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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:anyone read this?

My Year Of Meat by ruth l. ozeki


didn't really tell me anything new but was graphic enough to put me off beef (well US-produced beef) for ever and ever.

so am now reverting to 'nearlyvegetarian'

not quite but very rarely and then only meat i know the origins of and am vaguely ok about.

i.e. cetified organic.

still down to about once every two weeks.

anyway.

back to (own) topic

read the book.

and be slightly scared.

eekR


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:im not a vegetarian. i honestly like meat too much. (medium rare ey fillet with pepper sause, salad and chips.....*drool*)

but what i hate is vegetarians who make a HUGE deal about it! like they are only doing it to be 'cool' or something. i remember a girl at skool making a HUGE scene just to find out whether a packet of jellies had gelatine in them. ok, if she doesnt want to eat geletine then thats fine by me, but creating a scene about it! i didnt like that at all! and the funny thing was that there was another vegetatian beside her who quietly picked up the packet to look at the ingredients and didnt make a fuss at all!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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gita
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

gita

.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
Location: brizvegas, Australia

Total posts: 3776
Posted:i remember a girl at skool making a HUGE scene just to find out whether a packet of jellies had gelatine in them

some ppl just like to make a scene! most vegetarians & vegans i know try to be subtle about it! i am vegetarian (tried vegan for a while...but craved cheese - & i'm just not that inventive in the kitchen!). i don't lecture ppl on being vegetarian - even when i just mention that i am vego, they usually end up asking me why. which really pisses me off!! cos when i get asked, there is usually a tone in the voice that suggests 'so let's see the weak little vego squirm her way out of this one with some stupid hippy argument about how animals have feelings!'. mad
what makes it worse is that i do have hippy tendancies (the clothes, the attitudes about life, going to folk festivals, etc.) so they probably think i've smoked too much pot to know what the hell i'm talking about. mad mad what they don't know is that i actually have a couple of degrees under my belt (OMG an educated hippy! how did that happen!? eek ), and they don't seem to respect my choices about what i do and don't eat.

anyways...i think this debate is similar to religious debate! ppl should make their own choices and be happy with it. don't worry about what other ppl think - and above all don't try and bring them into your line of thinking/beliefs/eating habits!

so...ahem...that's my rant for today!! except for this - i think all restaurants should have at least 2 vegetarian (if not vegan) options on their menu! and that does not include salad and chips!! we vegos like to eat out with our meat eating friends occasionally!!!!

peace



do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
i don't lecture ppl on being vegetarian - even when i just mention that i am vego, they usually end up asking me why. which really pisses me off!! cos when i get asked, there is usually a tone in the voice that suggests 'so let's see the weak little vego squirm her way out of this one with some stupid hippy argument about how animals have feelings!'.





My usual answer is "I became a vegetarian on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab."



That normally stops them in their tracks. ubblol


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Quote:




Vegetarianism requires a high level of sophistication and education about proper nutrition so that it is possible to get adequate intake of all the vitamins, minerals, and nutrients required in a diet.


and
Quote:


Being a vegetarian requires some creativity and ingenuity. It means that you can't just cook a slab of meat and call it dinner. It means that you need to learn to combine ingredients and make good use of spices and flavors. It also means that you have to know about good non-meat sources of Vitamin B-12.




I disagree that going vegetarian requires a high level of sophistication and education about nutrition; I think this is one of the arguments that can really put people off vegetarianism.

I do appreciate what you say about many people lacking knowledge about food and nutrition but, whilst accepting that if they became veggie they would not be anywhere near optimal in their choice of food, it is also safe to say that they would make equally bad choices if their diet includes meat.

I know that meat has many nutrient combinations that single vegetable/plant foods don't, but, equally they lack many advantages of a vegetarian diet- I think it's safe to say that a bad vegetarian diet is no worse than a bad meat based diet.

Also, in many ways a vegetarian diet is safer than a meat based one, for people who don't take much care over what they eat- badly cooked/prepared meat is very dangerous.

Your second quote seems to be more about taste- another thing that puts meat eaters off vegetarianism is the belief that it's much harder to create tasty food without meat.

I would say the opposite is true, one of the reasons I didn't miss meat was because of the time and effort required to cook it.

It's not so long ago that the medical profession advised against vegetarianism, saying that meat was essential for good health.

Then there was a phase of saying that there are some benefits to vegetarianism, but you must be very, very careful to combine the vegetable products to ensure complete protein etc.

Now the profession is coming to see that a vegetarian diet means a considerably reduced risk of heart disease and certain cancers.

Lastly, while I wouldn't recomend this, I spent many years as a vegan during which I took no account whatsoever of medical warnings that insisted veganism (not eating any animal produce whatsoever i.e. no eggs, cheese etc) was extremely dangerous without extensive knowledge of which foods to eat and combine.

During those years I didn't even have, according to medical science, adequate protein, because I didn't use any bean products. I also didn't cook much.

The only consession I made was to eat marmite sandwiches(for the B vitamin it contains)

During those years I was active, doing juggling, weight training, running etc, and remained healthy.

Whilst I appreciate that a nutritionist may say that if I'd continued that diet longer then deficiencies could manifest as health problems, the fact that I could do so well for so long on such an extreme form of diet leads me to suspect that the level of nutritional skill necessary to thrive on a (less extreme) vegetarian diet is much less than is sometimes claimed.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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wan hwo ren


wan hwo ren

member
Location: I'm not sure

Total posts: 86
Posted:Quote:
even when i just mention that i am vego, they usually end up asking me why. which really pisses me off!!





When people mention to me that they are vegetarian I usually ask why.

If I ask 'why are you vegetarian?' the emphasis is on the word you because there are so many different and worthy reasons to be a vegetarian. smile



Why do you mention it if it's going to piss you off to talk about it? confused



Quote:
some stupid hippy argument about how animals have feelings!'





Why does it have to be a stupid hippy argument to say that animals have feelings? As far as I'm concerned it's a simple fact that animals have feelings and shouldn't be abused or tortured. I may be a stupid hippy but surely intelligent non hippys also realize that animals have feelings confused



I don't think it's good to be preachy about being a vegetarian (or anything else) but it's not good to be at the other end of the scale and be overly defensive. If somebody asks you something they are probably interested in knowing what you think. It doesn't help much if you assume they are only asking because they think you are stupid. Just my opinion, but I think we would all get along better if we listened to what people say instead of what we assume they mean.



If you are going to assume something about what somebody else thinks without really knowing then why not assume something positive? ubbidea





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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Why do you mention it if it's going to piss you off to talk about it?

because for every vegetarian lecturer, there's a meat eater version. And i'm bored of people trying to deprogram me now, especially when i'm out with my mates enjoying myself. I don't see why I should be on duty 24/7 to answer questions. I am happy if people want to know and i'm free, or if they accept the fact that i'm kinda drunk at the time and not in a state to have a serious discussion, but will chat the following day. If they can't handle this and continue anyway then they simply arn't the sort of people i like to hang out with anyway. At the end of the day, when you've gotten to the level of being vegan, you do so because you really take it seriously and have strong feelings on the matter. Some people see it as being a bit of a joke, others think that they are going to suddenly change my mind by telling me an incredibly new agrument which they didn't take off a website/crappy newspaper column and i haven't heard loads of times "but......what about cheese? do you eat cheese?" *smug look that they may have caught me out*.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have proper discussions with people about it, but only if their intention is because they want to know my views, not to have a chance to try and impose theirs on me. It's sometimes hard to judge this when it's with a complete stranger, especially in a confrontational situation. I'm no amateur debater, and it's quite hard for me to digest the reasons behind all my views in a 2 minute timeslot. Unless i know actually how much they really want to know or whether its just a polite conversation filler, i sometimes feel it's not worth starting. There's nothing worse than someone walking off mid conversation!Thus this is why i sometimes have reservations. smile


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Arakrys


member
Location: Wageningen, NL

Total posts: 34
Posted:Marmite
I had the story of getting B12 through marmite on my peanutbutter site (dutch) too, and this 'fact' is all over the internet, but then I got a mail from a(n alternative) consumer organisation and they said you cannot get your B12 from yeast (as in marmite). If you do not use any animal product you need to get it from artificial sources, pills. There are also products _fortified_ with B12. These are ok. Soy milk, pills, just read the label. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm
has some more on this.

I could hardly find any readable page (in english) on nutrition and vegetarism. http://www.korrnet.org/etvs/nutrition-info.html
comes the closest. They can't imagine food deficiencies so Lightning, if you see many people with problems you may be on to something they did not hear about yet. Come on, give us some juicy examples of the Average American! smile

A Dutch guy I met on a festival in France became a frutarian, ie only eating fruits. He was so strict that once on a cold winter day after having eaten only apples for quite some time, he fainted. Another time he had a bad finger cut which was badly infected, but he was against antibiotics and disinfectants, so he went as far as almost losing that finger. Well he still has it so he probably believes he is right. AFAIK he lives in Oregon now.




protein complimentarity
I have always wondered about having to eat every single amino acid every day, to be able to make every protein. It sounds so counter intuitive that the body cannot keep a little resource of these. What is the status of this theory today?


GMO and third world
Lightning: 'The fact that GMO's are not used in the EU is great because...guess what? There's no food shortage in the EU! So why use GMO's? GMO's are great if there's a food shortage..."
Oh I can go on forever about this. The short of it:
* GMO promises are skyhigh. But GMO can at the most help their little bit alongside maaany other solutions. It's a choice what solution to pick, not a must.
* If you hear the hunger argument it comes from the huge food corporations or those paid by them. Never from grassroot third world organisations. One wonders why...
* 'Golden Rice' is not going to solve vit A deficiency.
* There's no food shortage in India. Yet 800 million are malnourished. GMO will rather make this worse than improve it.
If you would like to discuss this please start a new thread because I am going to write looong messages. And there's no link to vegetarism.

Cross examinations
When people ask me about me eating vegetarian (I never start about it but somehow they always ask) I quickly list my reasons, and always finish 'because it tastes better'. Haha. That always gives a nice turn to the discussion, apart from the heavy environment/third world/bioindustry story. During dinner I prefer a lightweight discussion on what tastes better than having to say things that one way or the other imply that they are damaging the environment and stuff.

Best excuse i ever heard: 'vegetarian food takes up more land space'.
And he believed it....


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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:I could hardly find any readable page (in english) on nutrition and vegetarism



how hard did you look? Both the UK Vegetarian Society and UK Vegan Society have nutrition links clearly marked on their homepages:



http://www.vegsoc.org/health/
br>
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/
br>


in addition pretty much every vegan recipe book i've bought has the first chapter dedicated to nutrition info.



marmite is gross anyway, but according to marmite.com - http://www.marmite.com/marmite/b12.html
it is b12 fortified. Most soya milk, margerine etc is fortified with b12, so i'm not worried. Not much food these days contains no non artificially created substances, vegan or otherwise.


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Arakrys


member
Location: Wageningen, NL

Total posts: 34
Posted:indeed i did not look too good then. same for the marmite, they say 1500% RDA (in 100mg).
sorry! thanks for correcting this. hm well I'll tell this consumer organisation bloke. see what he says.


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firedancingfairy


enthusiast
Location: Australia

Total posts: 201
Posted:Quote:
I'm a vegetarian, although I have been stuck into eating meat on occasion and it doesn't bother my stomach.



How can you be a "vegatarian" and eat meat? confused

From my experience to have strength and blah blah blah, I feel much stronger and full of pure vital energy smile since I've been vegan. Everyone thinks that we're so deprived of nutrition... but you don't know until you live the lifestyle... then you realise there are so many healthy alternatives. And you don't have to have a dead animals in your system either!

As for the people who said they 'love' meat... are you conciously aware that what you're eating is an animal? And why are cows and lambs inferior to cats and dogs... I don't understand how people can be so sympathetic about the poor cat and dog situation, when all kinds of animals are being slaughtered by the second...
peace


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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:My year of meat was intense. It seriously had me wondering if the increase in hormones was responsible for the early development of children - kids are developing as young as 8 or 9.

The amount of hormones and rubbish pumped in to meat is not the only factor to be concerned about though. There is increasing evidence that eating meat full stop is bad for our bodies. Osteoporosis,is linked to diets rich in animal protein, According to a recent study in the American Journal of Gastroenterology the low rate of colon cancer among blacks in South Africa compared to whites is probably not due to a high fibre intake as was thought but rather to a very low intake of animal products.

The following is an excellent article
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/nutritioninanutshell.htm
is an excellent

I enjoy eating meat although not every day. I love and adore the taste of bacon, even though its a shocking betrayel or Penelope Pitstop, Pacman, and Jason, some of the pigs that our family, knew, loved and then devoured.

Most westerners view the eating a horse, cat, dog, whale or dolphin as abhorrent. In years to come our decendants will most likely judge us meat eaters as no worse than cannibals.


Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Arakrys


member
Location: Wageningen, NL

Total posts: 34
Posted:Kat said: " It seriously had me wondering if the increase in hormones was responsible for the early development of children - kids are developing as young as 8 or 9."
When looking at class pictures of American and European highschool kids, i had the impression the American kids look way older. Does anybody share that impression?


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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:I always thought that young Americans in the early teen to mid twenties age group look tons older than Europeans of the same age.

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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