. It is a common problem of Americans that they take it personally when you criticise their government when that's a basic principle of a democractic system the US government claims to uphold . It's funny that often they fight back by insulting the British government, and get confused when most Brits agree with them. Blair backs Bush, I don't support Blair. This is why I'll spend the day tomorrow marching through the streets.

"quoteing yourself about the alleged blocked medical supplies". I quoted the source as the UN itself! They release the reports into the public domain for all to see. Just because you haven't heard it yet doesn't mean that it's not true, as you said: you don't know everything. I don't think anyone does.

The shipments to Iraq and the vetoes on them go through the UN, however the process is that any of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council can veto a shipment. The majority of vetoes are placed by the US. That is why, although it's the UN acting, it's the US government's actions that directly cause suffering in Iraq. The sanctions have been proved to not work, and in fact do the opposite of their intention by forcing the population into submission, but the US continues to enforce them to barbaric extremes.

There is no humanitarian reason for invading Iraq that is not out weighed by lifting sanctions and pursing a diplomatic solution.

The British and French played a large part in drawing the maps of the Middle East that add to the problems we're facing today, however American action is feeding the problem now, and that's what we're discussing now.

Not about oil: Iraq holds the second largest proven stores of petroleum in the world. America does not have enough oil of it's own and needs the Middle East's oil. This is why analysts predict oil and petrol prices in the US will rise in the event of a war, because the US is dependent upon Middle East oil.

The Iraq/Al-Quada link is interesting. There's no evidence. The secrecy excuse is flawed as it wouldn't do any harm to release the information in the same way links to other organisations and individuals has been released. However the big factor in not believing this for me, and many, is that Saddam is hated by Islamic fundamentalists. He's spent his reign suppressing Islamic fundamentalism. So why would Saddam, a secular leader opposed to fundamentalist Islam, give such powerful weapons to his opponents?

Ray: that volcano fact isn't true. Firstly it depends upon the type of volcano as to which gases are released in which quantities. Only large eruptions of the correct type cause enough volcanic aerosols (an aerosol is a suspension of fine solid or liquid particles, not a particular chemical) to enter the stratosphere and this does cause damage to the ozone layer. However volcanic aerosols are not CFCs, it's mainly dust coated sulphur, nitrogen and chlorine compounds which act on ozone. CFCs, however, are gases which have a much longer half life in the stratosphere and are more efficient. This is why man-made CFCs are more dangerous the the ozone layer than volcanoes.

If you're letting God look after the world how do you know his will isn't that he act through you? Therefore by not thinking environmentally you're going against God's will. Just a thought.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:No Ray, it was just a general comment. I was just putting forward a few reasons why some people (me included) find writing difficult.

Don't get me started on Vietnam, Ray. One war at a time

[ 28 September 2002, 00:04: Message edited by: Stone ]


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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David Ike's Decaf


member
Location: Quiet Suburbia

Total posts: 17
Posted:Vietnam?
WASN'T THAT A DRAW?


Hi I'm David Ike,You may remember me from such films as Whoops, is that my Lizard? and the weather on ITV.

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:This is starting to sound more and more like the John Cleese and Kevin Kline scene at the end of "A Fish Called Wanda."



Raph


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Maximus


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Location: Upland, CA., USA

Total posts: 250
Posted:If I lived close enough, I'd go to your anti-war demonstration. Spin some white poi for me.
Good on you, lads!

Maximus


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lightbug


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Location: arizona

Total posts: 321
Posted:david iks fat head: quote: Raymund Phule, LightBug and Vaperloc, narrow minded, egocentric, second circuit obsessed war hungry people like you give Americans a bad name.
when i want your opinion i will beat it out of you.

how ya like me now!



[ 28 September 2002, 06:54: Message edited by: lightbug ]


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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lightbug


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Total posts: 321
Posted:ya dom you dont bash americans.. you cant possibly be saying that with a streight face.. any one whos been in these debates w/ you knows exactly how you feel about americans.. you go ahead and march against your goverment if you think we can reach a diplomatic solution w/ saddam... dont be so quick to think that your way is the right way. have you stopped and thought about how violent saddam is. how much he hates us all... then think about how hes had 8 years alone w/ no supervision from the UN. do you even realize the kinda of weapons he could have hidden underground.. if you want to do the "pc" thing well then im very proud of you. you better realize that the threat of a nuke or chem attack on your home is a very real and in my opinion likely outcome.. personally i dont trust iraq in anyway and its gone to far now to solve these issues with words and treaties.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:Maybe its not just about oil, as was the case during Desert Storm.

Maybe its also about dealing arms.

The US made a fortune selling arms to both sides during the Iran-Iraq conflict as well as selling arms to the Afgan rebels when they fought the Russians.

It could be a good way to boost the economy, if nothing else.

Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Why is it that any time anyone comes to the UN for help and America (who is part of the UN) offers their assistance it is seen as America trying to take over and run things? Kuait came to the UN as did South Vietnam and South Korea!

Now in the gulf, America was the first to act, we are by far the most readily deployed and forward deployed of all countries. Even though other countries are in the same hemispher America has the means to get there first. Because we can move faster with a stronger force it is seen as our little war.

Did oil have anything to do with the Gulf War? You bet your wiskers! Was it the only reason? No!

A peacefull country came to the UN and said that they were being attacked! Now if any of you try to say that Iraq is peacefull, umm ya right! They may not have done anything too rash over the past 10 years, but then again tell that to the families of the men and women killed over that past 10 years ensureing that Sadam doesnt pull out any weapons of mass destruction or stage another war.

Dom you do despise America and Americans, every time you post you try to bring something else up to either make us look bad or just some condencending BS! I dont think you have ever, EVER said anything positive. So your own words call you a liar! You are more antiAmerica than you are anti anything!

"How about YOU read Fast Food Nation By Eric Schlosser for more info, it has no pictures though...
Raymund Phule, LightBug and Vaperloc, narrow minded, egocentric, second circuit obsessed war hungry people like you give Americans a bad name.
If your views express those of your entire nation than i fear for the saftey of the world."

I do know some of the things in that book, like how there is a certain amount of rat poop allowed in cookies, things like that. How lipstick is made out of fish scales, yadda yadda yadda!

I love my hamburgers and my frenchfries and there is nothing you can say that will change my mind!

Egocentric that I am, narrow minded though? Please, just becuase I refuse to do drugs to "highten the experiance" or because I stand up for my country instead of bashing it, you call me narrow minded? If that is the reason by all means I am narrow minded. At least I am not frying my brain and atleast I dont back talk and hate my own people.

War hungry? No flat out no! I do not hunger for war, I know what happens in war. Though I have yet to know from personal experiance, I know from friends tails. PEOPLE MY AGE DYING BECAUSE OF THE DREAM AND IDEAS OF FREEDOME!! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF MIND JOB THAT IS? VMGR 352, a C-130 cargo plane went down in the mountains of Packistan all on board were killed. There were two men on there that were the same rank as me, these men I knew. I hung out with at the Great Escape (a part of the Single Marine Program, a place for Marines to hang out)in MCAS Miramar where I am stationd. I never met their families I was deployed when it happend. I understand though what they went through, and you mother fuckers think I want that for anyone! GO TO HELL ALL OF YOU!! I DONT WANT THAT FOR ANYONE LEAST OF ALL MY FAMILY, BUT IF YOU THINK FOR ONE DAMN MINUTE THAT I WILL SIT BACK AND LET SOMEONE THREATEN MY LAND AND MY FAMILIES LIFE YOUR FUCKING INSAIN!!!

I am the last person in the world that wants to do my job, but I will to keep my people safe! To keep our allies safe, no matter the reason for them being our allies! If you dont want that then just fucking die and save me the sacrifice, at least I want to keep your ass safe, that is a hell of alot more than you want to do for me!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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falloutboy
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...

Total posts: 433
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
GO TO HELL ALL OF YOU!!ok. i can understand the need to vent.. but well, that i feel was slightly uncalled for. you be the judge.

This thread (and all related happenings in the world right now) makes me very sad indeed.
We all assume war is just a part of life, that it's "normal" - well, i suppose we would wouldn't we. We can only compare what we have to the things we know.. and really, war is all we know. Look at our history, i don't think there has been one single period of time (however short) since the beginning of mankind where there has been true peace - no fighting and no war. It seems it's in our nature, and it seems to be our destiny to destroy ourselves - which is really a very depressing thought.

We all need to take a step back, strip down our perception of war, and see it for what it really is - Human beings killing fellow human beings - usually in the name of some hidden political agenda unknown to those doing the killing. It is brutal, disgusting, inhumane and horrific.. but the real tradgedy is the ease in which so many accept it as a viable solution. We have become desensitized to the extent that many people just don't even care about human life anymore.

In my opinion it shows a lack of intelligence and lack of moral fibre to resort to fighting to try to solve any problem.. big or small. It is an insult to us all, as a race.

- we all think a world without war and fighting is a a fantasy.. an impossible dream of the minority. Well, as long as that's our mentality, then that's all it will remain.

i think i'm losing faith in humanity.


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:That quote was taken out of context bud, it wasnt just a vent and I wasnt talking about everyone. Just those that think I am a warmonger!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Here are some pics of what Iraq can do and has done to its own people. More will come as I get them.

this is what mustard gas does to you [image]http://www.uberhip.com/people/godber/images/mustard_gas.jpeg[/image]

Here is a chemical weapons factory in Iraq or should I say was!

Non-Https Image Link


Is this enough or should I find more?

[ 28 September 2002, 13:31: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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falloutboy
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

falloutboy

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Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...

Total posts: 433
Posted:Ray - sorry if you misunderstood my post, it wasn't an attack on you, or america, and i certainly was not showing any support for Saddam or his regime. It's my opinion that he's evil dictator, and i know full well the effects of chemical weapons.
You're trying to use the shock value of these effects to justify more killing? well, that only goes to further prove my point.

no offense mate - sincerely.

[ 28 September 2002, 13:43: Message edited by: falloutboy ]


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:No I am using those pics to justify getting rid of Sadam. Frankly I see the use of such weapons as cowerdly.

If that isnt justification in itself for getting rid of Sadam I dont know what is, but I tell you this, he will not give up his power just by saying please! Trade sanctions wont work, the only way to get him out is to remove him by force! Sorry but that is the only way.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug


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Location: arizona

Total posts: 321
Posted:quote:Maybe its not just about oil, as was the case during Desert Storm.

Maybe its also about dealing arms you should stop speaking.

desert storm was a highly supported campaign. all the united nations not to mention the arabs being murdered by saddam where all for our envolvment. if your trying to make a case against america thats the wrong war.. it wasnt about oil. we got envolved because saddam all of the sudden decided that according to pre colonial maps kuwait belonged to him and began occupying murdering and robbing.. everyone wanted action against him.


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
I know this is a quote but, this is why nothing further was said. Ever hear of something called OpSec? It means Operational Security, meaning you dont give out any more info than you absolutly must. Guess what... you cant just blab everything to the enimy, because you damn well know they are listening!
Right, but if it's SO important, then the people at the top of the government, namely the Senators, ought to know about it.

This business of "I have proof but I'm not gonna telllll yoooouuuuuu" isn't something that has ever really amused Congress, no matter who the President is.

There was a great editorial on the OP/ED page of the NYT today by Representative Dick Gephardt on how the Bush Administration is politicizing this. It's sick, really. How they are trying to time this to coincide with the start of election season, how they are seeking a broad-based blank check for war (which is what precipitated Vietnam), and about internal memos that have been leaked about how to best use this as an election tool.

Frankly, Ray, I'm a bit surprised that you're so gung-ho to go in there risking your neck. And it is YOUR neck, after all...

Besides, we'd all be really sad if you got killed.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:I'm not trying to make a case against America. I love America. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything that is done by Americans or condone the actions of a president whose policies I don't agree with.
Part of the freedom we enjoy is having the right to be critical of our leaders without getting arrested or worse.

The only reason you shouldn't be critical of your leaders is if you decide not to vote. Even if you just pull a lever without thinking about it, its still better than not voting at all.

Raphael


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ray, this is a bit "off topic" and I'm not taking the piss or even asking you to give your hamburgers & fries. But earlier, you mentioned God stepping in to save the planet before Man destroyed it. (don't want to quote it back)

I thought the whole Christian thing was about freewill. Like, when you ask a Christian "how can a compassionate and caring God let some much injustice exist in the world?" They usually say, "God gave mankind free will."

I've always assumed that meant God gave humans the freewill to either save or destroy the planet. Like it is up us mortals to save the planet, not God. That’s the choice he gave us.

Now, call me nave, but I think we are running out of time. So, shouldn't we all be trying to save the planet, even if that means thinking about the environmental costs of our food and clothing?

Draw nice try, david ike's decapitated head from quiet suburbia.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Stone, God gave man free will, this is true.
However, when bad things happen to "good people", or there are injustaces that happen in the world it is because of one thing. Nobody is good! "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"! Taking that into effect, those bad things are punishments. Some may seem really harsh, but if I sin and God takes away something I love, then maybe it's a hint that I should watch my step. God has infinate compashion but he does not let you just do whatever you want without reprecussion. Did your parents let you do what ever you wanted with out punishment? He punishes us becuase he loves us. I do not pretend to know Gods will or why things happen but man the answers are all there, you just got to read them.

Now, God is not going to let mankind destroy the planet. Sorry, this puppy was made to last.

Mike, if I dont go in and risk my neck, who will? You? Doubtfull, sorry man its not my neck that I am worried about, it's yours!

If I dont risk my neck who will ensure that you are able to finish your edjucation? I'm here for you, not those retards on the hill!

Just so you know, the French started Vietnam, America was just the last ones holding the bag so it was seen as our war.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

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Posted:Exactly. Bad things happen when nobody is good! Which is what I meant. We haven't progressed much in the 2000 years have we? We seem to keep repeating the same mistakes. Eventually they will catch up with us, unless we start thinking about what we are doing.

"Now, God is not going to let mankind destroy the planet. Sorry, this puppy was made to last."

That's true Ray. The planet will survive, but it will be a barren planet with out plants and animals. Insects and bugs will probably survive though

Call me a pessimist.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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lightbug


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Posted:i dont share rays faith in god. sometimes i wish i did. i feel that theres nothing tending to the balance of things. i feel we could be hit by a meteor or nuclear war at any givin momment. if you want to criticize bush or the senate thats fine i know i do. i think bush loses more support for the war then he gains. when other the world sees him hes ranting and with saddam trying to kill his dad it just looks like hes pushing to hard and to anxious. still there are very good reasons to be in that war.. the main problem w/ this war is saddam has not attacked us directly (recently anyway). and he seems to be complying w/ UN inspections. its been 4 years since an inspector set foot there. he could have and i most likely does have many weapons underground . inspectors dont even know where to look anymore. he will attack america kuwait isreal and any arabs that try to step in the way. things are different then they where 40 years ago. we cant let them take the first punch. that could the only one thrown these days.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:It is very possible for there to be a one punch fight! However Sadam has shot down and shot at numerus planes over flying the No Fly Zones in Iraq. Not all of them were American mind you.

I do not see a possible diplomatic solution, war is the only way to prevent an even bigger catastrophy.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug


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Location: arizona

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Posted:i agree removeing saddam from power is the only course of action at this point. he deserves no compasion. no fly zones were put into effect because saddam was bombing the shit out of opposing arabs in iraq. these people stand no chance against his attacks. so we make this agreement w/ saddam. british and american fighters patrol these areas making sure hes not bombing these arabs. so what does saddam do? he starts shooting down our pilots!! hes got some balls i will give him that. he spits in our face every chance he gets. to sit around w/ our thumbs up our asses waiting for him to nuke isreal or kuwait or america or england sounds to me like about the dumbest move the world can make. i promise you he will kill many people if he stays in power..

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:lightbug, ignoring your rather boring ranting against my perceived 'American bashing' can I correct your statement that Saddam's had 8 years alone. The UN inspectors left in December 98. It's now 2002. That's just under 3 years. Since then we've been monitoring Iraq via satellite and controlling their imports and Iraq has been notifying us of missile tests, many military movements, etc... He's not at all invisible to us.

At that time the UN inspectors were confident that there were no biological, chemical or nuclear weapons anywhere in Iraq. Not even in these mythical underground caverns where Bin Laden is camping out testing chemical weapons on cute puppies. The UN inspectors were really, really good at their jobs and were able to detect hidden air defense sites miles away. So massive chemical plants were easy.

Being experts they also had a clear enough idea of what was going on to produce estimates for how long it'd take to rebuilt a program. Even if Iraq was a developed country with a healthy industry, had lots of money and had no crippling sanctions against it there is no way they could have rebuilt any biological, chemical or nuclear weapons in that time. With Iraq crippled it's virtually impossible. The source of this is straight from a UN inspector's mouth to my ears and in many other places.

Ray, in the cases of Kuwait, Korea, etc... yes, the UN was asked for help and the US helped out. Nobody is saying they shouldn't have. But this time nobody has asked for help, the US is acting alone.

You don't want to go to war, so you're on the same side as me.

"no fly zones were put into effect because saddam was bombing the shit out of opposing arabs in iraq" - We gave him permission to bomb in the no fly zone to suppress the rebellion we started! So it's hypocritical to state this as a reason.

If you're interested the march on Saturday was huge! There's various estimates for numbers, up to 400 000, which is likely seeing how it took about 4 hours between the first and last protestors leaving the start. An absolutely amazing day!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Dom I am far from your side. You dont want protection from an enimy you cant defend yourself from you want controled. You have no desire to help anyone other than yourself. You have no sence of pride or patriotisim. I am nothing like you nor am I on your side. I will fight and die if nessisary to prevent someone from hurting the ones I love. You just want to wave white flags in their face! I dont want to have to kill but I sure as hell will.

Are you trying to tell me that we gave Saddam permission to kill your pilots and mine?

The UN inspectors viewd 30% of Saddam's possible sights, like I said if you hide the eveidence is there any? They were restricted from seeing certain sites! What does that tell you? Perhaps that he was hiding something?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:I'd be interested to know where that 30% figure is from.

Ray, you're very quick to judge. I'm not here to prove my pride and patriotism here and I don't see how you can intelligently judge that from this discussion.

The reason I go on so much against the war is because I do care. I care about everyone. If I didn't care I would be marching of peace thousands of miles away.

I believe your arguments, and especially lightbug's, are often driven from a more childish and insecure desire to attack me rather than to justify your belief that this war is worthwhile, which is the point of the thread.

If you can't justify something then it's value is severely reduced. The truth is Iraq is not a real threat to you, me or our allies in the Middle East. Beyond repeating a politician's rhetoric that I've already put my case against, can you really justify military action against Iraq? If so, Ray, lightbug, anyone, please do so in a clear, logical manner without resorting to petty personal attacks. Otherwise the thread is dead.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Dom, do I even remotly sound like I am in the mood for your shit? You bitch and moan but what do you really accomplish? Nothing, your talking to a brick wall, an unbreakable wall. I will be blunt with you, Saddam must be stoped before something bad happens. Take it or leave it.

I dont justify shit, I follow orders go back to your white flags Dom. Let me do my damn job and go back to yours. After all its me who chose this life not you. Quit bitching about what I might have to do and go file a report or somthing.

[ 01 October 2002, 01:58: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:which proves my point entirely.
ta!


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Bram....


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Posted:Hey, leave Lightbug alone. Him and I still control the world. here lightbug *hands lightbug a big stick* now beat him wif it Look at 'im go

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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