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Forums > Social Discussion > Expert? What's your definition?

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I've recently been coming across people who claim to be experts, or accused of being.



A woman who has held her job role for only a year and doesn't know the full range of the materials yet was brought into a meeting as an "expert". She was aghast and horrified about it, and deferred to someone with 25 years experience, who wisely deferred to someone with more.

This, I admire.



There is a photographic exhibition going on in town about a historical and well documented art form (american burlesque). Instead of going to people who have been performing it for years, who know the history inside and out, they called on a local pin-up photographer to give the "expert" introduction to the exhibit. I know the man. I know the art. I know, as does he, that he doesn't know enough about the history of it to give a good speech on that topic. Yet, he took the job anyway.

This repulses me.



Then I have come across people who say "4/2 years ago I was introduced to....and now I am an expert". It's happened a few times and every time I think it is a crock of...well you get the idea.



To me, an expert is someone who knows the most on a subject. I do not think that a couple years will allow that...even of straight study. I do not think that taking photos of a similar nature will allow that, or being near an art, or even working in a specific field.



In fact, I truly and honestly believe there are very few experts in things in the world, and those people who are tend to be married to those things they are experts in with little time for anything else.



Professional in something? Absolutely. Knowledgable? Yes.

Expert...I have so many doubts when that word is thrown on the table.



What are your thoughts?

EDITED_BY: Pele (1195152036)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: PK_


She was shown a glimpse of a chess board with 20+ pieces on it and had to remake that same set up in front of her on her board.. she did it because the pieces were placed in chess patterns, but when she had to try it again with a set up made by a non chess player, the pieces were in no particular order... she couldn't do it and gave up.

So what does that tell us?.




That you should have read the Scientific America article before posting?

I mean, it's only the third time I've posted both of those links... le sigh.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted: Written by: mcp


 Written by: PK_


She was shown a glimpse of a chess board with 20+ pieces on it and had to remake that same set up in front of her on her board.. she did it because the pieces were placed in chess patterns, but when she had to try it again with a set up made by a non chess player, the pieces were in no particular order... she couldn't do it and gave up.

So what does that tell us?.




That you should have read the Scientific America article before posting?

I mean, it's only the third time I've posted both of those links... le sigh.



I did read it in fact, considering I'm posting about some thing that is not mentioned in said article but along those same lines makes my post relevant as a response.

So sigh all you like at me mcp.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: PK_


I did read it in fact, considering I'm posting about some thing that is not mentioned in said article but along those same lines makes my post relevant as a response.

So sigh all you like at me mcp.



No PK, clearly you didn't.

Quoting the article:

Another reason why cognitive scientists chose chess as their model--and not billiards, say, or bridge--is the game's reputation as, in German poet Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's words, "the touchstone of the intellect." The feats of chess masters have long been ascribed to nearly magical mental powers. This magic shines brightest in the so-called blindfold games in which the players are not allowed to see the board. In 1894 French psychologist Alfred Binet, the co-inventor of the first intelligence test, asked chess masters to describe how they played such games. He began with the hypothesis that they achieved an almost photographic image of the board, but he soon concluded that the visualization was much more abstract. Rather than seeing the knight's mane or the grain of the wood from which it is made, the master calls up only a general knowledge of where the piece stands in relation to other elements of the position. It is the same kind of implicit knowledge that the commuter has of the stops on a subway line.

The blindfolded master supplements such knowledge with details of the game at hand as well as with recollections of salient aspects of past games. Let us say he has somehow forgotten the precise position of a pawn. He can find it, as it were, by considering the stereotyped strategy of the opening--a well-studied phase of the game with a relatively limited number of options. Or he can remember the logic behind one of his earlier moves--say, by reasoning: "I could not capture his bishop two moves ago; therefore, that pawn must have been standing in the way...." He does not have to remember every detail at all times, because he can reconstruct any particular detail whenever he wishes by tapping a well-organized system of connections.


...


Chunking Theory
In the 1960s Herbert A. Simon and William Chase, both at Carnegie Mellon University, tried to get a better understand-ing of expert memory by studying its limitations. Picking up where de Groot left off, they asked players of various strengths to reconstruct chess positions that had been artificially devised--that is, with the pieces placed randomly on the board--rather than reached as the result of master play. The correlation between game-playing strength and the accuracy of the players' recall was much weak-er with the random positions than with the authentic ones.

Chess memory was thus shown to be even more specific than it had seemed, being tuned not merely to the game itself but to typical chess positions. These experiments corroborated earlier studies that had demonstrated convincingly that ability in one area tends not to transfer to another. American psychologist Edward Thorndike first noted this lack of transference over a century ago, when he showed that the study of Latin, for instance, did not improve command of English and that geometric proofs do not teach the use of logic in daily life.

Simon explained the masters' relative weakness in reconstructing artificial chess positions with a model based on meaningful patterns called chunks. He invoked the concept to explain how chess masters can manipulate vast amounts of stored information, a task that would seem to strain the working memory. Psychologist George Miller of Princeton University famously estimated the limits of working memory--the scratch pad of the mind--in a 1956 paper entitled "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two." Miller showed that people can contemplate only five to nine items at a time. By packing hierarchies of information into chunks, Simon argued, chess masters could get around this limitation, because by using this method, they could access five to nine chunks rather than the same number of smaller details.

Take the sentence "Mary had a little lamb." The number of information chunks in this sentence depends on one's knowledge of the poem and the English language. For most native speakers of English, the sentence is part of a much larger chunk, the familiar poem. For someone who knows English but not the poem, the sentence is a single, self-contained chunk. For someone who has memorized the words but not their meaning, the sentence is five chunks, and it is 18 chunks for someone who knows the letters but not the words.

In the context of chess, the same differences can be seen between novices and grandmasters. To a beginner, a position with 20 chessmen on the board may contain far more than 20 chunks of information, because the pieces can be placed in so many configurations. A grandmaster, however, may see one part of the position as "fianchettoed bishop in the castled kingside," together with a "blockaded king's-Indian-style pawn chain," and thereby cram the entire position into perhaps five or six chunks. By measuring the time it takes to commit a new chunk to memory and the number of hours a player must study chess before reaching grandmaster strength, Simon estimated that a typical grandmaster has access to roughly 50,000 to 100,000 chunks of chess information. A grandmaster can retrieve any of these chunks from memory simply by looking at a chess position, in the same way that most native English speakers can recite the poem "Mary had a little lamb" after hearing just the first few words.

...


Although nobody has yet been able to predict who will become a great expert in any field, a notable experiment has shown the possibility of deliberately creating one. L�szl� Polg�r, an educator in Hungary, homeschooled his three daughters in chess, assigning as much as six hours of work a day, producing one international master and two grandmasters--the strongest chess-playing siblings in history. The youngest Polg�r, 30-year-old Judit, is now ranked 14th in the world.

The Polg�r experiment proved two things: that grandmasters can be reared and that women can be grandmasters. It is no coincidence that the incidence of chess prodigies multiplied after L�szl� Polg�r published a book on chess education. The number of musical prodigies underwent a similar increase after Mozart's father did the equivalent two centuries earlier.

Do I have to spell it out to you?


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic


Total posts: 4991
Posted:Post deleted by PK_
EDITED_BY: PK_ (1195233976)


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:end tangent
end hijack
end insults


back to topic


I think that experts are created, designed if you will. Some by choice, some by pressure.

Do you think experts can be created without knowing?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted: Written by: Pele


end tangent
end hijack
end insults


back to topic



clap hug
 Written by: Pele


I think that experts are created, designed if you will. Some by choice, some by pressure.

Do you think experts can be created without knowing?




if the person isn't selfabsorbed then i think it could be doable. i'm still not sure how and if it would happen 100% i think its because i am still strugling with how the term expert site with me.


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Where did the whole jealousy/anger/resentment thing come from? Especially seeing as the whole argument seems to be over spinning expertise/bragging rights...

Playing with socks/sticks/flames and wiggling really isn't important enough to get worked up over... Is it?

wink


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted: Written by: Pele





I think that experts are created, designed if you will. Some by choice, some by pressure.



Do you think experts can be created without knowing?





how about pushey parents, or the old russian federation gymnastic coaches they created the very best young female gymnasts over quite a long period.



I think you CAN create experts of the ilk Meg talks about. however the type which are knowledge based experts have to want to do it. I'm not saying the old Russian regime used girls who didn't want to but I think the pressure was a deciding factor.



sorry pele to your earlier statement about not bringing up performers PK did in his first post. I stuck with that because I have a better knowledge of that than burlesque you might say I had a greater level of expertise wink

EDITED_BY: Mynci (1195237868)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I agree with you Froggy about the term not sitting well.

I think what I was getting at is, would it be possible for someone to just have a passion, an interest in something that they study and work and eventually share with others. But when they share it with others, they have progressed so much that they have become an "expert", according to peers or some such, without even knowing it?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:I'd reckon so - it's quite possible that you forget how much time and effort you've put into something and start taking it for granted, while those who've spent their time on something else consider it to be quite advanced.

Especially if you don't have a great deal of contact with your peers.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted: Written by: Pele


I agree with you Froggy about the term not sitting well.

I think what I was getting at is, would it be possible for someone to just have a passion, an interest in something that they study and work and eventually share with others. But when they share it with others, they have progressed so much that they have become an "expert", according to peers or some such, without even knowing it?



Hmmm i have been thinking abou this all night, i wasn't sleeping well anyway so thought i may as well.
when it comes to how they stand with their peers then yes i do believe they can. i guess in comparrason to the others at the juggling club i am the poi expert (nope still doesn't sit right) but when it comes to spinning with my other spinny friends i am certainly not, so it would depend on where you are.
as for the russian gymnast subject, they are trained as experts as are the ones from china but to what price? there are alot of children that are sold to the gymnastic schools and are put through lots of pain most of which i don't think are very ethical and they don't have a very long career frown


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:*Skips the muppet attitude at first*

Pele, it has been in another thread that you told us about a completely incompetent spinner on stage, admitting that he sucks and doing it anyway. Too tired now to dig it out.

Without offence, I don't think earning your respect is relevant in this and it rarely is about "the best person deserves the job" but "the one who markets himself the best" (as clearly observed in more than one presidential election).

Einstein has not been an "expert" but came up with some of the most stunning and most relevant theories of scientific history - a similar thing might just have happened (Surfer Duded figures out the Universe).

Expertise on the other hand might not get you, or mankind a single step further - as countless exampless of narrow minded experts prove.

In this regard I have to strongly disagree with some content of the articles, MCP provided:

 Written by: How to be an expert

Seriously. How many people think they've missed their opportunity to be a musician, or an expert golfer, or even a chess grand master because they didn't start when they were young? Or because they simply lacked natural talent? Those people are (mostly) wrong. According to some brain scientists, almost anyone can develop world-class (or at least top expertise) abilities in things for which they aren't physically impaired. Apparently God-given talent, natural "gifts", and genetic predispositions just aren't all they're cracked up to be. Or at least not in the way most of us always imagined. It turns out that rather than being naturally gifted at music or math or chess or whatever, a superior performer most likely has a gift for concentration, dedication, and a simple desire to keep getting better. In theory, again, anyone willing to do what's required to keep getting better WILL get better.

Maybe the "naaturally talented artist" was simply the one who practiced a hell of a lot more. Or rather, a hell of a lot more deliberately.



Another "American Dream" scam that I don't buy - apart from being an opinion only (as this, my post is too), quoting or referring to (recounts) 2 experts opinions... ubblol

I have come across students who I have been teaching the same thing in the same way and it took one longer than the other - which in some cases and the long run would even turn around on the student: Some had persisted and wanted to figure it out so badly, that they still do spin - whereas others dropped out, because it all came too easy...

Lifes' experiences show that much contradiction that the entire "how to become and stay an expert (AKA nerd)" debate starts bothering me.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:For once I have to skip back into MCP's rant (and that's exclusively for you):



 Written by: MCP



What I find stupid and kinda sickening, is people that stay on HoP long after their passion for spinning has cooled. Then they expect respect just because they learned before everyone else? Any noob poi spinner could get to a so called 'jedi' level in a few months nowadays. So now these 'elder' spinners with crappy skills, just sit on HoP with nothing better to do than get jealous and irate with the people that continued to practise, while they were off doing other things. I mean, it's their choice to decide what they want to do in their life, so they can choose to want to be good at poi and practise it, or they can choose to stay at a lesser level and not practise.



These Jedi had all the advantages you could want, namely, doing it before anybody else was, they could explore entirely undiscovered areas, and pass on the benefits of their learning to little noobs spinners. Mostly was they did thou was get to a certain level and decide they were good enough, and stopped practising, or maybe they decided there was nothing left to learn and never bothered to explore new movements.





meditate inhales and gets into the line of fire:



Dunno who you're referring to with your rant and where you got your entire attitude from, but tell you that much: my passion for spinning (fire) indeed has cooled over the years for many reasons. One of them being the fumes and burning fossil fuels for leisure.



Myself took a three year break from spinning as a matter of fact - and I don't give a dime for your respect, because clearly (in this particular subject) you have an attitude that repulses me. In the meantime I'm back into practicing almost daily (which ain't easy as I had to re-learn a few things or change my "conditioning", like "normal spinning" vs. "isolating")



Evolution takes a certain road and we all have to accept that. Personally I do and I am not dwelling over "lost opportunities to become and remain an icon" (anymore wink ). But if it has not been for some of "us", standing all the attitude of "real jugglers" on the EJC's 8 or so years back, patiently teaching all the noobs for free and at some stage dropping out because we had to face severe criticism of our partners who wanted to start a family and would not believe that "playing with fire" could feed a family (as all those newly trained noobs spun fire for free or drinks only) maybe "spinning" would not be as it is today... ?



Maybe it would, but does it mean that "we" (dinosaurs) are no(t longer) welcomed here on HoP? Dope! I really don't appreciate Facebook and Myspace as much as I do appreciate HoP... guess I'm doomed... bye then.... *swings out*



Hang on... *swings back in*



Maybe you just get your backside over to NZ and encounter traditional, real tribal poi spinners with your attitude and high performance modern day spinning technique, tell them that they are out-of-date (after you learned proper spelling) face to face??? Same would apply to all aboriginal "knowledge" and their "demand for respect"...



Get a grip on yourself, man.... umm rolleyes



*exhales and faces the cold, lonely night*

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1195319964)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:. ubblol- interesting topic, brings me to introspection.



Poi-ple thinking they deserve respect...well I have a personal insight to that. When I caught myself trying to learning moves with the specific intent of learning stuff because others could do it a nd I wanted to learn the latest and greatest and not get left behind- I stopped cuz I realised I was trying to earn respect for twirling a bit of fire around on the end of a chain. I have more respect for an average person who steps into an argument with a woman on the street who is being abused - or someone that stops to help someone who has broken down in their car or whatever, than some bored uni student who should probably have spent more time studying(me). So then I aligned my behaviour to suit and Im happier with the change. I know that there are a lot of people that take themselves really seriously with twirling and I have a sneaky suspicion that for some it's because it improves their self-worth - I know for a time, it did for me...even tho I am one of those old-skoolers that doesnt practise enough anymore ubblol and has crap skills etc etc smile



I dont ask for your respect for nothing - either I earn it or I dont (and I probly wont with my shonky old skool twirling skillz wink)



but I mean really...c'mon is this conversation serious? respect honesty, respect commitment to good values, lying down in front of Bulldozers or whatever...there are some really good things people do that earn respect - but IMHO how much time you've spent engaging in your favourite hobby probly doesn't rate too highly with me.



Don't read me wrong - I think if you've made *real* sacrifices in your life to truly push the realms of spinning because you believe in growing the body of knowledge then I can respect that. Hanging out on beaches, going to parties and generally having an awesome time however isn't how I'd characterize major sacrifice smile



:aside - obviously I've got a paper due in a week...two opinionated posts in one day!

EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1195468047)


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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ACT
SILVER Member since Nov 2007

ACT

enthusiast
Location: I am in a world you do not wan...

Total posts: 318
Posted:Expert= Something I am not

Professional= Also something I am not

Genuine= That has me written all over it

Expert someone who has dedicated years to studying what they do even if they DO NOT have a degree.

For example Ghost hunter or paranormal researchers. Its a science combined with a faith combined with psychological processes that may or may not contain real psychological diseases. I guess I should explain this thought a bit more.......

Ghost hunter science= Dismissing much evidence because of conditions. IE water moisture in the air, reflective light, rustling of pants which may create whispering sounds on recordings. The Science part is using technology to obtain hours of information to try to prove the paranormal. Most of the time analyzing it to be false positives but keeping an analytical mind to know when you are processing information that what you are seeing may or may not be paranormal.

The Faith= Faith in what you dont see, like God or Gods.

Psychological side= You see things but in the process you get more involved an see more things. Therefore slipping into the world of paranormal further and dismissing the scientific side of what you are seeing. In the process it may cause you to see more and could result in a mind snap. There are cases of people snapping because of what they think they see and making them more paranoid of "ghosts." In fact there is a house in Ohio where a woman went crazy because she thought she was being chased by ghosts or demons and she nailed doors everywhere in the house to trick them.

Now I am not an expert on the subject of the paranormal but I have studied alot and can hold my ground on most debates. A professional in this study would not debate but instead just listen and draw their own conclusions, then support or dismiss the facts with what they use to study the area.

Well thats just my point of view on the subject.


Don't hate me because I am different, hate me because I still think I am better then you!

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: FireTom

In this regard I have to strongly disagree with some content of the articles, MCP provided:

Written by: How to be an expert

Seriously. How many people think they've missed their opportunity to be a musician, or an expert golfer, or even a chess grand master because they didn't start when they were young? Or because they simply lacked natural talent? Those people are (mostly) wrong. According to some brain scientists, almost anyone can develop world-class (or at least top expertise) abilities in things for which they aren't physically impaired. Apparently God-given talent, natural "gifts", and genetic predispositions just aren't all they're cracked up to be. Or at least not in the way most of us always imagined. It turns out that rather than being naturally gifted at music or math or chess or whatever, a superior performer most likely has a gift for concentration, dedication, and a simple desire to keep getting better. In theory, again, anyone willing to do what's required to keep getting better WILL get better.

Maybe the "naaturally talented artist" was simply the one who practiced a hell of a lot more. Or rather, a hell of a lot more deliberately.



Another "American Dream" scam that I don't buy - apart from being an opinion only (as this, my post is too), quoting or referring to (recounts) 2 experts opinions...

I have come across students who I have been teaching the same thing in the same way and it took one longer than the other - which in some cases and the long run would even turn around on the student: Some had persisted and wanted to figure it out so badly, that they still do spin - whereas others dropped out, because it all came too easy...

Lifes' experiences show that much contradiction that the entire "how to become and stay an expert (AKA nerd)" debate starts bothering me.




You see, it says the exact opposite to me, it says that you don't need to start at four and be pressured by your parents into being something, tennis player / chess player / music whatever. If you don't need to have started at four, you can start now. Four year old's have no special 'learning' skill other than a lot of time to practise, and an open attitude. (not: "I can't do that, but I'll give it a shot", but "teach me that!")

The motivation required to learn something is something else entirely, but I firmly believe that if you WANT to do something, and you practise it for 20 years, mindfully, then you will be some sort of expert at the end of it, if not just shithot at it.

You can talk about the idea of motivation, but I don't that is what the article or the thread is about.


...


 Written by: FireTom


Dunno who you're referring to with your rant and where you got your entire attitude from, but tell you that much: my passion for spinning (fire) indeed has cooled over the years for many reasons. One of them being the fumes and burning fossil fuels for leisure.




Well, I don't spin fire apart from for gigs. So my passion for spinning has no relation to fossil fuel usage. You should try spinning for fun more often, and less fire.

 Written by: FireTom


But if it has not been for some of "us", standing all the attitude of "real jugglers" on the EJC's 8 or so years back, patiently teaching all the noobs for free and at some stage dropping out because we had to face severe criticism of our partners who wanted to start a family and would not believe that "playing with fire" could feed a family (as all those newly trained noobs spun fire for free or drinks only) maybe "spinning" would not be as it is today... ?




What is this supposed to mean? Maybe if you had taken on board the attitude of the real jugglers, you would be much better now, and spinning wouldn't STILL be disrespected by them. Most of us here have taught people for free and don't have to crow about it. Especially in the staff world, we all know where that road leads. So what are you trying to say? If you hadn't stopped for three years, maybe spinning wouldn't be like it is today? Maybe if you'd take the path less trod, that it would be easier for people to do the same nowadays, but you didn't, so it's not?

 Written by: FireTom

Maybe you just get your backside over to NZ and encounter traditional, real tribal poi spinners with your attitude and high performance modern day spinning technique, tell them that they are out-of-date (after you learned proper spelling) face to face??? Same would apply to all aboriginal "knowledge" and their "demand for respect"...



Why would I bother? I don't care about poi that much. However I did visit the 'Traditional' Samoan Fire Knife Championships, talked to the world champion, learned about fire knife dancing, taught him some contact doubles, watched the competition. Didn't really feel the need to 'force' my style of stick manipulation on them, thanks. Thought about entering the competition next year, and spinning in a samoan style to suit. But that's all just piss in the wind. Who cares what I actually do, clearly you have me all pegged down already. Maybe I could decide that plaid is no longer cool and force all the scottish to adopt some other pattern as thier kilt design. Sweet!

In fact, I can't seem to discern an argument in your post at all.

So, you don't have my respect, big deal you say? So do I.

But what I really dislike, is that you seem to just casually flick back and forth from the spinning arts into the real world. Either it's just a fiery gimmick you can use for soulless corporate whoring, or it's an ART. It's something you do because your alive and you want to show yourself and something beautiful to the rest of the world. I like to treat spinning with the seriousness of a real art, (well at least stick manipulation) so I take it seriously, and maybe other people will get that idea too and in the end, it'll become a real art. And not just a stupidly easy offshoot of the juggling world.

So I don't like everybody in the world that picks up a spinning prop. Thank god. Why should I? Just cos it's some bullshit hippy attitude? No thanks.


...


Good post josh.

Josh: If I wanted to do something useful and helpful with my life, I would be doing that instead of spinning. I don't believe in committing just a little bit of time or money to a cause from afar, and I think that to really change the world, you have to commit your entire self to it. So if I wanted to improve the world in some concrete way, I would be out doing that, (becoming a politician, disaster relief etc...) but I don't clearly, cos I'm not. (But things can change, so maybe when I'm older.)

That's precisely my problem with most spinning today, it's treated as a hobby. It might be a bit stupid to treat spinning as an art, but then, that's me = stupid! It's like expecting a hobbiest painter to become the next leonardo di vinci. Or someone that goes to a aerobics class a week to turn into nureyev. It's just plain not going to happen.

If spinners had the same intense practising attitude as jugglers, they might actually be good, shame they're generally hobbyist hippies (in both senses) and don't seem to comprehend the idea of a full year of dedicated practise, never mind ten. So the spinning world stays stuck at this crappy level, crappy fire spin after crappy fire spin, and it seems to ignore any real progress made for at least a couple of years, before it catches on, and then people complain it's tech and not dancy enough. I might as well shoot myself now.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted: Written by: mcp



Josh: If I wanted to do something useful and helpful with my life, I would be doing that instead of spinning. I don't believe in committing just a little bit of time or money to a cause from afar, and I think that to really change the world, you have to commit your entire self to it.





I guess I should make it clear that my comments aren't directed at you - they were mainly introspective...however I've certainly experienced a bit of the 'I demand respect' attitude in both aggressive and passive aggressive modes more than a few times...and I've not really experienced it from the people who I think actually do deserve respect. At least...they were polite enough to hide it! wink

 Written by: mcp



That's precisely my problem with most spinning today, it's treated as a hobby. It might be a bit stupid to treat spinning as an art, but then, that's me = stupid! It's like expecting a hobbiest painter to become the next leonardo di vinci. Or someone that goes to a aerobics class a week to turn into nureyev. It's just plain not going to happen.





but you cant be angry for people just wanting to have a laf doing a roll or two and not wanting to be olympic gymnasts.

 Written by: mcp



If spinners had the same intense practising attitude as jugglers, they might actually be good, shame they're generally hobbyist hippies (in both senses) and don't seem to comprehend the idea of a full year of dedicated practise, never mind ten.




neither do most jugglers. I mean seriously - how many jugglers can run five balls? not many. but if you go to a convention theres 100s. and most people I know who are good jugglers dont think running 5 should take more than 6 months of solid practise...why cant most jugglers do it then? they are hobbyists as well.

 Written by: mcp



So the spinning world stays stuck at this crappy level, crappy fire spin after crappy fire spin, and it seems to ignore any real progress made for at least a couple of years, before it catches on,



but catch on it does...and relatively quickly too IMHO
 Written by: mcp


and then people complain it's tech and not dancy enough. I might as well shoot myself now.


but youre getting more dancy all the time! dont stop now! smile

I know this is a serious conversation...just trying to lighten the mood.


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:JOSH! you must respect me!!!!!
spank

(roflmao)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted: Written by: Pyrolific


...and I've not really experienced it from the people who I think actually do deserve respect. At least...they were polite enough to hide it! wink




tongue

hug


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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: Pyrolific


I guess I should make it clear that my comments aren't directed at you - they were mainly introspective...however I've certainly experienced a bit of the 'I demand respect' attitude in both aggressive and passive aggressive modes more than a few times...and I've not really experienced it from the people who I think actually do deserve respect. At least...they were polite enough to hide it! wink





Yeah I knows. Just cos there weren't any smilies don't mean I was being all agressive and defensive... thou I was in some bits, but not to you, I was railing against the WORLD! man.

 Written by: Pyrolific



but you cant be angry for people just wanting to have a laf doing a roll or two and not wanting to be olympic gymnasts.





I so can! wink Sure doing something for fun is fine. But it's the complaining afterwards that you didn't choose to do it as a career because life got in the way... Well A) you could only do a roll and a cartwheel to begin with, why on earth did you think you could make the olympics? Why complain about it online in a gymnasts forum, why hang around in there, since you can't do anything, in terms of gymnastics, and why expect an olympic gymnast to give a [censored] about your opinion? (obviously purely hypothetical, and not a metaphor for you.) (I wish poi and staff were as advanced as gymnastics... frown )

 Written by: josh


neither do most jugglers. I mean seriously - how many jugglers can run five balls? not many. but if you go to a convention theres 100s. and most people I know who are good jugglers dont think running 5 should take more than 6 months of solid practise...why cant most jugglers do it then? they are hobbyists as well.




Er, most of the people I call jugglers can... Either that or they're ridiculous at three objects, or some other form of manipulation.

Yeah, I think that too, that 5 *clubs* should take about 6 months, at the minimum... If you're dedicated.

On the other side, most jugglers I know think learning poi takes about a day of practise. And advanced stuff, about a month, why can't most poi spinners do it then?

I have the unfortunate position of being one of the best poi spinners in scotland, which wouldn't be the case if any of the noob poi spinners had been dedicated enough to practise as hard at poi as you need to practise at juggling to run 5 clubs in 6 months. (Or even 5 balls)

 Written by: josh


but youre getting more dancy all the time! dont stop now! smile

I know this is a serious conversation...just trying to lighten the mood.



Awwwwwwwww! redface

My vitriolic sarcastic wit has all dried up in the face of a well thought out post with a bit of flattery at the end of it.

I feel so used. wink


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:LOL My work here is done smile



(til tommorrow wink)

EDITED_BY: Pyrolific (1195473144)


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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

I like to treat spinning with the seriousness of a real art, (well at least stick manipulation) so I take it seriously, and maybe other people will get that idea too and in the end, it'll become a real art.



ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

This is the funniest thing i've read for a very very long time. Thanks Meg its cheered me up loads.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:May you be shielded against the erraneous belief that you will become a popstar (just by trying "hard enough"), when you in fact have no voice, no presence on stage and lack the looks. I mean after all: what is this about?

Listen, I don't need (your) respect and I don't *need* a jugglers attitude (trust me, things got MUCH better on EJC's in the past few years, with the community of sockies growing exponentially). "Contact" might actually even be a fusion of "real juggling" and "spinning".

Yes, four year olds DO have "special learning skills": an open, unoccupied mind. It's just easier for them to pick up anything (after all to my experience) than for say a seventy four year old - apart from physical limitations.

No, life is too great (for me) to be explored through spinning alone. I love doing it but I don't have to compete with others all the time to become the "high priest of poi". In fact I don't even mind whether someone applauds or not anymore - I mainly spin for my self.

But yes, I do love putting a smile on peoples face and thanks for the advice to spin more often...

 Written by: MCP

If you hadn't stopped for three years, maybe spinning wouldn't be like it is today? Maybe if you'd take the path less trod, that it would be easier for people to do the same nowadays, but you didn't, so it's not?



ubblol how vein do you think I am ubblol

 Written by: MCP

So, you don't have my respect, big deal you say? So do I.



confused shrug Am I talking gibberish? No deal at all, sweet.

But what are you trying to say now?

 Written by: MCP

Why would I bother? I don't care about poi that much.



vs.

 Written by: MCP

I like to treat spinning with the seriousness of a real art, (well at least stick manipulation) so I take it seriously, and maybe other people will get that idea too and in the end, it'll become a real art. And not just a stupidly easy offshoot of the juggling world.



confused You have not seen what I have seen, otherwise you would not say what you said. Spinning IS art - maybe not mine, but I know ppl whose spinning I regard to be superart.

Okay, well it's 11pm, maybe my attention span is diminished and I can't make sense. But this one:

 Written by: MCP

But what I really dislike, is that you seem to just casually flick back and forth from the spinning arts into the real world. Either it's just a fiery gimmick you can use for soulless corporate whoring, or it's an ART. It's something you do because your alive and you want to show yourself and something beautiful to the rest of the world.



Is what really pi**es me off. Wtf are you trying to say and who tf are you to judge my way of life as long as I am not endangering my fellow citizens health? You're entitled to your opinion, no worries I'm not taking that away from you. But for me, spinning is part of the "real world", not a "fiery gimmick" and definitely not for "soulless corporate whoring". umm You may be a nice person in real life, but in here I can't notice any of that. shrug (Whereas using "fiery gimmicks for soulless corporate whoring" might be an artform in itself - if this would be on topic, I would ask you to explain yourself, but this way I really can pass).

IMHO "experts" are useless anyways, if they can't explain themself or pass their knowledge onto others. How many important theories needed (posthumous) explanation to get accessed by the general public? Just look at philosophy (students) and how they try to say the simplest things in the most incomprehendable way...

So setting all personal animosities aside: You really believe that a mute can be a singer, if only trying hard enough? Or that a 70 year old can go to the regular olympics (as an athlete), if dedicating "enough" time? These are just examples. Why would a dog start learning freediving?

Expertise (IMHO) is relative. Respect can be gracefully accepted, but not demanded and some people should note that they insult others (even without intent) - trust me: btdt wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted: Written by: FireTom

So setting all personal animosities aside: You really believe that a mute can be a singer, if only trying hard enough? Or that a 70 year old can go to the regular olympics (as an athlete), if dedicating "enough" time? These are just examples. Why would a dog start learning freediving?




Ok, Im going to stay FAR away from the rest of that conversation, but I do believe that a deaf person can be a great composer of music. Wasn't there someone once like that? wink And a color-blind person can be a great painter (the wonders of monochrome neutrals). An armless person can be an amazing writer.

Dedication may not overcome all obstacles, but it should surely not be disregarded, as the fruits of one's labours can always be found in the most unexpected of places.

meditate


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:nice squid smile

id like to add that...

in the real world (i.e. the part of it that dosnt spin poi or frequent HoP), fire is a gimmick used for corperate events to make peaople feel like thier money has been spent.

never forget that to everyone else its just a trick, even the aformentioned deaf composer never realy did any more than write 'a few good tunes' in some peaoples estimation and 'a load of classical sh1te' according to a lot of other people.

its not special, its just entertaining, in small doses. biggrin

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Mako


Mako

member


Total posts: 53
Posted:I met a guy who makes some of the best wines (I've tasted - I'm still no expert-heaven forbid!) in Australia. He is allergic to alcohol, and therefore cannot taste the wine and works mainly using smell, but this is something he has learned to do over many years.

In response to a couple of pages back, no I'm not a Sommelier, I work for a large wine importing/ mail order company, and I give customers impartial advice about which wines they should buy (weddings, parties etc.) and also deal with any quality problems with the wine.
First part good...second part sucky!


If a tree falls in a forest with no one to witness it...do the other trees laugh?

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: FireTom


May you be shielded against the erraneous belief that you will become a popstar (just by trying "hard enough"), when you in fact have no voice, no presence on stage and lack the looks. I mean after all: what is this about?




Wow, after this sentence, I'd almost suspect you weren't a hippy. Who cares about being a popstar? I mean if you want something real, you can go ahead and do it, for yourself. Architect, master guitarist or musician, physicist, chess grandmaster, go master or whatever. You can start anytime, and 20 years later, with mindful practise you'll be great/expert at it. Even if you never design a real building, play in a band or whatever. If you want to, and you have your senses, and your arms and legs you can. (Or even without some vital sense...) Sure you might not be a pro tennis player, like the williams sisters, or famous, like the polgar sisters, or a phenonmenon like tiger woods, but at least you'll have the choice, which I doubt they did, starting at at like age 4 and all. But age didn't stop Nureyev, cos he started training at 17, really far too old. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Nureyev Yay! Almost adult role models!



 Written by: FireTom


Yes, four year olds DO have "special learning skills": an open, unoccupied mind. It's just easier for them to pick up anything (after all to my experience) than for say a seventy four year old - apart from physical limitations.




Didn't I say this already? To be honest, any adult can get back to that attitude with a little practise, and usually they have far greater reserves of concentration, motivation and analytical skills. Well, hopefully at least.

Go on and believe if you want that kids have some great mind set that makes them super learners. I prefer to think that I can learn that fast too, just by being playful and open to new ideas.


 Written by: FireTom


ubblol how vein do you think I am ubblol




You miss the point. I was saying that if people had more 'role models' of professional spinners back then, then maybe more new spinners would trust that they could use what they enjoy to live... And the world would be a better place, and rabbits would joyously hop everywhere, and trucks would slam on their brakes to stop for them when they crossed motorways.

 Written by: FireTom


 Written by: MCP

Why would I bother? I don't care about poi that much.



vs.

 Written by: MCP

I like to treat spinning with the seriousness of a real art, (well at least stick manipulation) so I take it seriously, and maybe other people will get that idea too and in the end, it'll become a real art. And not just a stupidly easy offshoot of the juggling world.



confused You have not seen what I have seen, otherwise you would not say what you said. Spinning IS art - maybe not mine, but I know ppl whose spinning I regard to be superart.




Well didn't the 'stick manipulation' give it away? What do I care about poi? Spinning isn't equal to poi alone.

 Written by: FireTom


 Written by: MCP

But what I really dislike, is that you seem to just casually flick back and forth from the spinning arts into the real world. Either it's just a fiery gimmick you can use for soulless corporate whoring, or it's an ART. It's something you do because your alive and you want to show yourself and something beautiful to the rest of the world.



Is what really pi**es me off. Wtf are you trying to say and who tf are you to judge my way of life as long as I am not endangering my fellow citizens health? You're entitled to your opinion, no worries I'm not taking that away from you. But for me, spinning is part of the "real world", not a "fiery gimmick" and definitely not for "soulless corporate whoring". umm You may be a nice person in real life, but in here I can't notice any of that. shrug (Whereas using "fiery gimmicks for soulless corporate whoring" might be an artform in itself - if this would be on topic, I would ask you to explain yourself, but this way I really can pass).

IMHO "experts" are useless anyways, if they can't explain themself or pass their knowledge onto others. How many important theories needed (posthumous) explanation to get accessed by the general public? Just look at philosophy (students) and how they try to say the simplest things in the most incomprehendable way...

So setting all personal animosities aside: You really believe that a mute can be a singer, if only trying hard enough? Or that a 70 year old can go to the regular olympics (as an athlete), if dedicating "enough" time? These are just examples. Why would a dog start learning freediving?




Hah, This is the internet dude, get over it. I judged you by your avatar and your name, before I even read a word of your posts. This is what people do, because YOU CAN tell something about a book from it's cover.

Frankly, who cares if <some famous persons> theories needed to be simplified and watered down so they could be 'understood' by the general public? It was the other experts that truly understood them, and the other experts who 'told' the general public that the dead guy was a genius and the other experts who watered down the theories for the public. Who else are the general public gonna believe but the experts? And frankly, I don't care if the general public doesn't understand a damn thing about advanced theories. Neither the experts nor the original genius are doing their work for the public, they're doing it for their subject or for themselves or for other experts. I mean, what serious author writes books for people who can't read?

Can a deaf girl become a world renowned classical musician? Well, yes. http://www.drummergirl.com/interviews/glennie/glennie.htm Yay!

Why do you have to be so defeatist and negative? Do you believe you can never change your mind? I like that I have the ability to change my mind and if I wanted to, I could decide to take up the harp. In a few years time, I'd be alright at it and maybe I would start doing crazzzzzzzy things on it. Playing hip hop tunes on it in a classical style, while using one of the sides as a drum. Or whatever I wanted to. Cos that's what I want to do, and really, what exactly is stopping me?

OoooOOo, remembered another one: a guy wrote a book, without being able to MOVE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butterfly - well, apart from that eyelid. Hell Stephen Hawkings can move more than that guy. But then Stephen Hawkings, quadraplegic thou he is, managed to become an astronaut. But that's all a bit offtopic, being more about motivation, than expertise.

So if you want to rewrite your post with an actual continuation to the argument in it. Go ahead. And it'll have to be better than: "A quadraplegic can't become an expert gymnast."


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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squid
BRONZE Member since Apr 2007

squid

sanguine
Location: sur

Total posts: 382
Posted: Written by: mcp


Go on and believe if you want that kids have some great mind set that makes them super learners. I prefer to think that I can learn that fast too, just by being playful and open to new ideas.




technically, infants DO actually have a greater capacity to learn than adults. I learned that in my masters of education classes. Studies have shown that the ability to acquire language, motor skill manipulation, and everything else that a young child does, is simply far greater than at any other point in a person's lifetime.

Their brains are like sponges. Their only goal is to absorb every stimulus around them and learn. Adult brains already have a storehouse of knowledge that does compete with new incoming knowledge. So, while we can learn quite rapidly, it wont be at the same rate that a younger brain will.

That is where concentration is an adult's asset. A child is more easily distracted because they are still processing information from other stimuli at the same time. Adults have the cognitive awareness to be able to block out stimuli that are irrelevant to a specific goal.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Still staying FAAAR away from the rest of the conversation. wink


"to a man whose only tool is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail." Abraham Maslow

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted: Written by: squid


 Written by: mcp


Go on and believe if you want that kids have some great mind set that makes them super learners. I prefer to think that I can learn that fast too, just by being playful and open to new ideas.




technically, infants DO actually have a greater capacity to learn than adults. I learned that in my masters of education classes. Studies have shown that the ability to acquire language, motor skill manipulation, and everything else that a young child does, is simply far greater than at any other point in a person's lifetime.

Their brains are like sponges. Their only goal is to absorb every stimulus around them and learn. Adult brains already have a storehouse of knowledge that does compete with new incoming knowledge. So, while we can learn quite rapidly, it wont be at the same rate that a younger brain will.

That is where concentration is an adult's asset. A child is more easily distracted because they are still processing information from other stimuli at the same time. Adults have the cognitive awareness to be able to block out stimuli that are irrelevant to a specific goal.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Still staying FAAAR away from the rest of the conversation. wink



Did you like my other examples of people who shouldn't really be in the fields there were in? cool

I'm not going to disagree on you with the language learning, most everybody knows that if you don't learn a language as a kid you'll never be truly fluent at it.

Infants maybe, but how old do you mean? Most 'prodigies' generally start about age four, when talking and walking and stuff have already been mostly learnt. Are they still carrying over this increased capability by this point, or having done the important stuff, does it just go down to normal?

Plus with an adults increased motivation (why would a kid want to learn the harp?), concentration (as you say), background knowledge (adults can already do a lot more things than children and use that knowledge), and cognitive awareness (analyzing why things went wrong and how to fix them etc...)... will these things level the playing field with kids?

I don't want any easy excuses for my learning rate, so I'd prefer to think of it as a level playing field. (Plus it's slightly more optimistic)

Stuff like this would back that up, http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/35/4/422 beats me how useful it is as a study thou.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:ubblol nice volley.

There are certain physical/ mental limitations and genetic predispositions, accept it or not. I think encouraging people to aim for something that is clearly way out of their capability, is unfair and a waste.

btw: no I'm not a *hippy*, maybe *just enough* of a hippie. wink Dunno why you're so full of judgement about other peoples ideals, I can't say where the answer lies and accept truth in lines like: You can't always get what you want.. and if you try some time you might find....

There are loads of adult "role models", yet you know that you are talking about a slight percentage of mankind (which is what the "american dream scam" is all about). Hawkins "became an astronaut" for very certain reasons - are you trying to insult our intelligence? umm wink

Errm, "role model staff (and poi) spinners"? Naaaa - wouldn't dare to refer to ppl like ThaiTom, Samaparn and even myself with that title, yet we got told by (a younger audience) that we give them "hope" by spinning... I mean to some we're just "old farts" unless picking up the toys... Excuse me for having taken a break without asking (your) permission... Next time I won't forget.

Dunno 'bout you and why you have such a prob with "respect", man. You'll not finding me "walking around Jerusalem (HoP) with a big fat beer gut and big black sideburns going, "Damn, I'm the son of God -- give me a cheeseburger and french fries." (Denis Leary) Dunno where your attitude comes from and who of the oldskoolers exactly annoyed you to the point where you drew your conclusions from.

 Written by: McP

Hah, This is the internet dude, get over it. I judged you by your avatar and your name, before I even read a word of your posts. This is what people do, because YOU CAN tell something about a book from it's cover.



Now what's THAT supposed to mean? What you reckon to know about me anyway? The only thing I *know* about you is that you run around this place with an attitude and often (un)knowingly insult people to an extent that is uncomfortable to observe - some seek expertise in this discipline, I'll direct them to you... give tuition? wink Who tells you that your conclusions are correct anyway?

Now this ain't offtopic I reckon, cause some people think they are larger than life (expertise), when all they got is an attitude and self esteem. Enough "experts" out there who don't deserve the title. Just look at the IP and you'll notice an example Pele has given (namely the photographer). So there is a grrreat deal of people who claim "respect" for their non-existing "expertise" - which is why Pele started this thread (hope I'm right).

To me an expert is someone with profound knowledge (in a certain topic) - this does not say anything about her/his personality and whether or not they are beneficial to mankind, act as desirable "role models" or not. I could think of experts who I feel repelled from - due to personal qualities - which is why I have respect for their knowledge but certainly not for their personality.

Some "experts" are even just delaying breakthroughs (which in itself has its own right of existence)...

Are we back on track? *excuses to Pele, offers a lowjack* wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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