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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Having written poetry since I was a conscious human-being, I am somewhat prone to philosophical musings. The energy that I once devoted to poetry I am now channeling into poi; the natural result to such a circumstance is that crazy ideas pop up from time to time. These are some ideas that have popped up recently. I've searched the forums and haven't really come across threads discussing poi in this way, so I thought I'd sail this out there and see what happens.

Ego-less-ness and poi

First, having recently come across threads where the possibility of doing a 5 bt. or btb weave are being debated, it occurred to me (as it has to some of you more experienced spinners, I'm sure) that this contemporary iteration of poi (as opposed to the traditional Maori mode) is still in the process of being discovered. We are all going on this adventure together, both individually and communally in our own particular ways, filtered through the particular lenses of our cultures (take that in however many contexts as you wish) and locations on the planet, as well as the philosophical/technical/artistic leanings unique to each of us. So egoless in the sense that we're collectively doing this thing together without really claiming ownership of particular concepts or moves and such -- just sharing for the sake of mutual discovery. I think that's a beautiful thing.

I mean egoless in another sense too, however, in that the "mastery" we gain or seek through practice isn't that of controlling the poi, rather it's that of letting the energy --the flow-- move through us unimpeded. The moves we learn are simply the different patterns that energy makes. In practicing the moves, we get accustomed to our bodies making those shapes, and we learn to allow (perhaps summon?) that energy to flow through us. We're not learning how to manipulate the poi as we wish, we're learning to let the energy flow and to get out of its (and our own) way.

Now for the (meta)physical part

The flow has its source in the same energy that we think of as "creation" or "the cosmos" or the "spacetime continuum," of which the matter and energy that forms our bodies and our consciousness(es) is a part. The patterns we make when spinning/dancing with the poi are macrouniverse manifestations of the same patterns that energy makes at a subatomic level. In essence, we manifest the energy that manifests us! In doing so, we're expanding it somehow, or allowing it to effect our conscious reality in some way. Like dancing with the poi brings forth energies that bring not only the dancer, but the receivers of the dance as well, to a higher awareness. (For me, this is evident by the buzz I get -- and I know others of you also get -- when particularly engaged with the flow, those moments where you just go without thinking about what the next move is going to be. And by the jubilant energy those engaged by your performance give off afterwards. Might we say their afterglow? wink )

All this leads me to believe that all of us engaged with flow through whatever implement we choose -- poi, staff, meteor, juggling, whatever -- are in the process of expressing something that is essential to human nature that cannot be expressed in any other way.

I'm psyched to be a part of this process -- and though some of you may think me a lunatic or a fool for this extraordinarily long rambling -- I'm psyched, nevertheless, to be going along for this ride with all of you.

Peace out everybody,
Khan
aka blueboy meditate


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i like the concepts here im developing a similar set of thoughts as they unravel for me in a thread called shadow contact dance in the staff forum u might be interested to read.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Adrillf
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Adrillf

member
Location: UT, Sweden

Total posts: 112
Posted:Deep, but true. Expecially the part where this art form is not truly discovered. Every person that even picks up a set of poi is helping the art advance because everyone has their own ideas as to how it should look. I dread the day that poi becomes something such as waltzing or any other dance form that you have a limited amount of moves you can do and there is no creativity.

As for the metaphysical stuff, I think that's why alot of us stick with poi, it's comforting and calming. For us, when we need to relax we start spinning simply because we feel free almost when we string.


missegyptology: I'm gonna be a terrorist when I grow up anyway

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Adrillf

I dread the day that poi becomes something such as waltzing or any other dance form that you have a limited amount of moves you can do and there is no creativity.




i think ppl who do dance would tell u otherwise about the lack of creativity its a form of self expression.

Its like saying i dread the day i learn all the words in the english language as suddenly your limited and there can be no creativity .....


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Adrillf
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Adrillf

member
Location: UT, Sweden

Total posts: 112
Posted:I know it was a bad example, I'll try to come up with one better, but at least you get the point, poi is not limited like other things, it is expanding and growing as we sit at our computers. People are doing new things with it every day, and that is exciting.

missegyptology: I'm gonna be a terrorist when I grow up anyway

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:limitations exist only in your mind, if you see something as limited this is because of an assumption that you are making, everything is capable of growth this is the natural state of life is just a question of whether you are open to it or not.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia

Total posts: 364
Posted:Khan,
hug

As for Waltzing,
I'm sure there are people who like to find Zen* in the steps. Finding Art is no science.

PS *insert your own label here wink


Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:limitations exist only in your mind, if you see something as limited this is because of an assumption that you are making, everything is capable of growth this is the natural state of life is just a question of whether you are open to it or not.

what can be done with poi doesnt change its a constant, when someone finds a new move for the first time this is not something new for poi, the move was always there and always able to be done it was something inside the individual that changed and their understanding of poi changed allowing them to do it


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia

Total posts: 364
Posted:To be fair everything can and does also decay. Which really just brings us around to the functions of our broad labels of manifest things. just gotta let it all be really wink

Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:hippy tongue

while life has two states begin growth and the process of stagnation death and decay the natural tendency of life is to evolve, if we didnt have death and decay evolution would take alot longer as new generations wouldnt have the same space to grow

so what about controlled chaos then mmmmMMMMMmmmm where does that lie in the broad spectrum of things? smile


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia

Total posts: 364
Posted:Need to go sleep now, but a quick poen that seemed fitting:

too good to be true?
no
just the matter
of reminding my attention
to it
no small matter
my patterned cells
having their way with me
going on without me
unless it is
i am willing
to show up

sometimes
i love the words too much
want to believe them
in lieu of my breath
breathing enough
to speak my being
feeling enough
where i am
before i?ve left
to tell me where
i am going
next
-Carlyn Staurt (A dancer btw)


Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1626
Posted:*interjects* Cool thoughts Khan. I think about the same stuff as I spin. When I'm turning, and twisting into moves and patterns I sometimes lose all consciousness of my movement, I just become totally involved in my thought and let this extraneous things move through me.

I guess I think that human life is just a phenomena of the particular way this world developed, like the flames in a fire.. springing up, giving birth to other flames and dying down eventually.. humans are just a complex thing which has emerged from billions of years of development, things flickering into - and then out of - existence. I believe we each have a soul, and I believe in reincarnation of our souls.. and the birth of new ones, rising out of the things "old" souls acheive in life.. meditation, enlightenment, giving birth to new understanding, new elements of a soul. But I believe this is all part of this same organic phenomenon, like the flames of a fire, which is totally transient.

I don't believe in a higher purpose or anything like that, simply that these beautiful things are just happening in this place, because of these conditions.

Sorry if that all seems hideously off topic, but I think it ties into what you describe. When I spin, these things come into my mind, and my movements express things which are coming from somewhere I don't really have access to. This probably all sounds hideously pretentious, or just a bit
Non-Https Image Link
, but I just feel like dancing whilst reaching this kind of meditative state is something incredible, which isn't expressed ever again or in anyone elses movements, like you say.. it's such a beautiful thing.

Seperating myself from causality for a while... it feels like that.

I'm loving this whole idea of a metaphysics of poi smile


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Burning Brain


Burning Brain

eye shifter
Location: between my headphones

Total posts: 321
Posted:meditate

If I could be granted one wish I would ask for all the questions of the universe.

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs..., United Ki...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:Hey Brain, I just twigged, after about 6 months of seeing your avatar, that the cat is holding a minigun!!!!! I always saw it as some sorta lightning in a Pokemon sorta way offtopic

Anyways, the "loss of conscious thought" thing is total immersion in what youre doing. As an actor, when you are playing a part, the ultimate thrill is the loss of yourself and the character comes through. Its better in musical theatre as the music can take you over, but I will always remember the sensation of the first full band call, and the first night of, Jesus Christ Superstar, when I was playing Judas. When the guitar riff kicked in, i wasn't me anymore, my voice and body were totally separate from my mind, and the thrill of not entirely being sure of what was going on still echoes now 2 years later.
Its not totally "loss of self" but just putting it all aside for a while.

Spinning poi now for over 7 months I have had one or two moments of perfect clarity where my existence has been limited to two balls and two pivots at my fingertips and wrists, and the space (my body, that is) where the balls cant go... Its a buzz better than any drug (not that I know) and a sensation not dissimilar to sustained non-sexual orgasm. Some call it spritual enlightenment, i might put to you...


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:or what that weird looking guy that did stifler's mum was after.. tantra or something

Self hyptnotism is something that can be brought into play here as well, i guess. Kinda like if/when you get really into a book, or, if you write stuff, writing. Or, as the case most likely is, just about anything.

Sometimes, when in the right mood, with the right tools (for me, usually a good book), i feel myself disappear into what it is im doing. the world pauses, and all that exists are the characters, the actions, the images from that book. Apparently, this is a form of self hypnosis.

Just a little bit more food for thought.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:So many good thoughts here I don't know where to begin responding...

Ben-ja-men: I've had a look at the shadow contact dance thread and yes, there are some similar concepts...though all the fishtail talk is over my head.

Written by: ben-ja-men

what can be done with poi doesnt change its a constant, when someone finds a new move for the first time this is not something new for poi, the move was always there and always able to be done it was something inside the individual that changed and their understanding of poi changed allowing them to do it



YES!

And as to controlled chaos -- I think that's the state in which we exist globally.

The "loss of self," "meditative state," and "self-hypnosis" that n_a_g, Flashpoint & MiG refer to I think is what athletes refer to as being "in the zone." The activity takes over from your conscious thought. Not specific to poi, but cool that poi is another way of accessing that state. Does anybody else get the tingly sensation at the top of the head after being in that state for a while? Hope it's not just me...

and Kyle,
hug backatcha & thanks for the poem.

It occurs to me as well, (drawing on my lay-man's knowledge of quantum physics) that the wave-particle duality of light is applicable to poi, where the poi are the particle function and the paths they make are the wave function. To quote from a quantum physics site: "Quantum physics refers to the unusual concept of the probability wave. What this means is that a particle - say for example an electron - when not being measured (located), takes the form of a field or wave of probable locations, some being more probable or likely than others. So from one point of view the electron is a solid little energy particle located in a particular spot. And from another point of view it is an energy field or wave-form of possible locations" This applies to the nature of subatomic particles -- on the level of the macrouniverse, the effects aren't noticeable, but I think this is an intriguing metaphor for thinking about poi. Everytime we spin, we are, in essence, stepping or plugging into the probability wave, and our dance is both particle and wave.

meditate


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: blueboy

that the wave-particle duality of light is applicable to poi, where the poi are the particle function and the paths they make are the wave function.




can u elaborate a bit

Written by: blueboy

on the level of the macrouniverse, the effects aren't noticeable




actually the idea that it all averages out on our real world level is a common misconception theres a book called the quantum brain that explains why really well if your interested

Written by: blueboy

Everytime we spin, we are, in essence, stepping or plugging into the probability wave, and our dance is both particle and wave.




can u explain how our dance is both particle and wave i dont quite get what u mean


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:Ben (may I address you as such?):

I'm still thinking through these ideas, but I shall endeavor to answer your questions as best I can. Your two questions are related, actually, so let's see if I can address them both at once:

The wave-particle duality I think can be applied to poi quite literally. This is perhaps best illustrated when thinking about the trails we take pretty pictures of while spinning lights or fire. When you observe the spin -- the dance -- you see the patterns of the lights. Those patterns are caused by the poi as they move through the probability wave which is the space the spinner enters into when spinning. Quite literally the physical space around the spinner's body (and perhaps, also, the conscious awareness of that space held in the spinner's mind) That space contains every possible path and combination of paths the poi can make, but what's illuminated are those paths through which the poi actually move during that particular spin. So when observing the trails, we are seeing the wave function at work -- those parts of the probability wave that are illuminated. We are seeing the "energy field or wave-form of possible locations." When shifting the focus of our observation away from the wave function, that is when we want to pinpoint location, we see the "solid little energy particle(s) located in a particular spot" -- that would be the poi themselves. The body of the spinner could also be considered a "particle" in this thinking -- or maybe something else, as it's the conduit through which the energy is flowing? Not sure there. confused

Anyway, I hope that provides some further illumination to what I'm trying to get at.

Thanks for the book suggestion; I am heading out for my lunch break right now and will see if the neighborhood bookshop carries it. Have you read the Quantum Self? It's an application of quantum theory ideas to psychology and the development of consciousness. Also an interesting read.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia

Total posts: 364
Posted:I'll have a look for that one. Have read a couple books along these lines, although I don't know how close the content was to The Quantum Self. I found some interesting ideas and metaphors, but am not really big on tieing new physics to spirit, as I think the latter has to transcend the former. There is so much to be found that is subtle and esoteric in our present scientific understanding. But that understanding will change and the new physics will become the old. What I'm getting at is if you imagine a view of spirit that was based on Newtonian science (and worldviews were indeed formed this way) it would seem to have been a mistake to use somthing that temporary as a metaphysical base. I like QM, but also wonder what the next science will be.

Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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_khan_
SILVER Member since Nov 2004

_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA

Total posts: 768
Posted:That spirit has to transcend science -- yes, very true. It's fascinating to me though, how much of the new physics veers into the territory of spirit. And really, scientific questioning and spiritual questioning are two different methods of investigating the same questions. At least to me they are. But yes, the new physics will become the old, just as our current conceptions of 'spirit' will eventually evolve into something else.

As to using something temporary as a metaphysical base -- well, it's all temporary isn't it? Even the metaphysical base. But each iteration brings us closer to....{ } (i don't mean the sigur ros album wink )


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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Kyle McLean
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin, Australia

Total posts: 364
Posted:ubblol Yeah that's a good way to think of it.
Written by: blueboy

And really, scientific questioning and spiritual questioning are two different methods of investigating the same questions.


On one level I'd agree with that, I think they both try to look at what is.
What follows is just MHO on this, as somone woefully under trained in both.
I think for me the difference is that many spirtual approachs (eg Vippisana) try to make this inqury at the internal level. This creates knowledge that is also internal. Although science is useful for observing many things this is an area where the method does not (can not) really apply. A metaphor for this would be a person in a dark room with a flash light. The flash light is very useful to this person unless it is the batteries that they want to inquire about. confused


Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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Lavatwilight
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Lavatwilight

old hand
Location: Wellington somerset, UK

Total posts: 834
Posted:Written by: blueboy

Ben (may I address you as such?):

I'm still thinking through these ideas, but I shall endeavor to answer your questions as best I can. Your two questions are related, actually, so let's see if I can address them both at once:

The wave-particle duality I think can be applied to poi quite literally. This is perhaps best illustrated when thinking about the trails we take pretty pictures of while spinning lights or fire. When you observe the spin -- the dance -- you see the patterns of the lights. Those patterns are caused by the poi as they move through the probability wave which is the space the spinner enters into when spinning. Quite literally the physical space around the spinner's body (and perhaps, also, the conscious awareness of that space held in the spinner's mind) That space contains every possible path and combination of paths the poi can make, but what's illuminated are those paths through which the poi actually move during that particular spin. So when observing the trails, we are seeing the wave function at work -- those parts of the probability wave that are illuminated. We are seeing the "energy field or wave-form of possible locations." When shifting the focus of our observation away from the wave function, that is when we want to pinpoint location, we see the "solid little energy particle(s) located in a particular spot" -- that would be the poi themselves. The body of the spinner could also be considered a "particle" in this thinking -- or maybe something else, as it's the conduit through which the energy is flowing? Not sure there. confused

Anyway, I hope that provides some further illumination to what I'm trying to get at.

Thanks for the book suggestion; I am heading out for my lunch break right now and will see if the neighborhood bookshop carries it. Have you read the Quantum Self? It's an application of quantum theory ideas to psychology and the development of consciousness. Also an interesting read.





ok i like the wave partical duality thing with the idea of poi smile
flow of energy? take up tai chi, or learn raki(sp) (just dont pay loads to do it) and you'll see it i mean quite literally see it feel it touch and taste it, well you get what i mean.

and i suppsoe in respoce to the first post, the ol' jedi notion of there are no tricks best fits here, cuz if you dont concentrate on tricks but rather the transtion from one circle to another then it seas to work better ( i onlt know this from staff as i dont get on with poi)
and like most things id make more sence and say more if i posted at a time where i am awake, rather than half asleep again :S :P


Drawings by chalk minds, strech between the stars

Kyle Mclean-
Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Poi spinning paralleled with quantum mechanics?? Does this mean that the Heisenberg uncertainty principal gave us the " Sing like no one was listening, dance like no one was watching" bumper sticker?

The wave particle duality of light is a great unexplained, light behaves as a wave under certain conditions, a particle under others, I cant' list all the conditions off the top of my head, but basically the wave/particle nature of light is still unexplained, and may not be explained for quite some time. Equating the orbits of spinning poi with the orbits of electrons around the nucleus of an atom,,ok, just don't forget to vary the length of your chains.

When we're happily spinning our poi, and things are going smoothly, we're doing things that we've taught our bodies to do, the flow from one move to the next, the transitions,, are things we've learned to do and they've become second nature. You may be able to cycle freely between, say,,,the forward weave, windmill, and reverse weave, turning as you want, but I'll bet you couldn't do that when you first learned those moves. Now try throwing in a move that you picked up yesterday, suddenly your level of concentration changes, more focus, more thought,, because that particular motion hasn't become a part of you,,,,,yet.

We all have our different ways of accessing "the zone" and different ways in interpreting just what "the zone" actually is,, and means. Maybe I'm over simpliflying it here but I thought I'd just chuck in my two cents worth.


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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear,...

Total posts: 4693
Posted:i approve

(interesting concepts, but cant we just enjoy it without over investigating) i agree with the original comments made by blue boy, i learnt to juggle when i was 12 and have been learning new moves ever since.
recently i was just playing at school and a guy said to me "you know, if you took all the effort you put into circus and put it into school you could ace the work" and i just thought he was absolutly right. but the thing is i dont want to ace school cause all it is a structured way to learn. the way i've learnt new moves over the years with various equiptment is just something better to me, its like a force that most people just miss and overlook due to lack of dedication. its crazy but what i learn through circus is more important to me now than what i'm learning at school.

can anyone relate to this at all?


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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