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Page: 123
mrFlibble
SILVER Member since Mar 2003

Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK

Total posts: 455
Posted:I was watching a news item on tv this morning talking about how the american government is spending millions getting teachers to encourage students to be abstinent until married.
I thought it would be a good topic for everyone's discussion

I think someone should spend millions teaching the opposite purely coz it would annoy the american government who i hate.


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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Anyone in authority trying to tell a load of teenagers what not to do is surely going to have the opposite effect?

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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dj_goose


dj_goose

Sunburnt Bournda Beach Bum
Location: A Melbourne boy through and th...

Total posts: 157
Posted:on that note.....

Look to the moon, look to the stars, and if you still can't find happyness...find a bar!!!

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:telling teenagers what to do is challenging [no offense out there - ill admit i prefered working stuff out myself!].

Especially when it something most of the population can do as much as they please . alcohol and smoking also falls into these catagories.

the idea was obviously suggested by some loser who dont get any, and is thus jealous of the rest of the population who knows how to have fun!


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:lol what a waste of money i mean really why go against nature. millions on contraception campaigns thats a good idea. i think its a really bad idea as if ppl wait till they are married have kids etc then all of a sudden have a mid life crisis cos they wonder what else is out there, i think its much better to have had the experiences and know what else is out there and be comfortable in your choice

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:i think the government should stop trying to rule teenagers lives. abstinence until marriage.....im a legal studies student so im big on the whole separation on the church and state. and this sounds very much like the two aspects have come a bit too close...
but i agree, if you tell them they can't, they will want to do it more.
governments sholud get out of these kinds of things - just cos the politicians cant get any!


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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ViciousVixen


member
Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA

Total posts: 103
Posted:Personally, I think this is evidence that the religious right is still able to affect government policies and procedures in a country where religion and government are supposed to be separate. No sane government would teach that abstinence only crap to anyone older than 14 these days. I really dislike our current Pres for his openly religious attitude (among 1000 other things) because he's supposed to be a neutral figure on religion, but instead he flaunts his beliefs. Keep that crap personal, where it belongs, especially if you're running this country.

My rant for the day.


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Jello


ambiguous
Location: Mpls, MN, USA

Total posts: 646
Posted:ViciousVixen and Rouge Dragon, right on. Our government is terribly religious, many of our laws and such wouldn't be able to stand if we were to truly seperate church and state.

One question though, is this whole abstinence thing that bad? I mean would it not be a good thing if people were to wait until they were more emotionally developed/stable until they had sex? Alot of people have sex when they're too young and that can be a rather damaging.


_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................

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frostypaw


Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent

Total posts: 643
Posted:What if you don't hold by marriage?

Some people don't want to marry.

Some people don't have the choice....

Restraint is sensible to ask for in these modern times of rampant STDs.... but abstinance is going too far don'tcha think?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Dirty Marmite Spider


Dirty Marmite Spider

Climbing up my leg
Location: England

Total posts: 141
Posted:I think one of the saddest things is that after years of consistently being proved wrong, authority figures still think that teenagers are listening to them.

Sex is natural, and teenagers naturally experiment. The only thing we should be worrying about is that they do it safely.


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Zej
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

Zej

member
Location: Washington, DC (Foggy Bottom/W...

Total posts: 34
Posted:As in international affairs student I have to bring up a few points.

Contraception programs are very very important in most Most Developed Countries (MDCs.) Look at certain nations and you see that the total fertility rates are above replacement levels of 2 children per couple, this causes overpopulation. China and India for example have had very very good state run contraception programs, good being a judgement on their successful reaching of the state's goals, not good on a moral basis. China's program is rather disturbing.

On the other hand look at nations like Canada and Spain where fertility levels are BELOW replacement, and you see why the government is subsidizing families who screw like rabbits and pop out a few kids. In those countries where the average is about 1.6 children per couple the population is starting to dwindle and there needs to be state intervention to prevent a small young population to have to support a huge senior citizen group in 25 years.

To say that contracaption and fertility programs are unwarranted by a nation is most definitly not true. MDC's across the board need to control their populations from a logistical point of view.

America is also a nation with a fertility rate above replacement, i think it's somewhere around 2.3 currently. But I have to agree that telling kids to not have sex is at best a pointless venture. At worst it is the religious rights invasion of personal choice and infringement against the seperation of church and state clauses. To be honest most of those attempts at teaching teens to be good little catholics, protestants, christians, etc., fail miserably. The ones who go to college normally crack. The ones who don't wind up not forcing it onto their children after learning a lot about the real world at school. It's a slowly dying trend. The only places it really stays true and will for a few more generations is in very secluded areas where people don't get exposed to pop cultures influence as heavily.

The things you learn in class . . . and on a totally random note about something i learned in class last week that has really been bugging me - Washington DC (my current home) is second in the AIDS rate only to Sub Saharan Africa.

Ugh.


~Zej

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:When I was doing my OB/GYN rotation, I saw the results of "abstinence." In three weeks on the obstretrics service, I watch no fewer than 10 women under 20 give birth who had been using "abstinence" as their primary method of birth control.

MYTH: "Abstinence is 100% effective."

FACT: When abstinence is held up to the same standards as other methods of birth control and STD prevention, it fares much worse. The reason is that numbers for effectiveness of other options such as "The Pill" or condoms take into effect misuse and noncompliance (failure to use). In fact, because compliance with abstinence is so poor, it is one of the worst forms of contraception available.

The American government claims that their approach is valid based on common sense claims that you obviously can't get pregnant if you aren't having sex. However, as usual, they aren't actually using facts in making their policy. Instead, they're thinking with their Bibles, as usual.

You can bet that I will put a LARGE bowl of condoms and lube in every room in my clinic once I'm practicing. And next to the bowl will be a stack of pamphlets with detailed instructions on use.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I wonder where Ray is?

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well since the "Just Say No" campaign of he 1980s completely eliminated drug use in America, I'm sure that this will fare just as well.

Funny how the government is putting money into this but is allowing large corporations to sell sex to kids.

Don't worry folks, my high school kids are gettin' way more premarital action than you got.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux

Total posts: 403
Posted:Freedom leads to responsibility,
responsibilty leads to awareness,
education not ignorance or avoidnce.

My children wil be brought up in the full knowledge of themselves and the fact that they are only a few steps from the savanah and jungle.

The wild is in our blood and only by realising and acknowledging this can each person achieve self control, not by having a Big Brother type government avoiding the issue by saying " only when you're grown up! not before!

It happened in my country for many decdes that the culture of sexual ignorance and fear was actively sponsored by both church and state, the skeletons are begining to come out of the closet now and they have already brought down one ruling party in our government.

The latest scandal to hit the news involves the abuse of minors by members of the clergy of which the government was at least partially aware . The compensation proces has just begun to move along and the esimates for the monetary recompense which may be given out have risen as high as 1.03 billion Euros. yes thats right 1.03 BILLION .

I hope that this type of insanity never has to occur in any other country in the world, we're going to suffer for it, you should learn from our mistakes, and not have to suffer as well.


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Kaji


Kaji

Quantum Theorist
Location: Vansterdam

Total posts: 564
Posted:To quote frostypaw in the "Bad news for fire fans" Thread

quote: The land of the free... It's amazing how strange things stick in your mind. My dad told me when I was little that the most dangerous thing in the world is to have a religious zelot in a possition of power. I agreed with him then. And I agree more strongly with him now. although a book that tells people (and they follow it with out common sense) how to think is not far below.
George Dubya is insane. I know he has said that he wishes to out law the practicing of paganism and witchcraft. And now he wishes to outlaw sex?

My advise to anyone who is not Christian Fundementalist Right wing psycopath, any one who wishes to have a choice of religion, anyone who doesn't want to see religion back in the schools, any one who wants to have sex on there terms not the governments, anyone who wants to do zippo tricks and play with there fire toys, anyone who wants to smoke a bowl and not be thrown in jail for it.

Come to Canada: Thats what we stand for. We won't destroy your culture and beliefs here. We'll enbrace them. So come to Canada We'll welcome you with open arms. I know Mike already has plans to get out of the states as soon as he's done school. Anyone care to join him?


In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Is this being "recomended" or reduced to a "Just Say No" policy again? It's one thing to teach all of the vital aspects of human sexuality and then recomend abstinence, it is quite another to reduce sexual education to a "Abstinence is the best policy"... uh... policy. Common sense dictates if you don't have sex, you don't get STDs or pregnant, and I think that is a GOOD thing to stress, but when taken to extremes it is debilitating to the child. I mean we're supposed to be teaching children to be able to make their own decisions, to "think critically" which is SUPPOSEDLY one of the biggest stressor points in our current educational system, and yet we want to handicap them by denying them adequate information to MAKE informed decisions?

I think the pill has some very good aspects, but I also look down on it because I don't quite agree with messing with any natural functions with man made drugs (Man made qualifier). Hormone's is powerfull stuff, that it is. Condoms have their own downsides as has been brought up in other threads before...

Even so though, no matter what is taught in school, we can not return to closet sexuality as we once operated. There are so many groups and sources of information, not to mention pop culture, etc. that even if sex was NOT taught in school, it would not be from a lack of possible sources that a student would be lacking in this area. It IS important from the standpoint of MAKING them learn the facts (Not necessarily opinions like this) so they can make informed decisions though.

Very good point with abstinence not having a good follower rate. It's great until you don't want to be abstinent anymore, but then you need to know how to do it safely. It has nothing to do with morality as some religious right may claim, but more about natural processes of biology. Abstinence is just a silly policy to try and enforce on others.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:HUH??

Mike, your saying that people who dont have sex, are still getting pregnent? Excluding the turkey baster method!

I dont understand that logic.

Should there be a warning on public access... CAUTION THE LACK OF SEX CAUSES PREGNENCY!!

I really dont get this?!?!


So Mike, a virgin who hasnt had a sperm cell near her since conception, can still get pregnent??? Is this what you are telling us?

HOW?? That blows my mind.


Is it wrong to wait untill your an adult, even if you're not married?

Frost, your post is by far the most offence thing I have ever read.


I know quite a few peole who have told me that they wish they would have waited, some were Christians, most wernt. Are they wrong? Are they puppets of a corrupt Gov.?

Abstinence isnt bad, encouraging kids to obstain isnt bad. You want the kids to make decisions based on well thought out information, not a head full of hormones.

You canadians, do you like paying for someone elses STD? I mean you pay high taxes so that you can have free medical right? I know that I dont like paying for someone elses mistake, why should money come out of my pocket becasue someone couldnt keep their pants up or skirts down?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

old hand
Location: New York City

Total posts: 899
Posted:quote:Originally posted by NYC:
Well since the "Just Say No" campaign of he 1980s completely eliminated drug use in America, I'm sure that this will fare just as well.
Heehee. Wasn't that Nancy Reagan's shining moment?

Raph


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DarkDevil


DarkDevil

member
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland.

Total posts: 233
Posted:I think the government teaching kids that "abstinence is good" is not the way to approach it... The kids, me and many of us included, need to be educated on the topic, and they should stress that it is up to us to make the right choice for ourselves.

I'd prefer to make the right choice, and be given the chance to make the wrong choice, than to have people on my back about it...


Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a trick, this is a stunt. The difference between a stunt and a trick is that a trick is something that tricks or fools the audience, a stunt is something that only an idiot would do -Ivan, Ash Circle, 10/04/03

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually the Just say no campaine did see a reduction in the use of minors using drugs. It didnt wipe out the problem, but it did slow things down. It failed because of the change of society. It happens, the US Gov. has yet to come up with a similer campaine that has positive enough results. Frankly I praise any person who turns down drug use, in any form.


Actually I agree that kids will do whatever it is that they want. We all know this, there is no sence in denying it. If the Gov. tought that abstinence is the only way to stay away from STDs and pregnancy 100% and that if you absolutly must have sex, then you should use some form of contraception. Teach em the truth, and let them find their own way.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kaji


Kaji

Quantum Theorist
Location: Vansterdam

Total posts: 564
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Frost, your post is by far the most offence thing I have ever read.Ray, I respect you as a person. But when it comes to political opinions I think we are mostly on opposite sides of the scale.

The truth is often the most offensive of all the possible answers.

Tell me what is more offensive:
A child asks
Q: Mommy/Daddy what will happen if I masturbate?

A: If you masturbate you will learn about your self sexually. It is nothing to be ashamed of, and it's a completly natural and pleasurable thing.

or

A: If you masturbate you will get hairy palms and your will go blind.

Education is the best policy. If people are educated and know the facts and choices there pro's and con's then they can make educated choices for themselves. Thats the best contraception out there.

By the way: China follows the if they doen't know we can make them do what ever we want policy for many educational things. I thought the US made a point of being the oposite of China?

So what is more offencive? the truth of a lie?


In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:quote:Originally posted by DarkDevil:
...and they should stress that it is up to us to make the right choice for ourselves.

I'd prefer to make the right choice, and be given the chance to make the wrong choice, than to have people on my back about it... Why do you think they should stress that it's up to us to make the right choice for ourselves?

What do you see the benefits of stressing the choice aspects as being?

I'm asking cos I think the thing to stress is the facts of the situation i.e. the possible consequences of sexual activity and I'm interested in what you see as being the benefits of stressing the choice aspects.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Deimos
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Deimos

Cinnamon Girl
Location: Hfx, NS, Canada

Total posts: 191
Posted:I'm not surprised that abstinence until marriage is being encouraged. I mean, with the sex ed we're already given I'm amazed teens have sex as it is! All they teach is how horribly wrong it is to have sex and all the nasty bad things that will come of it.
They already enforce a legal drinking age with sever penalties, so if that isn't working to keep teens from doing it, then how the hell do they think just telling teens it's a good idea to save yourself is going to work?


P*L*U*R

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Fitria


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 97
Posted:Hi all...I am not American but I thought I would put my little piece in as well.

I think that the government is wasting their money...everyone knows that if you tell a child/teenager not to do something then they are going to do it (not all mind you but a vast majority).

I agree that telling them of some of the risks involved, informing them what it is all about and then letting them then make their own mind up on what they want to do.

I do have to ask a question of Frost though:

Frost how the hell can anyone get pregnant from abstaining from sex?

That's all from me for now.

Ciao



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DarkDevil


DarkDevil

member
Location: St. John's, Newfoundland.

Total posts: 233
Posted:quote:Originally posted by onewheeldave:
Why do you think they should stress that it's up to us to make the right choice for ourselves?

What do you see the benefits of stressing the choice aspects as being?

I'm asking cos I think the thing to stress is the facts of the situation i.e. the possible consequences of sexual activity and I'm interested in what you see as being the benefits of stressing the choice aspects. I'm not saying don't stress the facts, you can stress both. But by stressing that it is up to them to make the right choice for themselves you gain their trust and respect.

If you tell kids not to have sex.. "Hi, i'm Don, and i'm here to tell you not to have sex. 'do not have sex'. Drive Safely" Although a few kids will love the speaker because that would be just funny. Very Few minds will be changed. Those who would have had sex regardless of the speaker would have sex, and those who wouldn't have, won't.

If you tell the kids not to have sex, and tell them the dangers, the results, the concequences they will listen, and you will not have a negitive impact, most of them will think about what you've said. but i believe your impact won't be as strong as it could be.

If you tellthe kids not to have sex, educate them on the dangers, results, and concequences, and tell them it is their choice, they will have something to think about, and they will have sex when they are ready. It is their choice, not their boy/girlfriends, friends, parents, siblings, teachers, principals, guestspeakers, televisions choice.

Hope this makes sense. In a nutshell, you give them the choice to make for themselves, but you arm them with the education to make the right choice instead of acting like a dictator.


Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a trick, this is a stunt. The difference between a stunt and a trick is that a trick is something that tricks or fools the audience, a stunt is something that only an idiot would do -Ivan, Ash Circle, 10/04/03

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Insanity


member
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia

Total posts: 22
Posted:I Kind of agree with Dark on this one... but I also have my own two cents that I feel needs to be added. First off, yes people should be encouraging teenagers to make the right choice for them, which in most cases may be abstinance, but also may not be. It all really depends on their situation. One of my cousins for example, was kicked out of her home at the age of 15, and had no where to go, she didn't live near me, and she ran away from her family, thinking that we all hated her, she then turned the only corner that she could think of, which was prostitution. Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying what she did was right, infact I don't agree with it at all. BUT I guess my real point is that people should be allowed to make mistakes, because mistakes are inevitable, also, without mistakes we'd all be a bunch of naieve buffoons without a clue. Though I believe in abstinance for the time being in regards to myself, it may not be the same with others. I believe that people should be more educated on the pros and cons of having pre-marital sex, note the PROS, and the CONS, not just the cons to try and scare teens out of it.
The whole moral issue that I have with all of this is that we are only taught of the Cons in the situation, no one ever brings up any of the pros, which clearly there must be, otherwise people just wouldn't do it. I feel that our educators are simply subjecting us to a load of crap about sex to scare us shitless so we keep the mentality that "Eewww (Insert opposite, or same as the case may be sex here) are dirty, or have cooties" or whatever you used to believe when you were in grade 3, but to a lesser extent. They stress to us that if you do choose to have sex, then you should be protected, which is a definate must. But I also feel that if you screw up and get pregnant, or impregnate someone, then it's your own damn fault, and stuff, but this also brings us to the question of what to do if it were your kid who did it, would you help them, or would you be furious and give them the boot.
I personally believe in leniance in this matter, beacuse you can damn well bet that they didn't plan to have a kid. You could yell at them, but make sure you let them know that it's not alright, and even though it's not, you're going to help them. Which also brings us to the topic of abortion, now, you're all going to hate me for this, but I'm definatly pro abortion. Now before you judge me, let me present my arguement on this, and you can bash me for it later.

***My arguement on abortion***

I believe that abortion should be allowed, and accepted, due to the fact that when abortion would be taking place, the fetus is not yet sentient, or self aware in any way, shape or form. Therefore, it doesn't feel anything, it doesn't even know that it's alive, and no regret should be felt. You people have no regrets about killing stuff in FPS games, so why should there be an issue with destroying a non sentient being of any sort. It has no functioning mind at that point, so therefore it can't know what's going on. Also, when a young teenager, by young, i mean still in Jr, or Sr high school gets pregnant, and drops out of school to care for the child, they cost the government over $100 000 by the time their child is old enough to go to school. So if abortion weren't so heavily disputed, and people embraced the fact that the fetus is non sentient, then the economy would be at least a little bit better then it is now.
That's about the end of my rant... sorry that it was kind of long in the tooth but I feel that my point has now been conveyed to a degree that I am happy with.


A feeling that sears my soul,One that burns my mindIt grips my heartAnd breaks my bodyNot madnessOr fearBut one of warmthFor my essenceHas been preservedWithin the golden sanctionOf your heartInsanityDarkness Embrace

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Kaji


Kaji

Quantum Theorist
Location: Vansterdam

Total posts: 564
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Fitria:


I do have to ask a question of Frost though:

Frost how the hell can anyone get pregnant from abstaining from sex?

I didn't say that. Mike (Lightning) did. Well actually he didn't, that's what some people think he said. If you read his post properly you will discover what he is trully saying. I got it the first time around. I think some people need to brush up on their reading comprehension.


In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
HUH??

Mike, your saying that people who dont have sex, are still getting pregnent? Excluding the turkey baster method!
No, ray, I'm saying that commitments to abstinence break a lot more easily than condoms do.

Condoms primarily fail when misused or when not used. Abstinence primarily fails when not used. People who go for "abstinence only" often fail to practice that and wind up pregnant or infected with something.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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BurningByron


member
Location: Australia

Total posts: 340
Posted:As a person who has had sex before getting married I think I should express my opinion.

IT WAS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

Plus not one bad thing has come of it.

How? you may ask... My mum told me the truth, it wasnt candy wrapped in any way what so ever, she just told me the facts.


HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.

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Dirty Marmite Spider


Dirty Marmite Spider

Climbing up my leg
Location: England

Total posts: 141
Posted:What Mike wrote was really intelligent and it's quite annoying that no-one read it properly. He is training to be a doctor and he does know what he's talking about.

Say a teenager decides not to have sex before marriage so doesn't carry condoms around, and then one night ends up really wanting to have sex. Are they going to say no in the heat of the moment - probably not and then due to the lack of a condom they're risking babies and some realy nasty things. If you walk around with the idea that you might have sex and carry contraception then you can still choose not to, but if you change your mind you can still be safe.


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