Forums > Social Chat > Am I the only one? (Religious people beware!)
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Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
EDIT = Been getting some complaints bout this so again, I warn all people who are very religious that the following thread may offend you. Please be prepared. I have also edited some text from this first post so that it may be a *little* less offensive to some.
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is junk? Every where I go there are people talking about their beliefs. Not only that, but they use their beliefs to try and govern other people’s lives. Why? Why is it so important to have meaning in life? Why do people need to believe that when they die, they’ll go to heaven? Isn’t life good enough without some crazy ass story about where they came from and where they’re going? Why can’t everyone just live with the fact that we’re just here and enjoy it while it lasts?
The reason I ask these questions is because it seems that more bad comes from religion than good. Take a look around. Notice how many people have died due to their beliefs. Look at all the wars that have come, gone, and are still going on in the name of god. Look at how much our lives are restricted by things that are “not moral.” Even our technology is suffering. Why can’t I clone myself if I wanted to? Why can’t we use stem cells to help people? Why can’t a rape victim get an abortion? And why can’t an 80 year old man dying from some awful disease put himself out of his misery?
There is so much physical evidence that disproves religion, yet, people hang on and whole heartedly believe these fantastical stories about god(s) and the afterlife. It really gets to me because regardless of the fact that I don’t believe in it, I’m forced to live my life as if I do.
EDITED_BY: ICoN (1075491940)
EDIT = Been getting some complaints bout this so again, I warn all people who are very religious that the following thread may offend you. Please be prepared. I have also edited some text from this first post so that it may be a *little* less offensive to some.
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is junk? Every where I go there are people talking about their beliefs. Not only that, but they use their beliefs to try and govern other people’s lives. Why? Why is it so important to have meaning in life? Why do people need to believe that when they die, they’ll go to heaven? Isn’t life good enough without some crazy ass story about where they came from and where they’re going? Why can’t everyone just live with the fact that we’re just here and enjoy it while it lasts?
The reason I ask these questions is because it seems that more bad comes from religion than good. Take a look around. Notice how many people have died due to their beliefs. Look at all the wars that have come, gone, and are still going on in the name of god. Look at how much our lives are restricted by things that are “not moral.” Even our technology is suffering. Why can’t I clone myself if I wanted to? Why can’t we use stem cells to help people? Why can’t a rape victim get an abortion? And why can’t an 80 year old man dying from some awful disease put himself out of his misery?
There is so much physical evidence that disproves religion, yet, people hang on and whole heartedly believe these fantastical stories about god(s) and the afterlife. It really gets to me because regardless of the fact that I don’t believe in it, I’m forced to live my life as if I do.
EDITED_BY: ICoN (1075491940)
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I'm not so sure that I buy the "People who are trying to convert you are just looking out for you" implication. Some of the people that have spoken to me have been very clear that they are trying to convert me to gain religious "brownie points" so they can assure that they will achieve whatever nirvana that they're aiming to get to. This seems very selfserving. Several Missionaries that I've spoken to seemed to be doing it for their own personal gain more than for the good of mankind.
I know that people are religious for different reasons, but some aspects of organized religion do rely on natural selfishness to instill moral code. "I won't kill my enemy, not because it's the right thing to do, but because I don't want to personally suffer in hell." Granted, our penal system works on the same format "I won't rob because I don't want to personally go to jail."
Quote:
Hey just be glad they care enough to try to help you out, instead of keeping it all to themselves and letting you rot in a tar pit.
I'm not so sure that I buy the "People who are trying to convert you are just looking out for you" implication. Some of the people that have spoken to me have been very clear that they are trying to convert me to gain religious "brownie points" so they can assure that they will achieve whatever nirvana that they're aiming to get to. This seems very selfserving. Several Missionaries that I've spoken to seemed to be doing it for their own personal gain more than for the good of mankind.
I know that people are religious for different reasons, but some aspects of organized religion do rely on natural selfishness to instill moral code. "I won't kill my enemy, not because it's the right thing to do, but because I don't want to personally suffer in hell." Granted, our penal system works on the same format "I won't rob because I don't want to personally go to jail."
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
Faith is where you find it, but it's always the same, whether in a higher power, in yourself, in Barney Rubble (that was an awesome analogy Ray..had me laughing awhile!). You don't know until you get there but you like to believe it all the same. Faith gives strength and support in a time when little else seems to, as Spritie said. I do believe everyone has faith in something, whether tangible or not.
Not having evidence does not disprove anything, as based in the scientific method, you just keep testing, searching and trying. I have absolutely no evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, I have faith it will based on past patterns.
Religion is the same way. People have faith in it because it has given something to them that they have found no where else, and they believe that with continued faith it will still provide what they were looking for.
Then again, if you are legally logic of mind, innocent without evidence..so therefore god didn't do it!
Evidence is actually relative in this case, as much as faith is. My brother in law will swear up and down that in his church he feels the presence of Jesus. There is nothing you can say or do to prove otherwise, because he has felt something. Now, I have been in his church, I think he feels a draft, but I am not going to argue with him because he needs that faith, for whatever reason, in his life.
Little miracles, things that should never have happened occur everyday. People heal. People are found by some strange coincidence, etc... Some feel it is answered prayers and to them, that is evidence. Just because it has not happened to you personally does not mean it is not real.
There are so many things people for centuries had no explanaition for, or worse, thought they did and it changed once our knowledge based evolved.....
The earth was flat.
Spontaneous Human Combustion just happened to evil people (yup, they figured it out)
People heard the voices of God or Demons in their head (now known as schizophrenia)
The Earth was the center of the universe.
Even when we were children we thought rainbows, and raindrops were magic and that sparks from a campfire made the stars in the sky (my son said that once). He KNEW those things, didn't know how or why but believed them on faith until he grew to learn different.
But then, Darwinism is still a theory. So is the Big Bang. Scientific principles accepted on faith because they are not yet proven. What makes the God theory any different, or any less viable? Some people feel aliens are gods. We can not prove nor disprove them and therefore they are still possible.
Faith is all about the possible, not the impossible.
Some things we just aren't ready to know for certain, but I have faith that someday we (as a species) will grow to where we will.
Faith is where you find it, but it's always the same, whether in a higher power, in yourself, in Barney Rubble (that was an awesome analogy Ray..had me laughing awhile!). You don't know until you get there but you like to believe it all the same. Faith gives strength and support in a time when little else seems to, as Spritie said. I do believe everyone has faith in something, whether tangible or not.
Not having evidence does not disprove anything, as based in the scientific method, you just keep testing, searching and trying. I have absolutely no evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, I have faith it will based on past patterns.
Religion is the same way. People have faith in it because it has given something to them that they have found no where else, and they believe that with continued faith it will still provide what they were looking for.
Then again, if you are legally logic of mind, innocent without evidence..so therefore god didn't do it!
Evidence is actually relative in this case, as much as faith is. My brother in law will swear up and down that in his church he feels the presence of Jesus. There is nothing you can say or do to prove otherwise, because he has felt something. Now, I have been in his church, I think he feels a draft, but I am not going to argue with him because he needs that faith, for whatever reason, in his life.
Little miracles, things that should never have happened occur everyday. People heal. People are found by some strange coincidence, etc... Some feel it is answered prayers and to them, that is evidence. Just because it has not happened to you personally does not mean it is not real.
There are so many things people for centuries had no explanaition for, or worse, thought they did and it changed once our knowledge based evolved.....
The earth was flat.
Spontaneous Human Combustion just happened to evil people (yup, they figured it out)
People heard the voices of God or Demons in their head (now known as schizophrenia)
The Earth was the center of the universe.
Even when we were children we thought rainbows, and raindrops were magic and that sparks from a campfire made the stars in the sky (my son said that once). He KNEW those things, didn't know how or why but believed them on faith until he grew to learn different.
But then, Darwinism is still a theory. So is the Big Bang. Scientific principles accepted on faith because they are not yet proven. What makes the God theory any different, or any less viable? Some people feel aliens are gods. We can not prove nor disprove them and therefore they are still possible.
Faith is all about the possible, not the impossible.
Some things we just aren't ready to know for certain, but I have faith that someday we (as a species) will grow to where we will.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
GOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Posted:
Just wanted to say that you always amaze me with your posts Pele. Hope I do get to meet you one day
When it comes to things like Darwinism, the big bang, and aliens, I believe in them. Yes, they are still theories but there is scientific evidence that brought the theories about. Aliens are really the only one that dont have evidence but the only reason I believe they exist is because I know how vast the universe is and cant see us as being the only living beings in it.
Even though I believe in such things, Im in no way inclined to live my life based around them. I dont sit around studying the natural evolution of the planet or gaze into a telescope trying to learn the birthdate of the universe or thank the aliens when a "miracle" happens. It just seems like the logical truth to me so I accept it and go about my business.
What if some day we did find actual concrete proof of such things. Say 10 years from now we come in contact with true alien life forms and they tell us the secrets of the universe. Will people still deny these things and continue with their religious beliefs? Id say they probably would.
Just wanted to say that you always amaze me with your posts Pele. Hope I do get to meet you one day
When it comes to things like Darwinism, the big bang, and aliens, I believe in them. Yes, they are still theories but there is scientific evidence that brought the theories about. Aliens are really the only one that dont have evidence but the only reason I believe they exist is because I know how vast the universe is and cant see us as being the only living beings in it.
Even though I believe in such things, Im in no way inclined to live my life based around them. I dont sit around studying the natural evolution of the planet or gaze into a telescope trying to learn the birthdate of the universe or thank the aliens when a "miracle" happens. It just seems like the logical truth to me so I accept it and go about my business.
What if some day we did find actual concrete proof of such things. Say 10 years from now we come in contact with true alien life forms and they tell us the secrets of the universe. Will people still deny these things and continue with their religious beliefs? Id say they probably would.
Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.
-Me
member
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
1,591 posts
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posted:
Actually scientists can take a damn long time to accept overwhealingly compelling evidence sometimes.
Maybe you should study some of the history of science eh?
Actually scientists can take a damn long time to accept overwhealingly compelling evidence sometimes.
Maybe you should study some of the history of science eh?
GOLD Member
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
journeyman
84 posts
Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
Posted:
I find most people cannot find the strength in themselves to accept:
1. "Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms."
2. "No fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave."
3. "All the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system"
4. "The whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins."
They thus turn to religion to serve as their crutch against reality.
(quotes from Bertrand Russell's "A free man's worship")
I find most people cannot find the strength in themselves to accept:
1. "Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms."
2. "No fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave."
3. "All the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system"
4. "The whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins."
They thus turn to religion to serve as their crutch against reality.
(quotes from Bertrand Russell's "A free man's worship")
Genuineness only thrives in the dark -- like celery.
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
No.
I think the same thing.
Quote:
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is junk
No.
I think the same thing.
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
indeed. Things such as continental drift, cancer viruses, antisepsis, comet impacts, and the existence of atoms were all derided in the past but are now widely accepted.
I should point out that the above info is from this month's edition of Focus, a UK science mag which i bought today
Quote:
Actually scientists can take a damn long time to accept overwhealingly compelling evidence sometimes.
Maybe you should study some of the history of science eh?
indeed. Things such as continental drift, cancer viruses, antisepsis, comet impacts, and the existence of atoms were all derided in the past but are now widely accepted.
I should point out that the above info is from this month's edition of Focus, a UK science mag which i bought today
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I've studied quite a bit of the history of science and beg to differ. There have been many discoveries that have revolutionized many fields 'overnight'. I gotta say that science takes a beating because it is often reinterpreted by people that don't understand.
Example that happens all the time:
1) One university does one experiment which suggests that there seems to be a link between cholesterol and egg consuption in a small population. University suggests doing a larger study before drawing any conclusions.
2) Dumbass local media (can you tell I'm bias? ) jumps on the story and releases "BREAKING NEWS!!! EGGS WILL KILL YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN!!! TUNE IN AT 11:00 AND DRINK PEPSI!!!"
3) Uninformed consumer stops buying eggs.
4) University completes further studies and finds that eggs do have the high levels of cholesterol that were originally predicted but are not absorbed by the body as much as preliminary study suggested.
5) Dumbass News Reports "SCIENTISTS WRONG!!! EGGS ARE GOOD!!! GO EAT EGGS!!!"
6) Uneducated consumer mutters "Stupid scientists, keep changing thier minds about eggs, first they're good, then they're bad... forget it, I'm snorting laundry detergent... ain't no scientist gonna tell me what's good for me."
I'm oversimplifying and exagerating (NO REALLY?!?) but this goes on ALL THE TIME in our 'sound bite' news world.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not as pro science as I may come across, despite it being my profession. Most real scientists have no trouble defining the sizable body of knowledge that we 'know' as well as the even larger body of knowledge that we don't.
Quote:
Actually scientists can take a damn long time to accept overwhealingly compelling evidence sometimes.
Maybe you should study some of the history of science eh?
I've studied quite a bit of the history of science and beg to differ. There have been many discoveries that have revolutionized many fields 'overnight'. I gotta say that science takes a beating because it is often reinterpreted by people that don't understand.
Example that happens all the time:
1) One university does one experiment which suggests that there seems to be a link between cholesterol and egg consuption in a small population. University suggests doing a larger study before drawing any conclusions.
2) Dumbass local media (can you tell I'm bias?
) jumps on the story and releases "BREAKING NEWS!!! EGGS WILL KILL YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN!!! TUNE IN AT 11:00 AND DRINK PEPSI!!!" 3) Uninformed consumer stops buying eggs.
4) University completes further studies and finds that eggs do have the high levels of cholesterol that were originally predicted but are not absorbed by the body as much as preliminary study suggested.
5) Dumbass News Reports "SCIENTISTS WRONG!!! EGGS ARE GOOD!!! GO EAT EGGS!!!"
6) Uneducated consumer mutters "Stupid scientists, keep changing thier minds about eggs, first they're good, then they're bad... forget it, I'm snorting laundry detergent... ain't no scientist gonna tell me what's good for me."
I'm oversimplifying and exagerating (NO REALLY?!?) but this goes on ALL THE TIME in our 'sound bite' news world.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not as pro science as I may come across, despite it being my profession. Most real scientists have no trouble defining the sizable body of knowledge that we 'know' as well as the even larger body of knowledge that we don't.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
SILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Posted:
I apologise if this discussion's moved on slightly since when this should have been posted, but I had some computer problems and still wanted to make myself heard, so I've had to wait a while to post.
I really fail to see the problems with this statement.
It's not trying to tell people that they're wrong, merely putting across a point of view and asking if anyone else feels the same.
from the respect thread:
It seems to me that this is what happened in the initial post.
It starts off with an opinion and a question, followed by a few more opinions and questions, followed by a paragraph explaining why Icon supports this opinion.
Admittedly it's quite blunt, but in a thread about religion, I think it's needed.
Many times I've seen a thread derailed for whole pages because someone hasn't been clear enough in one of their posts.
If being blunt avoids all of this, I see that as a good thing.
I honestly can't think of a better way to put the point across than how it was done.
Yes, it can be worded slightly differently but it's still going to have the same content and most likely be full of extra words that don't need to be there.
Is this really any different from what was said in the initial post?
'I believe all religion is pants.
I believe this because more bad seems to come from religion than good etc...
I would like to know why people insist on using their religion to govern other people's lives and why people need to believe in a heaven that they'll go to when they die. etc...
Is this opinion unique to me or does anyone else share it?'
I feel that the only reason people have taken offence is because of the subject.
Would anyone really care if I said this:
"Am I the only one who thinks that all cars are crap?
Why do people need to drive everywhere? Can't they walk? Cars don't look good and they pollute heavily."
That's a similar generalisation about something that lots of people rely on in their lives and it's backed up with a short explanation of beliefs but I doubt there'd be anyone finding that offensive enough to comment about how offensive they found it.
I'd hope it to be more likely that if any of the reasons given were wrong that someone would dispute them and offer some proof themselves.
Anyway, er... rant over, lets try and catch up with the topic.
As far as I know, scientific method assumes from the start that whatever is being searched for doesn't exist, be that the existance of something, or a causal link between things (eg.. eating lard makes you fat). This is called the null hypothesis
It then sets out to find sufficient evidence to disprove the null hypothesis, which would therefore prove the existance of what they're looking for.
(someone please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I did anything involving proper scientific method )
Working with that method would effectively mean that enough evidence of a higher being would have to be found before it was accepted as fact, rather than accepting it based on lack of evidence disproving it.
Also, and I apologise if this is just being pedantic, but isn't there enough evidence of the earth orbiting the sun to prove that the sun will rise in the morning?
As my last point, since this post is already rather larger than I intended, I'd like to mention that I agree with NYC, science takes a huge beating, due in a large part to the media not stopping to wait around for the second half of sentances.
I apologise if this discussion's moved on slightly since when this should have been posted, but I had some computer problems and still wanted to make myself heard, so I've had to wait a while to post.
Quote:
Am I the only one who thinks all religion is crap? *snip*
I really fail to see the problems with this statement.
It's not trying to tell people that they're wrong, merely putting across a point of view and asking if anyone else feels the same.
from the respect thread:
Quote:
There are people here who are dead set it seems on forcing others to see their opinion as the better one. If you disagree fine. Put up your opinion with your supporting statements
It seems to me that this is what happened in the initial post.
It starts off with an opinion and a question, followed by a few more opinions and questions, followed by a paragraph explaining why Icon supports this opinion.
Admittedly it's quite blunt, but in a thread about religion, I think it's needed.
Many times I've seen a thread derailed for whole pages because someone hasn't been clear enough in one of their posts.
If being blunt avoids all of this, I see that as a good thing.
I honestly can't think of a better way to put the point across than how it was done.
Yes, it can be worded slightly differently but it's still going to have the same content and most likely be full of extra words that don't need to be there.
Is this really any different from what was said in the initial post?
'I believe all religion is pants.
I believe this because more bad seems to come from religion than good etc...
I would like to know why people insist on using their religion to govern other people's lives and why people need to believe in a heaven that they'll go to when they die. etc...
Is this opinion unique to me or does anyone else share it?'
I feel that the only reason people have taken offence is because of the subject.
Would anyone really care if I said this:
"Am I the only one who thinks that all cars are crap?
Why do people need to drive everywhere? Can't they walk? Cars don't look good and they pollute heavily."
That's a similar generalisation about something that lots of people rely on in their lives and it's backed up with a short explanation of beliefs but I doubt there'd be anyone finding that offensive enough to comment about how offensive they found it.
I'd hope it to be more likely that if any of the reasons given were wrong that someone would dispute them and offer some proof themselves.
Anyway, er... rant over, lets try and catch up with the topic.
Quote:
Not having evidence does not disprove anything, as based in the scientific method, you just keep testing, searching and trying. I have absolutely no evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, I have faith it will based on past patterns.
As far as I know, scientific method assumes from the start that whatever is being searched for doesn't exist, be that the existance of something, or a causal link between things (eg.. eating lard makes you fat). This is called the null hypothesis
It then sets out to find sufficient evidence to disprove the null hypothesis, which would therefore prove the existance of what they're looking for.
(someone please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I did anything involving proper scientific method
) Working with that method would effectively mean that enough evidence of a higher being would have to be found before it was accepted as fact, rather than accepting it based on lack of evidence disproving it.
Also, and I apologise if this is just being pedantic, but isn't there enough evidence of the earth orbiting the sun to prove that the sun will rise in the morning?
As my last point, since this post is already rather larger than I intended, I'd like to mention that I agree with NYC, science takes a huge beating, due in a large part to the media not stopping to wait around for the second half of sentances.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
I never said it was accepted as fact, however there is enough belief that something will come of a study to warrent the testing. You have to have that guess before anything else can happen. That is what I was referring to.
You are still working on faith that the sun will be there. That the earth will still be rotating. That something will not happen in the night. Granted, if it does, sunrise is the least of your worries most likely but as the example, there are still acts of faith involved.
I am not a religious person at all, I was simply explaining why people have faith, or why some search for it.
I agree here as well....too many examples to support it...besides, NYC's got me on this whole..."This is your brain...This is your brain on HoP. Any questions?" thing which has had me giggling for awhile.
Quote:
Working with that method would effectively mean that enough evidence of a higher being would have to be found before it was accepted as fact, rather than accepting it based on lack of evidence disproving it.
I never said it was accepted as fact, however there is enough belief that something will come of a study to warrent the testing. You have to have that guess before anything else can happen. That is what I was referring to.
Quote:
Also, and I apologise if this is just being pedantic, but isn't there enough evidence of the earth orbiting the sun to prove that the sun will rise in the morning?
You are still working on faith that the sun will be there. That the earth will still be rotating. That something will not happen in the night. Granted, if it does, sunrise is the least of your worries most likely but as the example, there are still acts of faith involved.
I am not a religious person at all, I was simply explaining why people have faith, or why some search for it.
Quote:
As my last point, since this post is already rather larger than I intended, I'd like to mention that I agree with NYC, science takes a huge beating, due in a large part to the media not stopping to wait around for the second half of sentances.
I agree here as well....too many examples to support it...besides, NYC's got me on this whole..."This is your brain...This is your brain on HoP. Any questions?" thing which has had me giggling for awhile.
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
SILVER Member
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Liquid Cow
2,629 posts
Location: High Wycombe, England
Posted:
That's true, although sheer curiosity and lack of current knowledge can substitute for that occasionally. I think that either trying to prove your beliefs or being able to admit that you don't know about something are both good enough reasons for starting testing.
Effectively, I think that both someone who thinks 'I believe there is a god/purple badger/whatever and I'm going to prove it' is just as likely to start testing as someone who thinks 'is there a god/purple badger/whatever? I don't know, lets have a look and see what we can find'.
The only difference is credibility, scientists are obviously going to have more credibility with other scientists and the same's true with religious groups.
However, anyone wearing a tv evangelist suit should lose all credability with everyone in my opinion
I really just wanted to straighten out how the scientific method goes about doing things - and also to see if I remembered it right
I suppose I took your use of the word faith as meaning religious faith, whereas now I'm not so sure. Looking at it that way, I also have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, because I've been told how it happens and don't think anything's going to be changing that anytime soon, which I suppose is a form of faith in itself.
Quote:
I never said it was accepted as fact, however there is enough belief that something will come of a study to warrent the testing. You have to have that guess before anything else can happen.
That's true, although sheer curiosity and lack of current knowledge can substitute for that occasionally. I think that either trying to prove your beliefs or being able to admit that you don't know about something are both good enough reasons for starting testing.
Effectively, I think that both someone who thinks 'I believe there is a god/purple badger/whatever and I'm going to prove it' is just as likely to start testing as someone who thinks 'is there a god/purple badger/whatever? I don't know, lets have a look and see what we can find'.
The only difference is credibility, scientists are obviously going to have more credibility with other scientists and the same's true with religious groups.
However, anyone wearing a tv evangelist suit should lose all credability with everyone in my opinion
I really just wanted to straighten out how the scientific method goes about doing things - and also to see if I remembered it right
Quote:
You are still working on faith that the sun will be there. That the earth will still be rotating. That something will not happen in the night. Granted, if it does, sunrise is the least of your worries most likely but as the example, there are still acts of faith involved.
I suppose I took your use of the word faith as meaning religious faith, whereas now I'm not so sure. Looking at it that way, I also have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, because I've been told how it happens and don't think anything's going to be changing that anytime soon, which I suppose is a form of faith in itself.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I think we ask these types of questions because we are always trying to find the truth, and understand what it's all about. Many people recognise a spirituality or feel a need for spirituality, it seems a basic part of existing. I think many organised religions have lost the plot regarding Christ's teachings and have grown into self-serving empires.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic, belonging to the One True Church. I resent the indoctrination I received as a child, and now I think the path lies in finding a connection with your own (no Religin inspired) spirituality. For me I am drawn to Celtic or perhaps somethin earlier and earthier.
I think we ask these types of questions because we are always trying to find the truth, and understand what it's all about. Many people recognise a spirituality or feel a need for spirituality, it seems a basic part of existing. I think many organised religions have lost the plot regarding Christ's teachings and have grown into self-serving empires.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic, belonging to the One True Church. I resent the indoctrination I received as a child, and now I think the path lies in finding a connection with your own (no Religin inspired) spirituality. For me I am drawn to Celtic or perhaps somethin earlier and earthier.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
BRONZE Member
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
the henna lady
6,193 posts
Location: WNY, USA
Posted:
On the first page of this thread, somewhere I think, I actually exerpted the definitions of faith, spiritual and religion because it seemed that people were using the terms interchangably and I wanted to use that to support my opinions.
Religious and non-religious faith are the exact same thing to me. A belief in something you really do not know for certain. It works for god, aliens, yeti, loch ness monster, my acing an audition (hopefully) and the sun rising tomorrow.
It's all where you direct it!
It's why I said, okay, well, I am pretty sure I said it...that you can have faith without religion and spirituality but you can not have those two without faith. But it is all my opinion.
Pele
Quote:
I suppose I took your use of the word faith as meaning religious faith, whereas now I'm not so sure. Looking at it that way, I also have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, because I've been told how it happens and don't think anything's going to be changing that anytime soon, which I suppose is a form of faith in itself.
On the first page of this thread, somewhere I think, I actually exerpted the definitions of faith, spiritual and religion because it seemed that people were using the terms interchangably and I wanted to use that to support my opinions.
Religious and non-religious faith are the exact same thing to me. A belief in something you really do not know for certain. It works for god, aliens, yeti, loch ness monster, my acing an audition (hopefully) and the sun rising tomorrow.
It's all where you direct it!
It's why I said, okay, well, I am pretty sure I said it...that you can have faith without religion and spirituality but you can not have those two without faith. But it is all my opinion.
Pele
Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
NYC then they really arnt believers in my opinion and can just sit on whatever they wish and rotate!
If you don't like religion that’s fine, that is your choice, but c'mon, why bash on the people who do just because they bug you about it? How many pages long is this topic, the majority of it being "I don't like people who try to tell me how to live my life"?? Arnt you telling them how to live their life?
It is a bit hypocritical isn't it?
NYC then they really arnt believers in my opinion and can just sit on whatever they wish and rotate!
If you don't like religion that’s fine, that is your choice, but c'mon, why bash on the people who do just because they bug you about it? How many pages long is this topic, the majority of it being "I don't like people who try to tell me how to live my life"?? Arnt you telling them how to live their life?
It is a bit hypocritical isn't it?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posted:
My philosophy on the whole thing is that any kind of belief is a religion.
I'm not going to get into technical details of science vs religion (when actually lots of scientists are religious in some way) as ultimately it doesnt help anyone.
Bascially i'm religious, and part of my religion is acceptance of others, and i quote directly from Quran for this: "I may not change your hearts or minds, but I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship.I shall never worship what you worship, nor will you ever worship what I worship: You have your religion, and I have mine." (Surah 109). If you look close enough at every major (and minor) religion there is something somewhere that says acceptance of others is paramount.
As for someone pushing their belief on people.... I hate that. Whether it be fundamentalist christians, or be it the out-out-and-out more gay people who insist that the whole world has to be gay and if you dont think so you are homophobic. Pushing your ideas onto anyone is encouraging totalitarianism which benefits nobody
We are all ourselves and are free to think as we will. Someone said to me once "just because someone didnt choose your path doesnt mean he's lost his way"
My philosophy on the whole thing is that any kind of belief is a religion.
I'm not going to get into technical details of science vs religion (when actually lots of scientists are religious in some way) as ultimately it doesnt help anyone.
Bascially i'm religious, and part of my religion is acceptance of others, and i quote directly from Quran for this: "I may not change your hearts or minds, but I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship.I shall never worship what you worship, nor will you ever worship what I worship: You have your religion, and I have mine." (Surah 109). If you look close enough at every major (and minor) religion there is something somewhere that says acceptance of others is paramount.
As for someone pushing their belief on people.... I hate that. Whether it be fundamentalist christians, or be it the out-out-and-out more gay people who insist that the whole world has to be gay and if you dont think so you are homophobic. Pushing your ideas onto anyone is encouraging totalitarianism which benefits nobody
We are all ourselves and are free to think as we will. Someone said to me once "just because someone didnt choose your path doesnt mean he's lost his way"
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
While I undserstand what you mean, I don't agree.
It is my belief that if you arnt on the right path you are lost. In my belief there is only one road to Heaven, the rest of them are going to hell.
While I undserstand what you mean, I don't agree.
It is my belief that if you arnt on the right path you are lost. In my belief there is only one road to Heaven, the rest of them are going to hell.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posted:
that may be so but it's not your job to bully someone onto your path.
that may be so but it's not your job to bully someone onto your path.
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
EDIT~Rephrased to remove confusion or accusing suggestions
If I share my faith/religion does that make me a bully? No, it means that I am living out my religion. Is that so wrong? Should I allow myself to be bullied into silence, just because someone doesn't want to hear what I have to say, or doesn't agree with it?
EDITED_BY: Raymund Phule (Fireproof) (1075569346)
EDIT~Rephrased to remove confusion or accusing suggestions
If I share my faith/religion does that make me a bully? No, it means that I am living out my religion. Is that so wrong? Should I allow myself to be bullied into silence, just because someone doesn't want to hear what I have to say, or doesn't agree with it?
EDITED_BY: Raymund Phule (Fireproof) (1075569346)
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
member
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
34 posts
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posted:
the discussion is about people who decide to force their belief on others. At no point did i say that was your approach.
If someone asks me about my religion i tell them as much as i can, but i try to avoid being the one who brings it up. Problem is at the moment i get loads and loads of questions and people get the impression i'm preaching.
And as for silencing you? i never said that and indeed 2 posts ago i just said that everyone has their beliefs and they may not be mine but i respect what everyone else thinks.
We'll all find out for sure on the Last Day anyway
the discussion is about people who decide to force their belief on others. At no point did i say that was your approach.
If someone asks me about my religion i tell them as much as i can, but i try to avoid being the one who brings it up. Problem is at the moment i get loads and loads of questions and people get the impression i'm preaching.
And as for silencing you? i never said that and indeed 2 posts ago i just said that everyone has their beliefs and they may not be mine but i respect what everyone else thinks.
We'll all find out for sure on the Last Day anyway
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
what about people who live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of the right path through no fault of their own but because of isolation does that mean that they are going to hell?
Quote:
it is my belief that if you arnt on the right path you are lost. In my belief there is only one road to Heaven, the rest of them are going to hell
what about people who live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of the right path through no fault of their own but because of isolation does that mean that they are going to hell?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Well... you can try to reach as many people as you can, but you can't reach them all... they will suffer the same fate as those who choose not to follow. Whoever told you that life was fair... lied.
Azrelle, I wasn't meaning you when I said you. I am sorry, I should have phrased that better.
If I may ask, why do you feel uncomfertable "preaching" about what you believe in.
Quote:
what about people who live in remote regions of the world that have never heard of the right path through no fault of their own but because of isolation does that mean that they are going to hell?
Well... you can try to reach as many people as you can, but you can't reach them all... they will suffer the same fate as those who choose not to follow. Whoever told you that life was fair... lied.
Azrelle, I wasn't meaning you when I said you. I am sorry, I should have phrased that better.
If I may ask, why do you feel uncomfertable "preaching" about what you believe in.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
A very good friend of mine, who is in the seminary right now, says that he believes that there are many paths to heaven, which is why both Catholics and Jews can make it there.
He says that for people who do not believe in G-d, they will go to Hell, but that Hell is not the eternal torture that it is made out to be. He says that Hell is nothing more than separation from G-d.
Me personally? If I believed in hell, I'd say it was something like a huge Burning Man. It's the place that Pat Robertson would like LEAST to spend eternity!
Quote:
While I undserstand what you mean, I don't agree.
It is my belief that if you arnt on the right path you are lost. In my belief there is only one road to Heaven, the rest of them are going to hell.
A very good friend of mine, who is in the seminary right now, says that he believes that there are many paths to heaven, which is why both Catholics and Jews can make it there.
He says that for people who do not believe in G-d, they will go to Hell, but that Hell is not the eternal torture that it is made out to be. He says that Hell is nothing more than separation from G-d.
Me personally? If I believed in hell, I'd say it was something like a huge Burning Man. It's the place that Pat Robertson would like LEAST to spend eternity!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
Ehh could be worse, it could be eternity with all your fav toys on the otherside of unbreakable glass and you were forced to sit there and watch them go to waste!
Ehh could be worse, it could be eternity with all your fav toys on the otherside of unbreakable glass and you were forced to sit there and watch them go to waste!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
that sounds rather cruel, why would a loving caring god allow his children to be born into an environment where they have no possibility of reaching heaven. if god is all knowing surely he knows that they can not find the way?
what makes u so sure that the path you are on is the correct one? have u had a profound experience and spoken with god or are u just believing what you read in a book written by men?
Quote:
Well... you can try to reach as many people as you can, but you can't reach them all... they will suffer the same fate as those who choose not to follow. Whoever told you that life was fair... lied.
that sounds rather cruel, why would a loving caring god allow his children to be born into an environment where they have no possibility of reaching heaven. if god is all knowing surely he knows that they can not find the way?
what makes u so sure that the path you are on is the correct one? have u had a profound experience and spoken with god or are u just believing what you read in a book written by men?
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
sharing your religion doesn't make you a bully.
unless, once asked to stop you keep going on about it. most people, yourself included i assume, would at that point stop and talk about something else.
sharing your religion doesn't make you a bully.
unless, once asked to stop you keep going on about it. most people, yourself included i assume, would at that point stop and talk about something else.
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
how come you miss out the 'o' in God ?
Quote:
He says that for people who do not believe in G-d
how come you miss out the 'o' in God ?
veteran
1,269 posts
Location: middle of Troon
1,269 posts
Location: middle of Troon
Posted:
random murbles
BELTANE FIRE FESTIVAL. 30th april ~ Calton hill - Edinburgh
SAMHUINN FESTIVAL. 31st October ~ Royal Mile - Edinburgh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Silly Jewish tradition. The idea is that writing out the word "God" produces a temptation to worship the word on paper, sort of like making an idol, so it shouldn't be done.
Like I say, it's silly, but it's a habit I'm in and one I'm trying to get out of.
God. There I wrote it.
Besides, God can't strike me with lightning because I am Lightning!
Quote:
how come you miss out the 'o' in God ?
Silly Jewish tradition. The idea is that writing out the word "God" produces a temptation to worship the word on paper, sort of like making an idol, so it shouldn't be done.
Like I say, it's silly, but it's a habit I'm in and one I'm trying to get out of.
God. There I wrote it.
Besides, God can't strike me with lightning because I am Lightning!
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Ghostbuster
455 posts
Location: York, UK
Posted:
well done, it does seem like a silly irrational thing to me as well
i mean worship a word on a screen/paper? makes NO sense at all
well done, it does seem like a silly irrational thing to me as well
i mean worship a word on a screen/paper? makes NO sense at all
Enter a "Title" here:
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
2,905 posts
Location: San Diego California
Posted:
But yet some people worship paper representations of gold, so why not god?
But yet some people worship paper representations of gold, so why not god?
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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