PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:I thought that it would be nice to show my support to all of those people who have given their lives over the years and those currently doing their tours of duty... on this remembrance Sunday.


Non-Https Image Link


Please help show your support too... wear your poppy and think of those whom gave us so much of their lives and help their families live on.


" I remember " hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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ma'tina
ma'tina

multiplex
Location: somewhere...
Member Since: 20th Mar 2005
Total posts: 611
Posted:ditto

"I remember" hug


- Ho Sa -
kisses & peace & love to beautiful madges
*rever le temps le prendre*

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pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:In Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, saw dawn, felt sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up your quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.


Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:For us here, it's Veterans Day on Monday.

Same sentiment.
A lovely one at that.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Lizzybeth
Lizzybeth

Lizzy hearts sunshine hoop
Location: midlands!
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2007
Total posts: 272
Posted:a nice thought. i will leave my poppy at the memorial this evening.

if i could be a busy busy bee...

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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:I remember.



My dad's out in afghanistan at the moment too. I can't exactly forget.


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted: Written by: Fine_Rabid_Dog


I remember.

My dad's out if afghanistan at the moment too. I can't exactly forget.



hug


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:best friend gets deployed to Iraq at the end of this week...can't forget either

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I just looked up some of the history of Remembrance Day, and Wiki being Wiki tells me it's called "Armistice Day" in France and other Commonwealth countries wink

As a foreigner to this tradition, I think a few things about it are quite odd. Please don't take this as showing disrespect to those soldiers who actually fought to defend people somewhere. If someone has answers that would be good.

1. Plastic Poppies - if I were dead, and someone put a 0.99 wreath of plastic stuff on my grave or memorial, I'd be most annoyed (if I wasn't dead of course), and probably wondering why people don't come up with anything better. I can see why you'd put a plastic poppy on your pin, but seriously, for the graves and memorials it should be something a bit more alive, no?

2. I was told that originally Remembrance Day was one day. The 3 week build-up of everyone running about with their flowers kind of makes it into a big mush, I think it'd be better to have it on the one day.

3. I get uncomfortable at seeing 7-year old kids in uniform standing on guard. It might just be my German heritage that tells me kids in uniforms are a bit off of course.

4. (Not really on topic, sorry) People with Poppy Pins get on the planes. How is a 2 inch pin less harmful than a nail file or a water bottle? Is it because terrorists wouldn't care about Remembrance Day, but drink water and file their nails?

5. The ads that are all over the place in Scotland at the moment about the charities that look after ex-soldiers - surely looking after those that have been enrolled in wars and got injured there should be up to the country and not a charity?!?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Birgit, the monies raised from the poppy appeal go towards good causes for soldiers and veterans to help make their lives function. The dead and the injured, the old and the young but not only them their families too.

The poppy just helps to show who supports such a good cause, to help foundations such as the Royal British Legion reach out to those in need.

It is just the same as many other fund raising events, but a long withstanding one at that.

I view it as a mark of respect, support and giving to those in need.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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PinkNigel
PinkNigel

Pinker than thou
Location: A little pink world all my own...
Member Since: 4th May 2006
Total posts: 336
Posted:What happened to the white poppy thing from a few years back? To me, that was a lot more relevant to the populace of today (62 years since the end of the last world war, how many ex-servicemen who saw it were at the cenotaph? Almost 90 years since the day that started the whole shebang, can't think that there were overly many ww1 vets watching Liz, Charlie, William et al placing opulent wreaths), symbolising the hope that such atrocities would never be repeated (and in such, recognising that which has gone before and the lessons we need to learn from it).
To me (dons flameproof suit), there is a certain amount of the justification/glorification of war about the whole red poppy/remembrance day thing, which I don't like at all.
Oh, and Birgit.. Your no. 5.. Spot on. Welcome to the UK, where a vast number of social needs are met by charities rather than by government, no matter how much you pay in tax and NI...


A wise man once said: "You have two ears and one mouth, therefore you should shut the censored up and listen" (though, to be fair, he might not've put it _quite_ like that..)

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by:


5. The ads that are all over the place in Scotland at the moment about the charities that look after ex-soldiers - surely looking after those that have been enrolled in wars and got injured there should be up to the country and not a charity?!?




It should indeed be up to the country to look after its veterans, but it's a consistent complaint of veterans that this is not the case.

Currently, in the UK, returning injured soldiers are finding that they are shunted into the NHS system, rather than being looked after in the specialist military units that they would much prefer (partly cos they'll then be in the company of people they can relate to i.e. military, partly cos of the waiting lists on the NHS.

If their injuries are too severe for them to work, they will be shunted onto disability benefits, which, in one recent publicised incidence, meant a man having to live off and, support his family with, 100 a week.

The perception is, that the country and, the government, don't give a damn for those crippled serving their country.

Whereas, those running the charities, do (care).

So, that's why charities take responsibility.

 Written by:


2. I was told that originally Remembrance Day was one day. The 3 week build-up of everyone running about with their flowers kind of makes it into a big mush, I think it'd be better to have it on the one day.




It's a matter of selling poppies to make money for the veterans, one day isn't enough, 3 weeks seems entirely reasonable to me.

 Written by:


3. I get uncomfortable at seeing 7-year old kids in uniform standing on guard. It might just be my German heritage that tells me kids in uniforms are a bit off of course.




Maybe Germans see uniforms in a different light for historical reasons- I understand that guilt is still prevalent due to what happened in the second world war.

Whereas, in the UK, USA, France, Australia etc those uniforms are more strongly associated with defence against oppression, hence less discomfort at seeing people dressed in them.

(that's obviously a potentially sensitive point, no offense is intended and I hope it's not read in such a way that offence is taken, if so, i apologise, none was meant).

Obviously, where Iraq is concerned, soldiers as defenders is a much more dubious point than with soldiers of the second world war- nevertheless, even those of us who see the Iraq situation in a cynical way, nevertheless feel for the soldiers whose lives are wrecked in doing their job/duty over there- particularly when they are pretty much abandoned by the government on returning home.

Personally I despise war and I would not fight for my government- but I've no problem whatsoever with charities selling poppies to help soldiers who have/do fight for their country- they're led to believe that their country owes them something in return and it's not fair that that deal gets broken.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:What's this whit poppy thing from a few years back? I've never heard of it.

But I think a red poppy is entirely appropriate. we wear red poppies in the memory of the men whose blood was spilt on the poppy fields...if not red, then what colour was their blood?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: PinkNigel



What happened to the white poppy thing from a few years back? To me, that was a lot more relevant to the populace of today





One problem with the white poppy was that many of the veterans themselves found it grossly offensive, to the point that the British Legion officially refused, not only to sell white poppies, but also declined any proceeds from the sale of white poppies.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Poppy



As I understand it, the white poppy is a symbol of pacifism and the end of all war.



Which is obviously a good aim, but probably best done as seperate from rememerance (so as not to be seen as 'piggy-backing'on the well-established red poppy that is a symbol of rememberance).



Because the red poppy was/is purely about rememberance, of the sacrifice made by (mainly) young men whose lives were ended at age 18 or younger.



You can imagine that it was a big deal, in a way that our generation, who've never had to face conscription into a world war, can't really appreciate.



Pacifism is, for many of us, a good thing, but, to veterans, who lived in a culture where pacifists were not well thought of,it's not such a good thing- certainly it pales,in their eyes, when compared to rememberance.



The red poppy was chosen as the rememberance partly cos red poppies grew on battlefields, not white ones.



Historically and traditionally, it's the red poppy for rememberance.



The white poppy symbolises many things, some of them good, but, in the eyes of most veterans, the white poppy is not a symbol of rememberance and they deeply resent any attempt to pass it off as such.



At the end of the day, if modern youngsters feel the red poppy is a symbol that can be seen as gloryfying war, then I think many veterans would say, fair enough, don't contribute then- but at least have the balls to to just decline, rather than insult us with a white poppy that we don't want and that we do not acknowledge.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Hmm tough topic.... I just would like to express my thoughts - no offence of any kind meant.



First of all: thanks guys for defending the "free world" against a faschist opressive and totalitarian regime (that unfortunately happens to be a part of my ancestry). One of my grandfathers had to be a commanding officer in both, WWI and II - neither a fascist, nor a nazi at all, just caught up in those times. The other happened to produce steel and got wrongfully accused, consequently almost killed in hearings by the secret police (Gestapo).



Even though I still and strongly oppose



- the severe (and counterproductive) bombing of German cities (and civilian targets),

- the bombing and destruction of dams (causing severe floodings and casualties amongst the civilian population) and

- the following condemnation of an entire nation (being held responsible for actions they were not responsible for - guess the USAmericans nowadays get the slightest idea) and most certainly

- the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki with WoMD's, causing the death of countless civilians ("collateral damage" - what a fearsome and cruel term).... two wrongs don't make a right.



Apart from that: Thanks guys, you have my deepest gratitude and respect, despite the fact that my family lost most of what has been theirs, including health and lives. Without you, the world today would not be as it is. Freedom seems to have a price.



It's a pity that your governments first called on you with all patriotic emphasis, called you "freedom fighters" and decorated you with cheap metal medals, but instantly forgot about you when you became a "problem" (i.e. severely wounded and/ or traumatised).



It seems that "good soldiers" either return unharmed (or only slightly wounded) or would not return at all. It's cynic that the country and ideals that you defend(ed) are turning against you and leave you in misery.



IF you find offence in people wearing white, instead of red poppies, then you may for an instant sit back and try to see it from this angle: these people oppose war alltogether, most of it because they love their family members.



Why does every(good)thing have to get turned into a tacky, money making scheme? (in this case) Just because your governments are not willing to bear the responsibilities? Because your fellow citizens - whose freedom you were fighting for - memory and consciousness is so extremely bad?



Having said this - if governments and your fellow citizens are unwilling to follow up on your sacrifice (without severe nose poking and money making schemes) - do they really proove being worth fighting for in the first place?



And finally if the red poppy pins happen to be manufactured in the "great peoples democracy of China" I would regard THIS as the greatest of all affronts, if not a slap in the face of those who died for defending their ideals: democracy and freedom.



We got a lefty parole in Germany: "Imagine there is war and nobody joins in."


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:it's not "woo hoo! we defeated germany, go us!", The eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month is when the armistice was signed. World War 1 was the "war to end all wars". when it was signed, the intention was that there wouldn't be any more. Therefore by that alone, remembrance day is a day of memorial AND being hopeful about no more war.

and i don't see how it can NOT be a money-making activity when it's a charity which raises funds to support families of those who have lost, and those who will lose. Giving them a pat on the back and saying "sorry for your loss" won't feed the children when the primary bread winner has gone.

and i don't see how it's tacky either, because if it's tacky then ALL charity collections and awareness days are tacky as well


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:hmm I guess you got my intentions wrong, but thank you for the "it's NOT "woo hoo! we defeated Germany(...)"" Neither do I intend to open a can of worms or sound disrespectful ('cause I am not).



IMO it's a great shame that veterans are left behind. No matter from what war and unless they have comitted "crimes against humanity". They all acted in best faith, did their duty (name it as you like) - bottom line is they served their country. Or do I have a wrong angle on this? Why does their country then leave them behind?



Why is it now about ordering red plastic poppy pins from China (a totalitarian, non-democratic regime) and selling them to the general public? Thus to generate profit to give charity(?!?) to those who served their country (to fight for freedom and democracy)? IMHO this is an abysmal shame upon the responsible government UNLESS they love to play this as part of the "pity scheme". I think veterans do not deserve "charity" along with medals (of honour), to me there is a contradiction in all this.



I call it "tacky" because a .99 dollar plastic pin IS tacky (as in "cheap and flashy"). I rather drop that dollar and refuse the pin...



Dunno about the "war to end all wars", except for a loonatic royal dragging Germans into a war that had nothing to do with them, but with Austrian royals having gotten killed over their imperialistic polytricks and I wonder if we would have a "rememberance day" in Germany, if one of the two WW's had ended differently... umm



[edit: I'm not trying to keep anyone from wearing this pin with best intent and excuse myself to the general audience for sounding moralistic in the previous posts - but I really believe that showing true compassion for veterans should not have to do anything with supporting an opressive, totalitarian regime through the backdoor, i.e. buying these plasic poppy pins - to me it's just mismatching]

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1194975237)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Thanks for all the replies smile

Just to clarify a few things - I do agree with selling the plastic pins and if anyone wants to wear them that's fine of course, I just think they should be WORN on one day, but then that's just me smile What I don't agree with are the plastic WREATHS, the least thing one could do would be to pick a flower or something, I think the plastic stuff looks horrible and tacky, indeed. I saw little wooden crosses for sale in front of Exeter Cathedral last week, and people wrote messages on them, that was much better, and they looked much more appropriate than the wreaths.

Dave, I can't speak for all my countrymen and -women, but myself, I don't believe in reincarnation, and I can't see why anyone who wasn't born or old enough to act in the 30s or early 40s should feel any guilt. I don't expect you all to feel guilt for the crimes committed against jews centuries earlier or the natives of the countries you all live in now either. I also don't expect people to feel guilt about how their governments stood by watching Hitler's rise to power for example, who made his intentions quite clear from the start, and only stepped in when it was WAY too late, lots of people had died already and nothing could be saved without an enormous amount of bloodshed.

I would have a lot to say on the subjects of most wars since the 1940s being for freedom, or the smug feeling many people seem to have, for example the constant "they say they were "just following orders" as if it's an excuse" (which seems a bit weird in the context of how people got given the death penalty for it, yet nowadays it serves as a reason to lower the punishment in the case of Charles Menezes), or indeed as Tom says what would've been the habit in Germany now if the wars had ended differently. I know we have some foundations for looking after graves on the ex-fronts, but more often than looking after these young people on gap years will look after the graves of people fallen fighting AGAINST the Germans, which is nice.

But I don't think this is the thread for it - as I said I just had a few questions coming to mind when watching the build-up to Remembrance Day.

A final suggestion would be to replace the innumerable "history documentaries" and movies with bad German accents in them with some more stories on how veterans aren't looked after by their respective governments (from what I've read previously for example Gulf War veterans are pretty much left alone with any mental problems that come up or side effects of chemicals they were exposed to by their own armies). Maybe that would be a bit more in the original spirit of the day?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:I brought a red poppy, as I do most years.

To me, World War One, with over 40 million casualties, was the Was to End all Wars. So the white poppy seems appropriate. Perhaps, people were getting confused with the white feather.

Dressing up kid in uniform seem to glorify war. Something many people still do today. We don't seem to have learn much about the cost of war in the last 90 odd years.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Birgit




Dave, I can't speak for all my countrymen and -women, but myself, I don't believe in reincarnation, and I can't see why anyone who wasn't born or old enough to act in the 30s or early 40s should feel any guilt. I don't expect you all to feel guilt for the crimes committed against jews centuries earlier or the natives of the countries you all live in now either. I also don't expect people to feel guilt about how their governments stood by watching Hitler's rise to power for example, who made his intentions quite clear from the start, and only stepped in when it was WAY too late, lots of people had died already and nothing could be saved without an enormous amount of bloodshed.



I wasn't suggesting that Germans should feel guilt, simply making the observation that many do seem to and suggesting that that could account for the attitude towards children in uniform.

Personally, I don't think Germans have any reason to feel guilty for what their fathers/grandfathers did in the war- they were as much victims (of erroneous ideas and state propaganda) as anyone else.

Arguably, even Hitler and his state generals were also victims of those ideas (and, in Hitlers case, almost certainly a victim of mental illness) and genuinely believed that they were acting in the best interests ofthe German people.



Going back to rememberance, IMO, if suporters of white poppies feel that it's important to remember all victims of war (ie soldiers on both sides and civilian casualties) plus promote the idea that all war is futile, then that's fair enough and those are good sentiments.

But why try to run it off the back of the veterans remeberance day? (especially when most veterans, much as they hate war, do not consider it to be futile)

Cos, however laudable the sentiments, in the eyes of most veterans, it's nothing to do with the established (created and maintained by them and the organisations who represent them) rememberance day.

However futile we think war to be, it seems, to me, that veterans who lost their friends and suffered horribly, are entitled to their rememberance day as they see fit.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: onewheeldave

However futile we think war to be, it seems, to me, that veterans who lost their friends and suffered horribly, are entitled to their rememberance day as they see fit.



Well then I have gotten something wrong in the spirit of that day. I thought it's for (civilian) family members to remember their lost (militarian) relatives and friends too. And in this respect nobody should dictate the color of the poppy or even raise an eyebrow over it.

But reading the Wiki article about its history, it seems to be something I should and will keep my hands off.

That guilt pattern you're sensing is certainly part of German heritage since WWI, it led straight into WWII shrug Which is why we often have that critical eye on (government) propaganda. Most think that Germany (directly) caused enough destruction and suffering on this planet already (which also reflects in environmental policies). We shalt focus more on rebuilding, than destructing.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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PK_
PK_

Lambretta Fanatic

Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 4991
Posted:Tom you keep mentioning the Government..

Remembrance Day and the Poppy Appeal is not part of the Government I think that is where you are being confused.. it is The Royal British Legion.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I thought that the veterans have served their country and that is represented by the government. As I learned, Remembrance Day got "invented" by King George of England, which again would make it more of an official thing, maybe less a call from the public. Apart from that I mention governments, because IMO the necessity of fundraising and charity for veterans is a shame.

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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LazyAngel
LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK
Member Since: 29th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2895
Posted:A guy at work was telling me about 'Amnesia Day':

instead of remembering the people on our side that got killed, we should remember the people on the other side who we forgot about.

Instead of a two minute silence, you have a two minute noise.

I'm not dissing Remembrance Day, I just think it's interesting that someone has come up with an idea for the flipside of it.


Because ActiveAngel sounds like a feminine deodorant

Like sex, I'm much more interesting in real life than online.

'Be the change you want to see in the world around you' - Ghandi

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:it's interesting that you mention "remembering the people on our side that got killed" because in school we weren't taught that it wasnt about "sides" we were taught that the minute silence was for the atrocities of war and about remembering the people who were killed in general. maybe that's a difference between how the UK and Australia do it?

as far as i'm concerned the dead have no sides.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:clap

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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