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Forums > Social Discussion > Why Europe is better than the U.S.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:This line is from Europe's proposed Constitution:

1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.

biggrin


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:*smile* Xopher, I love the last paragraph! IT sums up what's going on in this country so perfectly.

It's why I want to take Mand, myself and my cat, and move Elsewhere....Canada would take us, right???


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Xopher, okay, now I do understand a bit more about what you are saying. And I do agree with what you said in your first paragraph, thank you for making yourself a bit clearer.

However I am not against a law saying that homosexuals have the right to get married, I am against a law that says that I no longer have the right to consider their lifestyle as wrong according to my religion.

I do find it humorous, if you follow the history of the church, how we went from persecution by tyrants to being considered tyrants persecuting others. In all honesty though, in the US the "Christian Majority", have the exact same right to make laws and lobby for laws as do such organizations as the Anti-Christian Liberal Union (ACLU) and KKK. That is part of politics; different assemblies get together to try to get laws passed that are beneficial to everyone (in their opinion).

If we did not have a system like that then you would not see so many environmental laws, you would not see women voting let alone in high ranking positions in the government and you would not see anybody with a different skin color other than white in the government or holding a position in a company much higher than clerk.

The fact that minorities and majorities can battle it out for a law in court is what makes the US government and system of government so great. Unlike some European S. American, African and Asian countries where those of the opposing party are sometimes killed in order to circumvent them from accomplishing their goals.


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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Eh...I was going to jump into the debate a bit more, but opted not to...so I'm removing the text of my reply...it's not worth it.



I will say the separation of church and state was one of the best concepts laid down by the US's founding fathers. Religion should not play a role in the government. Everyone should be free to believe what they want, so long as their beliefs don't infringe on another's rights. No one religion is better than another in the eyes of the government.

EDITED_BY: SpitFire (1109368916)


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:This is drifting off into another gay marriage debate. I don't want to go there. I'm against laws that say anything about what a religion can or can't believe.

I think your calling the ACLU the Anti-Christian Liberal Union means that this just crossed the line out of civilized discourse, and I therefore have now lost interest in discussing this further.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: SpitFire

Eh...I was going to jump into the debate a bit more, but opted not to...so I'm removing the text of my reply...it's not worth it.

I will say the separation of church and state was one of the best concepts laid down by the US's founding fathers. Religion should not play a role in the government. Everyone should be free to believe what they want, so long as their beliefs don't infringe on another's rights. No one religion is better than another in the eyes of the government.



ditto

soapbox HEAR HEAR!!!! there really is no place for religion in politics. they should be completely seperated...


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Written by:


That's the fight the Christists (who are no more good Christians than Osama bin Laden is a good Moslem) are fighting, and that's why they're unAmerican and evil.





Sorry, but that was the end of civilised discourse in my opinion.



Actually I think it was,

Written by:
I think you've over reacted to this for 2 reasons:

1) You don't like the fact that someone said there aren't many Americans in Europe. Get over that - whatever nationality you are you'll find people making little quips and bigger insults against it.

2) You're opposed to this because you're opposed to the ideal it represents - freedom and equality for those you'd rather not accept. This is also something you have to accept - your faith and opinions are one in a multitude of different global faiths and opinions, and many of us in the world, and the overwhelming majority of this board think you're wrong. Therefore, in an attempt to preserve harmony, I suggest you don't pick such topics as battles to fight.





that ended civilised discourse.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)

2. The PROPOSED European Constitution may not pass in that form. I predict that Spain and Italy (at least) will object to the "sexual orientation" clause.



Spain? That country that...
1) Just legalized gay marriage and
2) Just ratified said constitution?
ubblol


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: dafunkymahn


However I am not against a law saying that homosexuals have the right to get married, I am against a law that says that I no longer have the right to consider their lifestyle as wrong according to my religion.





And shazam! nobody is proposing the latter...just the former! Problem solved! biggrin



Written by: dafunkymahn




I do find it humorous, if you follow the history of the church, how we went from persecution by tyrants to being considered tyrants persecuting others. In all honesty though, in the US the "Christian Majority", have the exact same right to make laws and lobby for laws as do such organizations as the Anti-Christian Liberal Union (ACLU) and KKK.







Let me get this clear:

You are comparing the ACLU, an organization that believes in upholding the bill of rights, to the KKK, an organization that believes in lynchings and tarring-and-feathering?



Did I miss anything? confused


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Nope, you did not miss a thing. Any other questions?

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:hmm, yeah, I got a question: howcome you wanted to join this board?
from all of your posts 90% are about religion, and 3 about futile stuff. and you have yet to post in anything about Poi or Staff...
and why would you study filosphy and politics, when you have such a set view on things? I'd say that both studies require an open mind.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:You know, I enjoy spinning, but I have found a lot of the posts on poi (I do not know how to spin staff) to be above me and it honestly intimidates me a little. I do not feel that I have much to contribute when so many people are talking about stuff that boggles my mind. It is kind of like when you are at a party that you do not know too many people and your pondering how to be included. Of course you make a few laps around the party listening and when you find a subject of discussion that you know a bit about or something that looks entertaining, you stop and put in your quip and move on. You do not walk up to a subject that you are clearly out done on and jump in with both feet.

The site was actually referred to me by a good friend Leslie, I mean it has some great learning videos and I am still a fledgling when it comes to poi so I guess I tend to talk about what I know or believe vs. something that I am not very solid on.

If it upsets the people of the board I will try to contribute more in other areas instead of prattle on back here.


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Viva Espaa!

Apparently the people organizing the 'No' campaign in Spain were objecting because the constitution didn't go far enough!

Unfortunately the constitution will fail in other countries, and not about anything specific like this clause, but rather from those who don't understand Europe and feel threatened by a more integrated and unified European political machine. Across the UK you'll find a majority who see the constitution as us giving away all our powers and sovereignty (does that have and meaning these days!) to the French and Germans. Many people have trouble thinking larger than their petty concerns and prejudices.

And I'm not going there on the gay marriage thing, it's been done before and trying to change someone's mind is like the Victorians trying to 'cure' people of homosexuality.
More tea Mr Wilde?


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:"More tea Mr Wilde?"

ubblol


Getting to the other side smile

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:Written by: dafunkymahn

You know, I enjoy spinning, but I have found a lot of the posts on poi (I do not know how to spin staff) to be above me and it honestly intimidates me a little. I do not feel that I have much to contribute when so many people are talking about stuff that boggles my mind.

If it upsets the people of the board I will try to contribute more in other areas instead of prattle on back here.



I know just what you mean about HoP, it can be quite intimidating with all these wonderfully intelligent, informed, witty people around who all seem to know each other so well.
But don't disappear and don't stop having your opinions - just expect to have them challenged and be prepared to have to support your beliefs and also question them. Usually HoPpers are sensitive to others' point of view and won't aim to destroy you, tho' that has happened and it's not at all pleasant.

I don't happen to agree with your views, but this IS a free country and you are allowed to hold them, just not enforce them or expect others to agree with you. By and large we're a liberal lot on HoP and that's the way we like it. smile


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:yeah, I had quite some beef to swallow in the vegetarian thread for a while as well (I just love how that metaphore turned out).
I only did a search on your posts to see what your opinions were on other topics, because I know we'll keep on disagreeing on this one. it gives you a better view on who the person on the other end is.
the way how I protect myself from these kinds of discussions is to just stay away from the social discussion platform. easier on the mind. although at times I can't resist the urge.... wink


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: ...Lightning...

Written by: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)

2. The PROPOSED European Constitution may not pass in that form. I predict that Spain and Italy (at least) will object to the "sexual orientation" clause.



Spain? That country that...
1) Just legalized gay marriage and
2) Just ratified said constitution?
ubblol



WHAT?!?!?

Well. Shet mah mouf.

That's right, they just elected a leftie government there. I forgot. Stupid, stupid Xopher. [beats self with empty bottle of Mr. Clean]


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yeah, I've always said that if Spain could just get around to realizing that they're actually a civilized, first-world, Western European nation, they'd do great.

Looks like they noticed. biggrin

Que viva Espaa!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:If only the US would get around to becoming a civilized nation, we'd be all set!

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Tell me about it.

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Well... I could tell jokes about Jersey and Texas all day long but the fact that you do not like where you live there would be no fun it. wink



It is your right to have the opinion that you do, but if things are so bad, why do you stay? I am not asking to be rude, I just never understood a persons desire to stay entrenched in a lifestyle or place that they sit there and complain about and yet either A. do nothing to fix it, or B. do nothing to leave or get out of the place/situation/lifestyle.



Telling the whole world why you think your country sucks really does not do anything to make anybody's day better. Only two things can come from that, you will either get props from those who agree with you or you will offend those that do not. Neither one of those outcomes really means anything because nothing has changed!



I am not saying that you do not do anything, I do not know you so it would foolish for me to claim something like that, but I do know that bad mouthing something many people have died to preserve, many people have given up good solid relationships with their families to build, it really does nothing but make me sick.



True you did not ask them to do it, but that is what makes it a sacrifice they did not have to be asked they did it willingly. They gave you the respect when they made their sacrifices, it seems that the least you could do is show them a tiny bit of respect and try to change your situation/place/lifestyle instead of acting like a child who does not want to eat their peas.



If you are trying to change your situation/place/lifestyle, great I applaud your decision to try to do something to, at the very least, improve your station in life; however it would still be nice if you would show a little more respect to those who have given respect to you first.



I am sorry if you found that to be rude, but I found the above few comments to be rude so I guess we are equal. peace


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Why do I stay? For now, it's for the medical training.

After that, I may not stay.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Hey that is up to you; at least you are improving your lot in life, perhaps you will go on to great things, things you might not have accomplished here in the States. Best of luck. No joke no sarcasm, best of luck.


Oh medical question I have always wanted to ask... How come, no matter how much you wiggle and no matter how much you dance there is always a drop that will fall in your pants?


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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:I would like to think that most people stay because they harbor hope that it can be fixed. (I know in reality most Americans are either broke or delusional about the state of the union).

I try to help fix the problems, because I think it's a great country and is worth saving, though it has a strange culture and a total nimrod for a leade--I mean president. I write letters, attend public meetings when I can, but most people don't, which is tragic. It means they're either lazy or satisfied with what they have.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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dafunkymahn


member


Total posts: 54
Posted:Prometheus you are absolutely right, your are trying something, it is tragic that most people do not attend public meeting, it is tragic that most people do not even think about trying to fix things they just sit on their couch watching OC and complain about why life cannot be like that.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:A lot of folks I know who complain do try to change things...by voting, by attending protests, by lobying politicians.

Unfortunately, it's a long road, and often politicians don't have the little folks in mind when they make laws, and what not. Lobying groups are incredibly powerful, as are corporations.

I'm doing something to change my situation. I've got a wonderful partner that I am planning on spending the rest of my life with, but it is almost impossible for us to do that here in the US since she is a UK citizen. We're actively working on getting to Canada. My priority in my life is my relationship. If I have to move to another country to make it work, then that's what I'll do.

The sad thing? I shouldn't have to do that...this is the land of the free, afterall...or it is supposed to be.

Most people I know do what they can to change the system...either by voting, writing their congress - folk, or what not.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:reasons to stay in texas or new jersey or where ever? because a place is more than its politics. Becuase of friends, family, jobs, or a bazzilion other reasons.

Texas is a great place, just don't mind the (a)moral maj(min)ority and their (over)inflated ego and the lawers and the oil tycoons buying off the state and national government. Change the names around a bit, and modify exactly how much influence they have on world politics, and just about anywhere has the same problems. There is a reason Texas is the second most populous state in the Union and has the highest influx of people moving to it - because it is a hell of a lot better place than people stereotype it to be. And yes, George W. Bush sounds like a moron even to people from Texas - who talks like that anyway?


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:smile

Getting to the other side smile

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:I don't know who you think has been disrespectful, DFM. Until you visit Canada you have no idea what a truly civilised country looks like; I know I didn't. (Or some countries in Europe, but in the Western Hemisphere you're pretty well limited to Canada.) No disrespect intended to anyone; I just think we could look North for a good example of what this country could be.



In some ways. Not others. I'll take the US Constitution over any other such document in the world. I'm what I call a Constitutional Patriot. That's why I'm outraged at people who think it's OK to just ignore certain bits of it, if "circumstances warrant." Circumstances do NOT warrant; the fundamental principles of our nation, the things that make (or, sad to say, made) us a great nation are embodied in that document, and they supersede any circumstance.



Yes, I know that means some bad guys will get away. And I'm speaking as someone who would have died in the World Trade Center had I gone to work early that day (as I did the day before), and who lost 20 people who I knew at least to talk to; one of them sat directly across the cube row from me. So I'm not minimizing the sacrifice of keeping our principles.



As to why I don't leave: I briefly considered moving to Canada, as did enough people that the Canadian Consulate actually started holding information sessions in border cities on how to emigrate. Also, I'd met a man from Halifax and gone head-over-heels; when that proved not to be mutual my motivation dropped somewhat, but that wasn't the real reason I decided to stay.



IT'S MY GODDAM COUNTRY, DAMN IT!!!!!



When the Bushies imprison people indefinitely without trial, condone or cover up the mistreatment of prisoners (writing memos so narrowly defining torture that much of the behavior of Nazis wouldn't qualify), attempt to suppress the vote in areas with high minority populations, etc. etc. ad nauseam, THEY are being undemocratic, unAmerican, unpatriotic, not me when I criticize them for it.



THEY are destroying the fundamental principles that made this country great. THEY are destroying our reputation in the rest of the world. THEY have already sacrificed our lives (all those soldiers, for whom I have great respect), probably our fortunes (out-of-control deficits), and certainly our sacred honor on the altar of Bushism.



And one of his core constituencies is the so-called "Christian" right. I'm not a Christian, but my Christian friends have pointed out that Jesus talks much more about economics (in ways that Karl Marx would find radical) than about social issues, and is completely silent on the topic of homosexuality. The "Christian" right advocate positions that are specifically denounced in the Gospels.



If you want to see why I believe they are not good Christians, I refer you to Micah 6. Particularly Micah 6:8.



I will stay and fight these people for my country, which was founded, not on Christian principles as Bush keeps saying (hence his label as Liar-in-Chief) but on Enlightenment ones, and mostly by Deists and Atheists (to the extent there's a practical difference). I will fight by every legal means, because I respect the law, while they do not. I will fight until they come and drag me from my bed at night, and no, I very seriously do not put that past them.

EDITED_BY: Xopher (aka Mr. Clean) (1109702924)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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weeleigh


weeleigh

look a rainbow!
Location: Waterford, CT

Total posts: 237
Posted:I would have to agree with almost all of that, Xopher. Especially since I am a Christian, and I don't understand how anyone who believes in the same God that I do could ever possibly vote for Bush. He goes against everything my religion says, and then ends with "God Bless America" and makes me want to throw up a little... frown

But, in an attempt to lighten the mood around here a little, I thought I'd throw this in. I'm sure most of you have already seen it, but it still amuses me.

http://billandkent.com/blog/blogimages/constitution-of-gwbush.jpg
br>
biggrin


"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth."

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I feel sorry for you, Weeleigh. It must suck to be a member of such a maligned religion. Especially when the true Christian religion is truly beautiful at its core.

Jesus preached love, humility, and non-judgementalism. He was THE original hippie. Long hair and beard included! biggrin He was also a party animal (wine from water? Come on!). Cool dude, he was.

I wonder what his reaction would be to those who loudly proclaim themselves "Christians"...and what their reaction would be to him.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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