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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
  Posted: so before reacting consider this. what makes u do anything? lets look an one situation

Q. why do u get up in the mourning?
A. simple answer maybe because i have to go to work
Q. so why do u go to work?
A. to get money
Q. so why do u need money?
A. to buy stuff
Q. why do u need to buy stuff
A. to survive

everything that we do is done to satisfy our primary drives for survival being, food, warmth, shelter, love and support. our actions may not be immediately obvious as to falling into these categories but with a little analysis they do. lets take an example like sacrificing your life for another, initially it wouldnt appear to be the sort of behaviour that is conducive to ones survival. if you look at what makes someone make such a choice that it makes more sense, the movie john q is an excellent example of this where a fathers child cant get hosipital treatment that is required for his son to live so after trying every possible option the father takes hostages at the hospital until his son gets the transplant. i wont say anymore for ppl that havnt seen it but its a good example of where a value judgement has been made such that in the mind of the father the some must survive for him to continue to live and as such he will do anything.

all of our behaviours are learnt as children through positive and negative reinforcement, so do u actually do anything by your own "free will" or is everything just learned responses based on your primal drives? If you think that you are more than just a robot my question i swhy and what is it that you think that you can do that a robot can not?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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bubblishis


False Eyelash
Location: New York City

Total posts: 346
  Posted:Quote:


everything that we do is done to satisfy our primary drives for survival being, food, warmth, shelter, love and support. our actions may not be immediately obvious as to falling into these categories but with a little analysis they do.

all of our behaviours are learnt as children through positive and negative reinforcement, so do u actually do anything by your own "free will" or is everything just learned responses based on your primal drives? If you think that you are more than just a robot my question i swhy and what is it that you think that you can do that a robot can not?




Ai papi! The answer you are looking for is anarchy!!! Which, by the way, does NOT mean running red lights and looting the grocery store. According to anarchist philosophy we, in our heart of hearts, want to do the right thing all the time. What prevents us from doing this is CAPITALISM!! And all the other isms that come with it - particulary racism and sexism.

I recommend a book by Crimethink called Days of War, Nights of Love. If you can't find a copy PM me - I'd be happy to send you one.

That said....speak for yourself muchacho. Yes, we are products of our enviroment and it can be hard to break away from that. But there are a few who've managed. smile

Perhaps the question is not "is everything a learned response to your primal drive?". Instead: Do you know what your primal drives are? Are they choices you've made? And what does it take to control them?"



All the freaky people make the beauty of the world.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
  Posted:Firstly, your tone seems to imply that being 'just' a robot is in someway a bad thing.

I would argue that if it was established that we are 'just' robots, then it's nothing to get upset by, all the aspects of being human we value, such as insight, compassion, creativity etc will still stand.

Many people think that if our decisons are learned responces based on primal drives then it is not free will; usually because it implies that we will make exactly the same decisions when in the same circumstances.

I would argue that such consistent causal connection between circumstances and action is actually a vital part of 'free will'

For example, some philosophers have reached out to quantum physics to save the concept of free will. They say that random subatomic events in the brain can influence our behaviour, thus making it non deterministic.

To me that actually detracts from free will; it merely introduces an element of randomness into the equation.

An action born of free will is one that is completely determined by the mind state of the do-er- part of what it is to be a living, thinking, free individual is a consistency of behaviour that defines who that individual is.

That behaviour can be, and is, modified over time, but is still consistent with the things that have brought about those changes.

An individual who randomly manifests huge and inconsistent swings in behaviour (eg compassionate one minute, a murderer the next) is not manifesting free will, but madness.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
  Posted:I get up in the morning because I have things that I both need and want to do. Some things I do because I want to do them (like working in the hospital, cooking good food for my student co-op, etc.). Some things I do because I need to do them in order to do the things I want to do (like going to the hospital at 4:45 AM, or doing my laundry, or paying my taxes, or cleaning my room).

But I am not one of those people who lives just to stay alive. I am a person who loves life. I wake up most days excited about the interesting and fun experiences that the day will bring.

Of course there are activities of daily living that we all have to do (bathing, grooming, eating, etc.) in order to stay alive. But I get impatient with these things so that I can do what I love to do.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
  Posted:Quote:
According to anarchist philosophy we, in our heart of hearts, want to do the right thing all the time. What prevents us from doing this is CAPITALISM!! And all the other isms that come with it - particulary racism and sexism.



and what is right and wrong? these are human concepts that we are taught by society so that we can live together without killing each other (to much).

Quote:
Yes, we are products of our enviroment and it can be hard to break away from that. But there are a few who've managed.



i agree that it is possible to recognise the learnt behaviours that we devolope as children and to be able to control them. and i agree that it is possible to change some of your primal drives such as the need for shelter or money to buy food but i would suggest that doing such things would lead to negative emotions such as remorse,sadness, hunger and guilt which is natures way of encouraging you to survive. in the same way that when a artificial neural network is trained when u do something that is bad for your survival you feel bad.

Quote:
Instead: Do you know what your primal drives are? Are they choices you've made? And what does it take to control them?"



if u stop eating eventually u will die
if u live without shelter eventually u will become used to it but you will age much faster without all the creature comforts
if u are without love u will feel lonely
if u are without the support of others u will feel alone

i totally agree that u can control them however i cant see how that can lead to a long and happy life

Quote:
Firstly, your tone seems to imply that being 'just' a robot is in someway a bad thing.



thats not my intension as a general rule if i read something and i think there might be an implyed tone i try to ignore it as the net is just so lacking for communicating emotions. i personally think that evolution dictates that human need to step it up to a new level which i believe will come from a synergy with machines but thats another story

Quote:
I would argue that if it was established that we are 'just' robots, then it's nothing to get upset by, all the aspects of being human we value, such as insight, compassion, creativity etc will still stand.



i totally agree

Quote:
An action born of free will is one that is completely determined by the mind state of the do-er- part of what it is to be a living, thinking, free individual is a consistency of behaviour that defines who that individual is.



isnt the state of mind of the do-er determined by the events past and present and the genetic makeup of the do-er?

Quote:
I get up in the morning because I have things that I both need and want to do.



why do u need or want to do anything?


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 3989
  Posted:I think it may havebeen quicker, Benjamen, to just ask the BIG question...



WHY?


Over all, I might be a robot, but as long as I've been programmed to enjoy life, then I'm better off anyway.

If you want to look at primal drives, look at suicide, or anorexia, or skydivers...Sure, it may be able to be construed downa long line of logic as eventually being an attempt to fulfil one of our primal drives, but does that matter to the skydiver?

I think the wind blasting through their hair and the sensory overlaod of speed and beauty and danger are likely to be a bit more foremost in their mind.

so what if it's a robot with a parachute strapped to it's back, as long as it's happy, then the world is a slightly better place...

In my opinion, of course.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
  Posted:Robots are made of metal and other such nonsence... Me? I am a consumer! Much more dangerous than a robot tongue

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
  Posted:Quote:
why do u need or want to do anything?




Interesting question, so I'll answer this philosophical point as I usually do: by bring up a clinical example of a disease. In this case: schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is characterized by two types of symptoms, the so-called "positive" symptoms and the so-called "negative" symptoms. The positive symptoms include such things as psychosis, hallucinations, delusions, etc.

The negative symptoms include social withdrawal and an avolitional syndrome. In its most extreme state, this can come down to the level of catatonia, where the patient simply sits there and stares at the wall all day. This is a disease state.

It is part of being a healthy human being, both neurologically and psychiatrically, that we have desires, drives, and goals, even if the goal is as simple as "make lunch," or "open the window." Part of my humanity is my desire to live my life. Different people do this with different levels of enthusiasm and zest. Many people are quite happy to sit and stare at the TV, but very few people are content to sit in a chair and stare at the wall.

In the most basic sense, the brain exists to manage the higher functions necessary to care for the body. The automatic processes (like the liver's biochemical alchemy, or the peripheral nervous system's control of blood pressure) are important and must be functioning at all times, but the higher functions are necessary in order to get food, to take care of hygeine, and such. We are genetically programmed to take care of ourselves and it is a state of disease when we cannot.



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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