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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ever wondering Y the best equipped military force in history does so poorly in battle, and shoots all its allies???

Well I did, and now I know. Theyre all drugged to the eyeballs on speed, just like the Nazis were in WW11 .

If U dont believe me, the Aussies can watch THE CUTTING EDGE - THE NEED FOR SPEED - Going to War on Drugs on SBS TV tonight.

SBS TV Extract quote:When Tom Cruise uttered those famous words in the film Top Gun, "I feel the need, the need for speed", he would not have known that his words had already been taken literally by the U.S. Air Force, in a way he could never have imagined.

This documentary exposes how the Air Force, Navy and Special Forces have been issuing mind-altering drugs to their soldiers and airmen - almost certainly resulting in the deaths of allied forces and innocent civilians. In an extraordinary investigation, American military personnel speak for the first time, to explain how they were used as guinea pigs in wars ranging from the Gulf, Bosnia, Afghanistan and right up until the recent conflict in Iraq. We also discover that vital information on 'friendly fire' incidents has been withheld and examine the true human costs of wars fought on drugs.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:And I, officially, request the same...

As said before, if you feel you have been personally attacked or directly insulted, DON'T respond in kind, for that makes you just as guilty as the first party.

Instead, click the "report post" button at the bottom of the offending post, and let the mods sort it out.

Cheers


HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Hear hear. Would be a shame if this thread had to be closed too.

*spanner lights, puffs and passes the peace pipe*


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:I mean for the first page almost every other post you made implied that the drugs were the cause for all the FF.Nope, they all implied that the drugs might have something to do with the FF incidents. At no point did they ever say they were the singular cause. Feel free to go check. It's hard for us to discuss this if you forget what's been said. Every quote you made there backs that up.

quote:I garunte that 90% of these posts end the way they do because I have the luxury of seeing things black and white, while the majority of the rest the debaters either do not, or do not exorcise that liberty.That, sir, is the problem - there is no black and white, and to oversimplify things to that level is not a luxury.

It's totalitarianism or worse, what's right and wrong for you is Not neccesarily true for everyone else and to presume so is madness


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frosty, are you saying that for the past two pages that we have agreed that the drug could have a possible effect on FF incidents? What in the world have you been arguing with me about? I said that the drug could have some to blame, but I have also strived to show that there are other reasons that a FF incidnet can happen. These reasons have fallen on deaf ears though.


If what is right and wrong for me is not the same for everyone else is true, then why have laws?

Why is it that when I said that the military is above the law, there was an outcry? If right and wrong vary person to person then who cares?


Why make things illeagle, why? You have no answer for this, because you know that there is a foundation of laws in life. You know that murder, stealing, and what not is wrong. You may not understand why you think this but you do.

The world is black and white. To put it in terms you might understand better, you are either a 1 or a 0, there is no imbetween!


I was wrong about you once Frosty, that I will openly admit, but you are wrong here.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:damnit I just lost what I wrote

Anyhoo the long and the short of it.

Frosty, to say that right and wrong vary from person to person is to throw off all that is human. Are you saying it is okay to for some to murder and not okay for others?

The world is black and white, only those who wish to do harm try to see it as grey.

To put it into terms you will understand, you are either a 1 or a 0 nothing else.


In my very first post I said that the drug could have an effect on FF incidences. I also tried to show you all that there are other possible ways that an FF incident can happen. The drug is not the only possible cause.

It would appear that my attempts have failed. You condem the use of drugs for pilots, yet how many of you take narcotics? Sounds a bit hipocritical to me.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Frosty, are you saying that for the past two pages that we have agreed that the drug could have a possible effect on FF incidents? What in the world have you been arguing with me about? I said that the drug could have some to blame, but I have also strived to show that there are other reasons that a FF incidnet can happen. These reasons have fallen on deaf ears though.I think that's what's been confusing for everyone... you've been vehemently arguing that it's not the drugs the whole time, that its' not all because of the drugs...

and we've not been arguing that it is, but it's not stopped ya getting really quite distressed. we are worried it could be a factor, it certainly seems like a dreadful idea as i'm sure many who've driven on amphetamines will testify!

As to things not being black and white - you're in the army and you should know better than any of us.

It's wrong for me to kill.

But in war? Then it's not so clear - would someone who shot hitler still be damned for it? Would they have done a wrong thing?

You're devoutly christian - the first commandment is thou shalt not kill - surely considering your career it must be more starkly obvious to you than many of us that the boundaries inbetween right/wrong, black and white are distinctly blurred!

There is certainly a world of difference between a civilian using alcohol or weed and a military person with their hands on a machine capable of vast damage and mass loss of life buzzing their tits off on go-pills... the two are incomparable.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:The world is black and white, I agree entirely with Ray.

It's people, and our actions that are gray/grey.

Kinda like HoP actually.



HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:You are highly exagerating the effects of these pills.

I personaly view a distiction between murder and killing.

And you would only see the difference between a Soldier in the Army and a Marine if they stood in front of you.

For the last time, I have nothing to do with the US Army.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Ray quote:You are highly exagerating the effects of these pills. No!!!!, but I think there are some shades of grey slipping into your arguments, hey

quote:I personaly view a distiction between murder and killing.Ray, I believe in the teachings of Christ and follow the commandment that says thou shalt not kill. So do you, in your capacity as a US Marine in a war situation, murder people or kill people? Either way, its goes against the teachings of Christ, no matter what your military Chaplin says.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Charles:
The world is black and white, I agree entirely with Ray.

Yikes! I need to change my prescription, then. I see lots of colors.



Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Nah just lay off the catnip

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:I save catnip for my cats.

Raph


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Give it to your dog and watch what happens

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:or albatross.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:hehe

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Arrrr, khat-mint
That explains a lot hehheheh


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Stone:
Ray, I believe in the teachings of Christ and follow the commandment that says thou shalt not kill. So do you, in your capacity as a US Marine in a war situation, murder people or kill people? Either way, its goes against the teachings of Christ, no matter what your military Chaplin says. jumping right back on track and ignoring the catnip and the albatross.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:In my own belief (though it is cute how people like to try to use my own beliefs against me) I believe that there is a difference between murder and killing?

If you cant agree or understand that dont ask me to explain it, I am not going to defend myself against 40 people. Sorry get your kicks somewhere else.

Sorry you get tired of always being on defence just because yall dont agree with me or you dont like what my government does. You all look for the negitive that someone does, never for the positive. Hell you even find fault in Seasime Street!

You know sometimes I deserve what I get, but I aint gonna step into this one.


Personally I dont like the idea of military chaplans. I dont like them, because they are not allowed to preach one religion.

Before you say anything let me explain why I say this.

Most units and I can only speek for the Corps but most units have 1 or 2 chaplins. These people belong to the higher headquarters. So those two Chaplins cover about 400-500 personel. There is no way that they can be fair to all the personel if they preach only one religion.

They may have times when a Wicca Marine has to see a chaplan and it is a Catholic chaplin.

It doesnt matter that the Chaplin is Catholic he has to support the Marine with that Marine's sence of morals despite his own beliefs.

I personally believe that as a Christian one should share their faith. He cant do that, without violating that Marine's rights. This causes conflict in my own heart and mind. I cant really explain this nor do I even imagine that you would understand. If you do cool... if you dont, ohh well.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:ray - no-one is trying to use your beliefs against you here dude

the fact is, you said the world is black and white and then stone pointed out a major grey area in your world view.

"thou shalt not kill" - that statement applies in a world that is black and white.

"there is a difference between murder and killing" - that statement applies in a world with many shades of grey.

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
The world is black and white, only those who wish to do harm try to see it as grey. maybe you explained yourself sufficiently here though - i would challenge anyone to define killing or murder as actions that do not cause harm so i guess you have already admitted that in this case, you see the world as grey...?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

If you dont understand, sit down and think about it, dont expect me to justify myself to you.

quote: ray - no-one is trying to use your beliefs against you here dude It may or may not have been his intent, but he did it none the less.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:If you dont understand, sit down and think about it, dont expect me to justify myself to you.So much for the 'discussion' group

I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Frequently it goes from descussion to Everyone Against Raymund.

That is just something that I am going to try to avoid from now on.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Frequently it goes from descussion to Everyone Against Raymund.

That is just something that I am going to try to avoid from now on. This might just be "Raymond is obviously wrong and everyone else can see it"

is possible yer not right sometimes or indeed that at least everyone else has a point worth considering and not ignoring.


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:It is also possible that my views are just differnt from others and that right and wrong have nothing to do with it.

Frosty, you really know nothing about me man. You have seen me on a few topics that I feel very strong about. You cant be expected to know me, so please dont think I am saying this in a condencending tone.


What I am right or wrong about doesnt matter, opinions are a right for everyone, perhaps you should just understand that mine and yours differ on some topics and get over it.


I have made my peace with you, if you wish to continue the pissing contest go right ahead it can only make you look bad.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:quote:What I am right or wrong about doesnt matter, opinions are a right for everyone, perhaps you should just understand that mine and yours differ on some topics and get over it.we DO though...

challenge seems to be getting you to consider anyone else's, or indeed even to question your own beliefs.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Why do I have to question mine, why dont you question yours for a change?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:we do all the time, that's why we post on here even when we have conflicting views

we question each other, go away and think about it and maybe change our position

seen some people on here completely change their opinions after reading what other people have had to say, seem plenty of people learn new things and grateful of it and some very interesting points of information for everyone to read

tis the way it works.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:And you think that I havnt changed due to past discussions? You've been here 5 minutes man you think you know me? Please!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
To answer your question, I view the world as black and white, right and wrong. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

If you dont understand, sit down and think about it, dont expect me to justify myself to you. i don't understand ray.
so i sat down and thought about it like you said.
and i just came up with the same question.

compare the bible's "thou shalt not kill" with your "killing is not wrong" and i see a huge conflict.
for someone that takes the word of the bible as the word of god i fail again to see how you do not consider this as an example of you yourself (to paraphrase you here if i may) 'making the world grey in order that they may cause harm'.

this may not be the best place to discuss this (we've been here before dude ).
i think my pm box has space now if you'd like to send me what you mentioned you'd started preparing last time we talked about this.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Coleman, I believe the Commandment is Do not Murder. If you believe it is something differnt, thats for you to decide. Why dont you stop trying to turn everything I say against me?

Like I said before, I'm not going to justify myself to yall anymore. I have repeatedly lain my life down like an open book and gotten nothing but ridicule for my religion, my job, my family, my very life and I will not subject myself to it further.

[ 05. September 2003, 03:18: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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