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Jo


Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England

Total posts: 517
Posted:Sorry I've not been around recently, I've moved house and had all sorts of things going on. To those that have tried to contact me, I apologize for not responding yet.

Anyway, I saw this story and I'm interested in your opinions on the punishment dealt to this couple. Haven't got time to chat, but I'll check back to see your thoughts.

The way I see it is that a life punishment is too harsh despite the terrible consequences their actions, as they are already serving the bona fide life sentence of having lost their baby. A token jail sentence of maybe a year or two would be enough imo (maybe along with some lessons), and anything more than that would be cruel and unnecessary.

Here's the story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/

Quote:
ATLANTA - A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy, who was fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice.

Superior Court Judge L.A. McConnell imposed the mandatory sentences on Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31. Their son, Crown Shakur, weighed just 3 1/2 pounds when he died of starvation on April 25, 2004.

The couple were found guilty May 2 of malice murder, felony murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty to children. A jury deliberated about seven hours before returning the guilty verdicts.

Defense lawyers said the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to the lifestyle of vegans, who typically use no animal products. They said Sanders and Thomas did not realize the baby, who was born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

But prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the babys body wasted away.

No matter how many times they want to say, Were vegans, were vegetarians, thats not the issue in this case, said prosecutor Chuck Boring. The child died because he was not fed. Period.

Although the life sentences were automatic, Sanders and Thomas begged for leniency before sentencing. Sanders urged the judge to look past his perception of the couple.

I loved my son and I did not starve him, she said.

When the judge told the defendants they could ask for a new trial, Thomas hung his head low.

Im dying every day in there, he said, and that could take three years.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali, Australia

Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: Doc Lightning


 Written by: newgabe


soy/thyroid



I keep on seeing these soy-thyroid/cancer/green spots on your nose/aliens-will-abduct-you claims, but I've never seen a good, reproducible study that links soy with any ill effect.


Thanks Doc, I feel better already wink

 Written by: k8et


and as a veggie, I hate even dealing with my cat's food.



As a meat eater, I find cat food disgusting too! I used to be vegetarian (not vegan) for 10 years, till I got pregnant. My son went to a vegetarian boarding school. It was very much his choice to ask for sausages every time he came home for the weekend!
Choice is good. We both knew what was good for us. We are both natural carnivores. Other people seem to thrive on vegetarian diet: we simply don't. But this thread is about a particular situation, and parenting, rather than veganism per se.

I read about this a bit elsewhere on the net and one question did strike me as interesting: These parents got a life sentence. (Doc, you said you thought the punishment wasnt' strong enough! What more could they get? Capital punishment?) That is a big sentence. They are black. The question was: can poor black people with 'alternative' ideas get a fair trial in Georgia? What do you people who know the US system think. WOuld they have been treated differently in diffent parts?


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:since they committed murder by neglect i would say that this is fair. I personally don't see how you can raise a healthy baby on a vegan diet, but that is because I don't understand. The point of this all is that they didn't do anything. It would be interesting to see how healthy the couple looks.
It is awful what happened and they most likely have an unbearably weight on them, but this is fair. It also said in the article that in a case like this life was automatic. As this was Atlanta, the trial was probably fair.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:My pet theory on this is that the parents were junkies, and malnutrition was the order of the day for both parents and child alike. Breast feeding simply might have not worked. Also, the baby might have been born addicted, and the parents feared the authorities finding out about it.

There was a three year interval between the baby's death and the conviction, more than enough time to work on the "vegan defense" and the "fear of hospitals being infested with germs" defense(s)

Given that they lived right across the street from a hospital, I can't help but wonder how many times a day the parents looked at their sick baby, looked at the hospital, looked back at the baby....I dunno, maybe they had more faith in the healing powers of crystals than they did in western medicine.

Thing is, you can be just this side of brain dead and live well on a vegetarian diet, but vegan, on the other hand, requires a certain amount of intelligence. One thing that doesn't fit with my theory is the baby being born in a bathtub, which I assume was a water birth.


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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4995
Posted:Ok, I might not have made my post clear... sorry if that read wrong.

So with regards to k8et's post.

Forcing I used in a general term, "parental choice" would be more appropriate. smile I have no qualms with any one who raise their child how they see fit, if they are vegan, veggie or meat eaters it is up to the parent, to me I just see it as "forcing", as it is with out consent of said person on the sole reason that they can not as said previously make those choices alone.

I'm very much in agreement with Doc's 3 points to making choices. hug

Unfortunately, people like to be nosey and poke their noses in where it doesn't belong and force their opinions on you and their beliefs. frown That sucks and it happens to be and I'm greatly misunderstood by my partner and my in-laws due to being English, and they have no idea of my culture or up bringing, half of the time I feel nothing other than a money tree and that my parents are too. frown

Also in regards to getting in touch with my old closest friend I have no idea what really happened to him in the end other than I know now that he is here on HoP confused and I hope that he drops a message to say hello.
As for my other friends, blah!, I wouldn't waste my energy on most of them, they get in touch when they feel like it, but as for personal feelings, thoughts etc I have my mum ubbrollsmile and my ex girlfriend who is always there for me ubbrollsmile

My ex boss here a few towns away near Pisa is fantastic for advice though.. It's nice to stop by there, get fed and watered too smile

I hope no wrong thoughts come from my previous post, I'm eating my own words really, I'm only trying to express my thoughts and how I can discuss how I can raise my son wish to raise my son and if I'm doing so the right way for me, my partner and him with the beliefs of myself and of my partner, it's just a little on the biased side of things from my point of view.
Sure if my partner wasn't as ill as she is then maybe we'd be in our own home doing our own thing.

Anyway. hug to all.


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted: Written by: newgabe


The question was: can poor black people with 'alternative' ideas get a fair trial in Georgia? What do you people who know the US system think. WOuld they have been treated differently in diffent parts?



Probably not, but in this case the question would be whether rich, white people can get a fair trial. A rich, white couple might have gotten off with only several years and a very hefty fine. And in my opinion, that's far less fair.

And as for what would have been fair? Give the parents apple juice and soymilk only, in limited quantities, until they starve and/or dehydrate to death. But then again, when someone intentionally harms a child, it brings out the demon in me.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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k8et
SILVER Member since Jun 2006

k8et

Member
Location: , USA

Total posts: 20
Posted:pk, thanks for responding - i wasn't offended by what you said, and didn't want you to take my reaction the wrong way, glad you didn't ;o) seems we mostly agree about it actually. and re-reading it, you were saying something a little different than what i was reacting to.

i've just heard several people (not just here) say that it's "mean" or "wrong" to force a veggie diet on a kid, like it would be any different if they "forced" them to eat meat. when it's used that way, as a reason/argument, the word forced makes me mad. you were saying something different. like you said, whatever the parent does is "forced"!

and yeah. doc's advice is good.

i also like brian andreas' quote...

"She asked me if I had kids & when I said I did she said make sure you teach them what's right. & I said how will I know? & she nodded & said, good point, just don't teach them any obvious wrong then."


aka hunnybear in burning man circles
avatar: hunnybear - nj - 06/16/07 (c) abjectphoto

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Side note: apparently there's some speculation as to whether they were vegans before they had the child.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted:Yeah, perhaps a more fair headline would be: "Parents Starve Baby to Death, Use Veganism as Excuse"

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_Stix_


_Stix_

Pooh-Bah
Location: la-la land

Total posts: 2419
Posted:dunno if this link is usefull

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0503metvegan.html

this certainly has been a very interesting thing to read your discussions about it...


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:How can one not take his baby to a hospital, when something is obviously no going right? Why not taking it to a doctor, or call the doctor instead... ? Given there still is a possibility that the parents are innocent... what a shocker... what lives gone for waste frown

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted: Written by: newgabe

The question was: can poor black people with 'alternative' ideas get a fair trial in Georgia? What do you people who know the US system think. WOuld they have been treated differently in diffent parts?



They are in the Metro-Atlanta area, which, I must admit, is a very liberal part of the state. Think of it like "Little New York." There is a large population of the city and the outlying area that is heavily populated by transplants from the North. As "poor black people with 'alternative' ideas" they do stand a far better chance to get a fairer trial now over 50 years ago.

However, with the death of a child involved, really, they don't stand a chance of getting an equitable trial anywhere, IMHO. When children become involved in a crime, people and judges have a tendency to lean towards far harsher punishments due to the age of the victim. In a way, I agree with this, because a child cannot really defend him or herself against an adult. However, on the other hand, where is the equal value of human life?

Sorry. Splitting hairs. offtopic


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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M33k0
BRONZE Member since Jan 2007

member
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Total posts: 78
Posted:As a mother of a very healthy and incredibly smart 3 year old, I say that the death penalty should be used in this case.

I am vegetarian, but my child is not. I feed her what is healthy, what she needs, and also exclusively breast fed for over a year. I had to start supplementing with formula because I wasn't producing enough milk... but that is fine... ANY amount of breast milk is better than none.

Stupid jackass parents like that need to realize what breast milk is... if they do not want to feed their children breast milk because they are vegan, they need to realize that what they eat is essentially the nutrients that their baby would get from nursing. So how is that bad? And soy milk is NOT okay for a baby that young. In some medical circumstances, it is. But usually... a baby needs breast milk or formula in order to thrive as they should. And any parent that can't see how tiny their baby is getting and think that it's okay to sit there and do nothing is too stupid to even deserve the chance to live. My daughter lost too much weight because my milk wasn't fatty enough for her to gain weight, and she told me a good soy formula to use, and together, my daughter gained the weight she needed and is healthy as a horse.

I am a HUGE advocate for breast feeding, it is ultimately the mothers choice, but for gods sake, if you dont nurse, give your baby formula! And take them to the damn doctor when they are clearly in medical distress!

Ugh just makes me sick to think about that little baby frown


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Kathain_Bowen


Kathain_Bowen

Good Ol' Yarn For Hair
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Total posts: 422
Posted:Actually, a friend of mine is raising a vegan baby and made rather interesting commentary before birth at a party. She said that breast milk was perfectly ok as per vegan concerns, since it was given by choice and not taken.

.... it took another guest at the party to point out, by that logic, cannibalism of a willing person is perfectly ok as per vegan standards, too.

biggrin


"So long and thanks for all the fish."

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Wild Child
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

Wild Child

Star Trekker
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 1733
Posted:ubblol

Would these 'vegans' take a new born animal away from it's mother to prevent it suckling? Of course not - mother's milk is there for 1 reason only - to feed the young until they're capable of taking solids and/or feeding themselves.

My sisters 2 beautiful (and healthy) daughters have been raised vegetarian - the eldest pushed her luck when she reached 4 or 5 and Sis agreed she could eat meat if she wanted to away from the home, but never at home and Carol wouldn't cook it for her. She tried it a few times but didn't like it - she's 15 now shrug

I'm with Doc all the way on this one - they have no right to harm their child, whether down to real neglect or because of 'principles'. And do-gooders do-harm when they try to justify actions with what are merely explanations.

pk hughug hug to you and your family


'The last rays of crimson on the spindle tree as the cerise fruit splits and reveals its orange seeds in a gloriously clashing colour scheme no-one would ever dare to wear'
Euonymous Europeus

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PK_
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

PK_

Lambretta Fanatic
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 4995
Posted:So I wonder what happened to the thread starter?... disappeared again? confused

Wonder if it is because I replied in this thread confused


PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.

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brodieman


brodieman

old hand
Location: london

Total posts: 1024
Posted:A death of a child is always sad... as a childrens nurse i always advise new mums to breast feed its not only the nutritional benifits their is a ton more good reasons why. ( such has implrved ability to fight infections)

I have met a small child in hospital whos parents were vegans also fortunatly they were picked up whilst in the community.. but this child was also badly mal nourished.

Points to remember about breast feeding-
Its a personal prefrence
parents who dont want to breast feed directly can invest in rather cheap breast pumps of all sorts of shapes and sizes.
If the parent has a low calorie bad diet such as a vegan who is not caring for themselves this will affect the breast milk.

Vegans who are thinking of bringing up a vegan baby .. id strongly recomend brestfeeding untill the child has started eating solids at least.
Make sure you see a professional a trip to a regestered dietician will provide you with up-to-date advice.


1 warning about breast feeding - whilst i was working in A&E i heared of a mum that had brought her baby in , the baby was critically ill, it ends up the mum had gone clubbing took a variety of drugs including E then breast fed her baby the following day.. baby died in ITU i never want to hear a story like that again.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13922
Posted:Yeah, I've seen babies with drug abstinence syndromes. I've thankfully never had one die, but it's dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. Most medications over the counter are safe to breast feed, but prescriptions should always be run past your pediatrician to ensure safety. Recreational drugs are untested, come with all sorts of unpleasant side-effects specific to children, and come in unpredictable doses. Not safe.

I was thinking about this case the other day. I thought about this case, and Jehovas Witnesses who have to be forced to transfuse their children when they would rather they die...

It's simple, dogma, religion, or idealism are not excuses for intentionally hurting a child. mad


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction, Aus...

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Over here jehovas witnesses have their children removed from them and are made wards of the state...its then up to the parents if they want to take it back.

and i hate to say it, but it's almost a good thing that baby died...could you imagine what sort of mother she would be as the child got older! eek


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth, Australia

Total posts: 5814
Posted:[Quote]whilst i was working in A&E i heared of a mum that had brought her baby in , the baby was critically ill, it ends up the mum had gone clubbing took a variety of drugs including E then breast fed her baby the following day.. baby died in ITU i never want to hear a story like that again. [/Quote]

Thats so tragic.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:In Milwaukee, a mother had bought some LSD candy. When she got home, she and her friend passed out. When she woke up the ten month old had eaten 2 of the smarties LSD candy. At first they tried to induce vomiting and called poison control. Poison control convinced them to take her to the hospital. The put the baby into rapid detox

The mother was taken into custody and the child is now a ward of the state


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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