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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:I'm suffering from a nasal infection (otherwise known as the sexy bug redface ubbangel) and went to the doctor and got anti-biotics because I had one a few months ago and it wouldn't go away without 'em.

My girlfriend wanted me to go to a homeopath. She went to one recently with fantasic results and I know a few people who practise it.

I wasn't convinced that it was the best path with this particular ailment anyway. Could a homeopath have done something for this? What role should homeopathy play in the modern world? Complementing or replacing medical science?

In my limited understanding of things I believe homeopathy to have it's place. It also seems to highlight some cultural differences like the different approaches of eastern and western medicine.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Well the miracle of modern science proved not to be so miraculous and more and more people are turning to the 'old' remedies.

Homeopathy / acupuncture / Massage etc are all complementary therapies.

Anti-biotics are all very well and good but they don't get to the source of the infection. Complimentary therapies are great in that they view the body holistically and the aim is to keep the body healthy rather than solely cure a sickness. So many doctors I find treat the symptoms without ever getting to the root of the cause. Modern medicine is all about curing the sick instead of helping maintain physical health. Prevention is better than cure and all that jazz.
Following is a very interesting article Radical Healing & Rebirth of Science

A friend is training to be homeopath in Dublin, her school was looking for volunteers. If you're interested I'll send you her email in case they are still looking for guinea pigs


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:YEa, I rang them but they couldn't see me for another 2 weeks and I was getting worse by the day biggrin

I told my dad to ring them for his headaches though.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo, my mums a homepath, tho that dosnt nesacerally mean i beleive it, but i have had great results. Its certainly not going to do any harm to anything other than your wallet. and i hate antibiotics.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:Quote:
Modern medicine is all about curing the sick instead of helping maintain physical health. Prevention is better than cure and all that jazz.



Uh where did you get this idea? Perhaps it's neglected by practioners, but there is plenty of effort in the area of prevention on the side of modern medical science.

Personally I think if you have a bad bacterial infection the best way to deal with it is phage medicine, not anti-biotics or balancing chakras, but homeopathy can't hurt to prevent the infection. You can learn how to prevent if from studying modern medicine and eastern.

Unfortunatly phage medicine is greatly ignored and unavaible in this region of the world.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Homeopathy is a word that I think a lot of people misunderstand.

Homeopathy is based on the idea that every condition is caused by a poison of some sort, and that a very dilute solution of that poison will cure that condition. So what happens is that some substance is dissolved and then diluted over and over and over to the point that there is on average less than one molecule of whatever that substance was in a given dose of a homeopathic remedy.

The theory is that the water in which the substance was resolved has a "memory" that retains some essense of the substance. Somehow, this "memory of the water" is what treats disease.

A few poorly done studies have shown efficacy of homeopathic remedies over placebo, but in general, homeopathy is not practiced widely because it is ineffective.

Most people, when they talk about "homeopathy" are actually talking about a constellation of Complimentary and Alternative Medicine (CAM). CAM encompases naturopathy (the use of plants and diet as therapy), mind-body medicine, chiropractic, "oriental" medicine, accupuncture, etc.

Kat, I think your view is a bit simplistic. First of all, there is such a thing as a "true pathogen." A true pathogen is a microbe that causes disease in a healthy host. There is this myth that runs around in CAM circles that if you ever get any sort of infection, you must have some underlying problem. That is absolutely not true. Antibiotics are appropriate first-line and final therapy for any primary infection with a true pathogen. Sometimes, the antibiotic isn't even used to treat the disease, but to prevent associated problems. For example, it is important to treat strep throat not because the infection won't clear on its own, but because treating it within 10 days of onset of symptoms virtually eliminates the risk of developing rheumatic heart disease as a complication.

However, when an infection keeps returning, that's when simply throwing antibiotics at it is an inappropriate solution. It means something is going wrong. Either not enough antibiotics are getting used, and thus the infection is not ever truly clearing, or there is something wrong with the patient that predisposes them to this infection. Smoking predisposes people to infection with certain bugs (Legionnaire's Disease, for example) that non-smokers don't get. But once the infection is there, it does need to be treated.

Medicine is, unfortunately, based primarily on treating illness. This is because healthy people rarely seek medical care. How many healthy people on this board go to the doctor every year for an annual physical? Many women do, but most young men don't. However, some do, and when that happens, we do have an opportunity to discuss prevention and health maintainence.

robotface, phage therapy has been tried in the past, and although there does seem to be a renewed interest, it has a number of pitfalls. First, phages are very immunogenic. Second, phages are too large in many cases to reach bacteria. For example, phages aren't going to be able to get into the middle of an abscess or cross the blood-brain barrier. Third, in a wild setting, resistance to phage infection evolves rather rapidly in populations of bacteria. As the population of the bacteria falls, the phage density will also fall unless a continuous infusion is used...and only if the patient does not have antibodies to the phage.

The majority of antibiotics in use today are quite safe, although toxicities are well-known and, like anything, they are not risk-free. I want to emphasize that nothing is risk-free.

At our center, we are using a number of natural therapies for a number of conditions. For example, high blood lipids are treated with fish oil. We employ pet therapy, massage therapy, and even aromatherapy in the inpatient setting.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Katrina
GOLD Member since May 2004

Katrina

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 352
Posted:I think alternative therapies are a great idea, especially when normal doctors are censored



However, I'm just basing that on personal experience.


One day i'll learn to resist gravity...

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:DSS, I think there are many advantages in embracing complementary and alternative medicine, but I dunno about homoeopathy. Its is probably due to bad press, but I associate homoeopathy with water diets which have unfortunately caused the death of a number of children in my country.

If the body is run down then it will be pre-disposed to infection. Antibiotics are appropriate if the pathogen is a bacteria, although many people seem to think that antibiotics are effective against viruses. Another reason that antibiotics don't work as well any more is because the bacteria, which cause the disease, have become resistant to the antibiotic. Resistance has become a problem because antibiotics have been used as a cure all, and people don't finish the treatment, which lets the resistant population build up.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Gnor's Bill
SILVER Member since Apr 2004

Gnor's Bill

member
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Total posts: 26
Posted:Ever visited a country where the only medicine available is "complimentary"?
Or maybe speak with people whose lost their children to curable (by Western Medicine) diseases but decided to stick with their traditional methods first?

Westerners are lucky. Western medicine works wonders and we take it for granted. But Doctors can be their own worst enemies. Most sick people will get better without medicine but "support" like a little attention (and kind words) can make people feel so much better. The human body is a fierce healer of itself (it has had to be historically) and can fix most things itself given time and no complications (like extra infections). Most modern doctors are in a hurry and don't spend a lot of time with patients. The practitioners of complimentary medicine tend to be more supportive and come across as more caring and I am sure this all helps their case.

At the end of the day you can choose for yourself but I know what I would put my faith in. You may never hear of the disasters caused by complimentary medicne but i assure you they happen (I work in a hospital) and this includes pain and death.

Cheers,

Bill...


If found wandering please return to Gnor.

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:Why don't they teach how to look after yourself in high school? I learned a bit on healthy diet and living, but no one actually taught a bit of self care in case of sickness. A lot of sickness can be nipped in the bud if you start careing for youself when you notice your sick .



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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:i think homeopathy works but i would use it in conjunction with conventional ,scientific treatment.Modern medicine has wonderful instruments that can see things that would otherwise go unnoticed,so i'd get a diagnosis and then decide....i've had amazing results with homeopathy and i trust it but sometimes not the homeopath.Same goes for doctors and conventional medicine.

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BurningByron


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 340
Posted:Lightning,

I am currently sitting in on GP consultations as part of my 1st year med course. The doctor I'm currently assigned to learnt something he called trigger therapy in America which he claims to be taking off in the US. He uses vibrating electronic pulse thingys and syringes filled with local anesthetic to set off these so called trigger points to relax muscles...???...

Have you heard of this before??
What's your take on it??


HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Quote:
Kat, I think your view is a bit simplistic

Sorry post was indeed a bit simplistic.

By Complementary therapies that means therapies in addition to medicine. I don't approve of complementary therapies been used instead of medicine.

Instead of using the term 'modern medicine' I should have used 'traditional medicine'. I am referring to not all but a huge majority of 'traditional' doctors who scoff at complementary therapies, are clueless about nutrition and believe antibiotics and drugs are the saviour our lord.

From experience I have to say - old school doctors are crap! I have not needed to go to a doctor for about 4 years and that was for a whack on the ankle so hopefully the medical profession have improved. I've never been a fan of the old school medical profession who are keen to throw anti-biotics at you if you sneeze! My brother has been fed medicine for kidney infections for the past few years, but he was still sick so eventually he begged to be referred to a specialist. Specialist ruled out any trouble with his kidneys and he's now been sent for a colonoscopy. He only had his first blood test taken now, he's never had any tests for allergies etc. First reaction of the doctors was to throw medicine at him for 3 years without actually finding out what was wrong. confused He's so worried that he's taken to blessing himself with holy water and promised to go to mass every week so that he can get better eek Doctors have not done anything for him so he thinks maybe Jesus can! I had a prescription junkie grandmother, I nearly was hospitalised when I was given antibiotics for back 'flu' - (did not even know your back could get the flu!)

Doctors told my mother that she would be in a wheelchair by now but she credits complimentary therapies for the fact she's still running to and fro, not a cane in sight never mind a wheelchair.

My flatmate will graduate as a doctor this year. He's just spent 2 months training in Nepal and was amazed at the skill of the doctors who did not have the equipment that so many Western doctors rely on - their intuition, skill and experience were their most important tools of their medicine.

My point is that this is not the first time DSS has been to the doctor. When he was last there he had to queue for ages to be thrown antibiotics by a disinterested doctor. If the doctor is not interested in finding out what is the root of the infection, then talking to a trained professional who may help is extremely beneficial.

I don't care if 'doctors' are so busy! I want to find out whats wrong not just have pills thrown at me. I think a lot of people have had the old methods that fell by the wayside with the advent of the miracle of medicine.


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:I think all types of medicine have their place, but for me keeping a medicine as natural as possible makes me feel better, and probably helps the placebo given my mental well being and higher trust levels with it, although I used to believe it was all crap!

The change for me came with my hayfever. I used to suffer chronic hayfever from early April through to the end of september/early october. You name it I reacted. Tree pollen, flower pollen, grass pollen, the whole damn lot! I used to spend my school summer vacation lying in a darkened room with cool wet cotton pads on my eyes to hopefully releive some itchyness. I tried everything the doctor threw at us, from Triludan (which we later found out was known to have lots of really bad side effects) to Piriton and nothing worked. They even started to pescribe me asthma madicine because my overcrowded synuses (sp?) made me get a heavy chest. The best I ever got was releif of some symptoms by way of decongestant to stop my nose being so fluid! The cause was never tackled during my entire youth.
Then we found a natural treatment, I had to take a full packet (about 96 tabs I think) before the season started to build me up and to keep taking another pack when the season kicked off and then just when I needed a top up. I went from about 6 months of hayfever suffering down to 2 weeks within a year!! Amazing change not possibly caused by anything other than the new (old!) medicine, a medicine that helped the cause of my hayfever and not just trying to releive symptoms. The natural medicine helped my body to help itself, few modern medicines (in my experience) seem to do this.
Personally I think this is a major problem with many modern medicines, relieving the symptoms not the cause seems to be the priority. (obvoiusly not talking of surgeries/etc, just medicines) If the traditional and complementary medicines worked together more I think we'd see a lot of improvements. They both have masses of knowledge & a range of techniques the other has no idea of. Perhaps when some ego breaks down about the both will improve in the world of medicine making it a better place for us all.


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:One of my theories as to why alternative medicines can sometimes be so much more effective than conventional medicine, even though there seems to be no scientific basis as to why they should work; is that the patient is spared the damage that can come from conventional approaches and their bodies can get on with healing themselves.

I can relate heavily to Kats examples- coming from a poor background, I've also seen numerous relatives, disempowered and extremely gullible when it comes to taking what doctors say as gospel truth, have their lives ruined by inappropriate treatments.

No disrespect to those members of the board who work in conventional medicine- I know that many benefit from the good aspects of conventional medicine, and I also know that many have suffered from bad alternative approaches as well.

It's just that my experience of conventional medicine has made me see going to the doctor as very much a last resort.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:[quoteI am currently sitting in on GP consultations as part of my 1st year med course. The doctor I'm currently assigned to learnt something he called trigger therapy in America which he claims to be taking off in the US. He uses vibrating electronic pulse thingys and syringes filled with local anesthetic to set off these so called trigger points to relax muscles...???...




Byron, I haven't heard anything about it. But if you're in med school, this would be an excellent time to get in a really good habit:

Look it up and read about it if you can.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Lyra
SILVER Member since Feb 2004

spiny norman
Location: Cincinnati,damn it

Total posts: 314
Posted:id say dont over do it on the antibiotics, what do you think of the case where a family was taken to court for neglecting their child because he was dieing of something and they didnt belive in medical treatment in their religion, so they were just letting him die? sad really

if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
id say dont over do it on the antibiotics, what do you think of the case where a family was taken to court for neglecting their child because he was dieing of something and they didnt belive in medical treatment in their religion, so they were just letting him die? sad really



I think it's abuse. Even prisoners have a right to medical treatment.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:what the hell religion is this? the only religion ive heard of that has an issue with medical treatment is only in relation to blood transfusion, and that's jehova witnesses specifically. Im surely no an export on religiouns though, especially those outside of the christian/muslim/hindu/buddhist realm.

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Agree with Mike on this. How could anyone condone refusing treatment if it offerred even the slightest chance their child would live frown
Freedom of Religion or State sanctioned child abuse


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Sounds similar to Dr. Clarks Zappertech. Either her site or some other one gives instructions how to build your own I seem to recall or you can buy them from various websites.
Dr. Hulda Clark Research Assoc
Buy Neuro Muscular Stimulator


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Quote:
robotface, phage therapy has been tried in the past, and although there does seem to be a renewed interest, it has a number of pitfalls. First, phages are very immunogenic. Second, phages are too large in many cases to reach bacteria. For example, phages aren't going to be able to get into the middle of an abscess or cross the blood-brain barrier. Third, in a wild setting, resistance to phage infection evolves rather rapidly in populations of bacteria. As the population of the bacteria falls, the phage density will also fall unless a continuous infusion is used...and only if the patient does not have antibodies to the phage.


Phage therapy was abandoned in the West pretty much with the discovery of penicillin, but it has still been used in places like the Republic of Georgia ever since then and is increasingly being looking into here, especially given the increase in things like MRSA. Anyway, if the bacteria develop resistance then the phages also adapt just as quickly. Also a small initial dosage is needed as growth is exponential as long as there are any bacteria left to target... afterwards it drops off reasonably quickly.

And surely since phages only attack a particular type of bacteria the body's immune system isn't involved in any way at all? In fact unlike antibiotics they don't have any negative effect on microflora at all.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:


Phage therapy was abandoned in the West pretty much with the discovery of penicillin, but it has still been used in places like the Republic of Georgia ever since then and is increasingly being looking into here, especially given the increase in things like MRSA. Anyway, if the bacteria develop resistance then the phages also adapt just as quickly. Also a small initial dosage is needed as growth is exponential as long as there are any bacteria left to target... afterwards it drops off reasonably quickly.





The problem with this is that 1) the phages don't necessarily adapt (if phages were that good, there would be no bacteria in the world) and 2) you wind up in a wild-type situation where there is a predator-prey cycling of populations.



Quote:


And surely since phages only attack a particular type of bacteria the body's immune system isn't involved in any way at all? In fact unlike antibiotics they don't have any negative effect on microflora at all.







Oh, the immune system absolutely is involved. The immune system will attack any foreign protein. That's why blood types and organs need to be matched. A phage is an excellent immunogen because it is a virus, and even though it doesn't infect animal cells, the immune system is designed to recognize the symmetry of a viral capsid. Sometimes it even attacks the host (autoimmunity). The immune system attacks foreign things, not only harmful things.



I actually studied under one of the world's leading experts on bacteriophages, and he filled me in on all this stuff when I was earning my Masters.



The other problem with phages is that they are very specific. A specific phage will infect only a specific species of bacteria. If you haven't been able to positively culture and identify the bacterium responsible for the infection, you can't target it with a phage.



I have found some web pages on phage therapy being used in Georgia, but nothing in the medical literature that looks particularly promising.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Sorry for being offtopic but.......

Quote:
Quote:
....a family was taken to court for neglecting their child because he was dieing of something and they didnt belive in medical treatment in their religion, so they were just letting him die? sad really



I think it's abuse. Even prisoners have a right to medical treatment.



I'm kinda hung jury on this one, yes I don't agree with it by my own principles but I also believe we can't appropriately comment on another cultures befiefs. If they truly had this belief that stopped them administering the required medical attention they must have also believed they were doing the right thing by their religion/god etc. I've seen and read about the old Mauri tattoo techniques where they slice and lift off sections of skin before pouring in ink when the boys are 14 and that too could be called abuse, just like enforced circumcision (sp?) and many others can.
And with the thinking of circumcision, as most American males seem to have this done and at an age where they can't realistically refuse, for reasons of lessening sexual feelings wrapped around a myth of "improved cleanliness" is this abuse??

I can understand how this in itself can be abused and the hard position it makes for law making/enforcement etc.

Does anyone know what the child thought of this? Maybe the childs belief in this culture was also to refuse medical treatment, would it then still count as abuse?


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:ok quite off topic by the end of that so here's a thread for it

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Quote:
The other problem with phages is that they are very specific. A specific phage will infect only a specific species of bacteria. If you haven't been able to positively culture and identify the bacterium responsible for the infection, you can't target it with a phage.


The specificity is one of the things in their favour... as I said, they don't cause some of the damage that antibiotics do. But I'm not trying to push them as a replacement... they're most likely to be best used in conjunction with antibiotics as neither of them interfere with each other.

There's a reasonable amount of interest in it in the West, lots of which is summarised here

http://www.evergreen.edu/phage/phagetherapy/phagetherapy.html
br>
with references. And a few meetings every year so I guess there is interest smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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