Forums > Social Chat > poi as viewed by other object manipulators.

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:this comes from the glow vs fire thread, but i thought as a side topic it deserved a separate discussion:

Quote:
Don't know about In other countries but in the UK Poi has had a real hard time getting the respect that it deserves from other forms of object manipulation. Mainly because it's got quite a low entry level and people seemed to make the leap that if it starts easy it must all be easy. This of course is a big pile of poo, it's not about about how high or low the entry level is it's about where you can take it to.




this is only partly true.
as a fanatic juggler i hear the reasons behind this one a lot. and stick up for poi in a juggling-centric world.

the reason other manipulators don't like poi is this: someone starting to juggle takes up this much space: themselves. about 3ft in front of them. and they don't move.

someone starting to poi can learn the three beat weave and dance all over the place, taking up as much space as there is available, and sometimes more than that.

jugglers tend to be a bit more singleminded on trick-learning, which in general is a static activity, and spinners are more dancey( biggrin) and focussed on being beautiful ubblove. if you are trying to learn 9444455555 and some guy keeps meandering through your pattern you are going to get pissed off. whereas most spinners i know if they are hit by another spinner will shrug it off (after an apology tongue) as an occupational hazard.

so this is what i mean by tim being part right.
altho low entry level is part of the problem(the fact that practically anyone can learn enough to dance in a day), most jugglers i know now accept that poi can be tricky, and wierd and wacky, and downright difficult. that doesn't stop them getting angry with what they view as a space infringement.


any opinions on this one?


incidentally it has been one of my major aims to get spinning more recognised by jugglers as a valid circus art, and i felt my mission was in some way fulfilled when luke burrage(juggler extraordinaire, hater of poi ubblol) came up to me after a practise session at the bristol convention and said 'hey. nice poi stuff. is all that [censored] new?', and wanted to know how to get into contact staffcause he liked that too(may have just been polite, i've seen no evidence he's gone anywhere near a stick ubblol ubblol ubblol although knowing him he'll come to renegade in a year or so and spin 9 staffs at once eek)



happy cogitating and spacially-aware spinning
R smile


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Quote:

He's talking about people who do poi because it's easier to get visually interesting fast for reasons of laziness but wanting to show off




Ah, put like that then he's got a point.... except he didn't quite say that tongue
Maybe you know more of what he's trying to say because you know who it is lurking behind the screen name.

Actually, that answers a few of my questions, particularly the one about trying out spinning himself. A little more clarification would be good though.

Just for the record, I found the initial spinning learning curve much easier than that of juggling. In the time I spent getting a reasonable three ball cascade, I picked up the weave (forwards and backwards, with turns), the butterfly and the corkscrew.
I'm not sure how valid those comparisons are though, since I learnt the cascade when I was 10, and didn't have a whole lot of hand-eye coordination then.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:*feels silly* redface

juggler wasn't who i thought he was...

which is strange because he said he was going to register and post the exact same thing as his first post confused obviously people who throw and catch stuff must think alike...

now i'm wondering who juggler really is. umm


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:Simian

Thanks for your interesting posts. Who is this juggler? It can't be me since he said that he had never had any problems with poi, and i'm pretty sure i've slagged off poi in your ear a few times!! Nice post about the workshop last week - i know what u mean about there being to many spinners - a lot of jugglers were getting annoyed, but in that kind of situation I just find a space and start juggling, people will generally move out the way and stay out the way wink -

Only three more weeks to go before us jugglers get our big space back! i will post a long an interesting article on this subject when my boss isn't standing behind me! And thanks for telling everyone I'm a pussy cat.

Hex


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:ubblol

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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brodieman
brodieman

old hand
Location: london
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1024
Posted:Post deleted by brodieman_X
EDITED_BY: brodieman_X (1078145357)


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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:edited - hug for Brodie smile



i'm pretty disappointed at how this thread is seen by many as a call to defend their poi against the nasty poi haters. Totally apart from the fact that that is totally unneccesary on a poi forum where everyone likes poi, it's also an immediate THEM vs US reaction which is utterly wrong-headed.



Poi is disliked for valid reasons. We have to understand that, and take steps to minimise it and overturn the prejudices that inconsiderate and bad spinners have caused.

EDITED_BY: simian (1078222424)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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brodieman
brodieman

old hand
Location: london
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1024
Posted:sorry monkey frown am a little stressed frown frown



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hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:I'm going to try and avoid getting into the confrontation that seems to have emerged over people arguing how easy/difficult poi is compared to juggling, being a juggler i find it difficult to swing poi and get into it - i don't know that much poi (but yes, probably more than simian's juggling skills) so therefore find it quite difficult to play. Whereas I can juggle 5 balls and play for hours on end wave

I don't have a problem any more with poi, especially having seen aerotech poi weavesmiley and since I've started hanging out with poi people (and invading their space (albeit vertical space) at their spinning workshop, with my juggling). But yes, I used to have a serious dislike for them, mainly because of the space around them they use up at juggling workshops. There was a time last summer at my local juggling club that most of the space was taken up by spinners (mainly poi), which is ok for a week or two but week after week and it starts to get seriously annoying when u only need two feet of space and can't find it in a large hall.

Nowadays though poi doesn't annoy me because since juggling at the spinning workshop i have realised that poi and staff users actually have a lot of spacial awareness, I never get hit by their equipment. But after the last workshop (note Simian's earlier post) there were far too many spinners in a tiny space. I arrived, found a space and started juggling knowing that spinners would see me and not get in the way. ubblol

By the way Simian, I have no idea where u got the notion from that I (apologies, not sure how to quote yet) "he likes good poi, but gets annoyed by poiers who don't bother to practice, but invade his workshops to show off badly." ...i've been admiring a lot of poi recently, but generally at workshops i look up not sideways.

Hex


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:OK THIS BIT GONE COS ITS NOT NECESSARY ANYMORE.

after brodies edit.

oh the joy of editable forums

hugs a

________________________________________________________________

tooo many sweeping generalisations in this thread:



some jugglers don't get excited about poi

some poi spinners don't get excited about juggling



some poi swingers don't have any sense of whats going on around them

some jugglers don't have any sense of whats going on around them



some poi swingers are very very good dancers

some jugglers are very very good dancers (Gail Biselache (sp?) stefan sing)



some poi spinners are very technical and do things which are really difficult to learn

some jugglers are very technical and do things which are really difficult to learn



something which is very difficult to learn to do is not better, and can (and often does) look really [censored]



lots of juggers are really lovely people

lots of poi swingers are really lovely people.



"BE EXCELELNT TO EACH OTHER"

biggrin biggrin biggrin

EDITED_BY: Glss (1078161658)


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Weasel
the one and only, just like chesney
Location: here
Member Since: 8th Jan 2003
Total posts: 295
Posted:biggrin well said drew biggrin


birds might be able to fly,
but weasels dont get caught in jet engine's

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coza
coza

-Why-
Location: uk, Newcastle / Chester
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2003
Total posts: 126
Posted:i do both and enjoy both tongue

If money is the root of all evil, then why do people sell Bibles?

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WryTerra
WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham
Member Since: 13th Jan 2003
Total posts: 912
Posted:I've been keeping out of this but what I wanted to say hasn't been said and seems so absurdly obvious that I thought I'd add it.

I spin.
I don't go to juggling meet-ups.
I don't go because I'm not a juggler.
I assume if a juggler wants to see/try/talk-about/share the tricks of spinning they will come to a spinning meet-up.
Jugglers have come to the spinning meet-ups I've been to.
There's been no lack of acceptance of spinning from the jugglers who came to spinning meetups, because they spin.

So it seems to me, if you go to a juggling meet-up, and want to be accepted, juggle. Do some poi perhaps but at least show an interest in what the group is about.

Likewise people coming to spinning meet-ups should spin. They can juggle as well, sure, but show some interest in what the group is about.

If you can't or won't show interest in the core skill a group is focussed on, ask yourself this one question: Why are you there?


"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:indeed to Glass

Disagree with Neuron, although i was considering suggesting the same thing before. i don't want to force Hex to spin at spitz (i just gently persuade biggrin). And definite NO to making the monkey juggle just because he's at a workshop called Just Jugglers umm ubbangel

how about some practical advice on what to do when spinners start crowding out others?

the first time i went to one workshop, a juggler gave me a telling off for not respecting peoples space after nearly hitting someone who walked close to me. i still think she was over-reacting a bit ubbangel and we're cool now cool (altho she still has some serious poi issues ubblol)
but it did make me feel very unwelcome at the time, and i nearly never went back frown

so because i don't want to be a killjoy, or make people feel unwelcome, i don't generally tell people when they should maybe cool it a bit and spin smaller.

(One occasion springs to mind from a little while back when two HoPPers who shall remain anonymous *cough[Nix?]coughBrassmonkeycough* were doing horizontal 5' meteor contact tricks in aforementioned small crowded juggling workshop. Still makes me giggle just thinking about it actually ubbtickled)

often i catch myself getting carried away and not remembering that i'm spinning in a confined area.

So if we accept that people (myself included) sometime need 'telling off' more
and that it's in a generally extremely informal and rules free environment
and that we don't generally want to make people feel unwelcome
then how do we do that?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i know peeps is all a bit annoyed and heated about this, but isn't it easier just to be nice to eachother?

if i'm at a poi thing and a juggler thinks i'm getting in the way i just move. I'm not a pushover, but i don't see any POInt in arguing for the sake of a very insignificant bit of space.

if i go to juggling stuff with my bro then i have a go at juggling, even though i'm rubbish and really have very little interest in juggling myself. Admittedly i don't go all the time, and if i did i might not feel like juggling every week, but that's the exact reason why i don't go all the time.

It's comparible to deliberatley getting in the way of a jogger in the street cos you think jogging isn't fun. Frankly it's just rude and i can't think of any other situation where there would even be debate.

We all have to live in this world together! hug


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Fable Goodman
member
Location: Sunderland
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2003
Total posts: 16
Posted:Been enjoying this discussion.

and agree greatly with what glass said.

I get a little amused at juggling workshops, when jugglers are wizzing round the hall on unicycles, snakeboards, ect.. and will happilly play with a whole range of toys which don't clasify as Juggling. then turn round and say that poi shouldn't be allowed because "it's not big, it's not clever and it's certainly not juggling."

If juggling workshops and conventions, stuck only to juggling.... I am sure that even the hard line jugglers would find it a bit boring.

and off course Poi spinning activities can be greatly complimented by good hearted jugglers.

Hugs all round (especially to those who know me)

Fable

(still looking for a path with a heart!)





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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:wow.
didn't read the post that got all this going, but i can guess the contents from the various replies.

this was never intended to be a 'which is better and why' thread, nor a 'why we hate people who do the other' thread, nor even a what is wrong with attitudes' thread, but a '

'what is the current perception of spinning amongst other manipulators, is it positive or negative, why, and if negative, how can we change that, and most importantly, how we can all be contentedly spinning/juggling/handstanding etc alonside each other in harmony' thread.


i for one couldnt agree more with part 2 of drews post.

nice one hug

and a second to 'if you are insulting jugglers indiscriminately you are insulting me' point.
without juggling i would NEVER have started poi spinning.
and i try not to forget my first love.

chill
R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:




I think that Juggler came over here to look after Dave posted a link to this discussion on IJDB.

(a posting that i really don't like)



-----------------------------

"you jugglers seem closed minded and bitchey"

thanks you're insulting me and your insulting most of my lovely juggling friends.

I've been a juggler for 14 years, its how I started poi.





now maybe you want to why don't you go back and reconsider that post.







Hi Glass,



Not sure what you don't like about the posting.



That quote-



-----------------------------------------

"you jugglers seem closed minded and bitchey"

thanks you're insulting me and your insulting most of my lovely juggling friends.

I've been a juggler for 14 years, its how I started poi

-----------------------------------



is nothing to do with me, I've said nothing like that. I've also got lots of juggling friends and it's how I started poi as well.



I have said that some jugglers have come across as being eliteist and excluding to some spinners, and I stand by that. But, like I say, it's certainly not all jugglers, and I'm sure that in most cases it's unintentional.



My feelings about the poi/spinning situation are summed up in the article, the conclusion of which is that I feel communication is the answer to the lingering difficulties that remain.



Communication includes getting the jugglers point of view, hence the posting on rec.juggling.



That posting was not simply a link the this HOP thread and my article, but a full on discussion in its own right.



My feelings are that it's been a worthwhile thread, with some positive and insightful comments from jugglers which will contribute to future misunderstandings on this subject.



Anyone who knows me knows that I have no desire to get at jugglers, juggling used to be my main skill and I still put in a lot of work on it.



It's always been a minority of jugglers who fueled the anti poi thing, and it's always been a minority of spinners who've been out of order with their actions at juggling clubs.



Seriously Glass, I really hope that you're not feeling offended by anything I've posted, I've gone out of my way to try to be non antagonistic with this.



Is there a chance that you've misunderstood one of the rec.juggling postings? I find that forum to be a little bewildering in it's structure and with it lacking HOPs user friendly 'quote' facility, it's difficult to see who's saying what.



Dave.







"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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brodieman
brodieman

old hand
Location: london
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1024
Posted:glass replied to a bad post made by me was nott quoteing you, dont worry mate twas my fault not urs


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:
glass replied to a bad post made by me was nott quoteing you, dont worry mate twas my fault not urs




Cheers brodieman smile

Sorry Glass, I misunderstood- I'd still be interested in knowing why you didn't like the post on rec.juggle though.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:i guess because it's likely to attract people who just want to be antagonistic for their own amusement.

i'd be interested to see how you worded the link, and any replies there.

Can anyone link a link back to the link that Dave linked? confused ubbangel


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Quotes himself because he'd like some answers to ignored question:
Quote:
how about some practical advice on what to do when spinners start crowding out others?

...if we accept that people (myself included) sometime need 'telling off' more
and that it's in a generally extremely informal and rules free environment
and that we don't generally want to make people feel unwelcome
then how do we do that?



"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:At Brixton last week i thought that spinners were really taking over the workshop so to speak, so my answer to you is what i posted previously on this thread, find a space and let people spin near/around you (after all it is essentially a juggling workshop), but assume they will not interfere with what you are doing. However, I guess if someone kept hitting me with their stick/poi/staff/whatever, i would ask them to move slightly one way or the other,as I don't need that much space to juggle so I wouldn't think i was being rude. Especially given the space that we have for the next three weeks. In short i would go for the (non-verbal) "i'll stand here and juggle, look how much space i'm using, you go around me, you require more space."

Having said that what if all the spitz spinners were forced to cram into the (lower) Brixton space, how would you ask a fellow spinner to mind out? (I know it's a hypothetical question).

P.S. The juggler who had a go at you has a problem with spacial awareness, not poi. She had a go at me for unicycling too close to her recently whilst she was practicing, I suppose she does have a point wink


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Yeah i suppose the answer is obvious really...

smile smile smile smile
smile ask smile
smile nicely smile
smile smile smile smile

She has a problem with spatial awareness?!? shall i tell her you said that? ubblol
i know that she's luffly really - and she swings clubs so she's a secret spinner herself biggrin


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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hexagonic
hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 18th Feb 2004
Total posts: 1687
Posted:No don't tell her I said that, frown She just likes to practice her stuff without people spinning, passing or unicycling etc. round her. She likes her space. And yes, she is lovely. Not sure if she's a secret spinner tho... ubbrollsmile

ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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