Forums > Social Discussion > Why prejudice?
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So from the other thread...
Why prejudice?
I view prejudice as the junction of fear and arrogance. If someone is afraid of, say, gay people and is too arrogant to even consider that their beliefs may be founded in falsehood, then it becomes hatred, intolerance, cruelty. It's amazing how some people are so arrogant that they will hurt others rather than examine their own beliefs.
Burz called me a liar in a PM. He called me a bald-faced liar who was too weak to face up to it. Now, there's no reason behind that statement. I was a liar, yes. Back when I was in the closet and too weak to face up to my sexuality.
But Burz was so arrogant and so unwilling to examine his beliefs that it became hatred and even cruelty. So he decided that he'd rather believe that an Eagle Scout would lie than believe that he might just possibly be wrong about something.
That's my view and that's why I have no sympathy or empathy for bigots. That's why I refuse to "see their point of view." I mean, Hitler was the king of bigotry. We see what happens when people try to do that.
So from the other thread...
Why prejudice?
I view prejudice as the junction of fear and arrogance. If someone is afraid of, say, gay people and is too arrogant to even consider that their beliefs may be founded in falsehood, then it becomes hatred, intolerance, cruelty. It's amazing how some people are so arrogant that they will hurt others rather than examine their own beliefs.
Burz called me a liar in a PM. He called me a bald-faced liar who was too weak to face up to it. Now, there's no reason behind that statement. I was a liar, yes. Back when I was in the closet and too weak to face up to my sexuality.
But Burz was so arrogant and so unwilling to examine his beliefs that it became hatred and even cruelty. So he decided that he'd rather believe that an Eagle Scout would lie than believe that he might just possibly be wrong about something.
That's my view and that's why I have no sympathy or empathy for bigots. That's why I refuse to "see their point of view." I mean, Hitler was the king of bigotry. We see what happens when people try to do that.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
Posted:
im not saying nessasarily sayi9ng that people are prejudiced becuse their comunity has taught them to discriminate against a certain group, though it is sometimes the case, but that, because of the limited environment they have lived in they are not aware, accepting, of people, beliefs they havent encountered or dont understand
prejudice is a result of both situations(bigotry and environment)
im not saying nessasarily sayi9ng that people are prejudiced becuse their comunity has taught them to discriminate against a certain group, though it is sometimes the case, but that, because of the limited environment they have lived in they are not aware, accepting, of people, beliefs they havent encountered or dont understand
prejudice is a result of both situations(bigotry and environment)
if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
How about this then:
People are prejudiced becuse their comunity supports discrimination.
How about this then:
People are prejudiced becuse their comunity supports discrimination.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Stone, it looks like I didn't explain myself properly in my earlier posts.
I am not defending those who are bigotted in anyway, nor am I saying that their actions are ok.
I'm trying to point out that I noticed in myself an DECREASE in tolerance towards people I perceived to be bigots, as my general tolerance of others INCREASED.
After some soul searching, I found that this was very ironic, and that the more I felt I was accepting of others, the more bigotted I became against those who I considered to be bigots.
It's quite a hard concept to get your head around, but hopefully the theory of it is understandable, (even if you don't agree).
Stone, it looks like I didn't explain myself properly in my earlier posts.
I am not defending those who are bigotted in anyway, nor am I saying that their actions are ok.
I'm trying to point out that I noticed in myself an DECREASE in tolerance towards people I perceived to be bigots, as my general tolerance of others INCREASED.
After some soul searching, I found that this was very ironic, and that the more I felt I was accepting of others, the more bigotted I became against those who I considered to be bigots.
It's quite a hard concept to get your head around, but hopefully the theory of it is understandable, (even if you don't agree).
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Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
Hmm...
One thing I've kind of learned in my limited life experience is that most people have prejudices, but not everyone acts on them.
Acting on prejudices breeds or is discrimination...
For example:
Someone prejudice against people of color doesn't always act on it.
Someone who does act on that prejudice by, say calling someone a name or beating them up is discrimination.
Same thing with someone who is prejudice against homosexuals.
People who understand they have prejudices and try to learn why, and don't act upon them in a negative way are open minded.
I don't know if I'm making sense, but that's just what I've learned about me and many folks around me...
I don't know that it necessarily has to do with whether a community as a whole encourages discrimination or not..though such an atmosphere would certainly breed more discrimination and perhaps not help people try to understand their own prejudices.
EDITED_BY: SpitFire (1090895296)
Hmm...
One thing I've kind of learned in my limited life experience is that most people have prejudices, but not everyone acts on them.
Acting on prejudices breeds or is discrimination...
For example:
Someone prejudice against people of color doesn't always act on it.
Someone who does act on that prejudice by, say calling someone a name or beating them up is discrimination.
Same thing with someone who is prejudice against homosexuals.
People who understand they have prejudices and try to learn why, and don't act upon them in a negative way are open minded.
I don't know if I'm making sense, but that's just what I've learned about me and many folks around me...
I don't know that it necessarily has to do with whether a community as a whole encourages discrimination or not..though such an atmosphere would certainly breed more discrimination and perhaps not help people try to understand their own prejudices.
EDITED_BY: SpitFire (1090895296)
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Amen. Xopher, you and I need to meet one day, and go out for a drink (or two or three) and a very LOOOOOOONG chat...
Written by: Xopher
Anyone who is awake and paying attention will be confronted with facts that don't match their beliefs about the world from time to time.
Some people verify the facts, and then change their beliefs about the world to include the new information.
Others deny the facts. This type of person exhibits what I call "Acquired Stupidity Syndrome," which is not a lack of native intelligence, but a process of rejecting new information. It is impossible to reason with such a person because they've already decided on all the answers - when the other type of person knows they don't even know all the questions yet.
Amen. Xopher, you and I need to meet one day, and go out for a drink (or two or three) and a very LOOOOOOONG chat...
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
But what's wrong with that? Intolerance is the only thing that it's OK to be intolerant of (well, that and murder, rape, theft, etc.)
Bigotry is bad. So I'll accept that I'm intolerant of it, but I'll maintain that it's a good thing.
Written by: Charles
I'm trying to point out that I noticed in myself an DECREASE in tolerance towards people I perceived to be bigots, as my general tolerance of others INCREASED.
But what's wrong with that? Intolerance is the only thing that it's OK to be intolerant of (well, that and murder, rape, theft, etc.)
Bigotry is bad. So I'll accept that I'm intolerant of it, but I'll maintain that it's a good thing.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Then, by your own logic, the people who 'know' that homosexuality is bad, or that black people are bad, shoudl accept their own intolerence.
They will maintain that their attitude is a 'good thing'.
My apologies if it seems that I'm nitpicking here, but if we are to condemn others for condemning others, the entire logic of the argument seems inherently flawed.
I'm not saying I don't do it, although I try not to as much as I can.
Spitfire said something about not acting on it, which is right on the button. Not acting on a prejudice towards prejudiced people would be to treat them like everyone else.
Perhaps another angle that is part of my philosophy, is you can't fight fire with fire, when people are involved.
If you respond to intolerance with intolerance, then the world will be a bit worse off than before.
If you respond with indifference, then the world remains the same.
If you respond with kindness, and understanding then the world will be a little bit better.
If you are not willing to accept people because of their beliefs, how can you expect them to change their beliefs to accept others? Lead by example, and accept them first, to show them the way they could be...
(All in my opinion of course)
Then, by your own logic, the people who 'know' that homosexuality is bad, or that black people are bad, shoudl accept their own intolerence.
They will maintain that their attitude is a 'good thing'.
My apologies if it seems that I'm nitpicking here, but if we are to condemn others for condemning others, the entire logic of the argument seems inherently flawed.
I'm not saying I don't do it, although I try not to as much as I can.
Spitfire said something about not acting on it, which is right on the button. Not acting on a prejudice towards prejudiced people would be to treat them like everyone else.
Perhaps another angle that is part of my philosophy, is you can't fight fire with fire, when people are involved.
If you respond to intolerance with intolerance, then the world will be a bit worse off than before.
If you respond with indifference, then the world remains the same.
If you respond with kindness, and understanding then the world will be a little bit better.
If you are not willing to accept people because of their beliefs, how can you expect them to change their beliefs to accept others? Lead by example, and accept them first, to show them the way they could be...
(All in my opinion of course)
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Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
It can be difficult to not respond, though, Charles, especially when someone hurls insults towards you, or, as has happened to some folks, hurls punches. In such instances, it would be impossible for me to respond with kindness.
Now, I may well be frustrated by someone who is clearly homophobic and uses their religious beliefs to justify their intolerance...in fact, I'll admit to being intolerant of their behavior....however I don't necessarily act on my feelings.
It is a noble idea to strive for, though....to accept those who are intolerant when they won't accept me. I'm not sure I have the tolerance and patience within me to accept someone who uses religious rhetoric to claim they are better than me.
I strive to be the best person I can be. I try to get along with my fellow human beings, but there is no guarantee they will try to get along with me.
It can be difficult to not respond, though, Charles, especially when someone hurls insults towards you, or, as has happened to some folks, hurls punches. In such instances, it would be impossible for me to respond with kindness.
Now, I may well be frustrated by someone who is clearly homophobic and uses their religious beliefs to justify their intolerance...in fact, I'll admit to being intolerant of their behavior....however I don't necessarily act on my feelings.
It is a noble idea to strive for, though....to accept those who are intolerant when they won't accept me. I'm not sure I have the tolerance and patience within me to accept someone who uses religious rhetoric to claim they are better than me.
I strive to be the best person I can be. I try to get along with my fellow human beings, but there is no guarantee they will try to get along with me.
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Charles, there's a difference between chosen behaviors and non-chosen traits. The choice to be so arrogant as to not accept new information is reprehensible.
Being born with dark skin isn't.
Charles, there's a difference between chosen behaviors and non-chosen traits. The choice to be so arrogant as to not accept new information is reprehensible.
Being born with dark skin isn't.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Posted:
I quite agree. As I've said before, I predict that you and I will be instant and permanent friends as soon as we meet. Though I suspect our conversation will be hard for others (those afflicted with LTD, or Linear Thinking Disorder) to follow.
Written by: There is no 'e' in 'Lightning'
Xopher, you and I need to meet one day, and go out for a drink (or two or three) and a very LOOOOOOONG chat...
I quite agree. As I've said before, I predict that you and I will be instant and permanent friends as soon as we meet. Though I suspect our conversation will be hard for others (those afflicted with LTD, or Linear Thinking Disorder) to follow.
"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations
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Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
----< Takes off his moderators cap>----
Lightning...I really do apologise for going on about this with you so much, but please re-read your comment above.
I believe (and once again, I'm sorry f this sounds agressive) that the arrogance mentioned above is present in most of your comments towards these people.
It is your arrogance in assuming that a certain number of people have 'chosen' to be bigots that I found hard ot understand. I do not believe that anyone has the full and total knowledge required of another person to 'know', for certain, that they have made a personal choice without any environmental factors affecting that choice.
It seems to me that you hate these people as much as they seem to hate certain others, and that you appear to refuse to accept new information of ways of seeing these people and how they came to be the way they are.
I think I will have to end my part in this discussion from now on, as it seems we will both have to agree to disagree on the way we both feel about this issue.
However, may I please ask you again, a question which has been asked of you several times in this thread already....
Do you think you understand what i am trying to say and simply disagree, or am I not making myself clear enough to be properly understood?
My hope is that it is the former, and not the latter...
--------
----< Takes off his moderators cap>----
Written by:
The choice to be so arrogant as to not accept new information is reprehensible.
Lightning...I really do apologise for going on about this with you so much, but please re-read your comment above.
I believe (and once again, I'm sorry f this sounds agressive) that the arrogance mentioned above is present in most of your comments towards these people.
It is your arrogance in assuming that a certain number of people have 'chosen' to be bigots that I found hard ot understand. I do not believe that anyone has the full and total knowledge required of another person to 'know', for certain, that they have made a personal choice without any environmental factors affecting that choice.
It seems to me that you hate these people as much as they seem to hate certain others, and that you appear to refuse to accept new information of ways of seeing these people and how they came to be the way they are.
I think I will have to end my part in this discussion from now on, as it seems we will both have to agree to disagree on the way we both feel about this issue.
However, may I please ask you again, a question which has been asked of you several times in this thread already....
Do you think you understand what i am trying to say and simply disagree, or am I not making myself clear enough to be properly understood?
My hope is that it is the former, and not the latter...
----
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GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I guess, Charles. But if it helps, it's a question I've struggled with, too.
When Hitler was busy making plans, one of them was to come up with a "Museum of a Lost Race" where they would display Jewish art and other Jewish works. People would walk around the museum and go "Wow, this is bad art, bad bad bad, because it's Jewish."
Are we guilty of the same crime with the word "bigot" or "Nazi" or "homophobe"?
I've struggled with it. I've realized that it's one of those places where moral relativism kicks itself in the butt.
So I think back to when I realized that racism was wrong. I was maybe four or five. At that age, kids are big into the concept of "fairness." "But that's not fair! I got punished because Billy hit me!" And I decided that it wasn't fair to punish someone because they were born a certain way because it wasn't their fault and you should only punish people for things that are their fault.
When did you decide that racism was wrong? And do you remember why?
Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone, I'm not trying to change anyone's views, least of all yours, Charles. I need to process this through for myself. In discussing it and debating with others, I get to consider and try to address different points of view on the issue.
That's why I started this thread.
I guess, Charles. But if it helps, it's a question I've struggled with, too.
When Hitler was busy making plans, one of them was to come up with a "Museum of a Lost Race" where they would display Jewish art and other Jewish works. People would walk around the museum and go "Wow, this is bad art, bad bad bad, because it's Jewish."
Are we guilty of the same crime with the word "bigot" or "Nazi" or "homophobe"?
I've struggled with it. I've realized that it's one of those places where moral relativism kicks itself in the butt.
So I think back to when I realized that racism was wrong. I was maybe four or five. At that age, kids are big into the concept of "fairness." "But that's not fair! I got punished because Billy hit me!" And I decided that it wasn't fair to punish someone because they were born a certain way because it wasn't their fault and you should only punish people for things that are their fault.
When did you decide that racism was wrong? And do you remember why?
Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument with anyone, I'm not trying to change anyone's views, least of all yours, Charles. I need to process this through for myself. In discussing it and debating with others, I get to consider and try to address different points of view on the issue.
That's why I started this thread.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
Posted:
thanks for starting this lightning, its an important thing for people to consider, i dont really think its someting anyone could make a decision on
i get what your saying Charles, its something i struggle with to, is it fair to consider someone "evil" or 'wrong" when they are only doing or believing what they think is right?
someone mentioned this as earlier... i hate it when the only argument that someon ehas against a issue or person comes from the bible, i dont mind that peoples beliefs often originate in their religion, as long as they have an educated argument to go along with it
some one has also said that their are those who do have prejudices but do not act on them, i admire this because it demonstrates self control and acknowlagement of the fact that their judgement is flawed
but i also struggle with the subject that having beliefs and not acting on them dosent make alot of sense either
it relates to policies on homosexuality: you can be gay, but you cant participate in intimate relations with someone of the same sex, this is like saying that you can be a golfer, but arent alowed to actually golf, or that you can be a swimer, but cant actually swim
i dont know, sometimes this world terrifies me
STOP BUSH
peace(hopefully)
thanks for starting this lightning, its an important thing for people to consider, i dont really think its someting anyone could make a decision on
i get what your saying Charles, its something i struggle with to, is it fair to consider someone "evil" or 'wrong" when they are only doing or believing what they think is right?
someone mentioned this as earlier... i hate it when the only argument that someon ehas against a issue or person comes from the bible, i dont mind that peoples beliefs often originate in their religion, as long as they have an educated argument to go along with it
some one has also said that their are those who do have prejudices but do not act on them, i admire this because it demonstrates self control and acknowlagement of the fact that their judgement is flawed
but i also struggle with the subject that having beliefs and not acting on them dosent make alot of sense either
it relates to policies on homosexuality: you can be gay, but you cant participate in intimate relations with someone of the same sex, this is like saying that you can be a golfer, but arent alowed to actually golf, or that you can be a swimer, but cant actually swim
i dont know, sometimes this world terrifies me
STOP BUSH
peace(hopefully)
if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes
SILVER Member
....
344 posts
Location: Midlands - nr cov, United Kingdom
....
344 posts
Location: Midlands - nr cov, United Kingdom
Posted:
It makes sense to me
"homosexuality is wrong" - Prejudice.
It's my thought (it's not, but for the sake of argument)
but just because it's my thought, I'm not going to go around shouting to all gays "you're wrong, you're evil/sick/whatever".
And at the same time, I'm probably there trying to look it up. I might know that it's not good to have that view (much like "apartheid should still exist"), but that doesn't mean i can automatically get rid of it.
Prejudices remain for a long time.. I read a psych study recently, discussing prejudice in the deep south. The white men and women they interviewed said they fully accepted that black people where no better or worse that white people, but said they still felt uneasy shaking the hand of a black person.
As for the homosexuality and "acting" thing, it doesn't go. It's possible to consider yourself in a relationship with someone, and not have sex with them. In Lyra's example then, you can be gay and have a relationship and not have sex (which sems to be the defining feature of a lot of people's idea of "gay" - how many times did people say to me "how can you possibly know you're gay if you've never been with a woman?")
For myself, usually if someone tells me something that inclines me towards an "ick" reaction, i look it up. The internet is a good place
It makes sense to me
"homosexuality is wrong" - Prejudice.
It's my thought (it's not, but for the sake of argument)
but just because it's my thought, I'm not going to go around shouting to all gays "you're wrong, you're evil/sick/whatever".
And at the same time, I'm probably there trying to look it up. I might know that it's not good to have that view (much like "apartheid should still exist"), but that doesn't mean i can automatically get rid of it.
Prejudices remain for a long time.. I read a psych study recently, discussing prejudice in the deep south. The white men and women they interviewed said they fully accepted that black people where no better or worse that white people, but said they still felt uneasy shaking the hand of a black person.
As for the homosexuality and "acting" thing, it doesn't go. It's possible to consider yourself in a relationship with someone, and not have sex with them. In Lyra's example then, you can be gay and have a relationship and not have sex (which sems to be the defining feature of a lot of people's idea of "gay" - how many times did people say to me "how can you possibly know you're gay if you've never been with a woman?")
For myself, usually if someone tells me something that inclines me towards an "ick" reaction, i look it up. The internet is a good place
"But what would you do with a brain if you had one?"
Dorothy Gale
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Of course you can be gay and not have sex. Duh.
But I think it's pretty darned unfair to expect me to be celibate and single all my life because of it.
Of course you can be gay and not have sex. Duh.
But I think it's pretty darned unfair to expect me to be celibate and single all my life because of it.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
HOP Lord of the Pirate Admiralty
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
1,079 posts
Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted:
ignorance.
ignorance.
D.B.
X x X x X
Ship off the starboard! sound general quarters! noise and light discipline! man the cannons! GET ME THE RUM!
Master of the Free Hug Program
SILVER Member
....
344 posts
Location: Midlands - nr cov, United Kingdom
....
344 posts
Location: Midlands - nr cov, United Kingdom
Posted:
My point
I agree. The only person shouting those kinds of words should be the person themselves. If THEY want to be gay and celibate fine. You said yourself you believe you came acros such a guy in surgery... But it's not for me to say you should be celebate. (on the contrary, sex is good for you, a doctor said so
)
Written by: There is no 'e' in 'Lightning'
Of course you can be gay and not have sex. Duh.
My point
Written by:
But I think it's pretty darned unfair to expect me to be celibate and single all my life because of it.
I agree. The only person shouting those kinds of words should be the person themselves. If THEY want to be gay and celibate fine. You said yourself you believe you came acros such a guy in surgery... But it's not for me to say you should be celebate. (on the contrary, sex is good for you, a doctor said so
) "But what would you do with a brain if you had one?"
Dorothy Gale
SILVER Member
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
Posted:
i know you can be gay and not have sex, but that shouldent be the policy, i really dont know enough about this so ill stop posting before i offend anyone
i know you can be gay and not have sex, but that shouldent be the policy, i really dont know enough about this so ill stop posting before i offend anyone
if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes
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