• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Chat > Feminist Movement Discussion Con't

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:In the Feminist Fire Shows thread it was requested that people not debate the whole movement but instead help her figure out a presentation. Of course, it did not work out this way and the thread became way off track, so I am starting this thread for that discussion to continue without fettering the help Divi requested.

So far the spelling of Wymyn as such has been up for discussion, including the derrivitived of the original spelling of Women in the Christian somantic: meaning "Of the Man" because Eve was created from Adam's Rib
and of the derrivitive: meaning "Man With the Womb"
And from the thought to be of Celt origin: the term "Man" was extrapolated from "Woman", not the other way around.

This lead to a discussion of, what does the spelling really signify in the terms of the Feminist movement? And then does it gain less respect because of such obvious "anti-male" redderick. Are there parts of the feminist movement that are just as Chauvenistic as some men can be? Are the anti-male feminists just as bad as oppressive men? Do these solve anything.

The question of sensuality and sexuality in the feminist movement also came up, and shouldn't it be about embracing and celebrating being a woman, curves and all, and not hiding from it? Isn't that sensuality part of humanity instead of being anti-feministic?

So, these were some of the topics touched I believe. Please feel free to continue, or add, to these!
Cheers!
Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete Topic

Matthew B-M


Matthew B-M

Lemon-Aware Devilstick-wielding Operative
Location: East London Wilds

Total posts: 605
Posted:divi: I'm afraid that all of what you've posted so far has shown naivete and ignorance. You're saying I'm missing your message, but your message is confused and unclear. I have been picking holes in what you've said, because this is what debate is about, and because I think you should clarify what you're expressing, so that people can make more sensible decisions on whether to agree with you.

I've now come to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about, and that despite the "I have more life experience than people twice my age" type comments, you're not responding to reasoned arguments with anything other than "don't pick my posts apart, read what I meant to write not what I actually wrote". I don't consider that to be "critical thought".

In response to your "wymyn don't lie", I think I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, that even if your words are taken in context, there have been court cases which were turned round from a sexual harassment charge/rape charge towards the male to a perversion of the course of justice charge towards the female. (same pair of people). This doesn't tally with what you said. The way my ex (ab)used me (mentally rather than physically) is, possibly not as bad as physical abuse, but as I've seen, it can be equally perpetrated by both sexes.

Since you don't appear to believe in equality, then I can only say, once more, that I think you are misguided, naive, and that your cause will, rather than solving problems entirely, solve some to cause more. I don't see that as being a good outcome for society.

A final point: if you don't want to argue about semantics, can I suggest that you not rely on semantics to constantly remind us of your various points, eg your deliberate misspellings, your use of the word "guy" in place of putting someone's name. All I can say is good luck in converting other people to your cause, you started off with me feeling relatively indifferent, and now I'm spending time ranting offline about people who claim to be feminists and aren't, and twist things to make their various points. Well done.


Luv 'n' Lemons
purity :: clarity :: balance

Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:Dio, I thought that your post was refreshing to read. I felt like you were getting to the substance of things.

In terms of mis-writing what I meant to say, please acknowledge that I did try to clear things up in later posts. And I want to re-iterate that I'm anti-patriarchy and not anti-man. The only male whom I have shown an animosity towards is the one who perpetrated an assault against me. I love boyz and all their glory!

The "wymyn don't lie", like I said above, I was referring specifically to sexual assault. I drew that conclusion from my experience personally, and was not intending to generalize every case of sexual assault, and was DEFINATELY not trying to imply that wymyn are incapable of lying (believe me, I've had the shit end of the stick with wymyn before). But reporting a sexual assault is an extremely trying process, and I don't think I know a single womyn who would endure that type of public scrutiny if she didn't mean what she was saying. Yes, there have been cases where a womyn was untruthful about sexual assault, but these are few and far between. They are also sensationalized and overblown in the media to make it look like an occurence that is more common than it really is (it is estimated that less than 2% of sexual assault reports are false, and this estimate is based on the number of cases where the police choose not to proceed with the investigation. The vast majority of these cases never even make it to the courtroom to be decided upon). In fact, it was only abolished some 20 years ago in Canada that the judge would instruct the jury to be skeptical of the testimony of an alleged (f@#! I hate that word) survivor. In fact, some judges still do it. There is NO OTHER criminal proceeding in Canada that would allow for this type of degradation of a witness. This goes to show the pervasiveness of the "all women lie" myth. Hence why I was so aggressive in attacking it.

And the "guy" comment was actually a term of endearment. I was smiling when I typed it.

About having personal life experience.. I don't necessarily want to get into it right now, nor build my ego... but just take my word for it that I do have quite a bit (if you're that interested, send me a private message).
I don't know if I've expressed it this way already, but I am anti-oppression. This means that I fight adultism as well (and as I age, it gets admittedly harder to not internalize the discrimination). So Dio, I was basically calling you on your (assumingly) subliminal discrimination.

So, down to the nitty-gritty video game debate. I personally think that if you're going to have a video game which encompasses violence, you should have the representation of wymyn in there (gawd, I know that I'm making people cringe now every time i write that word! ).
I think my major beef is when wymyn are skimpily clothed, and are weaker than the male characters.
I can really appreciate a video game like Tekken Tag 3 (hehe one of my favorites) where the "unknown" character is fierce and empowered by the spirit of a wolf.
Personally, I find it discouraging when I sit down to a video game to find that there are no female characters from which to choose (I'll throw in a qualifier (these are getting exhausting): I don't only choose female characters to play). Having the representation of wymyn in video games simply allows people more choice.

On the perspective of the violence/anti-violence debate, I don't think that any one factor (such as films or video games) has the power to make anyone violent on its own. I see that it's either a larger combination of influences or an inability to distinguish fantasy from reality. I don't think that having female characters in a video game is inherently anti-womyn. She can kick ass back!
Though I identify as being nonviolent, I admit to having urges as well, and video games are definately a good aggression sink.
So are mosh pits... I love the consensual aggression (read:small scale violence) that happens Ya gotta find an outlet somewhere!

Later days, y'all!


Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:I just wanted to throw something in; you may have noticed that the vast majority of my statistics are canadian. I recognize that this is a very western method of going about the discussion, and apologize for the limited scope that I am providing.
Most of my books are canadian-made, and the statistics, being localized, are the most accurate ones that I can use in discussion. (I know that isn't an excuse.)
Challenging my own view of the world constantly (and getting only slightly worn down by it),
divi


Delete

Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:be cool matt

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:1. I am asking everyone to calm down a little, and after typing do not immediately hit send but sit back chill, re-read and check your tone. The disclaimers are doing little to diffuse attitudes here.

Now, I am a single mom, my son was born of a 3 year seriously abusive relationship, that I pulled myself out of. I have been raped a couple times. I am in a career field where men outnumber women roughly 20 to 1, and that is including crew and assistants. Men in the field can be jerks, not all the time but can be. It is a boys club and they are afraid of competition no matter who it comes from, and they know that most of these arts will be better received if a woman does them, based on aesthetic appeal. Fine. It is also full of alot of 70 yo guys and their line of thinking hasn't changed in decades, it isn't going to start now. I can handle that. But you know what I see more commonly?

Women are worse than men. Women will compete and hold each other down. Women will say to me "Good for you for doing that. Serves men right, we women can do anything!" Ummmmm, not even close, I don't see other women out there potentially shoving a dagger through thier hand. Who gave women the right to ride on the coat tails of the successes of other women based on gender alone?

Women catcall me in ways that are far, far worse and more demeaning than men out of jealousy. Men will yell "Hey baby I have something to put in your mouth." It is simple, stupid, easy to turn into a joke and is not offensive at all. He is giving me a compliment of a sort, and usually drunkenly, making it easier for me to deal with. Last week a women called me a witch based on my career choice in performing obscure arts. The men were cool about it, the women were absolute *itches and would look at me and whisper and such as well. Try to do well at something on your own, and see what happens. I don't deserve to get called a whore, a cow, a witch, a *itch, and those are some of the mild ones, while I am working, but I do. I don't deserve to be in the middle of a fire routine and have some girl threaten to kick my arse...but I get that more than a bit (actually, that one makes me laugh). If you will recall, historically speaking, any of the women who rose up did not do so with the support of the "sista's" but then other women were quick to jump in and cry rally when she succeeded (Many of the Female Authors come to mind for this especially, using "George Elliot" as a starting point for the female author movement).

Also while we are speaking historically, Astar the Bless you thing is one of the myths btw, (there are many that surround sneezing) not fact...as are most things with language. There are alot of words that have changed with the times and it was seen as socially acceptible...for example: Virgin is not what it used to mean. Gay has changed drastically in the past 40 years. Hell, read through Shakespeare, Homer and Chaucer and see how meanings and spellings have changed. Or if you want to get into it, look no further in history than to the Victorian Era, Hawthorne, Poe, Dickens and it will become obvious that language changes drastically. So the use of the term Women based on a historic context, or any part of language preservation based on that, really does not add up to the trends in speech at all.
However, I do think that changing popularized spelling does not make people stop and think at all, especially men. It can be irritating, annoying and if a person is going to think anything it is that the user is an over the top feminist or else simply illiterate and spelling as it sounds. For me it is reminiscent of decoding raver-ese. It is also not subtle. If you want evidence of that, then simply look at the feminist fire thread and see how quickly things flared up once that came into strong use. Language is something that is protected even as it grows, and sometimes changing things is concidered just as aggressive as if you had been sitting outside yelling with a picket sign. It is not as subtle an urge to thought as you might think.

And the idea of 3rd wave feminism where women can do what they want and express themselves...first of all, this is not isolated to the female movement at all. ***People*** are doing this, all ages, races, colors, religions. People are standing up for what they believe in and for who they want to be despite persecution. And this trend has been building and going on for centuries. In the last century alone look at the 20's..sexual and artistic freedom for women, the 60's and really, after the 60's it just failed to let up. As far as the whole sexual freedom, we had it and didn't care so the church stepped back in and gained hold yet again. What should be fought there is the religious ideals that took it away. Instead it has become this huge social strike..and with everyone "making a statement" the cacophany is so blinding/deafening that no one is getting heard. People would do better to just live as they want to live and rise to the struggles as they go instead of making such big deals out of everything and blaming someone else for holding them back.

Next is the sexual assault/rape debate. Let me point out that men do not need to have their penis involve to be raped, and it does not need to be a woman doing it. I will not throw out arbitrary statistics however the fact that sexual abuse and physical violence is twice as common and ten times worse in the gay community says alot here. And the fact that women have a more difficult time raping a man does not mean that it can not be done. Sometimes the mental/emotional trauma of real harrassment (not catcalls on the street) can be far worse than of physical rape. Ever see Disclosure? It was a media response to the fact that sexual harrassment charges for men towards women are on the incline. It is very much a two way street, and women can have the power and the upperhand just as easily as men.

I won't even get into objectification because this is where I get really opinionated. I am just going to leave an example here. I went to a huge bellydance convention/gathering, a few weeks ago. Hundreds upon hundreds of lovely female bellydancers got up on the stage in skin tight, revealing, sumptuous costumes and shimmied their way around, some in flirty and suggestive ways. There were tonnes of men in the audience and vending. They cheered, they zagarheeted, they opa-ed, they appreciated the dancers and it showed. And if a single one of them tried to treat us like strippers, he would have had his arse kicked. Now only about 5 male dancers took the stage. One of them was breathtakingly exquisite in dance, form, charisma...he really had me awed. Want to know what happened? Women ran up to the stage trying to get him to come over to put money in his harem pants. They shook their boobs at him. They cat called him worse than any man I have heard. They treated him as if he were in a g-string and not dancing with flawless technique a very artful, difficult dance. He wasn't up there wiggling and flinging it around and yet he was treated by the same female bellydancers who would have outraged if a man did that to them as if he was a stripper. I was enraged and disgusted.

As for the connection between porn and sexual based violence, that is a myth. This applies to the violence and media debate, as well. Studies tend to prove what they want. The few which have been done unbiasedly are still in progress because they need to follow these children until they grow to adults for real proof. So far though, I let my child see limited amounts of violence (hard to avoid really). We discuss it, he plays "army" and in play or artistic presentation helps him work out his personal aggressions. I would rather have him do that than bottle and explode. When he is a teen I would rather he watch porn and have some "ice cream" (old hop-ism, PM me if you do not understand) than take it out on a girl. It's not all about exposure to media but how it is handled at home, the individual psyche..a multitude of elements really. Zero tolerance has gone entirely too far and I say this both as a parent and as a women.

In the end to me feminism is a waste of time and energy, just like any other form of biasedness and bigotry. It had it's place in the 20's and in the 60's...for certain. It had it's place in giving us rights, and so did activism for minorities of all kinds. I think now that it has all gone too far to where it is more habitual than truly about equality. We have the chance at equality, but just like with men, it must be earned. It can be in this day and age, when the laws are changed but some of the ideals are not with certain groups or people, the absolute best statement to make as a woman, as a person (since there are men fighting in the traditional female world as well) is to do what you want. To make an impact by succeeding in what you want to do, regardless of whether it is female or male dominated. It tends to make a more powerful statement to doubters than to stand up on a soapbox. Success in my chosen field is my feminist statement, possibly paving a smoother road if any woman wants to follow. And if not, it doesn't matter, I did what I wanted anyway...

This is all just my opinion btw. It does not reflect the beliefs of anyone else who works here at HoP. My beliefs have developed from my personal experiences and observations over the past 30 years. Thanks.
P~

[ 11. November 2003, 04:20: Message edited by: Pele ]


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:quote: My beliefs have developed from my personal experiences and observations over the past 30 years. You're 30?! No way, I had you pinned at not a day beyond 24!

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Dio:
You're 30?! No way, I had you pinned at not a day beyond 24! *blush* Yeah well....it's all the fuel, soot and smoke...keeps me well preserved! Did ya see the photo's I sent Dantana?
I turned 30 just a couple short weeks ago on Oct 16th...and I am really happy about it, and your comment made me even happier! Thanks!


**Sorry for the Hijack! We now return you to your regularly schedule thread**


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Wow this thread really grew where I left off.

eh im sort of with pele and sort of with divi and sort of with dio here, I can't be bothered arugeing anymore because everyone has said what I would have said.

Also as far as sexism in the career goes I found out something interesting todaytoday about 6 girls in my school (it's an adult high school aimed at helping people find an alternative and flexible way to get their high school degrees, it's basily like a two room school house with two teachers who are increadibly talented and dedicated who teach "everything" to a handfull of people)

All of them wanted to be LPNS (licensed practical nurses, they are kind of 'bellow' "registered nurses" that you see in hospitals most often, they are somewheres bellow a RN and an orderly in terms of education/qualification. The province here is being cheap and they are changeing the LPN requirements around a bit basicly so the entry requirements as far as completed courses and grades is identical to the entry requirements for the RN program, which is fairly high as far as university entry requirements go. So these 6 girls who don't have chemistry 12, physics 12 and math 12 and the required marks were given a sort of pardon because they changed the entry requirements so quick that it's not far that they get excluded and have to go back and learn heavy high school science courses. I am actually in the exact same boat of them only im a guy. They made no exception for me. So now I need to give up my dream of becoming a nurse, something I was getting into genuinly because I know I can be good at it. Atleast two of these girls were only becoming nurses because they basicly calculated the tuition of becoming certified and compared it to the salary and decided it would be a good career.

Oh yeah and girls do lie about sexual assault. Ive had 3 girls lie to me, two of them did it because they had some serious psychological issues (one was manic depressive, the other one is just increadibly insecure and lives in a world of lies she tells herself and others)

the other one was raped but can hardly remember it and it was comeing back to her in relapses and she produced a fake story about a rape that never occured trying to cope with it.

Generally I really don't think girls will lie about rape unless there is a good reason (be that another rape, or some other very serious problems) and I don't think theres really that many girls out there so evil they would sacrifice and risk so much that they would actually accuse a person 'real' person of a rape that never happened and then tell all kinds of people includeing cops and family. I definatly think there is a lot of people in prison for rapes they didn't do though, and probably a few in prison for rapes that didn't even happen. I don't think they are victims of evil plotting women for the most part but maybe victims of a machine like legal system, political system, educational system and society that's out of control.

I think a lot of things people are seeing as deliberate aren't, but are something much harder to define which really scares me a lot more then deliberate actions, because it's a hell of a lot harder to combat.


Delete

Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Divi: This is purely out of curisosity and not at all meant to be antagonistic - but how do you feel about women exploiting their femininity?
Whether this be wearing a short skirt to an interview, batting their eyelids to get a discount or thrusting their chest out to get faster service at a bar?

Do you think/accept that there are set differences between the two sexes that can never be erased? For example, it is generally accepted, perhaps even proven, that men "on the whole" are physically stronger than women, thus they get the more physical jobs? Or are you of the opinion that a woman could do a builders job equally well as a man?

Again, this is meant in a curious manner, not a challenging one


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Delete

arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:covets the day when pele will stuff dollars in his pants while whooping it up as he does shimmy circles in front of her drunk, maniacal slobbering, screaming freinds
just had to pop in with that


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

zwitterion
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

zwitterion

member
Location: Iowa, USA

Total posts: 52
Posted:viva Pele! and Dio! and all the others who've offered thoughtful, well supported responses and dragged the thread back from the oblivion of angst and zealotry into the lands of interesting discussion. you people rule.

Delete

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Wow... I'm hesitant to post on this thread because there are so many points and hot topics being discussed.

I can, and will, only speak from my own small experiences in my own small world.

"feminism (fm-nzm) n.
Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. The movement organized around this belief."

Firstly, that's what feminism is.

Bah... I had a second but it pissed me off too much.... I'm bowing out of this coversation.

I guess I'm amazed that many of you have been so sheilded by the incredible inequities of the sexes. Consider yourselves lucky.

{Runs off to think happy thoughts}


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

KristieEB


member
Location: Oakland, CA

Total posts: 108
Posted:Divi, Dio, Astar, Pele ... incredible posts, all of you. intelligent and coming from your own perspectives and amazingly i agree with all of you totally ... no matter how contradictory that may sound. everyone's experiences are valid. there are wrongs in the world that will be perpetuated against you, no matter your sex and because of your sex.

love each other and vow to never treat someone else with that sort of disregard. it is hard! i hold lust in my heart for boys but try not to let that get in my way of treating them like a human being first! *lol*

and Pele, as a 35yo woman i have to tell you: it only gets better. i have had more fun and love and friends in the last several years than in the entire rest of my life put together. i love my 30's!


Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:Astar, I'm sorry to hear about you being the subject of discrimination. When I read your post, I actually felt discouraged... sometimes people say things that make me realize the immensity of oppression, and you said one of those things.
Although I do recognize and struggle against oppression in my day-to-day life, I admittedly tend to make my struggle seem singular (For example, I am against state oppression, women's oppression, and all animal oppression. Phrased differently, I am an anarcha-feminist animal liberationist). This makes my struggle seem manageable and allows me to continue in my activist work.
The biggest problem with this perspective is that I am easily blinded from acknowledging the immensity of oppression. My heart broke when I read Astar's post because we are not as far as I would like to be. I feel like the struggle is too large, and it paralyzes me.
Why can't the world just get along tomorrow?

And Durbs, about wymyn taking advantage of patriarchal mindsets and stereotypes...
I think that anything that doesn't challenge patriarchy is nonfeminist. Therefore, a womyn who uses sex appeal to gain employment is acting wrongly. She is allowing herself to perpetuate the mindsets of the employer.
(As an aside, do you realize that you assumed that the employer would be male? Just an observation..)

Next, the difference/equality debate.
Always a kicker...
I think that sex divides are fluid. This perspective comes from being close to many trans- people and from observing the troubling of many sex role stereotypes.
I am a competitive downhill skier, and I cannot beat your average male downhill racer in the same "carded" category (based on the number of races raced and placement in those races).
On the other side of that coin, I am also a forest firefighter, and yes I can do that just as well as (if not better than) your average male.
It is true that men can build muscle mass quicker and easier than wymyn, but I don't think that this should be the essence of the equality/difference debate.
If I were to train myself as a bodybuilder, I would be able to lift the same amount as many men in the same weight category.
I think that it's the size of the drive that determines a person's ability to do heavy labour.

But at the same time, does the ability to do heavy labour dictate anything in the end?
To me, this does not say that men are meant to be "the providers", or anything of the sort. We (in middle-class North America) generally do not depend on our labour for our immediate survival. And strength does not necessarily mean dominance from a violence perspective either (think: the martial art of akido, or the Viet Nam war).

Very often, people boil down the equality debate to "but men are stronger". I once ascribed to this myself. Why is it that this perspective is so pervasive? Any insight?

Later days!

[ 12. November 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: divi ]


Delete

zwitterion
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

zwitterion

member
Location: Iowa, USA

Total posts: 52
Posted:just on the point of physical gender differences, this was an issue (I THINK this is the issue) that had me irritated at the whole modern feminist movement as a kid actually - I had a fervid feminist school teacher that refused to allow that there were differences in male and female physiology, and that these differences could possibly cause differing abilities or behavioural propensities between the sexes. I was dumbfounded that she would be so adamant in the face of so much research, if not simple human observation. We had arguments aplenty and she made life pretty unpleasant for me but that's beside the point -

I'm since well over it, having left most of my blindingly polarised opinions behind along with adolescence and made some intelligent friends who explained to me what feminism was really about, and i reconciled myself with its basis at least... but it still amazes me that some people refuse to allow that there might be more differences between the sexes than simple muscle mass. It's clear to anyone with two eyes in their head that the male and female body are built differently, and even if it weren't for the masses of behavioural and neurological research that have gone into this subject, you'd think it a fairly logical conclusion that a different physical make-up would extend to the biochemistry and neurology and produce different behaviour, skills and propensities. Obviously common-sense says that not EVERY woman is going to have better peripheral vision (for instance) than EVERY man, but chances are pretty good that for any given couple this will be the case.

Perhaps for the first time in our cultural memory, we're at a point where we can look at gender definitions free of the strictures of outmoded and often ignorant traditional values; we have reams of knowledge in the fields of psychology, neurology and behavioural sciences to help us form sensible and above all USEFUL gender definitions, but now it seems we not only have to combat the incumbent traditionalists to have these ideas brought forth - we're warring with equally small-minded people who're waving the flag of political activism.

If anyone out there DOES hold that there are not necessarily any differences between men and women and have a rational argument for why, PLEASE post it, cos as it is, I don't understand it - or rather, I think do and I think it's pretty sad. It's archetypal of the way people latch on to and pervert ideas for their own uses.

Ideologies are only worth as much as those espousing them and the opressed can be just as guilty of small-mindedness as the oppressor - being a victim doesn't make you right. Anger and pain don't justify anything, let alone the inspiration of more anger. Somehow good causes always seem to be taken over by people who use them as justification for their own angst - it makes a mockery of the very idea of activism, and it seems a depressingly fixed feature of human nature. So is it any wonder that so many of us find it difficult to stomach a cause?


Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:zwitter, my argument is simply that physical differences should not dictate ascribed gender roles to men and wymyn.

to your point on physical differences: admittedly, i am not a behavioural neuroscientist, but i understand that the major neurological difference between wymyn and men lies in a single node in the base of the brain (any verification on this? i'll look it up and get back to people).
physical bodies are built differently. people who are genetically female (XX) are generally bottom heavy while men (XY) are generally top heavy, for example. the problem lays not in these sex variations, but in the fact that these variations have been constructed in the western psyche to equate with the 'naturalness' of male superiority, or of certain gendered behaviours (ie. female passivity and male aggressiveness. qualifier: testosterone is a factor, but studies to date have been unable to prove the extent of its influence, so i cannot comment).

and don't forget that sex is fluid. there is a proportion of the population that has chromosomes other than XX or XY (although this poplulation is relatively small, it is still much larger than poeople would anticipate; it is approximately 1 in every 500 humins born). this statistic has been pivotal in my understanding of sex relations. if sex is so non-concrete, then why are gender/sex divides?

don't be so hostile, zwitter. this thread seems to be getting friendlier with each successive post (myself included )

Later days!


Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:oh, and my peripheral vision sucks.

Delete

Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Sorry to be picky Divi but where did Durbs say that the employer was male? Maybe it's not him who is making the assumtions....

Anyway, what I was actually gonna write about is what was the comment about peripheral vision? Is that a female thing or a Divi thing? It must be a pain in the ass not having good peripheral vision! I lost mine for a while (well I actually went 90% blind and it slowly came back through the course of the day) when I had a very unprofessional removal of a tooth and went into severe shock and realised then just how much I used it day to day.

Nice to see this thread chilling out a little. Of course guilty of it myself (as most people who have posted here are!) debate is always far nicer than argument!


Let's relight this forum ubblove

Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:around the "wearing a short skirt to an interview" comment, my immediate image was that the womyn who is wearing the short skirt in order to gain employment through sex appeal is assuming the employer is male. so when people say that wymyn wear short skirts to interviews in order to get jobs based on sex appeal, they are making the same assumption.
meh, like i said, it was the image called to my mind, and it could very well be a divi thing.

around peripheral vision, i had mine tested at a science centre, and i am well below average. it doesn't bother me; i never had it to begin with, so i don't know what having a better periphery might be like.
i've heard that wayne gretzky is such a good hockey player because of his superb peripheral vision... that's really very much an aside, but i figured i'd mention it anyway.

later, g's


Delete

Paddy


back from the dead...sort of
Location: 4341'N 7938'W

Total posts: 884
Posted:Don't have time to add my own arguments to the debate, but I'll just pop in quickly and let everyone know that there are huge differences in the brains of men and women- not just one node.

Processing in women in far more bilateral (ie occur simultaneously in both hemispheres) while men is unilateral (concentrated in one side at a time). That's why men have more trouble recovering after strokes.

There are likely loads more, but that is the one major difference and it's certainly enough to show there are big difference between male and female brains.

Not sure how transgendered/transidentified people fit into the equation.


Delete

zwitterion
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

zwitterion

member
Location: Iowa, USA

Total posts: 52
Posted:It's funny that my previous post came out "heated" cause i wasn't feeling particularly agnsty when writing it. Anyway sorry i was just trying to make a point.

Paddy is right the differences in brain structure as defined by sex are enormous; they start appearing within the first few months of foetal development, largely dictated by concentrations of male or female hormones that the foetus is exposed to, and get solidified and more defined through puberty. Naturally this is an entirely organic process and the extent of genderisation of a man's neurology for instance can be anywhere from extremely male to, for all intents and purposes, entirely female. That's pretty rare tho. As an interesting aside, "female" brains do not necessarily denote homosexuality, some researchers have tried to draw a link there but it's shaky at best.

The difference between female mental functioning and male mental functioning is pronounced tho, for any given activity (speech for instance) females will employ many different neural areas, while males brains use highly specialised and isolated neural centers that generally don't "talk" to each other. The effects cover every area of behaviour you can think of, you've probably heard of some of these; females on average show around a third to a quarter the attention span of males, but are able to focus on around five individual simultaneous tasks to the average male's one. Female hearing and peripheral vision are considerably more accute, and male night vision and spacial perception is better. In verbal conversation, males tend to be literal and sparing in their use of words, employing a far wider vocabulary and specific words to communicate ideas, whereas females tend to use a wide array of tonalities, body language and expressions along with more words (from a smaller range) to communicate.

I'd give an example of a good application of this in business but frankly i'm beginning to find the length of my posts a bit embarrassing so i'll stop now. If anyone's interested tho, there is tonnes of reading out there on the subject, I'd recommend "Brainsex" by Anne Moir and David Jessel as a good matter of fact book without too much over-interpretation in it.


Delete

Astar


member
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.

Total posts: 1591
Posted:Ive read a bit of shakey research about brain structures changeing themselves a bit when hormones in the body change (with hormone therapy)

Also testosterone definatly has an impact on aggression. But aggression!=violence. And there are other factors involving aggression which are mainly psychological. It's hard to attribute what amount of hormones/body chemistry effect aggresion and what amount is just psychology, Very much like trying to figure out the nature of depression.

Also I got some more information on the whole nurseing thing that seems like discrimination agaisnt me. The more I think about it the more I think I just made a very poor impression the one time I talked to the woman who decides who enters and leaves the program, as It was unexpected that I would be meeting with her and I had very dirty grungey clothes on, unkept hair, was overtired from not sleeping the previous night and was in the depths of a major depression.

Also the reason I think gender is largely a social construct is because I have a half baked theory that's only supported by some shakey research and observations that a lot of the scientifically recorded, averaged numbers that suggest these "facts" about the diffrence between the sexes are still being done on women and men who still live in a gender polarized society. And I also believe external factors have a lot more in brain development and structure and chemistry and overall bio chemistry (which is all regulated largely by the brain, and effects all aspects of our body) (I think it can even effect structure sometimes after it is finished developing because it doesn't really stop it's development but just slows down)

If I am right theres a whole bunch of hormones they don't even really understand exactly what their purpose is, yet exactly understand all the purposes of the ones they "do" understand.

PS-watch mike come in here with his fancy pants medical education and destroy my ramblings based on poor ass speculation and lazy self-education


Delete

Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Paddy:
Not sure how transgendered/transidentified people fit into the equation. I saw a tv program a while back that explained it....They sliced some brains into micro thin peices (horizontally) and found about 7 teeny weeny areas where a section (perhaps a node? I'm not good on terminology) was slightly enlarged in (male) transgendered brains and have now concluded that these enlarged areas confused the brain into identifying itself with it's fellow male counterparts...ie...the brain pretty much rejected the body's identity and felt feminine. I'm not sure what the outcome was for female transidentified people though as it was only about the male brain, perhaps that was the next show!



Let's relight this forum ubblove

Delete

Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:Gender study of primates mirrors human social norms

What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

Delete

Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Durbs:

Do you think/accept that there are set differences between the two sexes that can never be erased? For example, it is generally accepted, perhaps even proven, that men "on the whole" are physically stronger than women, thus they get the more physical jobs? Or are you of the opinion that a woman could do a builders job equally well as a man?The physical differences cannot be denied. However, more so than that, there are mental differences.

People say that gender is a social construct, but I say it is not, and I have good evidence to support my claim.

1) Talk to any transsexual. You will hear right away about how they never felt comfortable in their own bodies and knew right out that they were supposed to be the opposite gender.

2) Look at what happens to little boys who have botched circumcisions and get gender-reassignment surgery at birth. Then they are raised as girls. And what do they grow into? They grow into MEN.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:quote:Originally posted by arashi:
covets the day when pele will stuff dollars in his pants while whooping it up as he does shimmy circles in front of her drunk, maniacal slobbering, screaming freinds
For you arashi, I will make an exception!

I agree with Mike that it is not all physical. I also want to add it is not all mental either, some of it is environmental. When I went to middle school there was a boy a few grades ahead of me. His mom wanted a girl. She raised him as a girl. He acted like a girl, and eventually was picked on so badly that he left the school. He identified with what he was taught as well, this much I will say. The only thing I do know about him is he took a g.e.d. course and became an interior designer. I have no idea if he still acts more feminine.

If we teach our children to believe boys are stronger and girls are smarter ( ) they will believe it, and act accordingly. I am raising my son to believe anyone can do/be anything s/he wants, if they are willing to really work and fight for it. Sometimes that road (luckily) is easier than other times. Hard or easy, either way, I want him to believe it is possible because I want him to try. I think sometimes the emphasis we put on those physical differences as a society really acts as an unfair deterent. I agree that they exsist, but instead of saying "Oh, you can't do that" because 'men aren't nurturing enough to be the stay at home parent and a woman can't break concrete with the best of them' we should just let them believe they can. I think if we do that and they want it bad enough, whatever "it" is, they will find a way. I did


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

Delete

Stubbs


member
Location: Kingston

Total posts: 31
Posted:If you're one of those people who wanders into a discussion about feminism without actually understanding it... don't apologize, just do some reading.

Delete

divi


member
Location: Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 36
Posted:i think that astar articulated my argument when he said that research is inconclusive, as it is always influenced by the surrounding environment. under this circumstance of inevitable ignorance, we should focus on removing gender divides and oppressions between us.
who really cares about the biology of it all? it is inconclusive at best and skewed at worst. we should not allow this type of research dictate our view of the world, and should definately not allow it to construt certain things on this planet as being better than others.
pele is right when she says that people should have every opportunity to do what they want. however, different circumstances make this ideal better described than put into practice (such divides include class, race, sex, gender, etc.). people are treated differently based on their personal circumstances (and this is where our problem lays).
the way that i see it is: as a capable humin being, it is my responsibility to work towards the liberation of all things, and remove superficial oppositions between us. although this sounds ultra-idealist, i (as stated in a previous post) recognize the enormousness of it all. i like to believe, however, that every little bit counts.
later days!


Delete

zwitterion
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

zwitterion

member
Location: Iowa, USA

Total posts: 52
Posted:nah the research (that i've read of) has been anything but inconclusive. Any statistical analysis of a population is going to involve variation obviously. But saying "women generally have a higher body fat / muscle ration than men" does not force women into anything at all - it's a fact which could very well have useful applications. And if anyone wants to discuss the quality of said research then please at least mention specific studies, otherwise it's all just conjecture.

oh yeah, and for the record, in my earlier post where I was criticising certain types of activism, I hadn't intended it as a poke at divi. Sorry if anyone thought I did.


Delete

Page: 12