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Forums > Social Discussion > Going to War on Drugs
Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:Ever wondering Y the best equipped military force in history does so poorly in battle, and shoots all its allies???
Well I did, and now I know. Theyre all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .
If U dont believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.
SBS TV Extract quote:When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.
This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.
Well I did, and now I know. Theyre all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .
If U dont believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.
SBS TV Extract quote:When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.
This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
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Posted:More info:
I just talked to our squadren's Flight Surgen... okay somethings to understand, 1 he cant vouch for US Air Force or US Army as he is a Navy Surgen and cant garunte any information about those two branches. He says that the program is probably the same.
2. In the Navy/Marine Corps, any medication that pilot takes, with the exception of over the counter tylonal and multivitamins, MUST be prescribed by a doctor or Corpsman. This is because some medication can cause problems during flight. IE The pilot pulls a G' and blows a sinus, or cause the pilot to black out. They cant even take cough medicine
The pill that N/MC pilots can take, can only be taken if the pilot agrees, the Commanding Officer approves, the MAG CO approves, and the Wing CO approves. This isnt something that is handed out like candy, as some of you have been lead to believe. Second, this is not dexedrin, it is a variant.
This variant has been used since the Korean Conflict, it was nicknamed "Migpill" pilots thought it gave them an edge. In all reality it made them more aware. Now days the pill is only used A. During combat (never training) B. prior to tanking, after an 8 hour flight refueling while exausted is the #1 most dangerus thing a pilot can do. From the time a mishap accures to destruction of the aircraft can be less than a second! The pill is used to give the pilot an added alertness.
Pilots in the Navy and the Marine Corps are not forced nor are the forced to sign any documents saying that they have to take this variant. There is not a single Pilot that I have talked to that has taken this variant.
I am thinking about asking the CO, but you dont just walk up to "The Man" and start firing questions at him
I did not see the Doc. did it mention any of the above facts?
I just talked to our squadren's Flight Surgen... okay somethings to understand, 1 he cant vouch for US Air Force or US Army as he is a Navy Surgen and cant garunte any information about those two branches. He says that the program is probably the same.
2. In the Navy/Marine Corps, any medication that pilot takes, with the exception of over the counter tylonal and multivitamins, MUST be prescribed by a doctor or Corpsman. This is because some medication can cause problems during flight. IE The pilot pulls a G' and blows a sinus, or cause the pilot to black out. They cant even take cough medicine
The pill that N/MC pilots can take, can only be taken if the pilot agrees, the Commanding Officer approves, the MAG CO approves, and the Wing CO approves. This isnt something that is handed out like candy, as some of you have been lead to believe. Second, this is not dexedrin, it is a variant.
This variant has been used since the Korean Conflict, it was nicknamed "Migpill" pilots thought it gave them an edge. In all reality it made them more aware. Now days the pill is only used A. During combat (never training) B. prior to tanking, after an 8 hour flight refueling while exausted is the #1 most dangerus thing a pilot can do. From the time a mishap accures to destruction of the aircraft can be less than a second! The pill is used to give the pilot an added alertness.
Pilots in the Navy and the Marine Corps are not forced nor are the forced to sign any documents saying that they have to take this variant. There is not a single Pilot that I have talked to that has taken this variant.
I am thinking about asking the CO, but you dont just walk up to "The Man" and start firing questions at him
I did not see the Doc. did it mention any of the above facts?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Even more info
Okay, I have spoken to one of our pilots who has been in combat during the "Gulf War #2".
In order to use the dexedrin variant, you must first pass a static test. IE you must take the pill on the ground, this is so that you can be monitord for any reaction. You must pass this before you are allowed to take it in the air.
He has also confirmed what I have previusly said about all the destrations one faces in a combat situation.
Say AWAKs (the big plane with the big radar dish on top) says "Target 2a at blah blah is no joy" Meaning you cant drop on that target, it doesnt mean that the Pilot heard.
When you have AA, SAMs and other things going on the ability to mentaly track everything is greatly reduced. Just because something was said and went strait into a flight recorder, doesnt mean that the pilot physically heard it. This effect is called the Fog of War. It is a part of combat that you are taught to expect and they try to prepare you for it, but there is no class out there that can compair to the real world situations.
No documentery can reproduce the events as they happend. Sure they can reply a tape over and over but that doesnt compair with what actually happens.
He also told me that the fact most to blame for FF incidents is not the pill but fatigue, something the pill is proven to overcome.
Operations during combat are 24-7, he told me of only getting 4 hours of sleep between flights and also how he has never taken the pill during a hop.
Your body gets used to a sleep cycle, but when that changes, then that is when things can get tough.
Okay, I have spoken to one of our pilots who has been in combat during the "Gulf War #2".
In order to use the dexedrin variant, you must first pass a static test. IE you must take the pill on the ground, this is so that you can be monitord for any reaction. You must pass this before you are allowed to take it in the air.
He has also confirmed what I have previusly said about all the destrations one faces in a combat situation.
Say AWAKs (the big plane with the big radar dish on top) says "Target 2a at blah blah is no joy" Meaning you cant drop on that target, it doesnt mean that the Pilot heard.
When you have AA, SAMs and other things going on the ability to mentaly track everything is greatly reduced. Just because something was said and went strait into a flight recorder, doesnt mean that the pilot physically heard it. This effect is called the Fog of War. It is a part of combat that you are taught to expect and they try to prepare you for it, but there is no class out there that can compair to the real world situations.
No documentery can reproduce the events as they happend. Sure they can reply a tape over and over but that doesnt compair with what actually happens.
He also told me that the fact most to blame for FF incidents is not the pill but fatigue, something the pill is proven to overcome.
Operations during combat are 24-7, he told me of only getting 4 hours of sleep between flights and also how he has never taken the pill during a hop.
Your body gets used to a sleep cycle, but when that changes, then that is when things can get tough.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Hmm... I see that you cant argue with the people in the know. hehehehe *adds yet another point to his scoreboard*
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Ray, are U serious???
quote:Hmm... I see that you cant argue with the people in the know. hehehehe *adds yet another point to his scoreboard*Are u sure u have awarded to point to the winning side, Ray??? I think you have proved the case that the US government sanctions the use of amphetamines by the US Air Force, and confirms the fact that US pilots are issued with dex amphetamine.
static test. Its gotta be different in a battle situation. In the doco they interviewed 5 or 6 pilots and ex pilots, and they told a different story; a dark story about loosing control when their system was full of dex and then overloaded with natural adrenalin that the body produces in response to a battle situation. Watch it when u get a chance.
Personally, I think many of the recent ff incidents and stuff ups are caused by inappropriate training, poor leader ship, poor tactics and the arrogance of underestimation the enemy; just like in Vietnam. I am also surprised by how flippantly you treat these incidents. I would have thought that an important objective of any military force would be to minimise this situations, but the US militarie's attitude and complacency in this regard is worrying. It is not a joke.
The other side to this discussion is the double standard on drugs. So its ok for pilots to be off their head on amphetamines, and shoot whatever they feel like, and this is obviously sanctions by the US government. But, hey the US government is so paranoid of amphetamines it introduce or intends to introduce draconian legislation (meth/rave bill) where even the humble glowstick is considered drug paraphernalia. Now, what type of example is the US Goverment setting for if kids if it allows US pilots, like in Top Gun, to use drugs.
quote:Hmm... I see that you cant argue with the people in the know. hehehehe *adds yet another point to his scoreboard*Are u sure u have awarded to point to the winning side, Ray??? I think you have proved the case that the US government sanctions the use of amphetamines by the US Air Force, and confirms the fact that US pilots are issued with dex amphetamine.
static test. Its gotta be different in a battle situation. In the doco they interviewed 5 or 6 pilots and ex pilots, and they told a different story; a dark story about loosing control when their system was full of dex and then overloaded with natural adrenalin that the body produces in response to a battle situation. Watch it when u get a chance.
Personally, I think many of the recent ff incidents and stuff ups are caused by inappropriate training, poor leader ship, poor tactics and the arrogance of underestimation the enemy; just like in Vietnam. I am also surprised by how flippantly you treat these incidents. I would have thought that an important objective of any military force would be to minimise this situations, but the US militarie's attitude and complacency in this regard is worrying. It is not a joke.
The other side to this discussion is the double standard on drugs. So its ok for pilots to be off their head on amphetamines, and shoot whatever they feel like, and this is obviously sanctions by the US government. But, hey the US government is so paranoid of amphetamines it introduce or intends to introduce draconian legislation (meth/rave bill) where even the humble glowstick is considered drug paraphernalia. Now, what type of example is the US Goverment setting for if kids if it allows US pilots, like in Top Gun, to use drugs.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
DeletePosted:<gatecrashes thread>
Stone, speaking of interesting docos - have you been watching the one on the history of terrorism? It has been fascinating - especially as a few early 20th century, termed, at the time, terrorists, went on to be leaders of their countries?
very interesting indeed
part three next week - wednesday ABC at 8.30 (I think)
ade
Stone, speaking of interesting docos - have you been watching the one on the history of terrorism? It has been fascinating - especially as a few early 20th century, termed, at the time, terrorists, went on to be leaders of their countries?
very interesting indeed
part three next week - wednesday ABC at 8.30 (I think)
ade
Delete
Posted:Bout time you popped in here, damn I gotta say something stupid to get people to respond.
Yes it is used, I have never denied it.
Yep a static test is differnt, when you think about it though, adreniline would be pretty friggin high in combat with or without the variant. However, as I am sure that the Doc was onesided, being BBC, they only told of the FEW cases where there was a problem. I wonder if they showed you a comparison between how many people used the dexedrin variant and didnt have any problems vs those who used and did.
quote: Personally, I think many of the recent ff incidents and stuff ups are caused by inappropriate training, poor leader ship, poor tactics and the arrogance of underestimation the enemy; just like in Vietnam. I am also surprised by how flippantly you treat these incidents. I would have thought that an important objective of any military force would be to minimise this situations, but the US militarie's attitude and complacency in this regard is worrying. It is not a joke. Stop! now your just being sencless, who said anything about this being a joke? Did you do research to see how much time is put into mishap investigations, do you know how many hours are spent on safty, hell just yesterday I spent the afternoon in a Safty Brief, 4 solid hours of seeing what happens when you screw up, and how it could have been avoided. Have you ever seen someones head chopped in half by a helo prop?
Trust me the US Miltary takes mishaps and incidents very very friggen serius.
However we also know, that there is never just one thing that causes an incident. Experiance is often the best teacher with the hardest lessons.
Where did you see in Top Gun them using drugs? Drinking heavily, yes. But illeagle drugs?? Please...
They dont shoot whatever they want, did you not read what I wrote. They cant even take cough medicin without a perscription. Sorry no it isnt considerd that type of drug. Did you read anything that I wrote? Out of all the officers that I spoke to, only 1 ONE, said that he had taken the pill.
Ade is right, the Brittish labled George Washington as a terrorist, then again it would be easier to call what the Brittish did terrorisim than what the Colonists did.
hehe that sounds like a good un, I wish I could watch it
Yes it is used, I have never denied it.
Yep a static test is differnt, when you think about it though, adreniline would be pretty friggin high in combat with or without the variant. However, as I am sure that the Doc was onesided, being BBC, they only told of the FEW cases where there was a problem. I wonder if they showed you a comparison between how many people used the dexedrin variant and didnt have any problems vs those who used and did.
quote: Personally, I think many of the recent ff incidents and stuff ups are caused by inappropriate training, poor leader ship, poor tactics and the arrogance of underestimation the enemy; just like in Vietnam. I am also surprised by how flippantly you treat these incidents. I would have thought that an important objective of any military force would be to minimise this situations, but the US militarie's attitude and complacency in this regard is worrying. It is not a joke. Stop! now your just being sencless, who said anything about this being a joke? Did you do research to see how much time is put into mishap investigations, do you know how many hours are spent on safty, hell just yesterday I spent the afternoon in a Safty Brief, 4 solid hours of seeing what happens when you screw up, and how it could have been avoided. Have you ever seen someones head chopped in half by a helo prop?
Trust me the US Miltary takes mishaps and incidents very very friggen serius.
However we also know, that there is never just one thing that causes an incident. Experiance is often the best teacher with the hardest lessons.
Where did you see in Top Gun them using drugs? Drinking heavily, yes. But illeagle drugs?? Please...
They dont shoot whatever they want, did you not read what I wrote. They cant even take cough medicin without a perscription. Sorry no it isnt considerd that type of drug. Did you read anything that I wrote? Out of all the officers that I spoke to, only 1 ONE, said that he had taken the pill.
Ade is right, the Brittish labled George Washington as a terrorist, then again it would be easier to call what the Brittish did terrorisim than what the Colonists did.
hehe that sounds like a good un, I wish I could watch it
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:quote:Hmm... I see that you cant argue with the people in the know. hehehehe *adds yet another point to his scoreboard*this guy is frikkin' hilarious!
subject of thread: "going to war on drugs"
topic overview: theorising about the effects of US pilots flying on drugs - whether they do and whether it affects their performance
most convincing evidence that this is right: a US army member and fanatic ranting and raving about how they get TWO types of drugs, that they affect people enough that they need a ground test - but they are NOT tested during training so the pilots reaction in a combat situation cannot be ascertained, that the military doesn't have to obey the law, defending friendly fire incident as just something that happens and that we should deal with it
We'll be sure to tell the families of those that died.
"sorry, but the US military is above the law - whether or not they were taking amphetemines - just deal with it"
and you Seriously think you've won this arguement?
subject of thread: "going to war on drugs"
topic overview: theorising about the effects of US pilots flying on drugs - whether they do and whether it affects their performance
most convincing evidence that this is right: a US army member and fanatic ranting and raving about how they get TWO types of drugs, that they affect people enough that they need a ground test - but they are NOT tested during training so the pilots reaction in a combat situation cannot be ascertained, that the military doesn't have to obey the law, defending friendly fire incident as just something that happens and that we should deal with it
We'll be sure to tell the families of those that died.
"sorry, but the US military is above the law - whether or not they were taking amphetemines - just deal with it"
and you Seriously think you've won this arguement?
I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DeletePosted:Hrm first he insults me by saying that I am in the Army, then says I am a fanatic and that I am ranting and raving! *shakes his head* Is that the only thing you can do? Try to insult me? Have you no other tactic?
Tell ya what Frosty, it is obvius that you dont read to well. Like I said, I had to stay something supid to get yall to respond, that being the point thing.
FF incidents do happen, undisputed fact. Am I not right? You however are trying to blame a single reason, I am here to tell you that there is no single cause for a FF incident.
quote: that they affect people enough that they need a ground test - but they are NOT tested during training so the pilots reaction in a combat situation cannot be ascertained, Did you know that people are alergic to some forms of medicine? What would you say to putting a pilot (lets use the F/A 18D, a 2 seated aircraft) and an electronics officer up in the air with a 27 million dollar aircraft lets say 30,000 pounds of fuel lets say they take off from MCAS Miramar, (located in downtown San Diego) then give the pilot this pill. The pilot has an alergic reaction, that say causes him to pass out.
What have you just done? Well... it is possible that the EO would eject, he would probably live, the plane would crash, killing the pilot, and lets just add another horrer into the equation, lets say the plane crashes into rush hour trafic.
How many people do you want to kill, by giving someone a drug that you have no clue how they will react to, and then send em up in a plane where they might kill someone, or themselves?
Here is the thing man, you dont think. Well scratch that, you do think, but you dont think with the same logic that the military uses.
You think very 2D. You see a single reason for an action, where as the military sees mulitple.
You have to understand that the way things are run are not a simple as you think. The way choices are made, is not as simle as "do you want fries with that?".
Families have to learn to deal with death no matter how a loved one dies. That is just a fact of life.
quote: that the military doesn't have to obey the law, defending friendly fire incident as just something that happens and that we should deal with it
The military has more laws to follow than civilians. Can you comprehend this?
quote: "sorry, but the US military is above the law - whether or not they were taking amphetemines - just deal with it"
Was that supposed to be a quote from me? Or were you having a deluted fantasy that you had a clue of what the military is like or what someone would say?
Frankly man, you dont have a clue. You are a moron. Whats worse is that your ignorant of what happens in the real world. Sure you watch the news and know how to look things up on the net, but you dont understand why or how things work. You will never understand the military untill you live it. An observer can not grasp the full impact of what goes on, it just isnt possible. You are an ingnorant moron of an observer.
Tell ya what Frosty, it is obvius that you dont read to well. Like I said, I had to stay something supid to get yall to respond, that being the point thing.
FF incidents do happen, undisputed fact. Am I not right? You however are trying to blame a single reason, I am here to tell you that there is no single cause for a FF incident.
quote: that they affect people enough that they need a ground test - but they are NOT tested during training so the pilots reaction in a combat situation cannot be ascertained, Did you know that people are alergic to some forms of medicine? What would you say to putting a pilot (lets use the F/A 18D, a 2 seated aircraft) and an electronics officer up in the air with a 27 million dollar aircraft lets say 30,000 pounds of fuel lets say they take off from MCAS Miramar, (located in downtown San Diego) then give the pilot this pill. The pilot has an alergic reaction, that say causes him to pass out.
What have you just done? Well... it is possible that the EO would eject, he would probably live, the plane would crash, killing the pilot, and lets just add another horrer into the equation, lets say the plane crashes into rush hour trafic.
How many people do you want to kill, by giving someone a drug that you have no clue how they will react to, and then send em up in a plane where they might kill someone, or themselves?
Here is the thing man, you dont think. Well scratch that, you do think, but you dont think with the same logic that the military uses.
You think very 2D. You see a single reason for an action, where as the military sees mulitple.
You have to understand that the way things are run are not a simple as you think. The way choices are made, is not as simle as "do you want fries with that?".
Families have to learn to deal with death no matter how a loved one dies. That is just a fact of life.
quote: that the military doesn't have to obey the law, defending friendly fire incident as just something that happens and that we should deal with it
The military has more laws to follow than civilians. Can you comprehend this?
quote: "sorry, but the US military is above the law - whether or not they were taking amphetemines - just deal with it"
Was that supposed to be a quote from me? Or were you having a deluted fantasy that you had a clue of what the military is like or what someone would say?
Frankly man, you dont have a clue. You are a moron. Whats worse is that your ignorant of what happens in the real world. Sure you watch the news and know how to look things up on the net, but you dont understand why or how things work. You will never understand the military untill you live it. An observer can not grasp the full impact of what goes on, it just isnt possible. You are an ingnorant moron of an observer.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:quote:FF incidents do happen, undisputed fact. Am I not right? You however are trying to blame a single reason, I am here to tell you that there is no single cause for a FF incident.No i'm not
and i've never said anything like that
Since you're making up stuff within a paragraph of the start of the post i stopped reading
if you have a reasonable arguement to make please feel free without making stuff up. and do remember you don't know who you're talking to or how informed they are so try not to make a fool of yourself
and i've never said anything like that
Since you're making up stuff within a paragraph of the start of the post i stopped reading
if you have a reasonable arguement to make please feel free without making stuff up. and do remember you don't know who you're talking to or how informed they are so try not to make a fool of yourself
I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Delete
Posted:Hahaha, I thought this was another UK/US lead mission to rid the world of fun
Hmmmm, I'm not sure I've got anything to add.....I just think there a few funny points over the course of this thread.
Never thought I'd see the day Ray is advocating the use of drugs, especially when so many lives are at stake. I persoanlly wouldn't leave myself in charge of any mechanical object under any sort of drugs, be it alcohol or cough medicine.
But he's right the US forces are above the law..... law is decided by the people with the biggest arms, and history is re-written by the victors. Note: - I refuse to use the word arrogance anywhere in this thread, even though I also direct this towards our own country and we deserve it.
The UK, were the biggest dark evil bunch of bastards over the last 200 years....and now we're suffering for our blood spilled. We came up with prisoner of war camps, we were pioneers in slavery, conquest, and killing the defenceless in the name of peace and civilisation. Fortunately for MY conscience is happy to say that we grew out of this childish bullying bullsh!t (largely due to our forces being so badly screwed over by 2 world wars???, I don't know....). It is the way of things that the powerful bully and exploit the poor and weak.
Nations of people follow in some blind sheep-like zombie state as they're subjected to media and propoganda, (although it isn't called that unless you're the outside the hype) and everyone's entire belief system is structured on what the fact that they've been told is true, so they don't argue.
We will have to deal with it, and if we find America at fault it'll say "**** you, what you gonna do about it?" - Bet you a new house.....
They did it to China over a stupid plane because they were too up their own arse to apologise for spying on them too close, no?
How far can the depths of denial reach I wonder?
Hmmmm, I'm not sure I've got anything to add.....I just think there a few funny points over the course of this thread.
Never thought I'd see the day Ray is advocating the use of drugs, especially when so many lives are at stake. I persoanlly wouldn't leave myself in charge of any mechanical object under any sort of drugs, be it alcohol or cough medicine.
But he's right the US forces are above the law..... law is decided by the people with the biggest arms, and history is re-written by the victors. Note: - I refuse to use the word arrogance anywhere in this thread, even though I also direct this towards our own country and we deserve it.
The UK, were the biggest dark evil bunch of bastards over the last 200 years....and now we're suffering for our blood spilled. We came up with prisoner of war camps, we were pioneers in slavery, conquest, and killing the defenceless in the name of peace and civilisation. Fortunately for MY conscience is happy to say that we grew out of this childish bullying bullsh!t (largely due to our forces being so badly screwed over by 2 world wars???, I don't know....). It is the way of things that the powerful bully and exploit the poor and weak.
Nations of people follow in some blind sheep-like zombie state as they're subjected to media and propoganda, (although it isn't called that unless you're the outside the hype) and everyone's entire belief system is structured on what the fact that they've been told is true, so they don't argue.
We will have to deal with it, and if we find America at fault it'll say "**** you, what you gonna do about it?" - Bet you a new house.....
They did it to China over a stupid plane because they were too up their own arse to apologise for spying on them too close, no?
How far can the depths of denial reach I wonder?
Small Lardy Person In Disguise
DeletePosted:Wow, this guy! He is a spin master. Yall see that? He makes stuff up, not only insults me but when I say that he is trying to blame one item in an equation, he says it isnt true, and stops reading.
Personally I think he is just running out of stuff to spin off.
Frosty, your right, I dont know who you are. But I know who I am, I know where to find information from the source. From the people who read the reports, who have even sat on FF investigation teams.
So do tell me, who are you, and what do you know?
Smallboy, first off, a P3 Orian, is a sub hunter, not a spy plane, secondly a Mig (this being a highly manuverable aircraft) crashes into our plane. Explain this to me, how can a slow moving prop driven plane manuver so quickly that the guy flying a fighter cant avoid a collision? I'll answer that for you, IT CANT!
Granted, like the Russians, the Cinese have more pilots than planes (we have the same thing but the ratio isnt a big) the average Chinese Pilot averages 30 hours a year behind the stick, while US pilots average 30 hours a month! Russians are far worse.
quote: Never thought I'd see the day Ray is advocating the use of drugs, especially when so many lives are at stake. I persoanlly wouldn't leave myself in charge of any mechanical object under any sort of drugs, be it alcohol or cough medicine Am I advocating or defending drug use? No. I am flat out telling you that the drug used was not the only factor. Nor can it be blamed for the sole reason for any FF incident.
Key points that have been ignored:
What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?
What are all the factors that could have caused the FF incidents?
So, why have you all ignored these? Is it possible that you dont know? I mean a Doc. that was so good at covering all the fact, would surly tell you these things.
BBC is just as biased and a proppaganda tool as CNN and Fox news.
Yes all news is proppaganda, all news agencies are tools. US Brit, Oz, you name it, it is.
Frosty, you have no argument left, of course your just going to skip whatever I say, as if your above it. You have lost this little debate. Face it man.
Personally I think he is just running out of stuff to spin off.
Frosty, your right, I dont know who you are. But I know who I am, I know where to find information from the source. From the people who read the reports, who have even sat on FF investigation teams.
So do tell me, who are you, and what do you know?
Smallboy, first off, a P3 Orian, is a sub hunter, not a spy plane, secondly a Mig (this being a highly manuverable aircraft) crashes into our plane. Explain this to me, how can a slow moving prop driven plane manuver so quickly that the guy flying a fighter cant avoid a collision? I'll answer that for you, IT CANT!
Granted, like the Russians, the Cinese have more pilots than planes (we have the same thing but the ratio isnt a big) the average Chinese Pilot averages 30 hours a year behind the stick, while US pilots average 30 hours a month! Russians are far worse.
quote: Never thought I'd see the day Ray is advocating the use of drugs, especially when so many lives are at stake. I persoanlly wouldn't leave myself in charge of any mechanical object under any sort of drugs, be it alcohol or cough medicine Am I advocating or defending drug use? No. I am flat out telling you that the drug used was not the only factor. Nor can it be blamed for the sole reason for any FF incident.
Key points that have been ignored:
What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?
What are all the factors that could have caused the FF incidents?
So, why have you all ignored these? Is it possible that you dont know? I mean a Doc. that was so good at covering all the fact, would surly tell you these things.
BBC is just as biased and a proppaganda tool as CNN and Fox news.
Yes all news is proppaganda, all news agencies are tools. US Brit, Oz, you name it, it is.
Frosty, you have no argument left, of course your just going to skip whatever I say, as if your above it. You have lost this little debate. Face it man.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeleteSpanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
![Spanner]()
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Total posts: 2790
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003
remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Total posts: 2790
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
You have lost this little debate. Face it man. Ray, I am becoming increasingly concerned about your thinking that these debates can be won or lost. I read another post in which you described yourself chalking up another point on the board. Is this what these debates mean to you or are you genuinely interested in divulging your opinions and respecting those of others?
You have lost this little debate. Face it man. Ray, I am becoming increasingly concerned about your thinking that these debates can be won or lost. I read another post in which you described yourself chalking up another point on the board. Is this what these debates mean to you or are you genuinely interested in divulging your opinions and respecting those of others?
"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.
yay,
:R"
Posted:By Ray,
'What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?'
Erm... who cares?? People still died because these pilots were using drugs or doesnt that matter? Are ratios all you care about??
You are classic! Great you love your country and fight and kill people for it, hurrah for you! But did you ever think that your full of shit?
Granted i dont know you but from what you've said in this and other posts i really dont want to. I dont know all the facts, neither do you, but you obviously think youre higher than everyone else (us civilians that is) because you are a marine, whos the arrogant one now?
'Did you know that people are alergic to some forms of medicine? What would you say to putting a pilot (lets use the F/A 18D, a 2 seated aircraft) and an electronics officer up in the air with a 27 million dollar aircraft lets say 30,000 pounds of fuel lets say they take off from MCAS Miramar, (located in downtown San Diego) then give the pilot this pill. The pilot has an alergic reaction, that say causes him to pass out.'
As for this, cant they do a test on the ground and if there are no allergic reactions test it in training? Is that not possible? Is the military too impatient to do this?
As im not an american, thats my two pennies!
(p.s. that means PEACE ray, so chill!)
'What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?'
Erm... who cares?? People still died because these pilots were using drugs or doesnt that matter? Are ratios all you care about??
You are classic! Great you love your country and fight and kill people for it, hurrah for you! But did you ever think that your full of shit?
Granted i dont know you but from what you've said in this and other posts i really dont want to. I dont know all the facts, neither do you, but you obviously think youre higher than everyone else (us civilians that is) because you are a marine, whos the arrogant one now?
'Did you know that people are alergic to some forms of medicine? What would you say to putting a pilot (lets use the F/A 18D, a 2 seated aircraft) and an electronics officer up in the air with a 27 million dollar aircraft lets say 30,000 pounds of fuel lets say they take off from MCAS Miramar, (located in downtown San Diego) then give the pilot this pill. The pilot has an alergic reaction, that say causes him to pass out.'
As for this, cant they do a test on the ground and if there are no allergic reactions test it in training? Is that not possible? Is the military too impatient to do this?
As im not an american, thats my two pennies!
(p.s. that means PEACE ray, so chill!)
Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.
DeletePosted:quote:Key points that have been ignored:
What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?
What are all the factors that could have caused the FF incidents?
So, why have you all ignored these? Is it possible that you dont know? I mean a Doc. that was so good at covering all the fact, would surly tell you these things.You really are too stupid to even understand this discussion....
...we're discussing - and agreeing on our own - that the drugs might have been a factor
NOONE has ever said they were 100% the only things to blame.
Please... go back and read the postings and work out what this thread is about before making yourself look any more foolish mate!
What is the ratio between US missions that have used the pill and had no incidents to US missions that have used the pill and had an incident?
What are all the factors that could have caused the FF incidents?
So, why have you all ignored these? Is it possible that you dont know? I mean a Doc. that was so good at covering all the fact, would surly tell you these things.You really are too stupid to even understand this discussion....
...we're discussing - and agreeing on our own - that the drugs might have been a factor
NOONE has ever said they were 100% the only things to blame.
Please... go back and read the postings and work out what this thread is about before making yourself look any more foolish mate!
I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DeletePosted:How many people die each year to alcohol? Drugs? Smoking?
How many people, get into a car reck for none other than a meer accident?
People die all the time.
If you start outlawing things just because people die, there will be nothing left. Not even firebreathing!
Your right, you dont know me, and you dont know what I care about. Ratio thing was to show that it wasnt the pills fault. I do care about the deaths, FF arnt just done to civilians and other countries military, they happen to us as well. Murphy's law of combat, the only thing more accurate than incomming enimy fire, is incomming friendly fire.
Unfortunatly I dont write policy, I just hear about it and repeat it you.
Peace is a dream, sober up and smell the gunpowder!
Frosty, you agree that the pill isnt at fault, yet you continue to cry about its use, why?
If it is the reason for the incidents, then why care if it is used?
Yes, I am stupid, stupid to try to debate with someone who has their mind set on something before they even know a fraction of the facts.
How many people, get into a car reck for none other than a meer accident?
People die all the time.
If you start outlawing things just because people die, there will be nothing left. Not even firebreathing!
Your right, you dont know me, and you dont know what I care about. Ratio thing was to show that it wasnt the pills fault. I do care about the deaths, FF arnt just done to civilians and other countries military, they happen to us as well. Murphy's law of combat, the only thing more accurate than incomming enimy fire, is incomming friendly fire.
Unfortunatly I dont write policy, I just hear about it and repeat it you.
Peace is a dream, sober up and smell the gunpowder!
Frosty, you agree that the pill isnt at fault, yet you continue to cry about its use, why?
If it is the reason for the incidents, then why care if it is used?
Yes, I am stupid, stupid to try to debate with someone who has their mind set on something before they even know a fraction of the facts.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:quote:Frosty, you agree that the pill isnt at fault, yet you continue to cry about its use, why?
If it is the reason for the incidents, then why care if it is used?*speaks very slowly*
The documentary and all the work done by these researchers is to investigate whether it was a factor.
That's all ray... noone's saying it was ALL the drug's fault, noone's saying anything about all the other stuff you come up with in that last post....
they're just wondering if the drugs could be a factor... ok?
If it is the reason for the incidents, then why care if it is used?*speaks very slowly*
The documentary and all the work done by these researchers is to investigate whether it was a factor.
That's all ray... noone's saying it was ALL the drug's fault, noone's saying anything about all the other stuff you come up with in that last post....
they're just wondering if the drugs could be a factor... ok?
I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DeletePosted:Bull hocky there Frosty, all you have tried to do on this topic is blame the drug. Why do you keep spinning your little tales, thats two topics now that you have reversed your opinion, why?
They are just wondering? Like they are just kinda thinking about launching an informal query about the possible issue. Wow, you see that he goes from saying the US gives its pilots speed to downplay! Very interesting!
They are just wondering? Like they are just kinda thinking about launching an informal query about the possible issue. Wow, you see that he goes from saying the US gives its pilots speed to downplay! Very interesting!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:quote:Bull hocky there Frosty, all you have tried to do on this topic is blame the drug. Why do you keep spinning your little tales, thats two topics now that you have reversed your opinion, why?
They are just wondering? Like they are just kinda thinking about launching an informal query about the possible issue. Wow, you see that he goes from saying the US gives its pilots speed to downplay! Very interesting!"All you"???
Why are you attacking me rather than the documentary that said it?
Too much of a wimp to do anything more than try and bully someone you think is small into shutting up? You big bad brave marine you
Shall we get a child in here for you to bully? they're less threatening but possibly still better informed than you.
Comically at no point in this thread have i said that the drugs that were all that was to blame.
They are just wondering? Like they are just kinda thinking about launching an informal query about the possible issue. Wow, you see that he goes from saying the US gives its pilots speed to downplay! Very interesting!"All you"???
Why are you attacking me rather than the documentary that said it?
Too much of a wimp to do anything more than try and bully someone you think is small into shutting up? You big bad brave marine you
Shall we get a child in here for you to bully? they're less threatening but possibly still better informed than you.
Comically at no point in this thread have i said that the drugs that were all that was to blame.
I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DeletePosted:hahahahahha your funny man, you think I am bullying you? Where did you get that from hahahaha you should do stand up!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
Deletecoleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
![coleman]()
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Total posts: 7330
SILVER Member since Aug 2002
big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Peace is a dream, sober up and smell the gunpowder! only you ray...
Peace is a dream, sober up and smell the gunpowder! only you ray...
"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood
Posted:Glad someone took that as a joke Perhaps now I wont get anymore nasty PMs about my sensitivity level
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Thanks Ade, "The History of Terrorism" sounds like an interesting program, unfortunately Wed night TV clashes with Fire Jam. Will keep an eye out for when it is repeated
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
DeletePosted:quote:Originally posted by frostypaw:
Comically at no point in this thread have i said that the drugs that were all that was to blame. Well... in fact you did not come out right and say that. However your sure implied it...
quote: it would explain a lot of the random killings/shooting into crowds/torture and abuse of captives etc - speed and morals don't mix well
quote: If you're caught driving a car on speed here it's immediate loss of license I believe.
I'm sure they're not doing that because their No-Doze(tm) makes them better drivers quote: and we wouldn't let our pilots fly around drugged up because we're responsible enough to CARE if we shoot friendly troops quote: and that's what's turning up the drugs stuff...
not complicated issit I mean for the first page almost every other post you made implied that the drugs were the cause for all the FF.
However you also never came out and said that you understood how there were many many many possible reasons an FF incident can happen.
You still have yet to apologise for your very rude and unwarented comments. quote: Too much of a wimp to do anything more than try and bully someone you think is small into shutting up? You big bad brave marine you
Shall we get a child in here for you to bully? they're less threatening but possibly still better informed than you.
Just incase you needed a reminder of what you said.
Comically at no point in this thread have i said that the drugs that were all that was to blame. Well... in fact you did not come out right and say that. However your sure implied it...
quote: it would explain a lot of the random killings/shooting into crowds/torture and abuse of captives etc - speed and morals don't mix well
quote: If you're caught driving a car on speed here it's immediate loss of license I believe.
I'm sure they're not doing that because their No-Doze(tm) makes them better drivers quote: and we wouldn't let our pilots fly around drugged up because we're responsible enough to CARE if we shoot friendly troops quote: and that's what's turning up the drugs stuff...
not complicated issit I mean for the first page almost every other post you made implied that the drugs were the cause for all the FF.
However you also never came out and said that you understood how there were many many many possible reasons an FF incident can happen.
You still have yet to apologise for your very rude and unwarented comments. quote: Too much of a wimp to do anything more than try and bully someone you think is small into shutting up? You big bad brave marine you
Shall we get a child in here for you to bully? they're less threatening but possibly still better informed than you.
Just incase you needed a reminder of what you said.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Wow hypocrite or what!
Its ok for you to insult people and call them morons etc. and not apologise but god forbid someone insults you! Or are people not allowed to insult big bad marines?
Its ok for you to insult people and call them morons etc. and not apologise but god forbid someone insults you! Or are people not allowed to insult big bad marines?
Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.
DeletePosted:You know out of all the insults I have given, none have been that personal. I could have gone after so many things to insult him, but I didnt. And then you come along and call me a hypocrite because I dont like someone going and handing out personal insults left and right.
Its cool though. Defend him if you will.
Its cool though. Defend him if you will.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Its unfortunate how the vast majority if these debates wind up becoming personal attacks rather than discussing the topic in question in a civil manner.
Its a damn shame that rhetoric is no longer mandatory in schools..
Raph
Its a damn shame that rhetoric is no longer mandatory in schools..
Raph
Delete
Posted:I garunte that 90% of these posts end the way they do because I have the luxury of seeing things black and white, while the majority of the rest the debaters either do not, or do not exorcise that liberty. In part it is my unwillingness to comprimise that causes problems too. However I try to avoid getting too personal with my insults. I'm all for a good name calling, but somethings are just out of line.
I cause alot of headache here, its fun at times and at others people just stump the hell out of me and I either really get into things or I lose intrest.
I will admit that I am at fault, though not the sole person at fault, for the way these debates go.
I cause alot of headache here, its fun at times and at others people just stump the hell out of me and I either really get into things or I lose intrest.
I will admit that I am at fault, though not the sole person at fault, for the way these debates go.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Ill start the Kum By Yas! *clears throat* ... what are the words??
Lets all be friends! This thread has turned into a great big slagging match and should either be completely stopped or discussed civily, and the former would be a shame because it is a worthwhile topic.
So Ray, can you stop personal attacks? however provoked you feel. That goes for everyone else as well. Lets all smile and be friends!
Lets all be friends! This thread has turned into a great big slagging match and should either be completely stopped or discussed civily, and the former would be a shame because it is a worthwhile topic.
So Ray, can you stop personal attacks? however provoked you feel. That goes for everyone else as well. Lets all smile and be friends!
Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.
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