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Jeff C
Jeff C

Total nerd.
Location: New Jersey
Member Since: 28th Aug 2009
Total posts: 22
Posted:Hey all.

Not sure if this belongs under Beginner Poi or Advanced Poi, but here it goes...

I wondering what exactly it means for a poi move to be "augmented." I looked under Learn>Poi>Terminology but it wasnt defined there (and should probably be put there).

so whats it mean?


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LkL
LkL

journeyman

Member Since: 17th Aug 2009
Total posts: 79
Posted:Definition for augmented is to increase in size or to change, i do believe.
Basically from what ive collected if something is augmented its doing the same thing but in a different way.
Like the augmented five beat tutorial rives shows, is a one handed 5 beat, its still a 5 beat, but its not done the same way
as a regular 5 beat weave. there for its augmented.
Not to confuse with variation.



Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:An augmented weave is to extend a weaves number of beats without actually increasing the amount we twist up our arms... I don't think I've heard of any other poi movements being augmented other than a weave.

I'll update the terminology page with that information soonish, Jeff.


hug


Jeff C
Jeff C

Total nerd.
Location: New Jersey
Member Since: 28th Aug 2009
Total posts: 22
Posted:Ok i gotcha. Thanks to both of you. =]

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LkL
LkL

journeyman

Member Since: 17th Aug 2009
Total posts: 79
Posted:ah glad its cleared up grin


Rives
Rives

Nothing but circles and smiles...
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Member Since: 5th Jun 2009
Total posts: 118
Posted:just to pipe in, I agree completely with the defitions above, that an augmented movement would in the case of a weave would be to add a beat with out adding additional twists of the arm, but would like to note that most ANY weave can be augmented. lately I have been playing with augmented atomic weaves. you can also augment paterns and weaves like the windmill and under the arm crossers to vary your routine. grin


LkL
LkL

journeyman

Member Since: 17th Aug 2009
Total posts: 79
Posted:you should make a tutorial about the augmented atomic weave and uta crosser


Rives
Rives

Nothing but circles and smiles...
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Member Since: 5th Jun 2009
Total posts: 118
Posted:heres a link to a bunch of atomic variations including the augemented. I only really have the aumented atomic down with my left hand so dont be too disappointed when you see it.





AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:So, I've been blissfully unaware of "augmented" as poi terminology. Is it really old-school, or is this a new name?

Originally Posted By: Mother_Natures_SonAn augmented weave is to extend a weaves number of beats without actually increasing the amount we twist up our arms...

So does this mean that if I avoid further degrees of twist in my arms via a tangle very close to the handles that is also an augmented weave? My arms would have no more twist, but the poi would. So I would then be forced to untwist the poi on the other side. That means it is topologically the same as a 5-bet weave.

On the other hand, if I accomplish this via a hand-off, I'm in no way committed to having to untwist anything more than normal on the other side. This is more akin to a form of take-out. You can ad an arbitrarily number of take-outs to one side of a weave and not commit to any number of them on the other side.

So I would say based on the atomic video that "augmented" means handing the poi off between hands in order to avoid degrees of twist in the system. This is a very specific operation, that could just as easily be called something like "hand-off". "Hand-off" would be a more descriptive name of that specific operation in fact.

Augmented is a more open-ended abstract name, and is probably more suited for a more abstract concept.

I only mention to try and avoid future confusion. We see what rampant terminology expansion has done to "hybrid". It was a relatively abstract name, and inspired people to go from a relatively narrow idea to a huge explosion of what could possibly be called hybrids. I fear a name like "augmented" may beg for a similar sort of thing.

Expansion of ideas is good. One name meaning everything gets confusing!

I vote for "hand-off take-out" or "hand-off" for short.


+Alien Jon


aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Can you define what you mean by take-out?

I am not sure that I have come across it before, unless it is similar to lock out, in which case I know exactly what I think you mean. wink

And the twisting really close to the handles sounds like it might be interesting to play with. Thanks. smile

<sarcasm>I love terminology debates.</sarcasm>


'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I rather agree, Jon, thats why I don't tend to talk about "augmented" things.

I did mean precisely what you said, avoiding twisting and untwisting, I hadn't thought into what I had said enough to poke holes, ty for that.

I like "hand off" and I'll wait for this thread to rest a little while longer before I go editing the poi terminology page...

But to me a "take out" has been to remove the poi not only from their weaving pattern but to take the centre of rotation away from one another. That is to say that they move somewhat more independantly, even if they're just going to be mirroring one another. My reasoning for this is that in a wall plane, same direction flower you can stop your hands at any point and still be said to be doing a "take out" as I understand the term to mean.

Though this is of course one of the many areas where this tends to be more of a collection of vaguely similar personal definitions rather than a definitive collective definition.

Anyone got any thoughts on that?


hug


aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Hmmm.... Just clicked what the hand-off is. Something else to play with. Could be fun....

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


Rives
Rives

Nothing but circles and smiles...
Location: Tampa, FL USA
Member Since: 5th Jun 2009
Total posts: 118
Posted:I have never like the term augmented... I dont like trying to explaine it in my videos, or to people i try to show one hand moves to in real life. The term was fulled from the original "augmented five beat" video posted by onewheeldave on home of poi. For a lack of a better word, I ran with it. I think, for awhile, it functioned as a way of discribing a weave that has a hand off, or collection point for both poi, then redistrutes them and resumes the movement. I like the term 'hand off', but to me it sounds alot like the poi are just trading hands. I have always thought about these points in augment weaves like the gathering points in juggling.
at the point where both poi are in the same hand, they are not doing any type of weave, the only thing that is known is that they are split time same directing with both poi in one hand. any one who plays with medtior can tell you that this leave alot of possobilities.
As for the winding and unwinding movement jon was talking about, that reminds me of how one would had additional beats meteor weaves with out doing hand rolls. This in the past has been more of a meteor only movement because it cannot be done with and staff, and most poi spinners were not gathering there poi into one hand. It would be nice if these were called meteor spirals, or continous meteor spirals, because you can keep the spiral going if you simply keep switching which side of your body your hands are one.
But thats off topic, I feel these should be called gathering points or gathers for short. the term is not open ended, the poi are 'gathering' in one hand, it does have to be applied to any perticular weave or movement but can rather be added at any point, no matter diretion or timing. This term already has an understud meaning in prop manipulation, and I think we should use it, what about you?
sorry about the long response.



AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:To me take-out = lock-out: which is pausing in the middle of (locking out of) a move to do some static spins. It got explored early on from weaves. Some people, who were more flower focused, thought of the act of pausing in each flower hand position as a lock-out.

+Alien Jon


aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:Cool. That is what I thought it was, thanks.

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


Mother_Natures_Son
Mother_Natures_Son

Rampant whirler.
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia!
Member Since: 1st Aug 2007
Total posts: 2418
Posted:I took it to be the same as lockouts to me as well, but with same direction flowers, could they not be described as a series of lockouts in different positions?? After all, if your hand was in constant motion it would become a cycloid (? on the term)

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aston
aston

Unofficial Chairperson of Squirrel Defense League
Location: South Africa
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2007
Total posts: 4061
Posted:I suppose it depends on how definite you are are with the actual lockout? If you are barely stopping, it would not really be locking out as such. But I definitely pause for an instant or two....

'We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad." [said the Cat.]
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "Or you wouldn't have come here."
- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures In Wonderland


AlienJon
AlienJon

enthusiast
Location: Everywhere
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 290
Posted:My take on it is for a lock-out flower you really quantize the transition form longarm to pause for the lockout. So your arms act very "clock-work". On the other extreme, if you really don't let your arms stop, you get more of a cycloid effect. It is much more prevalent with a 2 petal inspin. Most people are somewhere in the middle of these 2 extremes with their inspin flowers.

+Alien Jon