Forums > Help! > performance pricing
Login/Join to ParticipateSILVER Member
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
member
80 posts
Location: Derby UK
Posted:
The circus society at Derby uni that I am a member of has been approached to do a paid performance at a local bar it will be will be for several hours and involve probably between 3 and 7 people, if insurance can be obtained then we may use fire (poi ,staff, devil sticks and juggling, no fire breathing though) otherwise It’ll be LED and glow equipment, along with Stilt walking, Unicycle, Diablo. This will be the first time that we would have performed and received money for it by someone not involved with the Students Union (other times have been for other societies events and also with the council while raising money for RAG week) and we don’t really know what kind of money to ask for, if you have any ideas at how much we should be charging for fire or non fire that would be great, also where would be a good place to get an insurance quote from as this may be needed (we are in the UK).
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Ben
The circus society at Derby uni that I am a member of has been approached to do a paid performance at a local bar it will be will be for several hours and involve probably between 3 and 7 people, if insurance can be obtained then we may use fire (poi ,staff, devil sticks and juggling, no fire breathing though) otherwise It’ll be LED and glow equipment, along with Stilt walking, Unicycle, Diablo. This will be the first time that we would have performed and received money for it by someone not involved with the Students Union (other times have been for other societies events and also with the council while raising money for RAG week) and we don’t really know what kind of money to ask for, if you have any ideas at how much we should be charging for fire or non fire that would be great, also where would be a good place to get an insurance quote from as this may be needed (we are in the UK).
Any help or info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks Ben
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Surely have different parks in different cities
How 'bout "busking" then - if you live 250 miles from the next city
this is a very good indocator for "crowd pleasing abilities and how to improve them"... 
Surely have different parks in different cities
How 'bout "busking" then - if you live 250 miles from the next city
this is a very good indocator for "crowd pleasing abilities and how to improve them"... the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
grumpy poorly froggy
3,999 posts
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom
Posted:
parks are a great place to practice, and if you live in a town like mine gives you great practice at the heckling side of things, if you can handle a herd of tracksuit wearing memebers of society throwing things and generaly being mouthy tawts you can handle one or two at a gig.
parks are a great place to practice, and if you live in a town like mine gives you great practice at the heckling side of things, if you can handle a herd of tracksuit wearing memebers of society throwing things and generaly being mouthy tawts you can handle one or two at a gig.
Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows
GOLD Member
Member
232 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Member
232 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
Performance is a market like most others. The success and failure of any businesses (performers) within it are subject to all the normal factors that effect a business in most other markets. It isn't the responsibility of competitors to keep your own business competitive, it's the responsibility of your business to do so. Some times that might mean that a market isn't viable for the business to succeed, that's the way supply and demand works.
The only thing individuals should be responsible for is maintaining certain standards of safety, as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with someone of any standard spinning for whatever they want. From a business point of view.
From the point of view of a member of the spinning community I'd say it was a bad thing. If the market proves to be unviable for professional performers then it would lead to plenty of cool people losing there career and reduce the quality of performance in general. I still wouldn't hold anything against the people that caused it, they have the right to perform for what they wish. If we all chose to start using boats instead of planes we'd be knowingly driving a lot of pilots to unemployment, if the market can't sustain peoples careers thats the way things are.
Everyone in every profession curses those that make things hard for themselves, they don't usually feel the same about the same type of people who don't effect them though as there not involved. As the spinning performance market is small and has low barriers to entry it's just particularly more obvious and personal.
Capitalism will always have it's negative points and this is one of them, I don't think we've developed a better system yet overall. (Note that this sentence isn't a cue to go off topic on to such a broad discussion instead of this issue)
Whoops, I seem to have forgotten this is a help thread not a discussion thread. If I try to write anything that would help you'd end up getting a business essay on pricing strategy though which you probably wouldn't appreciate. And I really should be revising. Basically, as long as your priced competitively enough to gain sales just charge whatever you can get for those sales.
EDITED_BY: Kieron (1179665567)
Performance is a market like most others. The success and failure of any businesses (performers) within it are subject to all the normal factors that effect a business in most other markets. It isn't the responsibility of competitors to keep your own business competitive, it's the responsibility of your business to do so. Some times that might mean that a market isn't viable for the business to succeed, that's the way supply and demand works.
The only thing individuals should be responsible for is maintaining certain standards of safety, as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with someone of any standard spinning for whatever they want. From a business point of view.
From the point of view of a member of the spinning community I'd say it was a bad thing. If the market proves to be unviable for professional performers then it would lead to plenty of cool people losing there career and reduce the quality of performance in general. I still wouldn't hold anything against the people that caused it, they have the right to perform for what they wish. If we all chose to start using boats instead of planes we'd be knowingly driving a lot of pilots to unemployment, if the market can't sustain peoples careers thats the way things are.
Everyone in every profession curses those that make things hard for themselves, they don't usually feel the same about the same type of people who don't effect them though as there not involved. As the spinning performance market is small and has low barriers to entry it's just particularly more obvious and personal.
Capitalism will always have it's negative points and this is one of them, I don't think we've developed a better system yet overall. (Note that this sentence isn't a cue to go off topic on to such a broad discussion instead of this issue)
Whoops, I seem to have forgotten this is a help thread not a discussion thread. If I try to write anything that would help you'd end up getting a business essay on pricing strategy though which you probably wouldn't appreciate. And I really should be revising. Basically, as long as your priced competitively enough to gain sales just charge whatever you can get for those sales.
EDITED_BY: Kieron (1179665567)
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GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
However, there are a few other relevant factors that operate within a pure business model baesed on capitalisim, eg-
1. Community/peer pressure- if the spinning/performing community consensus is that performing for peanuts is not good and that it is seen as damaging the market for professionals- that can help persuade some to not [censored] themselves out for rubbish pay
2. Educating the potential employers- the more they realise that hiring amateurs with minimal experince, no insurance and not enough self-respect to charge a sustainable rate, the less they are going to be likely to hire on the cheap: especially if it is clear that to do so could cripple thier own business (eg if an audience member at their event is harmed by a uninsured 'performer' that they have hired).
fact is that there are several possible courses of action that those who perform professionally can do to hinder amateurs from taking their business and, as far as business is concerned, it would be bad business to not do those things.
While I consider it OK for those starting out to do gigs for lower rates, or for performers to be generous with the occasional charity gig, like many here I'm totally against doing gigs for beer etc.
And i'm sure if the organisers of some of these events knew the consequences of an audience member of the public being hurt by an uninsured (and possibly drunk) peformer for them, they'd be more inclinded to pay a bit extra for a professional.
After all, they wouldn't hire an enthusiastic beginner to rig their stage/lighting cos they'll do it for beer money, would they?
Written by: Kieron
Performance is a market like most others. The success and failure of any businesses (performers) within it are subject to all the normal factors that effect a business in most other markets. It isn't the responsibility of competitors to keep your own business competitive, it's the responsibility of your business to do so. Some times that might mean that a market isn't viable for the business to succeed, that's the way supply and demand works.
The only thing individuals should be responsible for is maintaining certain standards of safety, as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with someone of any standard spinning for whatever they want. From a business point of view.
However, there are a few other relevant factors that operate within a pure business model baesed on capitalisim, eg-
1. Community/peer pressure- if the spinning/performing community consensus is that performing for peanuts is not good and that it is seen as damaging the market for professionals- that can help persuade some to not [censored] themselves out for rubbish pay
2. Educating the potential employers- the more they realise that hiring amateurs with minimal experince, no insurance and not enough self-respect to charge a sustainable rate, the less they are going to be likely to hire on the cheap: especially if it is clear that to do so could cripple thier own business (eg if an audience member at their event is harmed by a uninsured 'performer' that they have hired).
fact is that there are several possible courses of action that those who perform professionally can do to hinder amateurs from taking their business and, as far as business is concerned, it would be bad business to not do those things.
While I consider it OK for those starting out to do gigs for lower rates, or for performers to be generous with the occasional charity gig, like many here I'm totally against doing gigs for beer etc.
And i'm sure if the organisers of some of these events knew the consequences of an audience member of the public being hurt by an uninsured (and possibly drunk) peformer for them, they'd be more inclinded to pay a bit extra for a professional.
After all, they wouldn't hire an enthusiastic beginner to rig their stage/lighting cos they'll do it for beer money, would they?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
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"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
It's my personal opinion that we cannot possibly find all those new to paid perfomances, and without locating them, "educating" them in what we think they should do is nigh-on impossible.
I, and I'm sure many others, began in the industry doing a few cheap performances. Most people ever take it past that point, and get allt hey want from their hobby.
For those of us who continue on, it would be a huge waste of your time and talent to try to convince all the newbioes to charge decent rates.
A much more efficent use of time is to educate our clients on why we are the professioanls, what advantages we bring, and do a GREAT job when hired.
Part of this is to send out invoices, keep all your gear and clothing clean and professional looking, turn up on time and be a professional business-person just as much as a fire performer.
Most of my clients, new and long-term, don't care whether we do a 3 beat weave or BTB butterfly. They care how we treat them, whether we meet the needs of the event (usually entertaining the crowd) and our back-up service after the fact.
By feeling that it is the fault of other, 'new', performers, the real issue can become easily sidelined.
Sure, you may lose a gig or two on price, but, as a professional, you will have more lined up, and you shoudl follow-up with the client afterwards and see how well it went. Keep in touch, and you will get future bookings.
If a car saleman offered you a new car for $200, wouldn't you be suspicious rather than jumping on it as the centuries best bargain? Foster that aspect of human nature when dealing with your clients.
I personally (this is not necessarily a HoP view) feel that it is the professional performers responsibility to keep the prices where they should be by their own actions.
It's up to us!
It's my personal opinion that we cannot possibly find all those new to paid perfomances, and without locating them, "educating" them in what we think they should do is nigh-on impossible.
I, and I'm sure many others, began in the industry doing a few cheap performances. Most people ever take it past that point, and get allt hey want from their hobby.
For those of us who continue on, it would be a huge waste of your time and talent to try to convince all the newbioes to charge decent rates.
A much more efficent use of time is to educate our clients on why we are the professioanls, what advantages we bring, and do a GREAT job when hired.
Part of this is to send out invoices, keep all your gear and clothing clean and professional looking, turn up on time and be a professional business-person just as much as a fire performer.
Most of my clients, new and long-term, don't care whether we do a 3 beat weave or BTB butterfly. They care how we treat them, whether we meet the needs of the event (usually entertaining the crowd) and our back-up service after the fact.
By feeling that it is the fault of other, 'new', performers, the real issue can become easily sidelined.
Sure, you may lose a gig or two on price, but, as a professional, you will have more lined up, and you shoudl follow-up with the client afterwards and see how well it went. Keep in touch, and you will get future bookings.
If a car saleman offered you a new car for $200, wouldn't you be suspicious rather than jumping on it as the centuries best bargain? Foster that aspect of human nature when dealing with your clients.
I personally (this is not necessarily a HoP view) feel that it is the professional performers responsibility to keep the prices where they should be by their own actions.
It's up to us!
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Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
yupp - it is amazing how much we appreciate bargains (outside our own niche) and shop for various things in the cheapest possible place
Nobody seriously wants to
noobs, advanced or semi pros for taking away their resources (making it hard to feed their newborn child and forcing them to return to a 9 to 5 job in a huge office building with only grey faces around them) *continue sob story*
no really, I know they do highly appreciate it, they never
and call their rich grandparents in resignation...
But perhaps it's best bet for all those fabulous and professional spinners - in the future - to simply charge 392% more on individual workshops or lessons and tell every noob to
off, when they get approached "hey, would you please show me new tricks?"... or simply tell them to buy the DVD
[/irony]
yupp - it is amazing how much we appreciate bargains (outside our own niche) and shop for various things in the cheapest possible place
Nobody seriously wants to
noobs, advanced or semi pros for taking away their resources (making it hard to feed their newborn child and forcing them to return to a 9 to 5 job in a huge office building with only grey faces around them) *continue sob story* no really, I know they do highly appreciate it, they never
and call their rich grandparents in resignation... But perhaps it's best bet for all those fabulous and professional spinners - in the future - to simply charge 392% more on individual workshops or lessons and tell every noob to
off, when they get approached "hey, would you please show me new tricks?"... or simply tell them to buy the DVD [/irony]
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
wandering thru the woods of WI
3,556 posts
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posted:
depending on where you live sometimes you need to have low prices to start. Just so you can get out there. People in the area may not be familiar with poi, and you start the price negotiations with "well, i can give you an introductory price to see if this might fit your needs"
depending on where you live sometimes you need to have low prices to start. Just so you can get out there. People in the area may not be familiar with poi, and you start the price negotiations with "well, i can give you an introductory price to see if this might fit your needs"
Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed
SILVER Member
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
I've been considering approaching clubs about this for a little while as I've got myself to a level where I'd feel comfortable performing to music for a few hours. I'd only be using glow toys as I have no insurance (and even less desire to be sued for causing someone injury).
Just hoping for more feedback from UK spinners on prices per hour basically, I'm considering in the region of £40-£50 as it'll be my friday/sat night and probably continue into the early hours. I suppose I could start high & barter until the look of horror fades.
I've been considering approaching clubs about this for a little while as I've got myself to a level where I'd feel comfortable performing to music for a few hours. I'd only be using glow toys as I have no insurance (and even less desire to be sued for causing someone injury).
Just hoping for more feedback from UK spinners on prices per hour basically, I'm considering in the region of £40-£50 as it'll be my friday/sat night and probably continue into the early hours. I suppose I could start high & barter until the look of horror fades.
geek, level 1
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
5,300 posts
Location: everywhere
Posted:
a general guide for pro performer rates for circus is between £150-£400 pp per gig plus expenses. :o)
i'm somewhere in the middle
a general guide for pro performer rates for circus is between £150-£400 pp per gig plus expenses. :o)
i'm somewhere in the middle
Holistic Spinner (I hope)
SILVER Member
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
4,030 posts
Location: Bali, Australia
Posted:
Pricing depends on the product you are offering. It sounds as if you are proposing something along the lines of "pootling along freestyle spinning at an easy pace in the backgound as part of the decorations and it doesn't matter if anyone watches or not"
SO the sort of money you are talking about is maybe fine for that.
But it is different to a PERFORMANCE where the attention is on you, you are choreographed, exciting, costumed, skilled and providing a WOW factor to the night which is out of the ordinary. That's what justifies the higher charges Bluecat is talking about for maybe 15 mins, as compared to the sort of charge you are talking about on the assumption you would keep it up 'for hours'
IF you are dealing with club owners and promotors; these are hard headed people would have you pay THEM if they could. Know your product and name your price. Throw in an extra service if you like to sweeten the deal ... eg a spot of meet and greet or an actual show... but Bartering? Nah. Bad idea I reckon. Just makes you seem desperate /amateurish. *is prepared to be corrected by peeps who know the local club scene better than me*
Written by: GeoffonTour04
performing to music for a few hours...
Pricing depends on the product you are offering. It sounds as if you are proposing something along the lines of "pootling along freestyle spinning at an easy pace in the backgound as part of the decorations and it doesn't matter if anyone watches or not"
SO the sort of money you are talking about is maybe fine for that.
But it is different to a PERFORMANCE where the attention is on you, you are choreographed, exciting, costumed, skilled and providing a WOW factor to the night which is out of the ordinary. That's what justifies the higher charges Bluecat is talking about for maybe 15 mins, as compared to the sort of charge you are talking about on the assumption you would keep it up 'for hours'
Written by: GeoffonTour04
I suppose I could start high & barter until the look of horror fades.
IF you are dealing with club owners and promotors; these are hard headed people would have you pay THEM if they could. Know your product and name your price. Throw in an extra service if you like to sweeten the deal ... eg a spot of meet and greet or an actual show... but Bartering? Nah. Bad idea I reckon. Just makes you seem desperate /amateurish. *is prepared to be corrected by peeps who know the local club scene better than me*
.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
If they finally realise that your act ain't worth the money, they will either tell you, or never call again. But this also happens if they think that your act is worth it's money, so you really can't go wrong (except selling yourself for cheap).
The way you sell yourself is the way you look at yourself.
You need to display enough respect to your self and your art, only then you will get respected by others. How often have I seen ppl with acts half as good, receiving double payment - if you're having trouble finding that self esteem, find a friend who never spun and has little to no knowledge about it, show yourself and ask what they think of it.
You may be surprised how spectacular your act looks from the outside vs. how ordinary it feels to your self.
good luck
If they finally realise that your act ain't worth the money, they will either tell you, or never call again. But this also happens if they think that your act is worth it's money, so you really can't go wrong (except selling yourself for cheap).
The way you sell yourself is the way you look at yourself.
You need to display enough respect to your self and your art, only then you will get respected by others. How often have I seen ppl with acts half as good, receiving double payment - if you're having trouble finding that self esteem, find a friend who never spun and has little to no knowledge about it, show yourself and ask what they think of it.
You may be surprised how spectacular your act looks from the outside vs. how ordinary it feels to your self.
good luck
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
member
28 posts
Location: Ireland
member
28 posts
Location: Ireland
Posted:
I've been grifting with promoters, agents and bar managers for nearly a year now. It's all about neck and balls.
Show no weakness, they are never your friends. E-mail quotes so you have something written if they try and screw you. Be on time, professional, wear a costume (you can charge more) and name specifcally how long you'll perform for. When I was wet behind the ear I'd say I'll do two hours:
I'd do an hour and a half around 11 and then they'd ask me to take a break and do the last half hour at the end of the night before everyone leaves. So I'd end up spending the whole night there and getting paid for 2 hours.
Now I love spining and not having to stack shelves in a corner store because I make stupid money from my beloved hobby. I'm mercenary as f**k with clubs. It serves me well. Go in with a leather neck mate. PM me if you wanna chat about it.
I've been grifting with promoters, agents and bar managers for nearly a year now. It's all about neck and balls.
Show no weakness, they are never your friends. E-mail quotes so you have something written if they try and screw you. Be on time, professional, wear a costume (you can charge more) and name specifcally how long you'll perform for. When I was wet behind the ear I'd say I'll do two hours:
I'd do an hour and a half around 11 and then they'd ask me to take a break and do the last half hour at the end of the night before everyone leaves. So I'd end up spending the whole night there and getting paid for 2 hours.
Now I love spining and not having to stack shelves in a corner store because I make stupid money from my beloved hobby. I'm mercenary as f**k with clubs. It serves me well. Go in with a leather neck mate. PM me if you wanna chat about it.
SILVER Member
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
enthusiast
360 posts
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
ty for all the replies they've been much help. I doubt I'll go down the costume route as I'll be approaching fairly normal clubs (not gigs/circus) and won't be putting on a set show, just dancing in the background (or preferably a stage).
I have heard of people glowspinning outside clubs to attract attention which may be an option as there aren't a lot of clubs round here with enough room but I'd rather keep that as a last resort (hassle from passers by etc).
I'll start contacting people in the next couple weeks & let y'all know how it goes.
ty for all the replies they've been much help. I doubt I'll go down the costume route as I'll be approaching fairly normal clubs (not gigs/circus) and won't be putting on a set show, just dancing in the background (or preferably a stage).
I have heard of people glowspinning outside clubs to attract attention which may be an option as there aren't a lot of clubs round here with enough room but I'd rather keep that as a last resort (hassle from passers by etc).
I'll start contacting people in the next couple weeks & let y'all know how it goes.
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