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Forums > Social Discussion > 'Ground Zero Mosque' draws large scale attention

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:A muslim community intends to build a mosque near "Ground Zero" in NYC, which draws a lot of attention (and tension) to the project.

Recently demonstrations were held to block the project. Pres. Obama is not necessarily opposing the project (drawing heavy criticism) and NY major Bloomberg supports the project under US "freedom of religion" maxime.

Understandably many US citizens feel that a mosque near the 9/11 site would deeply hurt feelings of the relatives of those ~2.900 killed in the attacks (neglecting that also (innocent) Muslims had been amongst those killed in the attacks).

Certainly many of the opponents of the project are Muslims themselves for a variety of reasons.

Though the US constitution grants a right to freedom of religious expression and worship to any of its citizens, many feel it would be much more sensitive and earn much more respect from the US public if the Islamic center would be shifted further away from the site.

I for my part hope that they will find a solution which respects all parties involved and which does not draw negativity and violence.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:forgiven hug wink

Guess the protesters could settle with White Plains wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Originally Posted By: Laasya9/11 was a terrible tragedy that killed a terrifying number of innocent people of all different races and religions. Same with Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, Chernobyl, the earthquake in Haiti, etc etc... Tragedies happen. It sucks, but it's true. That doesn't give you the right to turn an entire race of people into a scapegoat. The community center is a step to alleviate the tension that shouldn't exist. People really need to just step back and remember what is important.

A bit late to the party, I avoided this thread cause of how I feel but no sense holding back. As you pointed out, we can't turn a race into a scapegoat. But also lets not forget the actions the US took back during WW2. I'm not comparing the entirety of Islam to Japan, but there are thing we do to make ourselves safer. Personally there's a lot going on in America that I don't like right now. First and foremost is the idiocy of my fellow countrymen in supporting the idiot politicians. Although lets be fair and honest, only a few of the politicians are "stupid" the remainder are simply looking out for themselves. Now back on topic. I don't like Islam. There, I said it, rage at me all you want, go ahead, I really don't care. I'm sick and tired of people bending over backwards to accommodate them and was even told the other day to "embrace your Muslim brothers". Before I go on too long and get painted as a bigot and a racist (which by the way, not possible when talking about Islam, its a religion not a race, many people in NY tend to forget this, same thing with the entire world and Jews) let me also say, I have everything against any religion (except real Buddhism, see why in a second). "God", the loving deity of omnipotence, is the primary source of violence in our world. I've heard so many arguments for it, but in the end it boils down to a complicated and face saving way of saying "I'm afraid of death." As for the "mosque" or Community Center goes, yeah I have a massive problem with it. Not because its religious and I'm tired of being told that. If a group of Italian extremists attacked us I wouldn't want an Italian community center right next to ground zero, or Russian or anything. As the article posted earlier pointed out its two or three blocks away, that's really not that far. For someone who grew up walking the city, its really nothing. My bias against it is entirely personal, I'll admit that. I grew up in a family of medics. My mother, uncles, aunts, and close family friends all work in the service and a lot of them died that day. My mother is still getting worse from the aftereffects. They want to have their community center, fine, do it somewhere else that isn't going to make me and all the other people think about it on a daily basis. They also claim to be peaceful and loving and just wanting to improve the situation, but someone (supposedly) nearly died over this. Doesn't seem very peaceful, even if the victim was muslim its still going to show just how many people are offended by this. At every turn I'm told "you have no right to tell them they can't be there" or "freedom of religion". Yeah well there's also something called freedom of speech, which the government seems to forget about a lot. You have the freedom to say anything you want, so long as it doesn't offend anybody. I'm sick of our government bending over backwards to appease people so much they fail to realize how much they offend guys like me, or maybe they just don't care. Taking the liberty to rant a bit (though to you guys that's probably been obvious from the start) a bit on all of this and other topics. One of my biggest problems is our president. Obama should never have been elected. I stood against him from the moment I looked into him. He's got no experience, doesn't know what he's doing and is a treating his position like he's a celebrity and not the head of the free world and, of course, the media's playing right along. I am glad to see that his approval rating dropped and a lot more people have problems with him now, but that should've been evident from the start. What gets me most (recently) is the events of Memorial Day. He couldn't be bothered to be at (I'm blanking out on the name, I'm tired sorry) Cemetery because he was on "vacation" The cemetery every president has gone to on memorial day since its creation. Maybe he forgot, the president doesn't get "vacations" but he's taking an awful lot of them. He's to be always on call and always ready to jet back tot he White House. No one said he can't spend time with his family, but he needs to do his job, even if he's terrible at it. Alas I have ranted and raved way off topic, but I've not done that for a long time and I needed to. Always willing to have an exchange of ideas to anyone who disagrees with this bitter republican.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:I can has paragraphing?

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


JuggleSean
Ooops
Location: EARTH
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2009
Total posts: 116
Posted:Originally Posted By: Warior Drake
I'm not comparing the entirety of Islam to Japan, but there are thing we do to make ourselves safer... I don't like Islam... I'm sick and tired of people bending over backwards to accommodate them... Before I go on too long and get painted as a bigot and a racist... I have everything against any religion (except real Buddhism, see why in a second)... You have the freedom to say anything you want, so long as it doesn't offend anybody... I'm sick of our government bending over backwards to appease people so much they fail to realize how much they offend guys like me, or maybe they just don't care... One of my biggest problems is our president... Obama should never have been elected... He's got no experience, doesn't know what he's doing and is a treating his position like he's a celebrity and not the head of the free world and, of course, the media's playing right along... Always willing to have an exchange of ideas to anyone who disagrees with this bitter republican.

Religious intolerance...?

Bigot = "a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race" - World English Dictionary

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. That is the path to the dark side." -Yoda

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" -Voltaire

"Fox News, Fair and Balanced" -Fox News

Love,
Sean


Groovy


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Originally Posted By: Rouge DragonI can has paragraphing?

Sorry Rougie, when I go into rant mode I lose the ability to use proper grammar.

@Sean I'm an author, I know what a bigot is, I was referring to racist being impossible. Again, bad grammar in rant mode, sorry for that.

The classic Yoda quote, while awesome, means little to me. Anger, hate, suffering and "the dark side" or whatever you'd like to call it, evil, immorality, they're all parts of us. I'm done pretending to be something else and take some kind of a high road.

Another classic, iconic quote. I agree, to a point. This is America of course (well at lease where I'm sending this message from, I know many of HoP's members aren't from the states). But that doesn't mean I have to like, agree with or simply step out of the way and accept anything. If someone's doing something I feel is wrong I'll go to lengths to stop it.
Neutral Good: Doing the right thing, whatever it may be. Supporting law and order so long as it provides a service and doesn't overstep it's bounds. Won't intentionally do evil, but is not opposed to hurting people if he has to to protect or further a greater good. The embodiment of a balance between just course and "the end justifies the means" who isn't afraid to topple a government or commit illegal activities for what they perceive to be the good of the people he feels he must protect. (Obligatory D&D reference, don't think I made one yet)

"Fox News, Fair and Balanced".... lulz. Not cause its fox, cause its news.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


JuggleSean
Ooops
Location: EARTH
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2009
Total posts: 116
Posted:Originally Posted By: Warior Drake Before I go on too long and get painted as a bigot

Originally Posted By: Warior Drake I don't like Islam... I'm sick and tired of people bending over backwards to accommodate them...I'm sick of our government bending over backwards to appease people so much they fail to realize how much they offend guys like me, or maybe they just don't care...

= Religious Intolerance = Bigotry

Get painted you did not. Painted yourself you did.


Groovy


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Fair enough. I did a good job of painting myself pretty well.

Still I don't view what I'm saying as intolerance. Tolerate just means putting up with something, it also can mean not hindering or prohibiting something. There's also the physical tolerance, to pain or drugging but I sincerely doubt that's what Religious Intolerance is referring to. I'll put up with it's existence. I won't stop people from being Muslim, don't really think I could if I wanted to. But then there's letting them do whatever they want to much that it offends me. That's where I draw the line. If you call that "intolerance" then fine, I'm intolerant.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


JuggleSean
Ooops
Location: EARTH
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2009
Total posts: 116
Posted:Originally Posted By: Warior Drake But then there's letting them do whatever they want to much that it offends me. That's where I draw the line. If you call that "intolerance" then fine, I'm intolerant.

Religious intolerance your previous comments were. Not "letting them do whatever they want too much" is getting closer to religious persecution. History shows where religious intolerance, oppression, and persecution lead.

Coexist.


Groovy


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:Facebook reactions

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:9/11 terror attacks ~ 3.000 civilian casualties in the US

9 years later, two countries invaded
civilian casualties: approx 125.000"enemy forces" killed: maybe 300.000 + 70.000
(very rough estimate, deliberately not mentioning coalition forces)
total of maybe up to 500.000 people killed in Afghanistan/ Iraq
let's take Iraq out of it, not only might the war in Iraq not a direct consequence to 9/11. Let's only take Afghanistan: let's estimate 'only' 25.000 civilian casualties... (roughly).. means that for every (truly) innocent US victim about 8 civilian Afghani got killed... not Taliban, not terrorists... As the victims of 9/11, these have been human beings... grand/parents, sisters/ brothers and children, friends...

Is every Muslim now an enemy to the US? Also those who live and work in the US for generations? Are they being lumped together with ObL? With Saddam Hussein? ...

I too would propose a site further away from "ground zero" if possible, but only because of the stir... it shouldn't even be an issue (imho).


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTom9/11 terror attacks ~ 3.000 civilian casualties in the US

Subtract those that weren't American...


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


Laasya
Laasya

Wind Dancer
Location: USA, east coast
Member Since: 26th May 2010
Total posts: 126
Posted:can't say I know anything about the veracity of the figures, but I agree with FireTom that they should (if possible) just move the location of the community center. But in the grand scheme of things, what I think doesn't make a difference. And thus I retire from this conversation.

/retires


Impermanent are all created things;
Strive on with awareness.
- Buddha


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Originally Posted By: OhioSeanOriginally Posted By: Warior Drake But then there's letting them do whatever they want to much that it offends me. That's where I draw the line. If you call that "intolerance" then fine, I'm intolerant.

Religious intolerance your previous comments were. Not "letting them do whatever they want too much" is getting closer to religious persecution. History shows where religious intolerance, oppression, and persecution lead.

Coexist.



It doesn't matter to me if they're a religion or not. I'm an athiest, all religion to me is another type of group of people. If I don't like what the guy sitting next to me is doing, but he isn't bothering me alright I tolerate it. If I don't like what the guy next to me is doing but he is bothering me, I ask him to stop.

As for Islam itself, I've only just started doing my research on the topic so I won't stand 100% behind what I'm saying. I'm just gonna put it out there so you can take what you will and when I'm comfortable backing it I'll say so. But to me it would seem that Islam is going to be a very peaceful group of minorities when they're the low minority. Once they get a bit larger they seem to start getting a little more aggressive until we get our extremely high % countries, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. No I haven't seen it with my own eyes but I have a lot of military friends who have told me that over there is far from peaceful. I'll keep digging into it, find out my facts and then pick a spot to stand, but its interesting to point out.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


JuggleSean
Ooops
Location: EARTH
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2009
Total posts: 116
Posted:Originally Posted By: Warior Drake
I won't stand 100% behind what I'm saying.

Better left unsaid.

This will be my last post in regards to this topic.

Peace be with you all.


Groovy


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Correlative data is not the same as real qualitative data.

hug


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:MNS - if that is in relation to the numbers I posted, I would like to say that the point I was trying to make is that killing people who (didn't) kill people to prove that the killing of people is wrong will get us nowhere. That there has to be a line somewhere and that this line has been crossed already many times.

WD - I cannot understand the grief those people experience who lost relatives and friends in the disaster... I never had to face the same. My condolences and compassion to you and your family.

Islam is the youngest of all world religions (I'd guess) and it's scriptures contain two parts: the early part in which Mohamed was living in peace, a merchant with a very small number of followers - and the later part, when Mohamed was facing violent resistance to his proposals and had to defend his belief with the sword. Allegedly all later verses of the Q.ran supersede the older ones... but then again: who benefits from war and violence? Only those who always benefited from it: those who are not fighting with the weapons in their hands and those staying far away from the battlefield, trying to bargain with fate for a lucrative outcome of the war they ignited.

To understand 911 it might help trying to understand what were the motifs (apart from the pure selfish ones). Unfortunately history doesn't come in a nutshell and it is not all isolated events.

All I'm trying to say is that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind... alienating all Muslims for what a few did will not lead to more understanding, better friendships and a community trying to find ways to live in peace.

This community center is creating a lot of resistance for its location - personally I understand that. It shows how much pain there still is resident in people's hearts. Maybe it's too early, maybe it's too close - and maybe this can help to understand other nations grief too. At least I hope.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Sorry, Tom, I was responding to Warior Drakes comment about muslims that are peaceful when outnumbered, yet violent to the point of terrorism when in large congregations.

hug


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:sorry for the misunderstanding - yet I know of very few people who don't value life enough when outnumbered... the vast majority of which not being alive anymore wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Kyle McLean
Kyle McLean

Living it up
Location: Brisbane/Berlin
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2003
Total posts: 364
Posted:Comic anyone?

Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Originally Posted By: FireTomthe early part in which Mohamed was living in peace, a merchant with a very small number of followers

Not ignoring the rest of the post, but no point in posting it again. As for Mohamed. I have difficulty liking a man or the religion that loves him who married a girl when she was 6 and consummated the marriage at 9. Yeah I'm usually the guy who claims "different times" and "different cultures" to justify things that would be completely immoral and illegal in today's USA but come on, 9?

@MNS And what if I turn out to be right? I said I don't stand 100% behind it "yet". Cause I'm still looking into it. It doesn't mean I don't stand behind it at all, just that it'd be foolish to back something without all the facts.


Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:"...opiate of the people." Karl Marx

That is all.


The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:one will always succeed in searching for reasons to dislike one another.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:Warior Drake, the logic presented thus far is based on a non sequiter, if you were indeed correct then it'd be pure luck, not empirical statistics. You can tell me you don't stand 100% behind it all you like, but the truth is, you've got no real evidence to support that claim as it is. Isn't it more likely to be political motivation combined with religious zealotism than it is the actual religion itself?

hug


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:WD - sorry if it appears as if you're not getting much support with what you think about the community center and surrounding events. I'm certain that more think like you do, only don't step up (here) and make themselves available for a discussion.

Thanks for showing the courage. hug

We may not agree on this one, but that doesn't make you a bad person or diminish your value as a member of this board.

Again: thanks for taking part and telling your honest opinion.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Alright! Who are you and what have you done with FT?

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:laugh3 nothing changed MNS - only realizing that it actually IS necessary to put these thoughts in writing. This partly being the achievement of Lurch, Faith and EoN (last but not least) wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:*points at Refuge_Crew* it was him! Not me!

hug


Warior Drake
Warior Drake

The Dragon Professor
Location: New York, currently homeless
Member Since: 14th Apr 2010
Total posts: 203
Posted:Thanks, FireTom. I'm pretty used to being a lone wolf on these topics. If you're enjoying this you'dve loved to see me back during the elections. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind or anything. Just don't feel like keeping it all bottled in either. Though I dunno if I should look a gift horse in the mouth, but its not so much "courage" as I've lost the ability to care about people thinking negatively about me. Though I shall admit, this does sometimes although rarely spill into positives.

Don't let your world end with you

p.s. No, just in case you're going to ask, I did not misspell Warrior, its supposed to be like that.


DJ Dantana
veteran
Location: Stillwater, Ok. USA
Member Since: 15th Aug 2001
Total posts: 1495
Posted:First of all, the developer has not bought all of the property needed for this "community center", so it's not even ready to start, nor certain it could ever be started. Second, people have begun investigating where someone with no dough came up with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ needed to do this. Surprise! He is being funded by many different groups. Some of which have terrorist ties, others... not so much. Shockingly, a Liberal owner of Fox news is one of them (a liberal (democrat) owner?!?!? of Fox news??!?!?). So, where are we? USA, baby, land of the free. Freedom of faith (even for the bad ones), freedom of speech (even for the naughty ones). Various are "reaching out" to the Muslims of faith. I for one, hope that (IF) is this is built (as a community center), it will welcome all peoples of faith, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Hinjew. One thing is certain, it has caused one more divide to be spread across USA. Which some feel is the goal of this in the first place. Divided we fall and all that. I for one urge people to ignore all that and focus on peace, love, and happiness. The only one who can destroy us is (ourselves). You may have heard about the Muslim cab driver who was stabbed during a conversation about the mosque. I for one was shocked to discover the Muslim cabbie was against the mosque (in that location, felt it would cause conflict) and the person who stabbed him was not a Muslim but was for the mosque being built there. And on that note, can someone please stop the earth, I'd like the get off. tongue2 LOL peace out.
EDITED_BY: DJ Dantana (1283825652)


we eat and we drink and we smoke and we try!


Fugee
Fugee

Cooler than bubblegum!
Location: Dallas, Texas
Member Since: 26th Feb 2010
Total posts: 2501
Posted:Did everyone in America remember to burn a quran today?

The popcorn extends life... The popcorn expands consciousness...


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