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Page: 123
NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:First of, let me say that my very clever Molly explained this to me very well. Unfortunately, I've found no supporting information and quite a bit of conflicting information. Nobody in my school understands either.

Here's what I know:

England + Scotland + Wales = Great Britain
Great Britain + Northern Ireland = "The United Kindom"
I also know that there are some very small islands off of the coast that are exceptions to the above.

What I don't understand, and keep getting conflicting information about, is which of the above are COUNTRIES.

Is the phrase "Scotland is a country within the country of Great Britain, which is within the country of the United Kingdom." correct? Cuz that just sounds weird.

[Note, it's just the word 'country' I'm having issues with, not the geography.]

So I guess to make it simple...

Question 1:
Is "Scotland" a country?

Question 2:
Is "Great Britain" a country?

Question 3:
Is "The United Kindom" a country?

I could throw a wrench into it all by bringing up the word "nation" but let's keep it simple.

I'd like the most technically correct answer. Everything I keep getting is "Well, you could say that..." and "It's almost like..." and "Most people would just say..." but there's got to be a 'real' answer and I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks!

UK's biggest fan, ubblove
NYC


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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:you forgot The British Isles
In official lists of Nationalities you generally only get UK, so thats the only one thats a Nation, i reckon.
But i'm not sure there is a technically correct answer.
You know we don't have a written constitution either?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:See what Wikipedia has to say about it

smile


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees


coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:scotland is a country.

great britain is a group of countries (like 'scandanavia').

the u.k. is a kingdom i.e. a group of countries ruled over by one monarch.


which begs the question...

why is autralia not in the uk?

confused


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Here is further clarification of "country".

And Cole, I think that "UK" as well as "GB" would be consitered a 'country' made up of several 'countries'. I agree that the UK is a 'kingdom', but I think it could also be accurately called a country (containing countries).

Off to search more...


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Yes, let's go.
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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:The 'UK' is a sovereign state.

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Yes, let's go.
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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:I always thought UK and GB were interchangable. Hmpf.



Edit - on thinking a little harder.. isn't it "The United Kingdom of Great Britain" in reality? In which case they are interchangable. I don't know enough about this.

EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1105457997)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Written by: coleman

i.e. a group of countries ruled over by one monarch.



Why do we need a monarchy?..... sorry im anti royalist... i hate the system. they cost us the tax payer so much money!... but thats kinda off topic so i will slap myself right now.

Thing that i find hard to grasp is when you fill out your name and address on websites for things... we have a hard time finding our country in the list.

England.
UK.
United Kingdom.
Great Britain.

cant they make it just one name?? confused


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:And Coleman....

Austrailia is free as of the Australia Act which was passed in... 1986! biggrin


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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:however, we still have monarch representation, and the queen is still the head of state, and we still have a prime minister and not a president, or a king or something else.

australia is a constitutional monarchy. and we have no bill of rights :S


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:but australia is still in the commonwealth and is ruled by the queen of england

arent scotland, england and wales all separate countries and nations of their own?



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone

I always thought UK and GB were interchangable. Hmpf.

Edit - on thinking a little harder.. isn't it "The United Kingdom of Great Britain" in reality? In which case they are interchangable. I don't know enough about this.



Nope... it's "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." That's the difference between the UK and GB.

And here's a telling sentence from the Wikipedia...

"Sometimes, parts of states with a distinct history or culture are called "lands" or "countries": England, Scotland and Wales the three nations on the island of Great Britain are known as countries, even though they are effectively governed as "components" of the British state."

So this would be the 'sometimes' where portions of a sovereign nation are called 'countries'.


Well, shall we go?
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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:I used to be strongly anti-monarchist, but I've changed my views a little now. I don't like being a "subject" but the powers the royals have have only been used for extremely good reasons in living memory (the removal of a certain corrupt politician), and no-one else would have the power to legally do some of the things they do.

Plus the royal family do an awful lot of good for various communities etc. I don't agree with the way they live and I certainly don't agree with their pro-hunt stance, but I believe they actually get considerably less from the taxpayer than is often thought. And most of it is spent entertaining visiting heads of state, business leaders etc etc which is actually extremely good for the country and its economy and defence, not to mention the fact that if we didn't have them, those people would still need to be taken care of and the taxpayer would still foot the bill.

The majority of their personal money comes from landletting, I think, which anyone in the country can do so I don't see why they shouldn't.

I'm not 100% on them but my views have changed considerably since finding that, and other things, out. Sorry NYC, that was horrendously offtopic and I'll leave now. *curtseys*


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:It's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
*she says reading her passport*

NYC, sweetie, we went over this for hours... even your brother accepted my answer!

and australia is in the commonwealth, no?

The word country has many meanings but I think that this is the most appropriate here:

[n] a politically organized body of people under a single government;

So, since UK government manages to be devolved and centralised at the same time, don't we have countries within a country
Though I like countries in a kingdom better smile



ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:The lonely planets new 'Travel Book'. Which claims to list every country in the world.

Doesnt have NI, Scotland or Wales in it. It explains why too. But I cant remember what it said.

NI came in under Ireland. I'm assuming something similiart heppened to the Scots and the Welsh.

Interesting enough. Greenland has the same problem.


Love is the law.


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: pk ....:


England.
UK.
United Kingdom.
Great Britain.

cant they make it just one name?? confused



I think some Scots would protest being called English.

It all makes SENSE that Scotland, England, and Wales would have some level of identity and Northern Ireland would have a slightly different one and they'd all be held together.


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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:i always thought:

scotland is a country
wales is a country
england is a country
ireland is a country
so's northern ireland.

Together, they are great britain.

Throw in the rest of the 'colonies',
and you have the united kingdom


Buti could be wrong.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:ubblol

you might want to remove Ireland, or at least the Republic Thereof, from that list....

so yes indeed you are wrong...

beerchug


Love is the law.


Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:I don't think we're not the only country with other countries inside (Germany with Bavaria, Spain with Catalonia etc) And as for the other islands being slightly different, they just get slightly different rules, mostly set up by the Gentry for tax breaks for the rich.



smile


Let's relight this forum ubblove


stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:i think youre wrong about that last part MiG, that including colonies its the UK.. if you can consider australia as still a colony, it is difinitely not part of the UK.. its part of the commonwealth, but.... im confusing myself here


whats the difference between the UK, GB, and the Commonwealth>?



NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Molly

NYC, sweetie, we went over this for hours... even your brother accepted my answer!




According to your definition, New York State would be a country. And it's not.

England, Scotland, and Wales seem to be called 'Countries' only because of their history.

I also see no reference of "UK" being called a country anywhere.

So... confused. confused


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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:Amazing - Wikipedia solved the question in my eyes, but no one else seems to think it does!

Ah well, carry on smile


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees


MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:i dunno. i just call them by their names when i can. when i can't, i say britain.

works for me smile


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home
Member Since: 4th May 2004
Total posts: 2354
Posted:It's not my fault you don't have history tongue

I'm still fond of the kingdom tanswer though.

Incidentally, the definition for a state seems to be the same for country, so maybe New York Country is just a dialect away wink



nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:States in America, and the constituent states of Great Britain/United Kingdom/whatever seem almost exactly the same to me. So New York State is as much a country as Scotland, it's just that your states are treated a little differently from our countries. The basics are the same - the states have representatives in a centralised government, there are local governments as well, states and our countries have some autonomy from the central control...



That's certainly how it looks from here.



In lists of countries on the net (like when you're ordering something from a website) it just says "United States of America" and "United Kingdom", just as it doesn't say "Germany" AND "Bavaria". I think that's an example of the UK being treated as a country, as every single list has it as that. Calling it Great Britain always looks extremely odd online.

EDITED_BY: nearly_all_gone (1105459570)


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:So thats how the Christopher Walkin became 'The King of New York'

Love is the law.


NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think the wikipedia still has unanswered questions. And so do I.

What do you think folks... (I've added a fourth question just for fun)

#1) Is Scotland a country?
#2) Is Northern Ireland a country?
#3) Is Great Britain a country?
#4) Is the United Kingdom a country?

Right now, I'm...
#1) Technically yes because of it's history of independance.
#2) I'm leaning towards technically no, but under a more general definition yes.
#3) I'm leaning towards no. Great Britain is a land mass.
#4) I'm leaning towards yes. "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is a sovereign state.


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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Northern Ireland's status as a country depends upon your politics, I think. Some think it's part of Ireland and not part of the United Kingdom, and some think it's its own country and is a part of the UK.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:Ok why is it that at the Olympics there is Great Britain and in all other sports (me thinks, ie football, rugby etc) there is Scotland, Englad, Wales...

ah wah wah wah a wah wah


_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Well said, nearly all gone.

This is a particularly thorny subject... approach with care (and if possible, police riot gear) biggrin

Unionists/loyalists/Protestants believe Northern Ireland is 'owned' by Britain (Scotland, England, Wales) and they like it that way. Together we make up the UK.

Nationalists/republicans/Catholics believe Northern Ireland has been 'stolen' by Britain, and is in actual fact a part of Ireland which has been governed by an invading force for the last 70 years (or so).

I, personally, would like to see the Province (or six counties or north or bandit country, depending on your point of view) established as our own little country, because as far as I can see, that is the only way to keep all sides mildly satisfied.

Tis fun and games ubblol


Getting to the other side smile


Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:The BRITISH ISLES are a land mass. They include Ireland, which is NOT part of Great Britain.

Margaret Thatcher [the audience hisses the villainess] once famously said "Forget 'British' -- I'm an ENGLISH nationalist, and don't you forget it!" She then proceeded to demonstrate that GB is not a nation, but a group of subject allies (Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and (anciently) Cornwall), ruled by the nation of England.

Whether this is less so now than when Thatchescu was in power I cannot say. I defer to our friends in the UK. (Full disclosure: I'm Irish-American and still pissed off about the Potato Famine. Which is probably why I'm -American, actually.)

This is a good example of the difference between "State" and "Government." In most places the Head of State is also the Head of Government. Not in the UK: Elizabeth II is the Head of State, but Tony Blair is the Head of Government. The Pope (not a big fan of his but he got this right) likes to visit Heads of State, but not Heads of Government; therefore he visits Her Maj, but not the PM.

Here's where the Commonwealth comes in. It is one "State" (in the sense used in "Head of State"), but multiple governments. The Queen is Head of State in Canada and Australia, but has no power over their governments, since they're independent COUNTRIES; nor does the British Parliament have any voice in their affairs.

And btw the existence of a Prime Minister, while a remnant of actual monarchic government (which is nearly extinct today), isn't necessarily an indication of even a monarchic state, just of a parliamentary system: Israel has ministers and a Prime Minister, and has never had a monarch in its 57-year history.

This is my understanding. However, I'm an ignorant American, and any part of it may be wrong. Please correct me if so.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations


Page: 123

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