Forums > Social Chat > Dont Attak Iraq Demo!! (london 28th)

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Urban_Culture
member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:NE1 goin to the demo, itz gona b a biggun! stop the war coalition

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Stone's post was pointing out the irony of the statement "Atleast we are letting countries goven themselves." The US consistent manipulation and threatening of governments worldwide in order to force them to adopt particular policies is well documented. And that's not to mention the numerous times the US has directly or indirectly carried out 'regime change'. The US does not let countries govern themselves.

Ray, your comparison between the US 200 years ago and the US now reveals your ignorance and arrogance. The baby US was not constantly at war with itself. In Afghanistan the provincial warlords carry out acts of terrorism (including bombs and assasination) against other warlords. however because they are our allies we ignore these acts of terror in our 'war against terrorism'.

Ray: Army/Marines/Whatever, it's all boys with deadly toys playing at games because somebody shouted at them that they should do something

lightbug - I think you need to read through all the posts in this thread. Nobody supporting Hussein, we're against a war with Iraq.

"its us (civilized countries) against them" - more US arrogance. Iraq is civilised. In fact it was one of the most advanced nations in the Middle East, until a decade of sanctions destroyed it. And the US is rapidly losing the right to be called civilised. Warmongering, narrow minded, extremist, dangerous, blinkered, threatening, unilaterial, all adjectives for the US and other terrorist supporting countries. But not civilised.

"how long do you think your precious freedom would last if the ... isralis werent on the front lines?" - Do you know how little freedom the Palestinians have? Are you aware of the daily humiliation they suffer? Are you completely blind. In the civilisation stakes the Israeli government ranks alongside a cesspit dewlling pig.


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Kurobei
member
Location: The Phire Kru
Member Since: 19th Aug 2002
Total posts: 786
Posted:Quite agree with Dom here.

If the US government hadn't been so eager to arm Bin Laden with weapons to help him fight the Russians, he wouldn't be in half as strong a situation as he's in now.

If the US government hadn't been so eager to arm Saddam with weapons to help him fight the Iranians, he wouldn't be in half as strong a situation as he's in now.

I'm not trying to pin the blame on the US alone, the UK is as much to blame as anyone, we've sold weapons to Iraq as well but I notice that before the gulf war, some strange things were going on in the area.

It's all to do with oil, we want it, they got it.

Kuwait entered disputed territory with Iraq to try and take an oil field, Iraq pushed the Kuwaities back and NATO/UN saw Saddam as the agressor due to alliance links with Kuwait. It's a simmilar situation with Bin Laden and whilst I don't agree with these mens views or the methods in which they carry them out, these people have been oppressed by the western world to the point where they take up arms just to be heard.

Power struggles are a dangerous thing and installing puppet governments in oil rich countries is NOT the way to go about it.

Ray and all the others here that are involved in the armed forces are sent in to enforce the decisions made by their government and whether they agree or disagree with what is going on it is their job to do it, they knew when they signed up that this kind of thing was possible. However, the Western world is too fond of hiding behind technology to solve problems.

An example of how ignorant the western world is was displayed to me with the aid of a highly intelligent friend - who has devoted most of his life to the study of Philosophy, Philosophy of Science and Metaphysics - and a old book called the I Ching (or Ye Jing).
The I Ching is a book which has taken many years to write, it is a collection of works from philosophers in China over the last few generations, they discovered that there are 64 variants of life by studying the concepts of Yin & Yang and told their discoveries to the world. Naturally as had become the fashion, the West rebuffed this idea and told the East they had no idea what they were talking about. Sure enough, a few years later, scientists in the West discovered there are in fact 64 amino-acids - the building blocks of life.

The answer to a peacefull and productive life is balance, without balance there is poverty, chaos and unhappiness.

The problems that are arising at the moment are the result of people trying to get one over on their opponent for (at the moment) oil.
Other factors contributing to the appaling state of the planet and the people living on it are big, money hungry corporations, the worst three being Nike, McDonalds and Coca Cola, all US companies I may add. Their sweatshops and degrading human rights policies force men, women and children to work in appaling situations and in some sweatshops (I've heard), the women are forced to take birth control pills so the male officials can rape them with no fear of loosing working time due to pregnancy. In others, workers are fed drugs to keep them at the factories and to improve their work output.

These are only a handfull the atrocities that are taking place as you read this and all our governments are worried about is how much oil we've sucked out of the planet. I would say the human race is in a pretty bad way.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I do not intend to insult anyone or anyone's country as a whole, more the people who are running the countries in question, they are the ones who are overcome with greed and a lusting for power and we, the everyday people, suffer as a result.

Afternote - Does anyone stop to think what Israel was called before the Second World War....................it was called PALESTINE.
Palestinian people lived there as well as Jewish ones I might add, the Allies felt sorry for the Jews and the trauma they had gone through and the Jews were crying out for help - understandable in their situation. So what do the Allies do? Kick the Palestinians out of their land, call it the State of Israel and stick all the Jews there. Notice they called it the STATE of Israel, just another state of the US.

[ 25 September 2002, 03:14: Message edited by: Kurobei ]


whats up with all the limitations?

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:Hmmm... Ray, you are now trying to protect the bush family who have benn connected wif drugs. When Bush senior was Governer of Texas, was his private plane not busted wif over 1 tonne of cocaine on it. Now we know where all the war money comes from, DRUG MONEY.

War is built upon the greed for money and land. What will the American gov't gain from taking over Iraq. Hmmmm... lets see. Millions of dollars in oil.Not that much is it.

And while we are on the topic of nuclear weapons, a decade or 2, maybe more, ago, the american gov't wanted to test a nuclear weapon on a archipelago in the indonesian pacific (you can find information on this) Now the original inhabitants cannot live there, because the fish, coconuts, crabs. Everything has uranium poisoning.
This is a prime example of a countries thoughtlessness when it comes to getting themselves ahead in the world.
As far as chemical warfare goes Ray, americans did use it against the native that lived there before. They knew that the blankets that they gave to them carried the smallpox plague. Talk about a countrie killing innocent people.
quote: America was and is a clongomeration of ever race relicion and creede. Is that so Ray, I guess that is why america is called a melting pot where people can conform to the same thing and lose thier racial identity other than having a different skin colour, mayhap being able to speak another language.

And dear Mr. Fieryfriend. Alas quote: Bram I really don't know where you get off suggesting the US will attack Canada, England etc. I hope you don't actually believe that. Sounds like you were just blowing off a little steam that unfortunately came out of your ass. America gained alot of prime farming soil after the galciars moved it from the canadian shields down to the middle areas of america. But it didn't give them enough water to be able to farm alot of crops in there. A while ago, guess who came to Canadian dorrs aking for for the rockie mtns. to be destroyed and replaced with a large through to bring them water. You guessed it kiddies, AMERICA. As far as taking over Canada as well. Remember the war of 1812, well you probably don't know the whole truth since they only telll the american side in the states, but America cam e to Canada and said hey, join us in a rebellion against britan. Canada siad NO, guess who sent a cuople of battalions to atack Canada, Wow. does it amaze you that it was america again


You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:dom i dont claim to know all details envolved you shouldnt either.. really none of us here know exactly what the score is.. ya iraq is really civilized.. i like how they drop chemical weapons on there own unsuspecting citizins and there neighboring countries.. would you be kewl w/ your country doing things like that?? yes the united states puts people into power and tries to set up some sort of order in there crazy lives.. its a juggling act.. you think the iraq people like sadamm. they fear him and they want help the problem in my opinion is the people of pakistan afgahnistan and iraq and sumalia and all the screwed up places in the world will not stand up for them selves... there either to scared or dont know any better.. as far as isreal and pakistan they just need to grow up and quit fighting over land. we all have to live here. the jews have been there as long as the muslim. why should either of them leave.. they need to cohabitate and stop being so proud and arrogant. there so busy fighting for this tiny peice of there HUGE continent. there not even doing anything w/ what they have.. to me it looks like the rise of nazi germany.. just a bunch of people blaming there problems on everyone else.. its bullshit.. and no dom i didnt read every post i dont have time however i still think im entitled to my opinion.

drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Dom, you remind me of an experience I had when travelling in south central asia. I met a Russian woman in Uzbekistan (then the USSR), who spoke a little english. When she found out I was an American, she said she had a relative living in the United States.
"Which one? I asked.
"Israel," she replied.


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Urban_Culture
member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


Sorry couldn't help myself!


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fieryfiend
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Location: California
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 48
Posted:quote: How long will it be before America decides that they want to take over Sth. America, Canada, England or Australia. Bram...now your defending this statement by citing a simplistic view of the War of 1812? Do you think Canadians are still threatened by this incident that took place nearly 200 years ago? Give me a break!!!
Your argument saying America isn't a melting pot is equally (if not more so) weak. America is all immigrants (except for native american, of course)!!!
As for bikini atoll Bram, that happened closer to 50 years ago. You can also visit the islands and scuba dive on the wrecks that were used for nuclear testing (I probably wouldn't though).

Be nice if people would at least attempt to stay on the topic (yea I know I didn't really help on this post with that).


Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:I am just using examples of americas willingness to go to war over greed and corruption as well as power. If you look at any american war in that time frame, they tried to persuade Canada to join them, and alot of the time if Canada said no, they attacked Canada. I also noticed that you only targeted that part of my debate. what about this quote: America gained alot of prime farming soil after the galciars moved it from the canadian shields down to the middle areas of america. But it didn't give them enough water to be able to farm alot of crops in there. A while ago, guess who came to Canadian dorrs aking for for the rockie mtns. to be destroyed and replaced with a large through to bring them water. You guessed it kiddies, AMERICA here is another thing, quote: From Fieryfriend Your argument saying America isn't a melting pot is equally (if not more so) weak. America is all immigrants (except for native american, of course)!!! I said that America is a melting pot where people can lose the majority of thier racial identity!!!!

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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master sodium
member
Location: carson city, nevada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 536
Posted:so fieryfiend, by saying that a war that is in the past (1812) does not say anything about what will happen now, then you should completely disregard the gulf war, cause thats in tha past.

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, for over 10 years trade sanctions have been put on Saddam, did that work? Hell no. What would you propose? Just let him keep on keeping on? You have all the answers dont you </sarcasim>

Dom I have been humiliated before, yet you dont see me strapping a bomb to my chest and running to the nearest market to blow the shit out of people. The humiliation that they suffer is from their own hands.

Dom, you are too antiamerica, what about the millions of dollars that we have spent to help people in other countries. We send aid to our enimies people, what civilised country would do that. We all know the britishes tactics in war, repeatedly they kill the women and children first, but we dont talk about your countries past wars now do we?

Kurobei, what were we supposed to do, let comunisim take the whole middle east as well as aisa? Dont forget the many years that the Russian people suffered becuase of communisim. You wanted that fate for those other people? And they call me uncivilised.

I would much rather launch a mistle than send 40 men to their death. Should we just line up on either side of a field and go toe to toe? Please, technoligy saves the lives. Then again look at Vietnam, technology didnt do that much, flexibility is what allowed the VC to overcome our technology.

Look, your state of Isriale is not part of America you said yourself, "the allies" that includes every country on the winning side of WWII. Where do you get off saying that it is an American state?

Frankly I would love to see the world run out of oil, I love the idea of alternative fule. No lie no sarcasim. Have you seen the gas prices in California? Oil is not the reason that anyone is attacking anyone. You all so bent on a conspiricy. You hear something that one person says and you accept it willingly as gosple.

You shouldnt just go blabbing things that ole bob on the corner said. You want to talk about rape, lets talk about the men in Africa who are raping babies because they think it will cure them from AIDS!! Another thing, McDonalds doesnt have sweat shops, Nike, who knows. I am sure that there are some British companies with some scrupulous tactics. The only reason that you dont hear about them is becuase American people actually give a shit, they get angry over things like sweatshops. That is why when one is found it is on the news. You take a few bad apples and think that it represents the views of the whole damn country. And they call me closed minded.

Bram, I never heard anything about that plane, can you provide some proof? America doesnt want to take over Iraq, it is more trouble than its worth, we just want to get rid of Saddam.

BS that they knew that the blankets had small pox, how would you know, were you alive back then? I think not.

Damn you guessed it Bram America has been planning to take over Canada since 1812. Better build your arse a bomb shelter.

I dont have time to read and reply to the rest. Gotta work.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:By the way, good luck with the demo, my advice..if you want to get noticed, don't demonstrate, RIOT! Good on you guys, go hard and don't take any gall from the Babylon!

[ 25 September 2002, 13:47: Message edited by: Fire_Emanator ]


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:And by the way again....is this not a Fire Art Forum...I am sure there are millions of other forums for the purposes of Mass Debate over current political and social issues??

Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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falloutboy
falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 433
Posted:Dom, it is refreshing to see someone with the same ideals as myself but with a much deeper understanding of the situation and knowledge of related facts. well done.

War solves nothing! that is my opinion, and if you don't agree, that's fine.

We all have the right to our own opinion (on any and every topic). But the entire point of expressing your ideas to others should not be merely an attempt to forcefully change their opinion to match your own. Instead, we should try to learn more about the situation/issue by listening to each other, and appreciating/respecting the many different points of view.

For example, when someone presents a fact to support their argument which belittles your own, try not to immediately find an excuse or a comeback - instead have a good think about the implications of that fact, and then reasses the validity of your argument (and alter if necessary)

Anyway, i love a good debate, and i'm sure we can avoid reducing ourselves to petty name-calling and fighting.

You can't believe everything you read. Likewise, YOU CAN'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK!!!

[ 25 September 2002, 14:17: Message edited by: falloutboy ]


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:That very point had been debated before, this is a socail section, you can talk about pretty much whatever you want. As long as the mods allow it that is. I think the Anti War thread went for like 18+ pages

War solves more than one would thing, infact we are all where we are today due to war!

The biggest problem in the world today is not war, polution, or world hunger. It is our ideals, the west sees the east as pour becuase there arnt 4 tvs in every house and 3 cars for every 2 drivers. I have seen places that make me wonder how can peole live like this, and in reality they are way more happy than I. Sure they seem poor, to me, but to them in their society they are rich and in some ways they are richer than all of us.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:and now ray has seen the light

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Lets put it this way, I am in favor of war against Iraq and support the idea of getting rid of Sadam. I feel that all efforts with the exception of war have been tried an have failed.

I do not think that Bush (Sr or Jr) are fighting for oil or just to push people around. America isnt out to crontrole the world, we have enough trouble controling ourselves to try something like that. This whole world is out to get me scenerio that alot of people play off is just rediculous.

I wish life could be simple and we all hold hands and sing kumbiya but it cant. Sorry I exsist in a real world where there is pain and suffering. Where people use others to get ahead in life. I really really really wish that there was no war no problems. It cant happen, becuase of that people like me will stand up and fight to keep our countrymen safe.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:*pats ray on the back* but what if you don't like kumbiya, or thoses other annoying biblethumper induced songs

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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Maximus
member
Location: Upland, CA., USA
Member Since: 13th Dec 2001
Total posts: 250
Posted:Oh, really, Ray?
It's NOT all about oil?


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
No Mike, biowarfare is intentional, the small pox that infected some native Americans was not intentional. Hell I would be willing to bet that our ancestors didnt even know what a germ was let alone small pox!
.No, Ray. In the 1800's, the germ theory of disease was well establishe and they knew quite well what they were doing. It's written in a number of diaries.

The United States has done research into weaponizing anthrax and smallpox. We also invented nuclear weapons and we are the only country to have ever used them against another country.

We're hardly saints, you know.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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master sodium
member
Location: carson city, nevada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 536
Posted:now, I do agree that something needs to be done about saddam. I personally don't think he's a very trustworthy individual. my problem with the idea of a strike against iraq is the fact that we tried that before and he still lives, while alot of people died in the process. if he has chemical or biological weapons he would be very willing to use them if a strike happened, killing our fellow americans, possibly even ray, which I wouldn't want. bush has already stated that he wants to do more then just bomb, he does want to send in troops as well.

and I still believe war solves nothing. it only sends the problem away for a while, so it can come back on a larger scale. but I'm all for defending ourselves as much as neccesary.


you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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master sodium
member
Location: carson city, nevada
Member Since: 13th Apr 2002
Total posts: 536
Posted:and now a little humour to lighten things up. I saw it and though it kinda fit the topic-

The Saudi Ambassador to the UN has just finished giving a speech and walks out into the lobby where he meets President Bush.

They shake hands and as they walk the Saudi says, "You know, I have just one question about what I have seen in America."

President Bush says "Well your Excellency, anything I can do to help you, I will do."

The Saudi whispers "My son watches this show 'Star Trek' and in it there are Russians, and Blacks, and Asians, but never any Arabs. He is very upset. He doesn't understand why there are never any Arabs in Star Trek."

President Bush laughs, leans toward the Saudi, and whispers back, "It's because it takes place in the future...."


you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:In responce to the joke, in a Next Generation episode the chick chief security officer had to fight another chick, that was an arab culture.

hehe

America is not and has never been out to kill Sadam, remove from power yes, if that means killing, ohh well. Lifes a bitch aint it?

No Maximus it is not about oil! Get it through you head!

Well Mike you seem to have studied the use of small pox a lot more than I so I will take you word for it. Sorry I dont studie ever illness known to man. Thats your job, my job is to make sure your brothers in the field keep their jobs.

Germany was right behind us in the Nuke race. I shudder to think what could have happend if we lost that war. Can anyone say Hail Hitler?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Fallout Boy Says: quote: We all have the right to our own opinion (on any and every topic). But the entire point of expressing your ideas to others should not be merely an attempt to forcefully change their opinion to match your own. Instead, we should try to learn more about the situation/issue by listening to each other, and appreciating/respecting the many different points of view.

For example, when someone presents a fact to support their argument which belittles your own, try not to immediately find an excuse or a comeback - instead have a good think about the implications of that fact, and then reasses the validity of your argument (and alter if necessary) That's the smartest, most informed thing anyone has said on this entire thread! Well done.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Kurobei
member
Location: The Phire Kru
Member Since: 19th Aug 2002
Total posts: 786
Posted:[/qb][/QUOTE]Hmm thats funny it was the english that came and slaughtered the indians .[/QB][/QUOTE]

Vaperloc, if you're using that excuse you need to remember four things:

1. Your ancestors were most likely English which makes you as guilty as me.
2. As soon as the "invading" English set foot in America and claimed it as their own they became Americans, this was most likely before they started the slaughtering.
3. Not only England was to blame for the colonisation of America, if you are saying the English are to blame you are also accusing the Irish, Spanish, Italians, Jews, South Americans and countless other nationals that seeded America of the slaughter.
4. As I recal, General Custer and his troops was not English and his slaughter of American Indians was as unjust as anything the Europeans did.


whats up with all the limitations?

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:Um, I may be very mistaken here, but General Custer was himself slaughtered by the Indians at Little BigHorn.

Wounded Knee (as well as the death march which happened afterwards) would be the best example of how terribly the indians were treated by the Americans.

I have stayed away from this thread because speaking about politics in an open forum is a sure way to get everyone angry and that serves little purpose.

When the majority of people discuss volitile topics, the argument gets quickly forgotten as it degenerates from "I don't agree" to "You are an ass"
Its the argument which is the issue, not the arguer.
Thats a huge difference.

That being said, having been told to fuck off during a cyber-auction thread I am in the perfect frame of mind to weigh in here.

President Bush is an idiot. I don't mean simply that I disagree with his policies, I mean he is truly a stupid man. He is the kind of person who is probably great to have at a party or at a backyard BBQ, but not the guy I want running my country.
His father was limited too, but this Bush is special ed. stupid.

However, if Saddam does in fact have the kinds of biological weapons as the UN report claims, then someone must act to prevent their use. Its easy then to pass the buck and say "let some other country handle it" but who ultimately would?

I am not pro-war. I am by nature a live and let live kind of person. However, some wars need to be fought and need to be won.

World peace is a wonderful idea and in a perfect society we WOULD all be able to live together in harmony, but we are far from there at the moment. That also means we have to live defensively, which is the same way you drive a car. (well, except for my brother, but his reactions are way too slow..)

The last thing I want to say is this: Whatever the merits are of pacifism, none of us in this forum would be able to freely express our views had not somebody along the line paid the price for that freedom.

We all live in countries with someone with a gun at the gates to help protect that right.

Raph

(don't let the current location fool you, I'm a native New Yorker)


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Kurobei
member
Location: The Phire Kru
Member Since: 19th Aug 2002
Total posts: 786
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

Kurobei, what were we supposed to do, let comunisim take the whole middle east as well as aisa? Dont forget the many years that the Russian people suffered becuase of communisim. You wanted that fate for those other people? And they call me uncivilised.

I would much rather launch a mistle than send 40 men to their death. Should we just line up on either side of a field and go toe to toe? Please, technoligy saves the lives. Then again look at Vietnam, technology didnt do that much, flexibility is what allowed the VC to overcome our technology.

Look, your state of Isriale is not part of America you said yourself, "the allies" that includes every country on the winning side of WWII. Where do you get off saying that it is an American state?

Frankly I would love to see the world run out of oil, I love the idea of alternative fule. No lie no sarcasim. Have you seen the gas prices in California? Oil is not the reason that anyone is attacking anyone. You all so bent on a conspiricy. You hear something that one person says and you accept it willingly as gosple.

You shouldnt just go blabbing things that ole bob on the corner said. You want to talk about rape, lets talk about the men in Africa who are raping babies because they think it will cure them from AIDS!! Another thing, McDonalds doesnt have sweat shops, Nike, who knows. I am sure that there are some British companies with some scrupulous tactics. The only reason that you dont hear about them is becuase American people actually give a shit, they get angry over things like sweatshops. That is why when one is found it is on the news. You take a few bad apples and think that it represents the views of the whole damn country. And they call me closed minded.
.Ray - What the FCUK!?!?!?!?

I'll adress your points one by one:

1. Maybe you should have left them alone, what right has the US or indeed anyone to interfere with other contries policies because they fear that the result may effect their way of living?
Communism DOESN'T WORK in practice, the US could have well left everyone alone and things would have straightened themselves out besides, what good did it do when you tried to intervene with force? Hundreds of thousands dead on both sides for what? Land? Ideas? Beliefs? You're in the armed forces, you must have seen some Vietnam veterans at some point, do they look happy? Do they look like they're glad they intervened to stop the terrible spread of Communism? I don't think so.

2. Launching a missile won't send 40 men to their deaths. Launching a missile will sent 40,000 people to their deaths!! In war, technology kills far more than it saves. You want examples: FAE, Napalm, Agent Orange, Agent Blue, Minuteman, Titan II, Trident II, Polaris, Harpoon, Tomahawk, Paveway, Sidewinder, Sparrow, Phoenix, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, Tigerfish, M-16, M-60, M-249, M1A1, AH-64, AH-1W........ I could go on all these machines and tools have ONE thing in common, they're ALL designed to kill, maim, destroy, damage!!
America didn't loose the Vietnam war purely because of the superior tactics of the Viet Cong, most US troops didn't even want to be there!!
The VC won because they were fighting more than just a war in some far-away country, they were fighting for their rights, their freedom, their homes, their children, their lives, their country.

3. As for the Israeli issue, who was supreme commander of the Allied forces? Eisenhower.
Who's decision was it ultimately what the Allies did? The supreme Allied commander.
Why did the Allies decide to give Palestine to the Jews? So they could have a cushty little front line ally in the Middle East.

4. I'm sorry to say this Ray but OPEN YOUR EYES; it's all about oil, what the hell else would it be about, why do you think all this stuff is kicking off in the Middle East? Cause that nasty kid Bin Laden stole Bush's candy bar?! Of course its about oil you fool, if there was oil on the moon there'd be trouble there, Western governments are shit-scared about running out of oil, that's why petrol/gasoline prices have risen, governments want to tax it as much as they can before it all runs out!! Believe me, it's no conspiracy, I wish it was but people are fighting over who gets to suck the planet dry and keep all the goo.

5. As for men in Africa raping babies let's talk, I haven't heard that before, where did you hear/read/discover this information?
As we're on the subject of Africa how about Nestl? They told mothers in African nations not to breast feed their childern because out of the goodness of their hearts they were going to give them free bottled milk. Then they turn around after all the milk has been consumed and said we want payment for all this, if you can't pay, you'll work for us. McDonals may not have sweatshops, I didn't say they had, I was mearly pointing out that the three worst money-grabbing, power-hungry corporations in the world were US based. As for you not being sue if Nike has sweatshops, WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!? Nike BLATENTLY has sweatshops in Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos some would say its the Americans striking back becasue of the humiliation they suffered at the end of the Vietnam war, I don't belive this however but you can see how some people would belive this.
There are also HUNDREDS of dodgy British companies who employ scrupulous tactics and a sweatshop workforce to produce their products!!!

Oh, one last thing Ray, you said you were sorry it came to the US dropping two Hydrogen bombs on Japan.....It didn't COME to that at all, far worse situations have been resolved without the use of Nuclear weapons, I seem to recal someone mentioning the Cold War...

PS - Raph, I have to appologise about the language of my partner, I'll have words.

[ 25 September 2002, 20:48: Message edited by: Kurobei ]


whats up with all the limitations?

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:I would just like to say that taht has got to be the longest ever post on the history or home of poi

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well I was talking about the average infantry platoon size. Your right though my numbers were low, guess optimisim is out this year. And trust me I am quite familier with many many of those weapons you listed. Several of them I fix on a reguler basis. I have even seen the results of the use of those weapons on humans. Thankfully not first hand, trust me I know all to well what they can do!

Bull shit that the VC were fighting for rights, you have no rights in a communistic society.
Frankly I dont want to be in cofertable Iwakuni Japan let alone the sticky jungles of Vietnam!

You are full of conspiriacies. Isrial is not a US state nor is it anything but an alli. To say anything else is an insult to Isrial and the US.

Where do you get off saying that McDonalds is money grabbing, sounds to me like your a BK fan!

I never heard about Nestle and check CNN and BBC for the baby rape thing.

Actually the Cold war was nothing but tence years. It was not a war!!! It just has that name, frankly it was nothing more than an arms race between Communisim and the rest of the world. Every country out there that had the means built up armies and arsenals during that time. Not just America.

What about the Batan death march? Ever here of that? The Japanesse killed more INNOCENT people in their traump across the pacific than the US did with those two A bombs!! Bet you didnt know that! Hell most Japanesse dont know that.

Communisim doesnt work your right, in a perfect world it would. Look at China, its people have no rights. You say we should have just let it go. Guess what, we all would be like that if we hadnt. YOU CANT DENY THAT!!! Sure war is hell, sure people dieing sucks, we wish there was no need for it. There is! Because of men like Ho Chi Min, Stallen, Hitler. Because we dont live in a perfect world that is why atrocities in the past happend. That is why 16 people died last week from a scuicide bomber. It doesnt make sence but that is life. Drugs dont make things better, there is no escape from an inperfect world.

You have no proof for you claims on oil, I do believe that every country out there depends on it. Yours, mine and then you stick Bush in the middle as a scapegoat.

Your so afraid of what could happen that it drives you insaine. You realise that you cant controle what happens around you and you want to run and hide, only you realsie you cant do that because you cant hide from life, only live it.

You fry your brain thinking about what you can do, and then like magic it comes to you. Blame someone! So you look to the biggest dog on the block and blame him!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kurobei
member
Location: The Phire Kru
Member Since: 19th Aug 2002
Total posts: 786
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Well I was talking about the average infantry platoon size. Your right though my numbers were low, guess optimisim is out this year. And trust me I am quite familier with many many of those weapons you listed. Several of them I fix on a reguler basis. I have even seen the results of the use of those weapons on humans. Thankfully not first hand, trust me I know all to well what they can do!

Bull shit that the VC were fighting for rights, you have no rights in a communistic society.
Frankly I dont want to be in cofertable Iwakuni Japan let alone the sticky jungles of Vietnam!

You are full of conspiriacies. Isrial is not a US state nor is it anything but an alli. To say anything else is an insult to Isrial and the US.

Where do you get off saying that McDonalds is money grabbing, sounds to me like your a BK fan!

I never heard about Nestle and check CNN and BBC for the baby rape thing.

Actually the Cold war was nothing but tence years. It was not a war!!! It just has that name, frankly it was nothing more than an arms race between Communisim and the rest of the world. Every country out there that had the means built up armies and arsenals during that time. Not just America.

What about the Batan death march? Ever here of that? The Japanesse killed more INNOCENT people in their traump across the pacific than the US did with those two A bombs!! Bet you didnt know that! Hell most Japanesse dont know that.

Communisim doesnt work your right, in a perfect world it would. Look at China, its people have no rights. You say we should have just let it go. Guess what, we all would be like that if we hadnt. YOU CANT DENY THAT!!! Sure war is hell, sure people dieing sucks, we wish there was no need for it. There is! Because of men like Ho Chi Min, Stallen, Hitler. Because we dont live in a perfect world that is why atrocities in the past happend. That is why 16 people died last week from a scuicide bomber. It doesnt make sence but that is life. Drugs dont make things better, there is no escape from an inperfect world.

You have no proof for you claims on oil, I do believe that every country out there depends on it. Yours, mine and then you stick Bush in the middle as a scapegoat.

Your so afraid of what could happen that it drives you insaine. You realise that you cant controle what happens around you and you want to run and hide, only you realsie you cant do that because you cant hide from life, only live it.

You fry your brain thinking about what you can do, and then like magic it comes to you. Blame someone! So you look to the biggest dog on the block and blame him!The VC were fighting for their rights to be a Communist country and the the US were scared of the "domino effect" (which we now know would never have actually happened) which is why they got involved, are you saying the Vietnamese people cant even have that right?

Israel is not actually a state of the US, of course I know that, it was the play on words I was refering to: "The STATE of Israel".

I get of right about here, as I've pointed out, McDonalds is one of the three worst corporations in the world for unhealthy morals and greed. All fast food corporations are the same it just so happens that McDonalds is the worst one!!

Will check out CNN & BBC, nice one!!

The Cold war was given the name for two reasons, Cold as in it was more a war of intelligence and thought, there was not actually any "hot" action and Cold because winter is cold, Nuclear winter that is!! Both the West and the USSR were threatning the other with Nuclear destruction, the only reason that no one pushed the button is because they knew they would destroy the planet and everything on it!!!

Communism doesn't work at all except in theory, Socialism works but its slightly different to Communism, besides, the political scene is actualy a circle, Democracy and Communism are so alike its unreal!! Russia was never really Communist when it became the USSR, that's why it was called the USSR and not the USCR!!

I think you may be trying to avert the attention from the facts here:

1. Without oil the Western world as we know it would grind to a halt.
2. Oil will run out within the next decade (or thereabouts)
3. Without oil, the West will loose it's influence
4. Without influence we will no longer be the domineering force in the world
5. Without that, other countries will have a chance to develop above us
6. The West could not bear to see another country be more developed

The US, Europe and Australia are the worst places for this power-hungry activity.

Ho Chi Minh did not want to rule the world under the mighty fist of Communism, he wanted to unite his country and he saw Western (UK & French) interference as a hindrance to this, just like the American war of Independance, the US no longer felt it wanted to be ruled by the British so it fought a war and won it on its own, you didnt see anyone else sticking their noses in and saying Ohh no, the US has got to be ruled by Britain otherwise think of all the bad things that could happen!!
The reason America won its Independance from Britain is the same reason the VC won its freedom from American intervention, the people were fighting more than a war, they were fighting for freedom.
You say that if you left it alone we'd all be like them now, well the US intervined and still lost and are we all Communists now? No, because the "Domino effect" the US government feared so much never existed.

You'll also notice that the American Embassy in Dehli is located on Ho Chi Minh street, quite ironic don't you think?

Mankind is probably at its most stupidest at the moment, never have we been so hellbent on destroying ourselves than now, but it doesnt matter, if we dont blow the planet apart with our stupid little squabbles and wars then the human race will all be dead in a few thousand years anyway when the next ice age comes.........an ice age we created!!!!!!! There is no hiding, no denying, it will happen and theres not a thing anyone can do about it.

But back to the main issue of this thread; Iraq.
Like I said before, whilst I dont agree with Saddams veiws and policies or the way he carries things out, I dont think we should just go in and bomb him, we dont bomb him, we bomb hospitals and schools and civillians, maybe because he's hiding behind them or putting military instalations near populous areas but we still kill innocent Iraqi people who have been oppressed enough!!! You cannot kill the beast by scratching the skin, you need to dive in and find the core of the evil, destroy it from within but that takes effort and thinking about it, far easier to send in some F-15's to bomb some airfields or shoot down some aircraft.

Ray, you serve your country with the USMC, you go where others dont want to go and do stuff they dont want to do and I'm quite sure you would die for your country but it's you guys that take all the shit, literally, I know I wouldnt want to be in your boots (excuse pun), there was a time when I thought tearing round some country in a jeep shooting at suff would have been the best thing in the world but now I think about all the shit that war and confronation cause and I dont like it any more.
You have to question what's going on and not follow blindly which is unfortunately what the military does to you, the people in charge need to know that the troops will do what they're told, when they're told and not question it.

It's a tough issue to debate over and I can appreciate your views completely, you just need to question what's going on a bit more.


whats up with all the limitations?

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:My problem is I can't let a point lie, and I've too much time on my hands.

It's not about oil? Oil is a big, big factor in all this. Don't believe me? How about this guy:
"They know we own their country ... we dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need." - Brigadier-General William Looney, director of the bombing of Iraq.

The US is the most wasteful country on the planet and uses the most oil. That's why we all turn round to the US and ask it to improve for the sake of the world. It's not a scapegoat so we can continue as we are. Other countries across the globe, including the EU nations, have agreed to improve but the US hasn't. Surely the largest and most powerful nation in the world, the so called 'Leader', should act maturely and use it's incredible resources to reduce it's destruction of the world and lead the way to a cleaner future? Yes, we blame the US for being an oil guzzling polluter, because it is. Jut like be blame other countries for the pollution they cause.

lightbug - I said read every post as your post was a reply to the first 2 posts and ignore the rest of the thread. It's a discussion forum, and that means you've got to read through to where the discussion is to join in.

"yes the united states puts people into power and tries to set up some sort of order in there crazy lives.." - Sorry, but if you think the US interferes out of some altruistic concern for other countries citizens then you're very mistaken. The US puts in place governments or dictatorships beneficial to it's own interests and profits for it's companies. In many, if not most, cases this causes instability and is detrimental to the people of that country. The US acts on selfish reasons.

It's a myth that the Iraqi people will welcome the US troops when they invade. Any US action will be against their country and like most people they're a patriotic and proud people, who have suffered for over a decade from US enforced sanctions. They've seen their children die from treatable diseases because the US has blocked shipments of crucial medicines. They are Iraqi and they are Arabs, and many do not want an arrogant, selfish western power dictating to them just as much as they don't want Saddam. If Saudi troops invaded it might be a different story.

And the people of Iraq know the US is weak willed. They know that once the US army sustains a few casualties they'll get scared of public opinion and pull out. They know once they've done what they wanted to do the US will leave the country to fall apart. They know that if they rise up the US will most likely not support them and that the US is likely to stand by while the Iraqi forces ruthlessly squash the rebellion (or in the north the Turkish forces who have already stated their plans to squash any Kurdish uprising). Why? Because all this has happen before during the Gulf war and Afghanistan.

In your opinion the problem is people won't stand up for themselves? Reality check! It's not that simple! In many countries if you speak up against the government you find yourself dead the next day or prison being beaten up. You can't stand up for yourself because you and your family will be persecuted! The jails of some countries are full of political prisoners who stood up for themselves and faced the price.

What you say about Israel shows your lack of understanding. The Jews haven't been there as long as the Palestinians. Israel was created as a state and almost everyone living there is an immigrant. The Palestinians were given 22% of what was once their country. 22%! However they have never had control of that land themselves. And now 40% of that land is controlled by illegal Israel settlements. And that 40% of the land is the prime farming land.

And they're fighting over a tiny piece of a huge continent! Reality check 2! A continent isn't one country. It's not like other countries are going to say "Have that bit of land, we don't need it!". Mexico could do with a bit more land, why doesn't the US give them Southern California? Palestine is over crowded and many areas lack enough water. Every bit of land is needed.

Ray. You've been humiliated before. But what about if every day of your life you and everyone you know were reduced to 2nd class citizens with few rights. What if a 20 minute journey took 7 hours, every day. The humiliation is not at their own hands you idiot! It's enforced on them daily! Can you not see that a suicide bomber must have experienced so much hurt and hate against him that he had no hope at all. Can you not imagine what it take to turn an ambulance worker into someone with no hope who is prepared to die just to obtain some revenge for the evil committed against them.

Communism? The middle east isn't communist! You're letting old brain washing dictate your thinking again. "You all so bent on a conspiracy. You hear something that one person says and you accept it willingly as gosple." That conspiracy brain shutdown trigger again. Get over it. I hear many opinions, I read a lot of different news sources. CNN to Indymedia. I talk to people. I get an informed opinion and I happen to think it's a good one, which is why and how I can argue it so much. And I'm stubborn

Ray: That Star Trek thing, I'm sure it was an African based culture. Cultural brainwashing: Look, African's so uncivilized they enjoy watching women fight each other.

That Africa baby rape thing. I'm sure it happens everyday and everyone in Africa does it. Just like on every street in America right now a kid is getting murdered for his shoes, half of Congress is getting sucked off by an intern and kids are mowing each other down at high school. Ray, don't let single stories prejudice you against a whole continent.

Yes, the Japanese killed countless people. But how does that justify killing so many innocent Japanese civilians?

Yes, look at China. It's people have no rights. It's a communist country. And the US is very happy to do business with it. We're even staging the Olympics there! It's hypocrisy. For the US government money over powers their consciences almost every time.

Maximus: nice story!

Thanks falloutboy and Fire_Emanator.


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