Forums > Social Discussion > Six "Days"
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Posted:
One of my good friends, I will call him David, does not share my particular views of faith and we are constantly debating the Bible and like topics. He brought up, multiple times, that the six days of creation in Genesis 1 were not six consecutive twenty-four hour days. Until a little while ago I always stood as the opposition to this theory.
Here is what I have thought of.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, 2 Now the earth was formless and empty darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Day one: Light and dark were made, Gen 1:3-5
Then there was evening and morning, the first day.
At this point the earth was still formless (meaning not spherical) and the sun had not been created, only light and dark. How can there be a 24 hour day when the earth is formless? Well there are two answers to this question, the first is obviously, "It is God he can make a day 24 hours long or 240 hours long", and the second is "That it could not happen".
Well here is where I feel the second answer is wrong and the first answer will only be proven correct if God tells us that it was a literal 24 hours. What defines a day? Well a day is defined as on revolution of a planet on its axis. It does not matter if it is Earth, or Mars one day on either planet is one revolution. Now a Martian day, differs from an Earth day. So, how long would a day be if the Earth stopped rotating? Would there still be a 24 hour day or would we all get stuck on a particular day? (If so I hope it would be a Saturday
)
If the Earth did stop rotating, and time was not something we calculated any more, what would define a day?
The simple answer would be that a day would end when we rested, or slept.
Now the Bible does say that God did rest, therefore, his day was done. Or in some translations, evening and morning.
And leads us to the conclusion that it does not matter how many hours a day is, to God the day was done when He rested. It also can be concluded that the day was done when morning came.
So the debate over a 24 hour day of creation falls useless because there is no way to gage time, yet a day would still exist even without time.
In my opinion the Bible stands accurate when it talks of the six days of creation.
Even if you do not believe in creation it is still an interesting thing to think over.
One of my good friends, I will call him David, does not share my particular views of faith and we are constantly debating the Bible and like topics. He brought up, multiple times, that the six days of creation in Genesis 1 were not six consecutive twenty-four hour days. Until a little while ago I always stood as the opposition to this theory.
Here is what I have thought of.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, 2 Now the earth was formless and empty darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Day one: Light and dark were made, Gen 1:3-5
Then there was evening and morning, the first day.
At this point the earth was still formless (meaning not spherical) and the sun had not been created, only light and dark. How can there be a 24 hour day when the earth is formless? Well there are two answers to this question, the first is obviously, "It is God he can make a day 24 hours long or 240 hours long", and the second is "That it could not happen".
Well here is where I feel the second answer is wrong and the first answer will only be proven correct if God tells us that it was a literal 24 hours. What defines a day? Well a day is defined as on revolution of a planet on its axis. It does not matter if it is Earth, or Mars one day on either planet is one revolution. Now a Martian day, differs from an Earth day. So, how long would a day be if the Earth stopped rotating? Would there still be a 24 hour day or would we all get stuck on a particular day? (If so I hope it would be a Saturday
) If the Earth did stop rotating, and time was not something we calculated any more, what would define a day?
The simple answer would be that a day would end when we rested, or slept.
Now the Bible does say that God did rest, therefore, his day was done. Or in some translations, evening and morning.
And leads us to the conclusion that it does not matter how many hours a day is, to God the day was done when He rested. It also can be concluded that the day was done when morning came.
So the debate over a 24 hour day of creation falls useless because there is no way to gage time, yet a day would still exist even without time.
In my opinion the Bible stands accurate when it talks of the six days of creation.
Even if you do not believe in creation it is still an interesting thing to think over.
SILVER Member
Liquid Cow
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Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Posted:
Nice.
I'll have to remember next time I get into a discussion about the bible with a creationist
Nice.
I'll have to remember next time I get into a discussion about the bible with a creationist
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
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Posted:
so heres a thought!
[nice post by the way]
if we all live a hundred years we would be 876,000 hours old!.
so if a day was not infact 24 hours long but 240 hours long... how long would a year be?... if a year would be measured the same in using a 240 hour day as it is with a 24 hour day we would be dead at 36 and a half years old!... nice.
how long would our working day be?... would feel like working a whole year with no sleep all in one day! eeek scary thought.
*if the world was to stop spinning... every thing on earth would die. it is not only that the earth revolves on its axis, it also rotates around the sun, then what?... what if it stopped doing that too?*.. you could take this further but is there a point.
My feeling is this, we have scientists, they spend their lives caculating things like this and testing their theories for provability.
How can any believer not see that god did not infact make all of this, it is proven fact that all of this existed before out lords existance.
i will always go with facts rather than misconstrude tales from a time and time again translation of some guys story a few thousand years ago and all of the added extras that were added along the way to us in these days.
religion = war, people living in poverty, slavery and many bad things.... does that mean that president Bush is infact god?, back again just to try and prove another point? that he is better than all.
sorry if i seem so sceptical on religious topics, im not a believer... only other than that he actually did once walk this earth.
so heres a thought!
[nice post by the way]
if we all live a hundred years we would be 876,000 hours old!.
so if a day was not infact 24 hours long but 240 hours long... how long would a year be?... if a year would be measured the same in using a 240 hour day as it is with a 24 hour day we would be dead at 36 and a half years old!... nice.
how long would our working day be?... would feel like working a whole year with no sleep all in one day! eeek scary thought.
*if the world was to stop spinning... every thing on earth would die. it is not only that the earth revolves on its axis, it also rotates around the sun, then what?... what if it stopped doing that too?*.. you could take this further but is there a point.
My feeling is this, we have scientists, they spend their lives caculating things like this and testing their theories for provability.
How can any believer not see that god did not infact make all of this, it is proven fact that all of this existed before out lords existance.
i will always go with facts rather than misconstrude tales from a time and time again translation of some guys story a few thousand years ago and all of the added extras that were added along the way to us in these days.
religion = war, people living in poverty, slavery and many bad things.... does that mean that president Bush is infact god?, back again just to try and prove another point? that he is better than all.
sorry if i seem so sceptical on religious topics, im not a believer... only other than that he actually did once walk this earth.
member
54 posts
54 posts
Posted:
PK, it is just as hard to prove evolution as it is creation as the finite truth. Both require a degree of faith.
If anyone here has taken statistics in college or university, you will no doubt know that anything with the odds of 1x10 to the 50th power (sorry I do not know how to make a super script so I will write it out),
that is a chance of 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of happening,
(I think I wrote that down correctly)
or greater is considered impossible, mathematically. When I find my book that deals with evolution and the odds I will post an exact quote, but the odds of evolution being realistic are so far past 1x10 to the 50th, it is not even funny.
In a gambling situation if you put 1/1000 of a penny on those odds you would walk away with beyond trillions of dollars, or pounds, or francs or euros... needless to say you would be extremely rich
PK, you are not a believer, that is your call I will not try to preach to you or try to change your mind, I will only present my facts just as you present yours.
However in good fun here is a counter to your life clock PK.
If a say is say 240 hours, would that effect how many days a year is? Say the Earth takes 240 hours to make one rotation on it's axis, but it still travels around the sun at the same speed then a year (being 8,766 hours, 24 hours x 365.25 days) would only be 36 and a half days long. You would in fact reach 100 years old in only 3.18 years comparitivly. Or something like that, math was never my strong suit, I think I am right. Funny and interesting none the less.
PK, it is just as hard to prove evolution as it is creation as the finite truth. Both require a degree of faith.
If anyone here has taken statistics in college or university, you will no doubt know that anything with the odds of 1x10 to the 50th power (sorry I do not know how to make a super script so I will write it out),
that is a chance of 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of happening,
(I think I wrote that down correctly)
or greater is considered impossible, mathematically. When I find my book that deals with evolution and the odds I will post an exact quote, but the odds of evolution being realistic are so far past 1x10 to the 50th, it is not even funny.
In a gambling situation if you put 1/1000 of a penny on those odds you would walk away with beyond trillions of dollars, or pounds, or francs or euros... needless to say you would be extremely rich
PK, you are not a believer, that is your call I will not try to preach to you or try to change your mind, I will only present my facts just as you present yours.
However in good fun here is a counter to your life clock PK.
If a say is say 240 hours, would that effect how many days a year is? Say the Earth takes 240 hours to make one rotation on it's axis, but it still travels around the sun at the same speed then a year (being 8,766 hours, 24 hours x 365.25 days) would only be 36 and a half days long. You would in fact reach 100 years old in only 3.18 years comparitivly. Or something like that, math was never my strong suit, I think I am right. Funny and interesting none the less.
SILVER Member
member
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Location: San Francisco, USA
member
186 posts
Location: San Francisco, USA
Posted:
This whole issue has bugged me for years. God is god. If god is god, then he MADE time. AND everything. He exists somewhere far beyond the scope of what our puny mortal minds can comprehend, and his actions are not limited within such a limited framework. If he created everything, then he created ALL possibilities and all consequences, it's not as if he just plunks down the world and lets it run on its own like he doesn't know how it's going to turn out. God knows -everything- and made -everything-, right? So creation is effectively still going on, hasn't happened yet, is already done... is/was/willbe.... right. Since when do time measurements have any relevance at ALL next to a concept like that?
Don't try to take the Bible literally, people. There's 3 separate versions of Genesis as it is. It's a book, it contradicts itself-- plus it wasn't even written in our language, and it's been edited and changed who knows how many times over the centuries. What word do you suppose is being translated as 'day' and what did it really mean to begin with? Particularly if you're talking about any section written originally in Aramaic, which was a pictorial sort of language heavy on connotations, direct translation simply isn't possible.
And as for evolution... those crazy odds just refer to the likelihood of our world producing THIS exact arrangement we have now, which of course is insanely low. Same goes for whatever other arrangement might have come out. If you roll a 100-sided die, the chances of a 35 coming up is 1 in 100. Same goes for every single other number on there. That in no way reflects the likelihood that the die is actually rolling to begin with.
This whole issue has bugged me for years. God is god. If god is god, then he MADE time. AND everything. He exists somewhere far beyond the scope of what our puny mortal minds can comprehend, and his actions are not limited within such a limited framework. If he created everything, then he created ALL possibilities and all consequences, it's not as if he just plunks down the world and lets it run on its own like he doesn't know how it's going to turn out. God knows -everything- and made -everything-, right? So creation is effectively still going on, hasn't happened yet, is already done... is/was/willbe.... right. Since when do time measurements have any relevance at ALL next to a concept like that?
Don't try to take the Bible literally, people. There's 3 separate versions of Genesis as it is. It's a book, it contradicts itself-- plus it wasn't even written in our language, and it's been edited and changed who knows how many times over the centuries. What word do you suppose is being translated as 'day' and what did it really mean to begin with? Particularly if you're talking about any section written originally in Aramaic, which was a pictorial sort of language heavy on connotations, direct translation simply isn't possible.
And as for evolution... those crazy odds just refer to the likelihood of our world producing THIS exact arrangement we have now, which of course is insanely low. Same goes for whatever other arrangement might have come out. If you roll a 100-sided die, the chances of a 35 coming up is 1 in 100. Same goes for every single other number on there. That in no way reflects the likelihood that the die is actually rolling to begin with.
"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X
member
54 posts
54 posts
Posted:
Actually the book of Genesis when compared to such texts as the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the rest of the Old Testament, is found to be quite accurate. Direct translation is very possible. It was also original written in Hebrew not Aramaic
However you do bring up some good points about time's relevance concerning God and creation, however it is still fun talk about.
Actually the book of Genesis when compared to such texts as the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the rest of the Old Testament, is found to be quite accurate. Direct translation is very possible. It was also original written in Hebrew not Aramaic
However you do bring up some good points about time's relevance concerning God and creation, however it is still fun talk about.
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Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Well put.
Written by: Gnarly Cranium
And as for evolution... those crazy odds just refer to the likelihood of our world producing THIS exact arrangement we have now, which of course is insanely low. Same goes for whatever other arrangement might have come out. If you roll a 100-sided die, the chances of a 35 coming up is 1 in 100. Same goes for every single other number on there. That in no way reflects the likelihood that the die is actually rolling to begin with.
Well put.
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But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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"Last of The Lancers"
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Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
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Posted:
*throws the cat amongst the pigeons*
Sidereal Time
Sidereal Time literally means “star time”. The time we are used to using in our everyday lives is Solar Time. The fundamental unit of Solar Time is a Day: the time it takes the Sun to travel 360 degrees around the sky, due to the rotation of the Earth. Smaller units of Solar Time are just divisions of a Day:
1/24 Day = 1 Hour
1/60 Hour = 1 Minute
1/60 Minute = 1 Second
However, there is a problem with Solar Time. The Earth doesn't actually spin around 360 degrees in one Solar Day. The Earth is in orbit around the Sun, and over the course of one day, it moves about one Degree along its orbit (360 degrees/365.25 Days for a full orbit = about one Degree per Day). So, in 24 hours, the direction toward the Sun changes by about a Degree. Therefore, the Earth has to spin 361 degrees to make the Sun look like it has traveled 360 degrees around the Sky.
Astronomists are concerned with how long it takes the Earth to spin with respect to the “fixed” stars, not the Sun. So, we would like a timescale that removes the complication of Earth's orbit around the Sun, and just focuses on how long it takes the Earth to spin 360 degrees with respect to the stars. This rotational period is called a Sidereal Day. On average, it is 4 minutes shorter than a Solar Day, because of the extra 1 degree the Earth spins in a Solar Day. Rather than defining a Sidereal Day to be 23 hours, 56 minutes, we define Sidereal Hours, Minutes and Seconds that are the same fraction of a Day as their Solar counterparts. Therefore, one Solar Second = 1.00278 Sidereal Seconds.
The Sidereal Time is useful for determining where the stars are at any given time. Sidereal Time divides one full spin of the Earth into 24 Sidereal Hours; similarly, the map of the sky is divided into 24 Hours of Right Ascension. This is no coincidence; Local Sidereal Time (LST) indicates the Right Ascension on the sky that is currently crossing the Local Meridian. So, if a star has a Right Ascension of 05h 32m 24s, it will be on your meridian at LST=05:32:24. More generally, the difference between an object's RA and the Local Sidereal Time tells you how far from the Meridian the object is. For example, the same object at LST=06:32:24 (one Sidereal Hour later), will be one Hour of Right Ascension west of your meridian, which is 15 degrees. This angular distance from the meridian is called the object's Hour Angle.
so how would you explain from your theory if the world had 240 hour days how that would retrospectivly change Sidereal Time.
I was thinking just now, this could have devestational reprocussions on the life cycles of earth and it's inhabitants.
How would it affect the rest of the universe? other planets and stars .... and the 90% of black matter we will never see or understand!,,,, there could be some thing lurking in that 90%.
We live in a time where the universe is ballanced, ballenced in just the right way that we were given our existance from carbon particles millions of years ago. it is still ballenced in this day that we can exist as we have evolved to inhabit this globe in just the same was as the flora and fauna have.
To keep this ballence that we have right now and the length of the day did change then there are too many other out side structures that you would have to change to keep the ballance for every thing to still exist.
No one could tell me that if god was alive that he could do his he has the power!.... [crap] in my eyes... no man could do this, i believe in many things, but fact before fiction... we were born with imaginations, brains, voice, eyes ears, understanding, communication.... let me put this into perspective, you can lie? ... yes or no!, you can make up some untruths using your imagination? yes or no!, you can communicate to the
person beside you and tell hem exactly what you have just thought of in your head. you do this verbally. the second person hears what you have told him/her, that person can then make up his/her own mind if it is truth or not, write it in a book send it to many different people over the course of a few hundred years and then hide it for thousands of years after, how many people have rewritten that book?... did any one see them do it? how will any one else know that that origional story was truth?, or how many people changed the details of that story over the course of the books journey.
just some thing from my perspective, and preach all you like, i like to read others opinions you wont make an enemy.
*throws the cat amongst the pigeons*
Sidereal Time
Sidereal Time literally means “star time”. The time we are used to using in our everyday lives is Solar Time. The fundamental unit of Solar Time is a Day: the time it takes the Sun to travel 360 degrees around the sky, due to the rotation of the Earth. Smaller units of Solar Time are just divisions of a Day:
1/24 Day = 1 Hour
1/60 Hour = 1 Minute
1/60 Minute = 1 Second
However, there is a problem with Solar Time. The Earth doesn't actually spin around 360 degrees in one Solar Day. The Earth is in orbit around the Sun, and over the course of one day, it moves about one Degree along its orbit (360 degrees/365.25 Days for a full orbit = about one Degree per Day). So, in 24 hours, the direction toward the Sun changes by about a Degree. Therefore, the Earth has to spin 361 degrees to make the Sun look like it has traveled 360 degrees around the Sky.
Astronomists are concerned with how long it takes the Earth to spin with respect to the “fixed” stars, not the Sun. So, we would like a timescale that removes the complication of Earth's orbit around the Sun, and just focuses on how long it takes the Earth to spin 360 degrees with respect to the stars. This rotational period is called a Sidereal Day. On average, it is 4 minutes shorter than a Solar Day, because of the extra 1 degree the Earth spins in a Solar Day. Rather than defining a Sidereal Day to be 23 hours, 56 minutes, we define Sidereal Hours, Minutes and Seconds that are the same fraction of a Day as their Solar counterparts. Therefore, one Solar Second = 1.00278 Sidereal Seconds.
The Sidereal Time is useful for determining where the stars are at any given time. Sidereal Time divides one full spin of the Earth into 24 Sidereal Hours; similarly, the map of the sky is divided into 24 Hours of Right Ascension. This is no coincidence; Local Sidereal Time (LST) indicates the Right Ascension on the sky that is currently crossing the Local Meridian. So, if a star has a Right Ascension of 05h 32m 24s, it will be on your meridian at LST=05:32:24. More generally, the difference between an object's RA and the Local Sidereal Time tells you how far from the Meridian the object is. For example, the same object at LST=06:32:24 (one Sidereal Hour later), will be one Hour of Right Ascension west of your meridian, which is 15 degrees. This angular distance from the meridian is called the object's Hour Angle.
so how would you explain from your theory if the world had 240 hour days how that would retrospectivly change Sidereal Time.
I was thinking just now, this could have devestational reprocussions on the life cycles of earth and it's inhabitants.
How would it affect the rest of the universe? other planets and stars .... and the 90% of black matter we will never see or understand!,,,, there could be some thing lurking in that 90%.
We live in a time where the universe is ballanced, ballenced in just the right way that we were given our existance from carbon particles millions of years ago. it is still ballenced in this day that we can exist as we have evolved to inhabit this globe in just the same was as the flora and fauna have.
To keep this ballence that we have right now and the length of the day did change then there are too many other out side structures that you would have to change to keep the ballance for every thing to still exist.
No one could tell me that if god was alive that he could do his he has the power!.... [crap] in my eyes... no man could do this, i believe in many things, but fact before fiction... we were born with imaginations, brains, voice, eyes ears, understanding, communication.... let me put this into perspective, you can lie? ... yes or no!, you can make up some untruths using your imagination? yes or no!, you can communicate to the
person beside you and tell hem exactly what you have just thought of in your head. you do this verbally. the second person hears what you have told him/her, that person can then make up his/her own mind if it is truth or not, write it in a book send it to many different people over the course of a few hundred years and then hide it for thousands of years after, how many people have rewritten that book?... did any one see them do it? how will any one else know that that origional story was truth?, or how many people changed the details of that story over the course of the books journey.
just some thing from my perspective, and preach all you like, i like to read others opinions you wont make an enemy.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
"I think religion makes a good person better and a bad person worse."
-Elizabeth Moon
"I think religion makes a good person better and a bad person worse."
-Elizabeth Moon
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
54 posts
54 posts
Posted:
PK, my theory was meant to be read in humor and not taken seriously. I have not studied astronomy since grade school when I was taught a few constellations. I am sorry if you took me seriously.
The whole point of the topic was to say that regardless if a day was 24 for hours or not creation still happened in six days.
Now I am not certain if what I said is comprehended by all.
Lightning, what book was that from, or was it from an interview? I am interested to see the context of that quote.
PK, my theory was meant to be read in humor and not taken seriously. I have not studied astronomy since grade school when I was taught a few constellations. I am sorry if you took me seriously.
The whole point of the topic was to say that regardless if a day was 24 for hours or not creation still happened in six days.
Now I am not certain if what I said is comprehended by all.
Lightning, what book was that from, or was it from an interview? I am interested to see the context of that quote.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
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Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
i know dafunkymahn.
just throwing in some thought, that all/.
i know dafunkymahn.
just throwing in some thought, that all/.
member
54 posts
54 posts
Posted:
Okay PK, you just really lost me on that though.
Okay PK, you just really lost me on that though.
BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Lambretta Fanatic
4,997 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
interesting article though huh... it gets deeper than that too!... that was just time relevance facts.
interesting article though huh... it gets deeper than that too!... that was just time relevance facts.
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