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Forums > Social Chat > Those who can....should teach.

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:OK, this may just be me being tetchy (I admit random things can get on my nerves), but what do people think of people who try and teach stuff - poi, staff etc - to newbies before they've really learnt it themselves?



I've seen/heard it a few times and for some reason it really annoys me.

For example, last night at our weekly meetings there were lots of new people who were all really nice guys and some decent spinners too.

I was doing a bit of CJ and teaching anyone who wanted to have a go. One of the guys I was teaching, after learning the butterfly (hand flippy move) proceeded to teach his mates, but teaching them wrong things or bad technique etc.

I didn't want to hijack his teachings - I think that would come off as very rude/pretentious/hostile but it annoyed me he was passing on bad info and making it harder for people to learn - I'm a firm believer in learning things the right way first as opposed to learning it an easier way then trying to correct it...



I've seen it with most toys we play with and like I said it just annoys me for no reason.



On the otherhand, when learning poi-moves (and perhaps other toys, but I haven't tried with them) I think it can always be best to learn off the person who learnt it most recently as they are in a really good place to help someone as they've just gone through it themselves and can pass on their tips and tricks.



Does anyone else find this annoying and have any advice or similar experience, or am I just being a teaching snob?


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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:i find teaching ppl hard becasue im a scary teacher, i am like my dad ( a scary shouting maths teacher) and i tryed to teach my firld the butterfly and she couldnt do it till i left her to simply try and error it, but i find that ppl do tricks differently anyway.

i have hooks to get my tricks to work for example my butterfly circle colapses inwards, bt she finds it easier to get them to colapse outwards (i have talkedabout this to other and they say teh same (guys inwards and girls outwards)do you find this?)

so its not just a case of bad tec. but its also how you do the trick!


Step (el-nombrie)


Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:Hmmm, I really enjoy teaching and consider myself fairly good at it - especially the foundation moves. However if I've just started learning a new move, I would never try and teach it to someone else (I don't think I have anyway )I would point them toward whoever had taught me.

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Fire Monkey
member
Location: Chandlers Ford (near Soton)UK
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 176
Posted:I've tought a lot of my mates...and most just want a go and don't mind if it's wrong anyway!

In my exsperiance i've become a hell of a lot better than the people that tought me, so as long as the rough idea is there, things just kinda smove themselves off, it douse take a lot of time to feel comfortable, how you like it.

And after all there are no rules with poi/staff so people have to develope their own style anyway.

So fun first perfection second!


Every ones a monkey!
Yes even you!


bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:there's a saying in martial arts that goes like this:
"DON't TOUCH THAT!""WHY?""IT's MY GROIN!"
no...wait.. it was more like this:
"Martial arts is easy to learn a difficult to get right"

so long as we are aware of that nature of a parforming art, then i guess we can develop from any starting point - even an 'incorrect' one!

firetwirling is a GOOD disease, one that you should be infecting ANYONE and EVERYONE wif.

cough on someone you love today!


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mech
mech

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: "In your ear"
Member Since: 9th Jun 2003
Total posts: 6207
Posted:on this suject, i have always picked stuff up and done it, like poi the first move i did by mistake was a reverse windmill.....fire poi i just did hip reels for the first time, and so on,

but BUT i really want to learn fire breathing and its the only one i wont try on my own as i have readabout it and think it would be a bad idea!

can anyone help me?

later days


Step (el-nombrie)


bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Mechhead, before you learn to breathe anything (i am still learning oxygen ) try walking and stuff around with a mouthfull of water for about 5 minutes. Just as a safety fing, concentrate on simply avoiding any swallow before progressing further down the firebreathing path.
heh, and that's coming from me, who has never ever firebreathed
I was gunna make a spit/swallow gag, but decided against it


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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:durbs i find its best to just round up everyone thats new that wants to have a go and teach them all together in one go then after everyone is getting it helping them individually. maybe the friend is shy and more comfortable with their friend, maybe its a bonding experience for them learning something new together, whatever it is if they are doing it wrong it will be obvious as they will be hitting themselves or dropping or whatever they will come and ask you no doubt.

my old taekwondo master was the highest rank in the organisation in australia when they got a grand master over from korea the grand master the first thing i noticed was how humble he was. the grand master observed the masters teaching and then stoped to class and changed the direction of it to hapkido and proceeded to throw the master all over the place like a rag doll and put him in many uncomfortable locks to teach him to be more humble. so even though you may be very good at twirling and teaching there will always be someone better than you and to them your technique may look incorrect/in need of practise.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


sunbeam
sunbeam

old hand
Location: Madrid
Member Since: 20th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1032
Posted:right on ben-ja-min

in answer to your question durbs, probably a few people find it annoying but yes, IMHO you are being a teaching snob.

Knowledge/skill is not measurable nor is it objective. Why should one way of teaching or learning be any less valid from anyone elses <rhetorical question>


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"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

sunny


Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:Ah, I'm in no way saying I'm the best/better or whatever. There are so many spinners I look up to and respect that it'd be incredibly obnoxious to even call myself "better than most" - I'm not, I'm very average. As to teaching, like with most things a good spinner doesn't make a good teacher, just from my own personal experience I found that alot of people I've taught have progressed really quickly. Perhaps they were just talented in the first place, who knows? I'm not even saying I'm a good teacher, I've learnt so much more off other people than I've ever taught - I hope my opening post wasn't misinterpreted as me flaming and slagging off other spinners.

What annoys me is people who try to teach a move/toy without having actually mastered it themselves - the partially sighted leading the blind if you will I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying that I'd EVER tell them not to (I may offer advice as anyone else would) or say in a loud voice "No no no, you're crap, what you want to do is this" - All I was saying was it annoyed me to see someone teaching something they have yet to fully master.

Bender - accurate as ever "Easy to learn, difficult to master". But isn't it always the Master who teaches?


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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:quote: just from my own personal experience I found that alot of people I've taught have progressed really quickly. Perhaps they were just talented in the first place, who knows? from my personal experience all twirlers that i know who have had to teach themselves took ages to learn the movements. the purpose of a teacher is to convey a concept, a good teacher is able to convey that concept to alot of different ppl with different styles of learning therefore if you have been able to convey the concept that makes you a good teacher.

quote: All I was saying was it annoyed me to see someone teaching something they have yet to fully master. what is it exactly about it that bothers you? why does it annoy you

quote: Bender - accurate as ever "Easy to learn, difficult to master". But isn't it always the Master who teaches? as a general rule this is true, but at the same time alot of new movements come from beginners who do not know the correct technique and as a result of their twirlings new movements arrise. for example one girl was trying to do the corkscrew but she was swinging the poi in opposite directions to each other and that was a movement that i had never considered before and while it isnt the correct technique for corkscrew it is a still a movement that works so as its own unique movement it is correct.

i understand the whole blind leading the blind thing, everyone has something to offer though so i think if they are willing to share what they know thats great even if its only how to hold poi properly thats still something they can help someone who doesnt know how to hold poi


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?


nightsdarkchild
member
Location: relocated to the crowded isola...
Member Since: 10th Jun 2003
Total posts: 84
Posted:It is almost never the master that teaches rather the ones who the master has taught. The master is there to guide, observe, rebuke ect. When i started spinning i was shown the basic moves and then went off on my own. so i see it as the only true teacher of poi is yourself, you just need some one to show the idea to. Is that true teaching? It seems that most every one who does this is put in a position to show others how it is done and when some one learns something they want to show what the know. Even if they know nothing. so i can understan your frustration. now here is some thing to be pissed about. Just because it pisses me off. the person who says "o that looks easy let me try" then they hit themself and have multipul burns on there face arms and legs. The only thing i have to say to them is STUPID. But then thats my fault for letting them see my rig. And when it has to do with breathing fire it even worse. One night after playing some one thought they would like to try breathing so they mixed water with carosen. STUPID.STUPID. So after some thing like you are kinda forced to show how to do some thing, no matter upset you are at the persons foolishness, even though you didn't want to in the first place. so lets all be pissed off at the beginners. Why? Because we can!


and about fire breathing the water in mouth is good advice but what is really needed is breathing exercises. any one can take a mouth full of fluid and blow a flame but to make and shape a flame you breath you must first learn to control you breathing. So look into things that will help with that.


surrounded in flames
Child


we could live beside the ocean leave the fire behind
swim out past the breakers watch the world die


[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:yo,

got both sides of te argument here...

Durbs was talking about Contact juggling, whitch is HARD, much harder than poi or staff, maybe even metior. and I myself have had experances where ive been taught a trick by someone who thinks they can cj, but is really not that good, when I came to london and met some real contact jugglers they pointed out all the bad habbits the first guy had taught me (thank you glass ) and i had to go back and re-learn everything, put me back by a month or two at least.

the thing with poi is, its not so hard, and it has rotational physics and weight, which tend to be very good teachers on thier own, and the newbie spinner can learn just as much from him/herself as a teacher, the teacher often just gives the idea and the newbe gets on with it. In contact juggling there are a lot more traps to fall into that are only apparent from the experanced point of view. Yeah shure you can roll it up your forarm any number of ways, but can other peaple actually see it?

its not about ego here, its about technique, and thats a teachers perpose shurly, if they have too much ego, they wouldnt teach.

btw, was doing really well with my CJ on the street the other day, but it made me realise the importance of concentration, every time a pretty girll went past..... *drop*

T


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:I love the idiosyncratic way in twirling where if you learn something the wrong way, it's not uncommon to develop something simliar and neat by accident instead.

good teaching or otherwise, fwirlage rewards the devout practitioner!

So remember, when you are looking at poi
DON'T CONCENTRATE ON THE FINGER!!
or you will miss all the fwirling glory!!


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funkymonky
funkymonky

member
Location: oxford
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 192
Posted:i wish i had a weekly meeting with other poiers..... i wish i knew other poiers...... i'm so lonley.....


flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:then why not do something about it? It isn't like there's not 24 other oxford people registered here. That's 24 more people than there are from my town and I managed to get a weekly group going just from local postering.


Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Durbs, I am going to leap to the defense of people who teach whilst they are still learning, cos I am one of them!!! Please don't assume we are doing it to be arrogant. Often its cos we can't resist the temptation to help others. If you have a big group of people, there are always some who won't follow the instructions, and will turn to the person next to them and say "what did they say?". If that person is anything like me, they will instantly go into helper mode and try to explain it all too them, possibly very badly.

On the other side, often teaching someone helps your own learning. And often, being a beginner means you still remember the natural tendencies of the body, rather than the movements displayed by the experienced. This way you can spot them when they happen.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...


i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:Amen! Hehe, now that I have experience when I teach someone I can see what they are doing wrong and help them corect it by showing them an exagerated movment, etc. But, in so doing I have developed my own skills far more, as in trying to find the words to express what I do, I find my own problem areas and solutions, which I can then pass on to them almost immediatly.

I got a friend to learn the weave, and butterfly forwards and back all in one day this way, and while some of the things I told him to try and feel were blatently wrong form, etc. they allowed him to quickly get the movements and then he figured out how to clean them up himself.

I taught myself, and the basic steps I went through are usually easily noticed in the person I'm teaching. Heck, some of the ADVANCED moves I have I have showed people and within 20 minutes they figured it out, and I still can't do it. So sometimes it helps out.



Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:Well, maybe it is more of a CJ thing...

As to why it annoys me - who knows... same as twisted up phone leads or empty plugs left on. Just is!

Rozi - I never said they were arrogant! I just said it annoyed me. I know I taught people when I was just starting


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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:learning and teaching firearts and juggling can be frustrating, but most importantly should be FUN! if i see a beginner looking lost and confused, i offer help in a generally friendly manner - if i see someone teaching in a different way, i wander over as well. in my experience its fairly easy to slip into the friendly advisor role and offer a different perspective. just be cool , laugh, and have fun

"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.


Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:"Blind leading the blind" might be a bit of an overstatement here... as a teacher I've seen students working together when one picks a move up and the other doesn't, and I honestly think it works better in the end.

A "Master," if you will, brings with him/her a sort of intimidating quality that a new spinner might be turned off by. A fellow student in their same situation is a much less intimidating figure and allows for more comfortable instruction.

But having the "Master" (senior student) around at the same time as an optional advisor and overall leader is also important. He/she should take time to step out and allow the students to freely work together, but also be around in case there's questions or something is being taught wrong.

Just my 2


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.


Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:I don't think I said "blind leading the blind"... I said "Partially sighted leading the blind"

Anyhoo, I see the points about intimidation, learning off someone of an equal level, no harm being done etc, but I still personally feel that it'd be better to refer someone to a more competent person before trying to teach something you aren't yourself particularly good at.
Hang on... that sounds bad, erm I'm in a hurry, but can you re-word that into a less arrogant way?


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Dio
Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA
Member Since: 11th Jul 2002
Total posts: 729
Posted:I know exactly what yer saying Durbs

But yeah, you'll notice I did stress the importance of having a senior there to supervise and make sure everything was going ok That would be the "more competent person" you referred to?



What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.


Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5687
Posted:*bump*

As it got touched on in Joshthejugglers thread before it got lost.

Can I just point out this was written 2 years ago and my opinions have changed quite a bit - thank you biggrin


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