Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Performance Moves vs. Techy-moves

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Originally I was going to call this thread "Pointless Moves" but this isn't accurate as I guess learning any move improves your dexterity and opens up new possibilities.

But...
This is just a list of moves that I think (and I don't think I'm alone) have no appeal to non-spinning on-lookers.
This came about after I'd spent a while learning various moves, showed them to my mum or some other non-spinner only for them to go "It doens't look any different" mad smile or even worse "What? What are you doing different?"

Ultimately, as Poi and Staff are a "performance art" (or so the rumours go) are these worth learning? Half the time they don't feel nice or flow...

Some of the ones I've found this to be the case with are:

# 7 beat (upwards) Weaves - Especially with fire/lights i.e. in the dark when you can't see your arms

# Fish-tails - Don't look anything special to non-spinners

# Hyperloops & Airwraps - I (personally) think they are often go un-noticed by the casual observer and are a bit of a catch 22. If they're done perfectly they don't really show up, if done messily they look like a recovered tangle umm

Anyone got any others or want to shoot me down for damning their favourite move? smile


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:hummmm,

you can perform very efectively with totally non techie moves (aka NYC's "do the weave fast") untill someone comes along who can perform techie moves. By this I dont mean just accompishing the moves, but performing them, making them accessable for the auidence, realising how to present and flow between techie moves. To add to the airwrap debate if you show your audence the change, if you exagerate the circles and chages in size or direction, and if you do it clean, the auidence dosnt even have to know what your doing, they just follow the pretty lights.

with standard moves you can do a lot, but technical ability expands you repitoir, giving you more dynamics to play with, shurly a good thing in a performance enviroment?

For me its all about circles and body shapes, what does it look like? for this reason i think normall 5 beat is pretty useless, but 'split' 5 (with one hand spinning at the elbow/shoulder) can be really effective. A standard parrelel extension gooks great, but if you add ww to it it becomes continious, and the whole body position begins to change.

Also, there is such a thing as tech performance, where the whole point is the difficulty (percived or otherwise) of the tricks. A good example is the 'big finnish' in street/circus routeens, where the performer has worked up his tricklist methodically untill it reaches an unbelievable peak (see the walking globe man, pole on the chin, ball bouncing on the poll, juggling 5 balls and walking on a globe, not bad) of course to pull this kind of performance off you really have to be shat hot.

In poi, one of the best looking tricks is also one of the hardest, yes, Im talking about isolations. thease twist peaples heads up something rotten, they can be added to anything non tech so all that range is still there but they remain a real brain bender. especially if you slip a couple of airwraps in to prove they are indeed flexible.

so in conclusion, i dont think there really is a distinction between techy and performance moves, its just a distinction between performing and playing, anything can look good presented right.

T wave


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I am not responding to PPP because of the aggressive nature of her post and because of the extracting what she chose to twist things around. I really do not appreciate it and will be moving past it, except to say that my mind is not in every cell of my body and I did not make my statements on that assumption.

Coleman, all audiences *are* different. They come with difference experiences and expectations. Where I live, and in fact at other things I have seen, the wraps are percieved as tangles. Just sharing experience. I am glad that for you they work.

Rob, I did distinctly include them being placed in a routine here and there as well as in a row. I expressed that in either situation it does not work. I know I am doing them fine, the people I perform for don't enjoy them.

The Four in a Row was a completely fair and valid statement which was based on someone earlier in the thread stating that if you do many in a row that people eventually get the idea that you are doing it on purpose. My statement relating to this was yes they do get the idea but that they will also lose the audience in that time.

I think it is funny that I am getting flamed for having the opinion that airwraps and hyperloops don't work. We were asked for opinions, I gave mine and I stand by it.

I recall someone saying that they felt throws didn't work. I believe they do, but I didn't flame him/her for it.

Spiralx, no one is saying don't do a move if it adds to the flow. It is more of a "don't expect a resounding reaction for it" type thing. No where has anyone said that things must always be tech or must always be basic or "absolutely don't do this". It is up to the spinner completely. The audience will react to whatever moves them.
Again, it is up to each performer.

I think I will now return to my rule of not posting in these areas and leave you all to it.
I want to say this is also why I don't submit videos or spin for other spinners. Too much criticism and emphasis on what everyone feels should be done instead of appreciation for how it is presented. I love what I do and am very passionate about performing and I don't appreciate being asked for an OPINION and then ripped apart for expressing it (this is not to all those who just expressed a differing opinion, I completely respect that you have different experiences with different audiences and a *very* different style of spinning from me, which is where your opinion comes from).

beerchug ~P


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Quote:
Spiralx, no one is saying don't do a move if it adds to the flow. It is more of a "don't expect a resounding reaction for it" type thing. No where has anyone said that things must always be tech or must always be basic or "absolutely don't do this". It is up to the spinner completely. The audience will react to whatever moves them.
Again, it is up to each performer.


Heh that was my point... technical moves can open up new movements rather than having any wow-factor in themselves. I pretty much agree with everything you've said in principle, if not in the details wink

Quote:
I think I will now return to my rule of not posting in these areas and leave you all to it.
I want to say this is also why I don't submit videos or spin for other spinners. Too much criticism and emphasis on what everyone feels should be done instead of appreciation for how it is presented. I love what I do and am very passionate about performing and I don't appreciate being asked for an OPINION and then ripped apart for expressing it (this is not to all those who just expressed a differing opinion, I completely respect that you have different experiences with different audiences and a *very* different style of spinning from me, which is where your opinion comes from).


Sorry you felt that way frown


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey pele. cheers for your reply smile

"We were asked for opinions, I gave mine and I stand by it."

i think the reason you got 'flamed' (and all that really means in this case is 'i got a lot of direct replies to my post') is because the statements you made were exactly that - statements.

more often than not, rather than say 'i think...' you said 'this is how it is...'
if you percieved any aggression in the replies you got i think it may have stemmed from the fact that your posts were a little dismissive and set out your opinions as fact.

please realise i am fully appreciative (and very respectful) of the fact that you are a professional performer and know many, many other industry professionals too - i always ensure i read your opinions on these subjects because of this.

in part, this vast experience is why i asked for some comments on your spinning technique (small circle - i have heard a lot about what you think on the subjects of safety and performance but due to your 'rule', rarely see you around this forum when you surely must have a lot to share frown

ah well.


back on topic:

the big difference between intercontinental audiences thing is very bizarre i think.
it made me wonder how a circus can manage to tour the whole world with the same show.
maybe a circus like that would be better recieved in the us but less well in europe or vice versa?
has anyone performed extensively in both the usa and europe that can comment on this discontinuity...?

and finally (not directed at pele, just to clarify the comments we have already made):
"The Four in a Row was a completely fair and valid statement which was based on someone earlier in the thread stating that if you do many in a row that people eventually get the idea that you are doing it on purpose. My statement relating to this was yes they do get the idea but that they will also lose the audience in that time."

i still don't quite understand why you would lose the audience here confused
pele's original argument was that "Doing them 5 times in a routine looks like you ran out of stuff to do" and mine and rob's point was that there is so much variety available that you could likely do a large portion of a routine with airwraps (tangles) alone and not repeat a move once.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:Pele, this is a flame, you wuss.

you cant expect to hold forth so definatly and not get peaple (specially peaple who are in love with airwraps) comming back and expressing why they think your wrong, i mean, you spent large portions of your posts saying that other peaples opinions were wrong. i.e. 4 in a row debate.

for someone with such experance to say "Im not going to contribute, cos peaple dont like me and say nasty things" is pathetic.

personally I think a lot of the stuff you said makes sence, I agree about performance being much more than a set of moves, and you hint a a deeper knowlege of performing than you have ever shared, so share it, dont scare it!

common love, we're all friends here, no need to sulk.

T hug

(cor, what a nice flame ubblol)


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Everyone pois for different reasons.
Everyone performs for different reasons.

I think that many people in this thread are posting their opinion as fact. And not only that, but taking their own personal experiences as uncontrovertable supporting data.

Again, we've got huge Egos here... most of whom don't understand the word Ego and think it's an insult because it is often used as such. There is Ego in EVERYTHING we do... especially career. On the other hand, any statement that starts with "The goal must be..." is opinion and is, in a way, offensive. I don't think anyone should dictate what MY goal for poi is, despite the fact that they practice more than me or take it more serious than me.

I'm sad to see people using their perspective as the only perspective and their opinions as the only option.



Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:So then. I've been thinking a lot about this post and have apparently offended some happy hopsters. In particular I have 'pissed off' Pele and for that I am truely sorry. Sorry that my opinions conflict with yours and sorry that you felt 'flamed'.

Pele: The feeling I got from your post was one of actively discouraging poiple from pushing their technical limits although it appears from a later post that this was not your intention. It would be a shame to keep to your 'rule', your's is the most interesting thread i've read in ages, and I like a bit of 'healthy debate'. You said in your PM to me that I put my own definitions into your words. I certainly don't feel that I created my own contexts but I Understand that your intended meaning may not have been what I interpreted it as. Likewise when you read my thread. As for hyperloops, I'm with Coleman. I admit that my tone was aggresive but then so is the title of this thread. As for deleting my thread... if you feel that strongly about it then do so, needless to say I think that to be entirely unnecessary.

I don't consider myself a 'professional performer', in fact I entirely dislike taking money for any 'performance' I do. I prefer not to perform on a stage but in the crowd. I like not to draw any attention to my poi in any way, I rarely spin fire any more and only use lights on my poi when there is a risk of other people walking into them.

This may sound to you like I don't like to perform but you would be entirely wrong. I take pleasure in the fact that many people will miss me spinning becuase they are transfixed upon the twirling lights of everyone else. It means that the people who do get to see me are the ones who actually Watch. This kinda filters out all the audiences that you are discussing in this post, I prefer quality to quantity.

So the people who get to see me spin are relatively small and select. They have not paid a penny to see me so I do not 'owe them anything'. I spin entirely for myself as I have found this to produce by far the best performances. As soon as I think 'what do They wanna see next' I completely lose my flow.

As for the thread... For me there is no difference between 'Performance Moves' and 'Techy Moves'. I see them as the Emotion and the Intellect of the performance. One without the other will not produce a great performance, but a balance of the two will produce Fine results.

I believe there to be at least as many 'Hyperloop' patterns as Every other poi pattern we know! I am by no means an expert at hyperloops, I am only just begining to grasp how they work but you should see Coleman et al pulling off Hyperloop patterns like the ones described above. I find it absurd that anyone can consider this 'Techy' and completely ignore some phenomenal poi.

I just think it would be a shame if poiple read this thread and get into a mindset of 'Do I wanna be a performer or a techy robot'. Why not Mesh the two togerther into a spherculoid ubbtickled

m






Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I don't understand all this...
I mean there are a loit of techy moves out there that can be done beautiflly.. like the 7bt weave.. it has a flow.. but its a different flow... a lot of people aren't comfortable with it but it can be done nicely.. and yes people can notice.. and say "wow that's didfferent.. but honestly.. its an extra rotation... for the audience just another circle...

offset weaves.. not an offest 2 bt weave.. but 5 and 7 beats weaves offset.. and even offsettting an already offset weave.. getting wierd combinations like the crossovers some SA kidz think they invented.. crowds like it because it breaks up the monotany(sp?)... one person said it looked like I was taunitng people.. its the same reason they love wraps.. because its broken and random yet continuous and flowy..

sam,e reason they love airwraps... its something that appears to defy logic (even though it makes perfect sense)...

the crowd digs showmanship.. speed control, flow, appearance..
poi people dig technical sides... creativeness, difficulty, etc..

I say learn it all... test yourlimits... I always use my showy stuff until I meet a poi person then I get all techy...*shrugs* to each their own..

now the hyperloop discussion has me kinda confused..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:Pele i'm sorry you feel this way about what you percieve to be unnecessary criticism but in my opinion is necessary discussion. I find it fascinating to read your opinions on technical AND performance spinning.(and yes i know we've been holding similarly opposite points of view on this subject for quite some time now.... wink)

but please stick around and hold your corner on this one or the thread will become poi-ntless.

so.

two things:
1 remaining on subtopic.
one not.

the not remaining on subtopic but back to the original point of the thread:
with a stick, i find the most wonderment i provoke is doing either contact, acrobatics, or *really* high throws.(haha, i missed the comma between contact and acrobatics first off... but now i can do cartwheels with the staff on my body maybe i should have left it out anyway! ubbangel) and once again the contact is the most technical and yet produces the most eek
however there are a few ultratech moves that people just don't see... fishtails(got a huge round of applause on the renegade stage in front of 150 jugglers, none doing double fishtails in front of a 'regular' audience) being the most obvious example.

decided to leave the other point to a pm... so over and out.
cheers
R biggrin



Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:I totally agree with blue there, tech moves for staff are a must for performance, i think standard staff looks really booring but contact never fails to get a "look at that crazy guy, lets watch to see if he burns himself.... omg! how did he do that!"

t wave


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Quote:
I totally agree with blue there, tech moves for staff are a must for performance, i think standard staff looks really booring but contact never fails to get a "look at that crazy guy, lets watch to see if he burns himself.... omg! how did he do that!"



Two words to dispute that.

Robert Heart.

If there was no demand, there would be no supply.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:um.
no.

robert heart is pretty technical. just cause we don't approve of his attitude or like his style doesn't mean he isn't pretty good.

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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tenticle
tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:
Member Since: 13th Aug 2002
Total posts: 275
Posted:err... that 4 hyperloops in a row before they realize comment was mine... i should probably have added that once they have noticed, it's all they want to see for a bit. one guy (non spinner) even said 'wow, it makes like, a little hyperloop inside!'
But then there have been 'Are you doing that deliberatly? Show-off.' type comments, so you don't win em all.

--Ben


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Cody
Cody

That guy from Reno
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2003
Total posts: 556
Posted:Boy I could write all day on this thread. But I'll keep it quick. smile In juggling there is the same problem. A clown can juggle 2 balls and an apple and eat the apple. And Jason Garfield can do a 12 ball falsh. Who do you think the crowd will like best? The clown always wins and Jason is a very grumpy man. frown But, in contrast, Jason has his own show lets say on a cruse line, and the clown is stuck doing birthday parties.

And man I gotta defend fire smile The only reason I do poi is for the fire. How I perform is with LOTS of fire. It's double dipping if you will. One, the Crowd loves it, two it lights me up so you can see the techincal things I'm doing. Tie yourself in a knot with light sticks in the dark and no one knows. Do it lit up glowing red, then the big fire and the tech come together. Don't get me wrong, I don't do fire just for the crowd, I do it for me. It's my meditation, it's cleansing, it's like home and warm apple pie. I spin fire all by myself sometimes (not safe I know), but sharing my intimate relationship with fire with a crowd and encourage them to do the impossible in their own lives is fun too.

P.S. I think Robert Heart should put a wistle in his mouth while he performs. biggrin (well some of you will get it)


Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada

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spherespinner
spherespinner

member
Location: Melbourne...
Member Since: 18th Nov 2003
Total posts: 38
Posted:Och... Rob!!! I am offended! No-one doing any techy moves in the South Island huh.... now I know my airwraps, hyperloops and isolations can be sketchy but ... really, tut tut spank

Didn't have enough time to read through all the replies too carefully so sorry if I don't make sense.. but I have found doing airwraps quite impressive to the audience.. and if they don't respond I often say... hey look at this.. I'm doing it on purpose !! ubbloco

Isolations always get a good reult. And I always find my throwing of staves get a rather ooohhhed response. But.... ya know what... mostly for audience.. speed seems to be the one. I did a small show at a party the other night... asked my flatmate what he liked the most he said.. "the one where u spin one staff above the head and the other in front".. I said "oh, when I am going quite fast" he said .. "yeah". I asked my mum and dad when they watched me... mum said "when u do single staff behind the back and around the front repetitively" I said "you mean when I am going really fast?" she said "...yeah" It amazes me how much general laymen like speed.... maybe I don't need to learn any other tricks.... wink

wave Jo



smile
Start chasing dreams.... one day u may catch them..

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:[side note: please insert the phrase 'In my opinion' as you see fit, I assumed people did this but evidently not wink]

You're damn right about most audiences liking the speed of a set.

But I get by far the the best results when I spin poi at such a rediculously slooooooowwwwwww speeeeeeeed that they should be falling from their orbits, people are like eek"What the F..." eek It Also allows me to spin 'Techy' moves that normal people can actually follow.

I didn't ever think of 'Isolations' as 'moves' until Drew told me I was doing them. I still don't consider them moves. They are a completely separate movement which I superimposed upon every other pattern. They allow far greater control of the timing of the poi and by combining them with Long Arms you can keep time to super slow beats. Alternatively you can use them to do super quick time. I consider the ability to isolate essential for keeping precise time to music, very useful in performance, and allows for greater 'Dynamic Range' for your set.

Poiple think of all this 'Plane Breaking' (or as I prefer to call it 'Plane Tweeking') as useless Techy stuff ubblol I reckon This kinda thing will be completely Fundamental umongst poistas in a few years.

I'm interested to hear what poiple mean when they say 'Techy'. I mean, there must have been a time when no one had ever done a 5 beat weave before. The friends of the first person ever to try it may have been like 'Oh that's Soooo Techy, you'll never be able to work it cleanly into a set'. Now a 5 Beat Weave is Fundamental. Likewise nowadays with a 5 Beat Butterfly Weave (5-TTN with turns). For me this is fundamental and looks completely bonkers, I still find it a bit risky in performance but then who cares, it looks phenomenal, especially when you over exaggerate the bendy arm movements. A certain 'crowd pleaser', even if they are sat more than 10 feet away.

I guess that developing hybrid poi notation is 'Techy'. But it's no different from what happened years ago in juggling, and the benefits were enormous for everyone, not just the Techys that developed it. Just think of the benefits to choreography.

I certainly don't think that a set must have high tech moves to be fabulous. Equally a super tech performance can look really bad, it's just all about the balance of the Emotion and the Intellect.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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audax
audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:[EDIT] OMG, this was written after Poipoipoi,s post on page one, with all the quotes from Pele's. This is like 20 posts late in the thread. Please bear in mind I was a lttle riled at waht I percieved to be an insult or 2 to Pele. Please look further down the thread for my more considered response [EDIT}



In defense of Pele and all of like opinions:

Firstly we all need to see the difference between twirling for others as a style or "your way" and that of performing. Of course performing is for others, that's what you're paid for.

Telling us all what people have said of her performance is not ego. She's relating to us that less-tech moves get awesome responses. not being keen to twirl in front ofpeople all the time is more to do with knockers taking away from your buzz from spinning. You just don't need knockers telling you that your spinning needs something. For the record, "flow" is down to movement memory, and is part of your phychological construct of your body and the space it's in, than a mind outside your body. It's a very real neurobiological process that we develop by twirling.

Making a show interesting to the audience does at all make it uninteresting to the performer. Saying that this meens it's not interesting to yourself is missing the point of pro shows. It's for money. Sounds mercenary but I'd rather twirl for a living than get dusty every day in the factory. A bad day twirling is better than a good day at work!

Plenty of people miss things in shows. Anyone can argue against a generalisation. In a crowd, some may have ADD, soem may just be hard to excite, some may act too cool for school, some may not watch because of stereotypes about "arty types", babies will fall asleep of their own accord, polynesians may be offended at percieved abuse of their culture and some people may simply have poor eyesight but still love what they can see, especially the bold movements instead of flatfoot boffining. There are so many reasons why a load of people will not catch just what it is that you do with your wrists. you can't watch every body part in slo-mo at once. The vast majority of people have never seen fire twirling in real life. Do a survey at the supermarket checkout or do a doorknock and ask how many poi moves they could name. Sounds humiliting to me. ubbidea

Super Techy moves, DO bore some people. Categorically denying this may be ignorance, but it may be something else. Could it be that some HOP members are simply defending a more techy style by defending against any percieved attack, by retaliating with rhetoric? Good grief!

I can tell you that a performance set of 5BT stuff with only hyperloops, releases and UTL would probably get a milder response from an avarage civilian crowd than simple buzzsaws wraps and speed work, let alone 1 fire breathe. That's in my experience anyway. Maybe if the only people who see you twirl are twirlers themselves (or groupies) then you'd get a better response, but that's the point of the discussion, isn't it?

Let's give Pele the credit she's due for her contribution to twirling worldwide. She's been a pro for years, been a fair and supportive moderator to many twirlers and her articles have likely been the greatest contribution by 1 person to fire safety worldwide. Not bad eh?

Thank you all for your responses but please be aware of how they impact on a person. peace

EDITED_BY: audax (1074767417)


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:well,

"flatfooted boffining" is not what we are talking about, I agreethat someone standing still doing tech stuff is booring, unless its coleman, where the body dont matter and its al about the poi, but cole id beutifull, not impressive.

The point many peaple are making here is that tech donst have to be flatfooted, it can be just as dynamic as everything else, its only another way of manipulating poi, and all ways are valid in performance. To just do 5bt with airwraps would be booring, but if you can do that you can also do everything else, and what performer is going to ignore most of thier reptoir?

performance is about dynamics, narrative and spectical, tech is about the movements you make. They are two diffrent things, that are not mutually exclusive, but but just diffrent aspects of the spinning experance. A tech 'move' isntantly becomes a perfomance move as soon as you perform it. how you present that to make it intresting is up to you, I dont think there are any moves that cant be aprechaited by a layman with the right conditions. Obviously in some situations subtle bodymovements will get lost, but in others they wont. To ignore techy stuff (especially if its solid enough to perform) because you think its 'boring' just shows a lack of imagination.

"Do a survey at the supermarket checkout or do a doorknock and ask how many poi moves they could name. Sounds humiliting to me."

I dont think this has any bearing on the debate, go to the checkout and ask peaple if they know what poi are and most will draw a blank. whats your point? peaple wouldent do tech moves if it didnt make the poi do something different.

I think there is a littel defensiveness of tech stuff going on, but its quite justified, because we put a lot of hours into finding diffrent things to do with poi, and for someone else to say "no point, looks terrible for performance" when we know that how it looks is down to presentation, not the move. a 3 beat weave can look [censored] if you do it facing away from the auidence.

finnally "Thank you all for your responses but please be aware of how they impact on a person."

this is a debate, not a slagging match, something that should be perfectly obviouse. we are not taking it personally, we are just giveing very sutable counter arguments. This isnt about feelings, its about perfomance verses tech. we cannot help it if out counter arguments are seen as an attack by the peaple to whom thier directed, because we must make thoes arguments. If its taken personally well im sorry, but its not the intended point, we simply want to add to an intresting discussion in which we all have some experance. Nobody is Dissin Pele, well, apart from calling her a wuss wink

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
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Joe Marshall
newbie
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 30th Jul 2003
Total posts: 33
Posted:I used to think exactly this way about really difficult moves in both juggling and poi, that they were just for nerds, because they always looked rubbish and were only interesting to people in the know.

But then I was with a bunch of people at Glastonbury and I saw Jay Gilligan doing juggling and everyone was totally loving it. He was doing stupid stuff with ten million balls and bizarre spins and loads of stuff that I know is incredibly difficult and the non-knowing audience thought it looked amazing and totally more interesting than any juggling they'd seen before.

I think the difference between that and your average performer doing difficult stuff is that he was incredibly stylish and had everything really down well. I think a lot of technical performers sacrifice flow for discrete incredibly difficult moves. Personally I think for performance flowing movements should be valued way above technical tricks, but if you can do both, then you look even better.

I've been doing a little bit of juggling recently and with 3 balls I've always been able to just kind of relax and do lots of different things without thinking, but 4 balls has always seemed a bit disjointed. But now I've learnt 5 balls and I've suddenly discovered that I can now do a similar thing with 4 balls, without having to really think hard about exactly what 'trick' or 'move' I'm going to do. Her what lives with me actually asked me to do some 4 ball juggling the other day, whereas before, only 3 ball stuff was at all interesting to watch.

Joe


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Quote:
I think the difference between that and your average performer doing difficult stuff is that he was incredibly stylish and had everything really down well. I think a lot of technical performers sacrifice flow for discrete incredibly difficult moves. Personally I think for performance flowing movements should be valued way above technical tricks, but if you can do both, then you look even better.


Yeah, that's what I don't like about some people I've seen around. There are a variety of technical moves I can do but don't simply because they don't fit in well with what I do... heh, I've probably got a lot worse at them wink


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Pali
Pali

journeyman
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
Member Since: 27th Jan 2003
Total posts: 84
Posted:I poi because it makes me feel free. It takes me to a place that nothing else ever has, and the more moves I learn (techy or not), the more I can flow.

When I perform, I let the music take me where it wants to go. If this means slow pendulums and swinging at the sides, cool! If it means butterfly weaves and wraps, cool!

So I guess my point is complexity doesn't equal quality, but knowing a variety of moves makes the experience more fun and lets you express more through your movements.

Gosh, I ubblove Poi!


Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Quote:
Personally I think for performance flowing movements should be valued way above technical tricks, but if you can do both, then you look even better.




At Last, someone who has hit the nail on the head beerchug

If you can do both they it's got to be better??? Or am I completely insane. ubbloco

[Probably, but I still cling on the the last threads of reality wink]


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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MillenniuM
MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck

Member Since: 10th Jul 2003
Total posts: 595
Posted:I doesn't *HAVE* to be better if you can do both, because there's something unique and cool about simplistic nature of non-tech moves. Sometimes it's more visually appealing to see smooth, slow, non-techy movements. I find that if people watch technical spinning, they have to concentrate harder than watching non-tech spinning. Sometimes you need a simple concept that's easy to grasp to fully see the beauty in it, and an audience needs non-tech to break up the "ahhhhh what's going on" factor.

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Really nicely put MilleniuM *doffs cap* My thoughts exactly



Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Millenium: I agree that simple patterns can be extremely elagant,

Quote:
Sometimes it's more visually appealing to see smooth, slow, non-techy movements.



...and sometimes it's more visually appealing to see smooth, slow, techy movements.

Quote:
and an audience needs non-tech to break up the "ahhhhh what's going on" factor.



Yep, just as they need tech movements to add a little spice.

It's all about the balance.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:I agree, the crowd just need to be able to watch without concentrating and become lost in the fire. Since I got a video phone and can record myself I realise that no matter what weaves I move in and out of it's always (almost) a perfect circle cuz I keep my wrists joined all through the 3/5 beat be it back or forwd high or hugging the ground. And now I realise that while my mate is real techy and shifts constantly from move to move why some folks prefer my style cuz it's easy on the eye. Mix it with a bit of madness in the middle and all is good! wink

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:humm, as for the "ahh whats going on factor"

dosnt really apply, cos teh aidence dosnt really know whats going on with simple moves either, its all about patterns of light and body postures for them, so for example if your doing flowers with airwraps the auidence sees a big circle with smaller circles around the edge and then an even smaller circle in the middle, they dont kneed to know, or ever have to wonder how you did it, its just a beutifull pattern. Likewise with wraps, one wrap will change the direction but a series of high speed wraps makes an amazing combination of diffrent directions and creats the illusion of the poi swapping, as well as the percived danger of bouncing burning things off your body, peaple love this stuff.

I dont know what your idea of tech moves lookes like, a tech move is not deefined as 'something that makes essentialy the same circles in a more difficult way', its defined as 'a difficult movement with poi'. Admittedly there are tech moves that fall into this catogory, but thats actually the exeption rather than the rule. I agree with poipoipoi in that if done smooth and clean the audence shouldent really be able to tell whats difficult and whats not, it should all look natural and easy and pretty. Untill you can do all your moves with that fluidity yes its gonna look a bit stilted compared to the normall stuff, but if youve got it down it should be able to flow just as well.

its already been agreed that performance is about dynamics, and the addition of other harder moves simply increases thoes dynamics, which cannot be bad for performance.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
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MillenniuM
MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck

Member Since: 10th Jul 2003
Total posts: 595
Posted:I think we're all in agreement here, but don't actually realize it ubblol

I completely agree with everything you've said Nx and Poix3... when I'm spinning for audiences it usually consists of both spinners and non spinners alike, and even if it was all non spinners watching, I'd still throw in some techy stuff, because you're right: You need spice. The audience will frankly get bored if they know what you're doing the entire time, you need them to feel an array of emotions, and confusion/amazement are necessary.

Quote:
...and sometimes it's more visually appealing to see smooth, slow, techy movements.



Agreed. In my opinion, flowers are the most beautiful poi move I've seen, and they're quite techy. They are also the most fun for me smile


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audax
audax

freelance bum
Location: Upstairs
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 286
Posted:Ah, I feel all warm and fuzzy at all this agreement.

On the whole, it's whoever is watching that determines the reaction you'd get. It could be anyone from martians to the most experienced poi jedis. Like everything, it's all in context.
Also there are different circumstances too. Showing off to friends can be simply funny, but to strangers it's outright tacky. Busking or gigging should be about experessing yourself in a way the audience can get into. In the same vein as some have said, in your own style basic or not and with flow. If you've got complicated moves down, then do them, but in the context of showmanship, it's good to let the audience know that you may burn to death in the attempt (lie!) There's a conundrum too with making moves look really easy, which can make the audience believe it is, and therefore nowt special. But that's for some people.

There is also teaching, which of course you are deliberately trying to make it easy as for a person to copy directly. This is vaguely related to perf. vs. tech. cause it's easier to teach a basic move as for tech, you need to have basics down. People learn in different ways too, and the best teachers can adapt the teaching to the student. I find this one of the most satisfying aspects of twirling. Unless it's new years and people are being rude to me and hogging my gear spank



I can do some reasonably techy things, though I've yet to get into airwraps yet, and I can fountain fast as you like, but I'm also a cheeky bastard so when I busk i like to throw in some clowny stuff like gratuitous bum wraps or a near-miss in the nads just to get a laugh. I find that it's worth a couple of bucks at least to include. Mind you, tits and arse always wins.
There's nothing wrong with editing your style for a purpose, yet a lot of folks seem to beleive in twirling for their own enjoyment only, which I think is awesome. As a poier, watching someone in the zone has to be one of the most joyful things I can do.

Now that there's peace, I might go and start some trouble in social


UYI wink OLDSKOOL

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Quote:
I think we're all in agreement here, but don't actually realize it



Agreed ubbtickled

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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