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Forums > Social Chat > philosophical ramblings for the twisted and bored alike

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falloutboy
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...

Total posts: 433
Posted:I was writing down all my thoughts this morning, and just thought i'd share them with you all.. not entirely sure why, but hey.

About a month ago i knocked myself out in a skiing "accident" (that's right, i honestly didn't deliberately pull my ski off mid air - who would've guessed) - and subsequently managed to give myself temporary amnesia, and a week long pulsing headache. Anyway, 'waking up' lying in the snow with your face in a pool of blood - not knowing where you are or how you got there - is quite an interesting and mind opening experience...

it was wierd.. everything slowly started to become less fuzzy as time went by - like my memory was gradually it's arse back into working order. But this didn't happen until about 10 minutes after the accident, so there's a 10 minute block where my memory wasn't working at all. Which has made me realise, that without memory your life is pretty much pointless. I have no idea what i was doing during that time - was i still "me"?, so (for me) what was the point in that piece of time even existing? - i mean, i was alive, and i was 'awake' (and apparently talking and moving) - but if you can't remember something, then as far as your conciously aware it might as well have not happened at all.

Whish raises the question: "Can each of our individual existences be defined as merely a collection of memories?"

are we only what we remember? - if so, what if there's a whole lot of stuff that goes on that none of us remember, and therefore we just assume it didn't happen? - just like right now you're assuming that yesterday you didn't dress up in an astronaut suit and play tennis with a midget penguin and a polar bear named Sven..
But this is based on the assumption that by NOT assuming that you DID do something, you're therefore (sub-conciously at least) assuming that you didn't do it - which is questionable at best.

On another note: Ever had a dream that you were having a dream - and you had to wake up twice to get back to where you are now? - what if at some stage you (or all of us) didn't wake up enough times, and became stuck in a dream but didn't realise..

- YOU could be a fluroescent green six legged elephant who lives in a cosmic rainbow just a few light years to the left of the planet Arkaschia in your real life.. and this life which you currently believe to be "real" is just you (the REAL you, the freaky green elephant) dreaming of being a human - go on, prove me wrong.
In any case, it's a damn fine dream - so i guess the idea is to try to make the most of it while you can - you never know when one day you may wake up to find yourself standing in a swamp drinking water through a big green trunk.

Things exist only because we believe they exist
or maybe i just need more sleep...

* i take no responsibility for any personal injury caused by the lack of logic displayed in this post, or my relentless use of the "-" character

[ 17 August 2002, 16:29: Message edited by: falloutboy ]


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:well, on the dreaming subject, I've recently come to believe that dreams are just as real, if not more real, then reality. in dreaming we are torn from the bounds of our description of the world and put someplace where anything is everything, everything is nothing, and nothing is anything. it is the time of our "double". I have experienced this, where I was standing by my turntables, looking at myself in bed, while at the same time laying in bed, looking at myself standing by my turntables. quite an odd occurence. the only reason we say this "reality" is real is because it is much more defined then our state of dreaming. we assume everything is seen more clearly, when in fact it is more fuzzy and fake then anything else we know.

maybe I need sleep as well.


you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:It's quite interesting that if your character is defined by your memories, being in a state - all-be-it temporary - of amnesia would in theory wipe out your entire personality. If someone suffered total amnsia and was placed back into the same environment only without their memory, would they develop into the same person?
I.e. Is out character in someway intwined into our DNA or could it be wiped away by memory loss?


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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vaperloc...the mighty


vaperloc...the mighty

look @my member
Location: Ft worth Texas

Total posts: 466
Posted:Hmmmmmmm my head hurts.
the last time i thought about things like that I was on a healthy dose of hallucinogenic drugs.


There are no obstacles only challenges.
Very funny scotty now beam down my pants.
[colour."green"}What would willie do?

AHH theres too many wee leprechauns i cannae squash them all

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vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas

Total posts: 3899
Posted:I think this question depends on point of view. Most people with amnesia keep many of their personality traits even though they can't remember some other things like their name. So from someone else's point of view, they may seem very much like the same person who happens to be missing information. On the other hand, from the amnesia victims point of view, he may not remember that he acted that way before in addition to that lost feeling of generally not knowing a lot of basic stuff. So from that point of view, perhaps it would definitely seem that existance is defined by memory.

So falloutboy, did you have that moment as you were coming to on the mountain where you realized you had a significant head injury and were afraid to see if your fingers and toes could still move? That happened to me snowboarding once. The sky came swirling back into view and it occured to me that my neck was in an unusually large amount of pain. I didn't quite remeber why for a few seconds, but that was while the sky was still swirling. Once it stopped, I got a pretty good handle on the situation. I remeber lying there thinking that there was a fair chance I had broken my neck and I didn't really want to find out that I was paralized, so I just laid there for a while trying to be very still and wondering what the chances were that I was going to be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life. Then I decided to quit being morbid and tried to wiggle something. Well, it turned out everything wiggled, but when I decided to sit up is when I discovered my collar bone was poking me in the jaw (not broken, just very badly dislocated - looked kinda wierd too). No memory loss other than that initial confusion.

Hope your recovery is going/went well.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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the mind gap.


the mind gap.

old hand
Location: Brigadoon

Total posts: 829
Posted:interesting story falloutboy.
although i have a rather different take on the experience of amnesia.

i seem to have lost conciousness quite a few times over the last 10 years or so (most recently last night for unexplained reasons ) and ialways found the most interesting part to be coming round again.

the first thing to come back is always the hearing, then vision and smell. but as the part of the brain that translates it all doesn't come back online for a few seconds it's always a mess of colourful shapes and wierd sounds.

then it seems the translator kicks in and everything is clear. except for the fact that, due to a complete inability to access any memories, the surroundings (people, room etc.) are unknown.

the few seconds / minutes that this lasts is imo the true essence of being alive. without memory there can be no ego or super-ego as these manifest themselves differently depending on a person's experiences through life. and there is no time for the id because your too fucking confused for it to know how to deal with the situation, so it does nothing.

there is no drug that comes close to comparing to regaining conciousness and if anyone hasn't tried it, i recommend it. (just choose your method of passing out carefully and don't blame me if you don't wake up again )


wherever you go, there you are.

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chairmenmeow47


member
Location: mesa, arizona

Total posts: 81
Posted:you've got my brain worms thinking fallout boy! (look out, radioactive man!) i've noticed that people remember the things they want to remember for odd reasons. like i might something off a piece of paper at work, like a stupid memo that has nothing to do with my job or what i do, but i'll remember it. it's odd, usually someone in the near future (that day, a month from then) will bring up the subject and need the information i just so happen to have read for no reason and remember. i am a firm believer that life is always handing you maps and signs, the trick is to know what to do with them... and as for dreams, i have a lot of frightning nightmares and beautiful dreams of soaring in the sky. quite intesne, but i think that dreams are an exagerated "play" of how we perceive life, whether it to be true or not...

-ivy. = ^ )

Ralph, jesus did not have wheels.--sunday school teacher, the simpsons

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FireMikeZ


FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US

Total posts: 1438
Posted:quote:Things exist only because we believe they exist
or maybe i just need more sleep...have a good sleep.
things might exist, but we may not know it for sure, so reality IS local to us as the perceiver

quote:On another note: Ever had a dream that you were having a dream - and you had to wake up twice to get back to where you are now? - what if at some stage you (or all of us) didn't wake up enough times, and became stuck in a dream but didn't realise..i had a dream from overdose of ephedrine as a kid in which i knew i was an amoeba reproducing, and wondering how my thought was continuing as my identity went with the birth so that i was always the next generation...

quote:- YOU could be a fluroescent green six legged elephant who lives in a cosmic rainbow just a few light years to the left of the planet Arkaschia in your real life.. and this life which you currently believe to be "real" is just you (the REAL you, the freaky green elephant) dreaming of being a human - go on, prove me wrong.
In any case, it's a damn fine dream - so i guess the idea is to try to make the most of it while you can - you never know when one day you may wake up to find yourself standing in a swamp drinking water through a big green trunk.this is famous in Lao Tzu (i think)'s few centuries before common era remark that he didn't know if he was a man dreaming of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of being a man (dreaming of being a butterfly) and i'm sure many others have had this wonderment around the world through time.

before i'd learned from Lao Tzu (reputed author of the Tao Te Ching of Taoist fame), i used to tell friends as a kid you didn't know if "you're really what we in our present frame of mind would call a squid floating in what we would in our present frame of mind call space, imagining you're what we (or i realize now, da squid) in our (the squid's) present frame of mind would call a human."

quote:Whish raises the question: "Can each of our individual existences be defined as merely a collection of memories?" NO! that would be a photo album or a database. yes, some would say our "programs" are data too, but then (grin) they only capture our programmed natures, not the quirks and major glues (not from the environment) which is part of us and our past. most of all, we are OUR FUTURE and our present existence, which is to say we're the camera, the subject of the photos, indeed, the movies and more than that, the sense-o-rama and more than the 7 bio senses at that... dude, you're an incredible fucken fire spinnin being, almost a god (or maybe more than one!) handle that blashemy, if ya can.


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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vaperloc...the mighty


vaperloc...the mighty

look @my member
Location: Ft worth Texas

Total posts: 466
Posted:Oh and yes fallout boy i have had that dream ,I had to wake up like four times,everytime it took me a minute to realize that i was still asleep.Very freaky.

There are no obstacles only challenges.
Very funny scotty now beam down my pants.
[colour."green"}What would willie do?

AHH theres too many wee leprechauns i cannae squash them all

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:quote: Things exist only because we believe they exist
i'll buy this. but it would take a lot of explaining on my part to show why.

I do not think, however, that we are merely teh sum of our memories. we wouldn't become teh exact same person if we lost our memories and had to learn things again, but we would become a similar type of person. there are certain persons we arn't. is this making any sense?

there were only two replies when i started writing this, so i'm hoping all is not irrelavent by now.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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master sodium


member
Location: carson city, nevada

Total posts: 536
Posted:how can one say that you are not a product of your memories. what makes you who you are comes from all your experiences in life (I.E. you memories, cause if you don't remember, it wont affect you).

you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.

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halfabike


member
Location: canastota, ny usa

Total posts: 55
Posted:ok...

amnesia...
as far as becoming the same or different person after having amnesia, im not sure the exact movies, but there are probably a few out there where some corporate tycoon asshole gets amnesia and suddenyl becomes this loveable nice guy who changes his ways...i think thats totallly possible (to go from bastard to nice guy) becuae when you wake up and realize you know nothing, you are most likely going to be very nice, polite, and diplomatic with everyone you meet...that may be an attitude that that person had never tried before and all the sudden they could find out that it works (most of the time;)

as for dreams...i was thinking a while back about how maybe when we die its like we slip into a dream, the kicker though is that we can only dream about things we know in "waking" life...for example, before i had ever seen anyone spin fire, that idea never entered or played a part in my dreams (that i can remember) but now i dream about it every once in a while...its kinda like the signature someone on this board has, and i cant think of who it is right now about the cosmic movie...its like you have to open up to all kinds of ideas and activities while youre conscious so that youre brain has more options to play with while youre sleeping...so in a sense we can be infinitely defined by our memories/experiences...

just some thoughts...


excuse me, santa, have you seen half a bike?

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Fwirl :p


member
Location: Wellington, NZ

Total posts: 76
Posted:A few thoughts..
-I have only been knocked out once and that was a long time ago...about 6 yrs...all i remember really is a lack of memory.
-In the school bus once, someone was like almost knocking himself out by holding his breath...not recommended a.
-SOmething I found fasinating...we were talking about it in Physics the other day. If there was a forest and a tree fell over in it and there was no animals or humans around, would there be any sound?
We came to the conclusion of no because 'sound' is only what we humans call what our brain turns the vibrations into. Sound is just a vibration. Look at how a record works for example. Therefore is there any sound if a tree falls over in a forest where there are no humans or animals around? ABsolutely fasinated me.
Might add more later when i think of something. I love philosophy. Is everything around me real? Oh no, u have started me off....Grrr...naaa...
Love & hugs (r they hugs? and what is love?)
Fwirl
Ps. a fasinating question...are u ppl all robots or hallucinations and am I the only real person out there? that can lead off. Make a mind map...they r fun to do with philosophy...


Neo:Wow, that sounds like a really good deal, but I have a better one. How about I give you the finger and you give me my phone call?

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shizN0T


member
Location: Stroudsburg, PA, USA

Total posts: 184
Posted:we are what OTHERS remember

I smell something burning.

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DarkFairyQueen


member
Location: The Underworld

Total posts: 557
Posted:HoOHooO I love debates like this

I believe that every experience shapes the reality of the individual. Truths to some, are lies to others. Your social conditioning, like a fingerprint is identical to no other, which is why we have so much fascinating diversity between us.

I think this post suggests most of us are on the same level with this issue, so I raise the question, 'How do you, as individuals define (your) reality?'

For some, reality is what we see everyday. Solid, true, REAL. When I consider the answer to this question from a quantum phisics angle, whichs states that matter is not infact solid, but merely a mass of swirling energy, I cannot conform to this mundane view.

I believe my reality (my suroundings, my universe) to be maliable. Knowing that as my experiences of the past have shaped my present self, and my experiences of the future will shape my future self, gives me a choice. It gives me the chance to take back the power we all have within us and escape the herd mentality. The mentality of our existance in a mundane, un-changeable , solid 'reality'.

I do my best to remember that I (we all) exist in what I call a 'concious-choice reality'. Which also means accepting responsibility for the outcome of any situation. Life is, in a crude (and seemingly overused statement) a game. If you play your cards right you can't go wrong.

I'll finish up on a quote from the man himself, (I think I might just beat Bender to it for once!)

quote:Today a man on acid discovered that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one conciousness, experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is just a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves...
Bill Hicksxxx


Az abouve, So below...

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:lol good work, dfq, that's exactly the rigth hicks quote for this thread!

as for the thread,
The further along the esoteric path i travel, the more i believe that
the experience of life is the 'real' existence buried underneath the projections of the subconsious.during the day, these projections are daydreams, wanderings. during the night, these projections are our dreams.during the day, the consciousness struggles to concentrate on tasks, our perception veiled by primal emotions (try concentrating on just one thing... it's almost impossible). at night, our consciousness cannot perceive that we are astral projecting, such is the power of the subconciousness' dreams. have you ever daydreamed during the day so vividly that you were taken to another place? losing the perception of the room, items, people immediately around you? the same is true for the astral realm - we exist on these planes, but the 'daydreamimg' occurring in the astral causes us to only dream at night, fogging the view of the astral world around us when we rest our physical bodies.only with work on sharpening and making perceptive the mind in day time can we have any hope of sharpening our consciousness at night and making possible astral projection.are you reading this post in day time or in the astral? these are the questions that people who can project have to ask. if you question the nature of your reality, it makes you far less fearful when you realise your body's new abilities in the astral.
I passed up the oppotunity to begin my astral work years ago. Now i truly regret that mistake.
It is this re-evaluation of my existence that has given me true, meaningful purpose in life - to experience the true extent of my existence! to converse with others from this age who have awakened and recount the conversations later when we're awake (something i am dying to do!) It is threads that this that reach out to this challenge. it is threads like this that make me fear snow.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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