Forums > Social Discussion > sliding scale prices
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
I have been having a discussion in the "Down the Rabbit Hole" thread, and thought I would bring a part of it that interests me over here to Discussion...
I am interested in knowing if you guys use, or are familiar with a "sliding scale" system of pricing and payment,or dual pricing, and if you have any opinion on it?
Here is the background:
Someone was commenting on the un-fairness of the two price system. In this case one lower price for Thai nationals, and another higher one for tourists. Some think this is offensive inappropriate, and the price should be the same for all. One object or service, one price.
Now, I disagree with that strongly. Basically, because I don't believe most objects or services have an inherent, inflexible $$ value.
But beyond that, I think the Thai need to have equal access to their own country and all it has to offer. If the prices were the same as for tourists, they could not go... And even one step further, for places like some of the parks-- well, the Thai people already paid for that in their taxes. The tourist did not, so they pay more at the door... seems reasonable to me!
Usually, in Canada at least- what someone ends up paying is a made up figure based on how much the person selling wants or needs to profit. The actually costs, on all levels, are frequently not reflected in the retail price at all. The primary consideration is how much the seller thinks they can get- or what the market would bear.
Where I live we have a real mix of people, rich, and poor. People firmly enmeshed in the economy, and others living way way off the grid, bartering, growing their own food etc. Then we have rich visitors that just drop into the community for a few months int he summer... All these people have vastly different resources available to them, and contribute in vastly different ways to the community. Yet they often want to purchase and participate in the same things. Should they pay the same price?
Should only rich people get to see our community play? Get a professional massage? Or wear a piece of my jewellery? In order to make a decent living, sometimes we need to ask a high price, if we can get it. But it excludes so many...
So in this community, many of us have what we call
" sliding scale" pricing at events, and even with some products. That means a person pays an amount that is in some way reasonably proportional to their available resources.
So, same play, one guy, who makes a million a year, pays $20 for his seat. A single mom, well, she might pay $10, or maybe volunteer to be an usher and get in free. The seat at the play sold for a lesser price would have been empty should the single mom not be able to afford to go at all.
Another example-- a local baker may sell ten loaves of bread for the price of $3 each, but sell another two to locals that are poor at a lower price, $1. And donates one loaf to the food bank... The baker loses money on one, breaks even on two, and profits on the remainder. So he still makes enough profit overall, spread across the batch.
Is this fair or not? Should everything be one firm price and tough luck if you cant afford it? Do some people have more invested in the community in non financial ways, and if so should they receive consideration of that in the price they pay?
Is good business always about getting the most you can for whatever you sell? And is that "fair"?
Curious what you think..
I have been having a discussion in the "Down the Rabbit Hole" thread, and thought I would bring a part of it that interests me over here to Discussion...
I am interested in knowing if you guys use, or are familiar with a "sliding scale" system of pricing and payment,or dual pricing, and if you have any opinion on it?
Here is the background:
Someone was commenting on the un-fairness of the two price system. In this case one lower price for Thai nationals, and another higher one for tourists. Some think this is offensive inappropriate, and the price should be the same for all. One object or service, one price.
Now, I disagree with that strongly. Basically, because I don't believe most objects or services have an inherent, inflexible $$ value.
But beyond that, I think the Thai need to have equal access to their own country and all it has to offer. If the prices were the same as for tourists, they could not go... And even one step further, for places like some of the parks-- well, the Thai people already paid for that in their taxes. The tourist did not, so they pay more at the door... seems reasonable to me!
Usually, in Canada at least- what someone ends up paying is a made up figure based on how much the person selling wants or needs to profit. The actually costs, on all levels, are frequently not reflected in the retail price at all. The primary consideration is how much the seller thinks they can get- or what the market would bear.
Where I live we have a real mix of people, rich, and poor. People firmly enmeshed in the economy, and others living way way off the grid, bartering, growing their own food etc. Then we have rich visitors that just drop into the community for a few months int he summer... All these people have vastly different resources available to them, and contribute in vastly different ways to the community. Yet they often want to purchase and participate in the same things. Should they pay the same price?
Should only rich people get to see our community play? Get a professional massage? Or wear a piece of my jewellery? In order to make a decent living, sometimes we need to ask a high price, if we can get it. But it excludes so many...
So in this community, many of us have what we call
" sliding scale" pricing at events, and even with some products. That means a person pays an amount that is in some way reasonably proportional to their available resources.
So, same play, one guy, who makes a million a year, pays $20 for his seat. A single mom, well, she might pay $10, or maybe volunteer to be an usher and get in free. The seat at the play sold for a lesser price would have been empty should the single mom not be able to afford to go at all.
Another example-- a local baker may sell ten loaves of bread for the price of $3 each, but sell another two to locals that are poor at a lower price, $1. And donates one loaf to the food bank... The baker loses money on one, breaks even on two, and profits on the remainder. So he still makes enough profit overall, spread across the batch.
Is this fair or not? Should everything be one firm price and tough luck if you cant afford it? Do some people have more invested in the community in non financial ways, and if so should they receive consideration of that in the price they pay?
Is good business always about getting the most you can for whatever you sell? And is that "fair"?
Curious what you think..
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Carpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees
Posted:
we've had this problem with our festival, stall holders wanting to charge sky high prices for simple thing's such as food/drinks etc.
basicly, we told ALL stall holders that there is to be reasonable pricing, if they are asking too much they get told where to go, as there are 10 others prepaired to play ball with us.
this will stand out to the people at PLAYf estival last summer, "SENSORY SOLUTIONS"
they wanted us, to not only pay their transport costs but to also pay them to do workshops AND cover their costs a well as a few hundred on top
they where being offered a £500 pitch for free!!!!
with power and runing water FFs!!!!
festival organisors need to keep it real, we have hoards of stall holders etc. all wanting to get a pitch and most are willing to do it for free and abide by our rules, then there are the chancers that try it on and get told where to go.
people asking £1000 + transport +plus accomodation in a local hotel/bed and breakfast for instance just for 2 people for instance
i think it's bang out of order that there be 2 prices to be honest
we've had this problem with our festival, stall holders wanting to charge sky high prices for simple thing's such as food/drinks etc.
basicly, we told ALL stall holders that there is to be reasonable pricing, if they are asking too much they get told where to go, as there are 10 others prepaired to play ball with us.
this will stand out to the people at PLAYf estival last summer, "SENSORY SOLUTIONS"
they wanted us, to not only pay their transport costs but to also pay them to do workshops AND cover their costs a well as a few hundred on top
they where being offered a £500 pitch for free!!!!
with power and runing water FFs!!!!
festival organisors need to keep it real, we have hoards of stall holders etc. all wanting to get a pitch and most are willing to do it for free and abide by our rules, then there are the chancers that try it on and get told where to go.
people asking £1000 + transport +plus accomodation in a local hotel/bed and breakfast for instance just for 2 people for instance
i think it's bang out of order that there be 2 prices to be honest
BRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia
Posted:
I'm for the 'one service, one price' things as I'm completely over being penelised for putting a lot of effort into being well-paid for being good at the most in-demand occupation in the state, only to lose my wages as I get labelled by "oh, she can afford it..." mob.
I get to pay an extra 1.5% of my income to prop up the health service. Why?
I get absolutely nothing for childcare or maternity leave. The government has decided that I can afford to pay $500 a week after tax, even though, in reality it means I have to cut down my working week as I cannot afford that, hence they lose my taxable income. That does not make sense.
It goes on with super; under no circumstance will I be eligable for government co-contribution.
I get this crap from the people who lead the country and I don't need it when I buy stuff from the markets too.
When it comes to overseas stuff, I remember being in Morocco, one of the girls I was with bought a carpet, but when someone else got one cheaper she was upset about how she had been ripped off. If she was willing to pay that price after the endless bartering, she cannot have been ripped off. In certain places in the world goods only have the value that they can be sold for, they have no intrinsic value in themselves, and locals just have far more of an idea what they can be bought for than tourists,
I'm for the 'one service, one price' things as I'm completely over being penelised for putting a lot of effort into being well-paid for being good at the most in-demand occupation in the state, only to lose my wages as I get labelled by "oh, she can afford it..." mob.
I get to pay an extra 1.5% of my income to prop up the health service. Why?
I get absolutely nothing for childcare or maternity leave. The government has decided that I can afford to pay $500 a week after tax, even though, in reality it means I have to cut down my working week as I cannot afford that, hence they lose my taxable income. That does not make sense.
It goes on with super; under no circumstance will I be eligable for government co-contribution.
I get this crap from the people who lead the country and I don't need it when I buy stuff from the markets too.
When it comes to overseas stuff, I remember being in Morocco, one of the girls I was with bought a carpet, but when someone else got one cheaper she was upset about how she had been ripped off. If she was willing to pay that price after the endless bartering, she cannot have been ripped off. In certain places in the world goods only have the value that they can be sold for, they have no intrinsic value in themselves, and locals just have far more of an idea what they can be bought for than tourists,
There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I've said it before: "one service - one price"
"Tourist equals millionaire" is a common misconception and one who creates a difficult situation in interaction between locals and foreigners..
We do earn more in the west, but our products and services are incomparatively more expensive (which is one of the reasons why ppl choose Thailand as a holiday destination, over the Bahamas/ Maledives).
Thailand is NOT a poor country.
Sometimes I am facing a bold approach of ppl trying to violently overcharge me, just because of the colour of my skin and lack of language skills.
BTW there are different types of tourists and there is also the one tourist who can just afford to buy one plane ticket and come to Thailand ONCE a lifetime.
As said: Thailand has not only an extremely wealthy upper class, but also extreme wealth stored in temples - why is it up to the Farang to level out the local injustice?
A tip is not common in Asia. Thai society works well - it's not a third world country, there is not remotely as much poverty as in India.
BTW - why does rich Thai tourist not have to pay more in his own country?
I've said it before: "one service - one price"
"Tourist equals millionaire" is a common misconception and one who creates a difficult situation in interaction between locals and foreigners..
We do earn more in the west, but our products and services are incomparatively more expensive (which is one of the reasons why ppl choose Thailand as a holiday destination, over the Bahamas/ Maledives).
Thailand is NOT a poor country.
Sometimes I am facing a bold approach of ppl trying to violently overcharge me, just because of the colour of my skin and lack of language skills.
BTW there are different types of tourists and there is also the one tourist who can just afford to buy one plane ticket and come to Thailand ONCE a lifetime.
As said: Thailand has not only an extremely wealthy upper class, but also extreme wealth stored in temples - why is it up to the Farang to level out the local injustice?
A tip is not common in Asia. Thai society works well - it's not a third world country, there is not remotely as much poverty as in India.
BTW - why does rich Thai tourist not have to pay more in his own country?
the best smiles are the ones you lead to 
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Man, I disagree with so much of what you wrote I hardly know where to begin with rebuttal, or if I should bother! Eep!
I may give it ago later, but not now. I will just put down a few things off the tip of my tongue.
****I do want to extend the idea of this thread out to the concept of sliding scale economies rather than keeping the subject to Thailand.I doubt many people know very much about the actual economy of Thailand.****
This will be my one and only digression from that: One response about your comments on Thailand,then I will attempt to restrain myself.
The day I see my Thai friends living the lifestyle of the average german, or canadian or... whatever, and therefore having the ability to take time off for a trip and stay a few weeks in Germany, is the day I will agree that the prices should be the same. When they can go to University as easily, access medical care as easily, live in a house as nice as the ones here,and have some labour laws that mean they work reasonable hours under reasonable conditions, etc etc...then I will consider it.
Or maybe I could agree to that now-- The prices should be the same, so we should raise them all and you can pay the same as you would at home-- and let the Thai's bank the difference so they can afford that trip abroad.
Most Canadians spend more on a freakin latte each morning at starbucks then that Thai man asks you for the time care and food he put into that meal. He deserves to prosper for it, and live in a house just as nice as the one the " poor" Canadian tourist has back home...
Rich Thai contribute to their country in many ways you do not, but I really do not want to get into that , off topic.Just maybe they are running some programs for the poor, or running a factory that employs them?
I want to keep all comments of race and racism out of this, it has nothing to do with it. It is the fact that one can afford to take the time to travel around their country as a tourist that is the indicator of your wealth, not your skin or nationality. You may not see it, but if you can do that, you are NOT POOR!!!!!
Thai "tourists" do spend a fortune on everything. But there are not that many Thai tourists. Though growing as their prosperity does, it is still an elite and unusual group. Thai rarely travel the way we do, within their country, or without. How many Thai teenagers have you run into in the hostels of Europe?( dont answer that it is rhetorical and off topic, sorry!)
Tom, you really need to go spend time at the refugee camps up at the borders, and go work with the farmers of the northeast, maybe visit an orphanage in the south--see what thai life is really like. In all your posts regarding Thailand I come away with the uncomfortable feeling you are using the country and resentful that they don't appreciate the pennies you toss for the privelege...
Man, I disagree with so much of what you wrote I hardly know where to begin with rebuttal, or if I should bother! Eep!
I may give it ago later, but not now. I will just put down a few things off the tip of my tongue.
****I do want to extend the idea of this thread out to the concept of sliding scale economies rather than keeping the subject to Thailand.I doubt many people know very much about the actual economy of Thailand.****
This will be my one and only digression from that: One response about your comments on Thailand,then I will attempt to restrain myself.
The day I see my Thai friends living the lifestyle of the average german, or canadian or... whatever, and therefore having the ability to take time off for a trip and stay a few weeks in Germany, is the day I will agree that the prices should be the same. When they can go to University as easily, access medical care as easily, live in a house as nice as the ones here,and have some labour laws that mean they work reasonable hours under reasonable conditions, etc etc...then I will consider it.
Or maybe I could agree to that now-- The prices should be the same, so we should raise them all and you can pay the same as you would at home-- and let the Thai's bank the difference so they can afford that trip abroad.
Most Canadians spend more on a freakin latte each morning at starbucks then that Thai man asks you for the time care and food he put into that meal. He deserves to prosper for it, and live in a house just as nice as the one the " poor" Canadian tourist has back home...
Rich Thai contribute to their country in many ways you do not, but I really do not want to get into that , off topic.Just maybe they are running some programs for the poor, or running a factory that employs them?
I want to keep all comments of race and racism out of this, it has nothing to do with it. It is the fact that one can afford to take the time to travel around their country as a tourist that is the indicator of your wealth, not your skin or nationality. You may not see it, but if you can do that, you are NOT POOR!!!!!
Thai "tourists" do spend a fortune on everything. But there are not that many Thai tourists. Though growing as their prosperity does, it is still an elite and unusual group. Thai rarely travel the way we do, within their country, or without. How many Thai teenagers have you run into in the hostels of Europe?( dont answer that it is rhetorical and off topic, sorry!)
Tom, you really need to go spend time at the refugee camps up at the borders, and go work with the farmers of the northeast, maybe visit an orphanage in the south--see what thai life is really like. In all your posts regarding Thailand I come away with the uncomfortable feeling you are using the country and resentful that they don't appreciate the pennies you toss for the privelege...
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
[post deleted]
[post deleted]
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland
Posted:
Yea. A very interesting topic.
This is what I was thinking when I opened this thread.
I remember someone telling me before that somethings price is the most the person can get for it.
It's that simple.
A person could have a big bar of gold but if they're trapped up a mountain, they couldn't swap if for a that loaf of bread.
The whole point of haggling is to find a mutually agreeable price no?
Yea. A very interesting topic.
Written by:
Is good business always about getting the most you can for whatever you sell? And is that "fair"?
This is what I was thinking when I opened this thread.
I remember someone telling me before that somethings price is the most the person can get for it.
It's that simple.
A person could have a big bar of gold but if they're trapped up a mountain, they couldn't swap if for a that loaf of bread.
The whole point of haggling is to find a mutually agreeable price no?
I live in a world of infinite possibilities.
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Yeah, I like haggling... it recognizes that the value of something is not really all that fixed, what you ask for and what you get may vary hugely based on all sorts of factors that fluctuate moment to moment, day to day...
Eera, like you I also would not want things to swing to such an extreme that the "wealthy" were penalized for making money! Thats not what we try to do with a sliding scale system. Yes, some people do try to take advantage of it, not paying when they really could, but prioritized something else instead etc etc. But overall, it seems to work.
Ravehead-- For various festivals, when did not have money I always got around paying entry fees by volunteering there, or sometimes actually full on working... I dont know why the people you refer to would expect so much more for the spot at one, they must have greatly misjudged the market! Ah well...
Sorry if I sounded too harsh for you Tom, but your post really seemed to warrant it. But read it with a hug back at ya
Yeah, I like haggling... it recognizes that the value of something is not really all that fixed, what you ask for and what you get may vary hugely based on all sorts of factors that fluctuate moment to moment, day to day...
Eera, like you I also would not want things to swing to such an extreme that the "wealthy" were penalized for making money! Thats not what we try to do with a sliding scale system. Yes, some people do try to take advantage of it, not paying when they really could, but prioritized something else instead etc etc. But overall, it seems to work.
Ravehead-- For various festivals, when did not have money I always got around paying entry fees by volunteering there, or sometimes actually full on working... I dont know why the people you refer to would expect so much more for the spot at one, they must have greatly misjudged the market! Ah well...
Sorry if I sounded too harsh for you Tom, but your post really seemed to warrant it. But read it with a hug back at ya
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Well, not really. The VALUE of something is what others are willing to pay for it AT THE TIME they want it, and assuming they have those funds available.
The PRICE is what the seller sells it at. If they are on a mountain with no food, then the value of the item remains the same, but it has no price at all if there is no-one else to buy it, even if they did want it.
Bargaining and haggling work well for items of ready suppy, however for unique items that are required by one or more individuals, haggling can result in an increased price.
An interesting difference is price and value is food. Survival foods like rice, potatoes and other staples typically stay within the affordability range of the poor, not the ones with virtually nothing, but those who are likely to spend all their money on food and still not have quite enough.
In this way, the rich do not pay much more than the 'poor' prices for rice, but can pay huge rpices for caviar etc as it is not a staple and more akin to a luxury car or sofa than a survival food.
Affordability also includes the effort required to make/obtain the item. If rice can be easily grown by a family enough to meet it's needs, the price drops while the family has enough people and spare time to grow the rice in addition to other earning opportunities.
If that is all they have time and numbers for, the rice become the GDP (gross domestic product for wnat of a better term) of the whole family, and while the price to others who have money is still low, the price for the family is 100% of their ability, which is huge.
It's hard for people like most of ourselves from Western/'rich' countries, to understand the full dynamics of places where large numbers of people die of poverty and do not have enough to eat no matter how hard they try, so simple economics do not work in the same way as they would in New Zealand, for example, where the only people who starve are those who make silly choices or have societal issues...
This is by no means a simple issue, and cannot be covered by simple statements, but statements liek that can be used to further the discussion...
Written by: Solas
I remember someone telling me before that somethings price is the most the person can get for it.
It's that simple.
Well, not really. The VALUE of something is what others are willing to pay for it AT THE TIME they want it, and assuming they have those funds available.
The PRICE is what the seller sells it at. If they are on a mountain with no food, then the value of the item remains the same, but it has no price at all if there is no-one else to buy it, even if they did want it.
Bargaining and haggling work well for items of ready suppy, however for unique items that are required by one or more individuals, haggling can result in an increased price.
An interesting difference is price and value is food. Survival foods like rice, potatoes and other staples typically stay within the affordability range of the poor, not the ones with virtually nothing, but those who are likely to spend all their money on food and still not have quite enough.
In this way, the rich do not pay much more than the 'poor' prices for rice, but can pay huge rpices for caviar etc as it is not a staple and more akin to a luxury car or sofa than a survival food.
Affordability also includes the effort required to make/obtain the item. If rice can be easily grown by a family enough to meet it's needs, the price drops while the family has enough people and spare time to grow the rice in addition to other earning opportunities.
If that is all they have time and numbers for, the rice become the GDP (gross domestic product for wnat of a better term) of the whole family, and while the price to others who have money is still low, the price for the family is 100% of their ability, which is huge.
It's hard for people like most of ourselves from Western/'rich' countries, to understand the full dynamics of places where large numbers of people die of poverty and do not have enough to eat no matter how hard they try, so simple economics do not work in the same way as they would in New Zealand, for example, where the only people who starve are those who make silly choices or have societal issues...
This is by no means a simple issue, and cannot be covered by simple statements, but statements liek that can be used to further the discussion...
HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
BRONZE Member
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
4,145 posts
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)
Posted:
Andrea... a few questions, since I haven't been to Thailand yet:
1. Are prices fixed? As in, is there a sign saying 5/10 on stuff? Or do tourists just get charged more, with the exact amount left to the judgment of the seller?
2. What about foreigners living in Thailand? They pay their taxes, too, and probably earn less than they would abroad (or if not pay higher taxes) - do they get charged more for looking white/foreign?
Andrea... a few questions, since I haven't been to Thailand yet:
1. Are prices fixed? As in, is there a sign saying 5/10 on stuff? Or do tourists just get charged more, with the exact amount left to the judgment of the seller?
2. What about foreigners living in Thailand? They pay their taxes, too, and probably earn less than they would abroad (or if not pay higher taxes) - do they get charged more for looking white/foreign?
"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)
Owner of Dragosani's left half
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
oops... Birgit, that brings us back to Thailand, but I will answer as briefly as I can.
In general, there are a few specific situations where there is a fixed price, and it may be higher for a foreigner. Examples would be certain provincial or national park grounds, monuments, or temples that double as tourist attractions, like Wat Doi Suthep. Occasionally you see this a raves or dance parties too. At those events you can haggle around it though, and if you spin something probably get in free and drink for free all night anyways... As Dtai (a fabulous crazy Japanese spinner who hung out with us in Thailand) would say, "FIRE gets you everywhere!!! "lol
Beyond that, it is just up to the person selling the goods, who eyeballs you, and trys to guess what they can get from you for the product. They then suggest double that amount, you suggest less then half, and dicker around until you find something agreeable. A Thai person would have a much better idea of what a product typically is worth, so they don't usually get offered the ridiculous overflated price as a starter point, and the haggling is confined in a smaller range.Ditto if you negotiate in Thai, they figure you probably have a clear idea of the usual range of goods, and so keep the bargaining more restrained.
Good haggle practice is done with smiles, laughter, cunning plots, strategic negotiations and friendly debates-- it should be quite fun for both parties, and very informative/revealing. When it is not fun, one side or the other has taken it too far. Then you just walk away...
Malls and big super store places have set fixed prices on everything, just like in Canada. No haggling, but sales etc are offered...
Does that help?
Here we don't actually bargain--when there are sliding scales applied it begins with discussion, possibily with some suggestion of barter and service trade, and other considerations and limitations taken into account. Factoring all that makes the price variable for product in certain community places and events.
Charles, you raise some interesting points. It makes me think of a concern that will likely become rather vital soon-- what if something that is an essential -like clean water- becomes rare, and is highly priced, only available to the wealthy? Already there is talk of paying for water on a meter system, trading it internationally etc etc. Will it become only available to a select few, commodified to that degree? Or ?
Another example of sliding scale sort of pricing ideas that can be used to consider and debate is regarding the pricing of various pharmaceutical medications. They may be necessary to save lives- but largely too expensive for the people that need them in many third world countries. Various governments and organization have decided to make them available at much lower prices than those drug companies holding patents would prefer... at least some of them.
Consequently you have one price for a north American aids patient, and another for an African one( should they be so lucky as to have access to any begin with.)fair? Reasonable? Certainly debatable...
oops... Birgit, that brings us back to Thailand, but I will answer as briefly as I can.
In general, there are a few specific situations where there is a fixed price, and it may be higher for a foreigner. Examples would be certain provincial or national park grounds, monuments, or temples that double as tourist attractions, like Wat Doi Suthep. Occasionally you see this a raves or dance parties too. At those events you can haggle around it though, and if you spin something probably get in free and drink for free all night anyways... As Dtai (a fabulous crazy Japanese spinner who hung out with us in Thailand) would say, "FIRE gets you everywhere!!! "lol
Beyond that, it is just up to the person selling the goods, who eyeballs you, and trys to guess what they can get from you for the product. They then suggest double that amount, you suggest less then half, and dicker around until you find something agreeable. A Thai person would have a much better idea of what a product typically is worth, so they don't usually get offered the ridiculous overflated price as a starter point, and the haggling is confined in a smaller range.Ditto if you negotiate in Thai, they figure you probably have a clear idea of the usual range of goods, and so keep the bargaining more restrained.
Good haggle practice is done with smiles, laughter, cunning plots, strategic negotiations and friendly debates-- it should be quite fun for both parties, and very informative/revealing. When it is not fun, one side or the other has taken it too far. Then you just walk away...
Malls and big super store places have set fixed prices on everything, just like in Canada. No haggling, but sales etc are offered...
Does that help?
Here we don't actually bargain--when there are sliding scales applied it begins with discussion, possibily with some suggestion of barter and service trade, and other considerations and limitations taken into account. Factoring all that makes the price variable for product in certain community places and events.
Charles, you raise some interesting points. It makes me think of a concern that will likely become rather vital soon-- what if something that is an essential -like clean water- becomes rare, and is highly priced, only available to the wealthy? Already there is talk of paying for water on a meter system, trading it internationally etc etc. Will it become only available to a select few, commodified to that degree? Or ?
Another example of sliding scale sort of pricing ideas that can be used to consider and debate is regarding the pricing of various pharmaceutical medications. They may be necessary to save lives- but largely too expensive for the people that need them in many third world countries. Various governments and organization have decided to make them available at much lower prices than those drug companies holding patents would prefer... at least some of them.
Consequently you have one price for a north American aids patient, and another for an African one( should they be so lucky as to have access to any begin with.)fair? Reasonable? Certainly debatable...
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Andrea, you refer to "sliding scale of prices" and the "value of a certain item" - which is "the highest possible price a person can get for it". IMHO that is unjust.
Are you or not going to Thailand to buy silver and gemstones? Are you or not moving to Thailand for economic reasons (apart from all the other benefits)? If you don't, I'd consider that "not very smart".
What if your suppliers would work according to your attitude: She's a foreigner and as such has to pay as much money for her precious as she has to pay in Canada, as much for her grocery and certainly for her housing and tools too, etc. (by this disregarding the fact that you speak the language and know the local prices). You'd still move to Thailand, but it would affect the likelihood of your suvival as a goldsmiths.
Is it ethical to demand foreigners to pay more, when you yourself are not?
I dunno how much contact to the (extremely) wealthy you have had - but your picture isn't accurate, let me tell you. They are smart enough not to pay that much more - or they wouldn't be where they are (I have had a multi-billionaire haggering on Anjuna fleamarket with a local merchant, until he got that silver necklace for the cost of the silver - go figure. He gets the biggest bargains ever and always. "The wealthy" are not all the same, but most of them are Scrooges.
Andrea, you refer to "sliding scale of prices" and the "value of a certain item" - which is "the highest possible price a person can get for it". IMHO that is unjust.
Are you or not going to Thailand to buy silver and gemstones? Are you or not moving to Thailand for economic reasons (apart from all the other benefits)? If you don't, I'd consider that "not very smart".
What if your suppliers would work according to your attitude: She's a foreigner and as such has to pay as much money for her precious as she has to pay in Canada, as much for her grocery and certainly for her housing and tools too, etc. (by this disregarding the fact that you speak the language and know the local prices). You'd still move to Thailand, but it would affect the likelihood of your suvival as a goldsmiths.
Is it ethical to demand foreigners to pay more, when you yourself are not?
I dunno how much contact to the (extremely) wealthy you have had - but your picture isn't accurate, let me tell you. They are smart enough not to pay that much more - or they wouldn't be where they are (I have had a multi-billionaire haggering on Anjuna fleamarket with a local merchant, until he got that silver necklace for the cost of the silver - go figure. He gets the biggest bargains ever and always. "The wealthy" are not all the same, but most of them are Scrooges.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
Too many assumptions made in your post Tom, and I dont have time to clarify how I run my life for you. It certainly is possible that I may have misinterpretted your intentions, if so, by all means clarify them... I am not closed to other possibilities.
Suffice to say , regarding my personal practice, half of all the profit I make goes to community building projects. When in Thailand, or using Thai products, then that money stays local. When here, it is used here. I also spend approxiamately half of my time in Thailand doing volunteer work. I live fairly small, feel really rich-- and generally share all that I have. Sometimes I feel crazy doing this, sometimes it is rewarding, and sometimes frustrating. I am experimenting with it, and not solid on my conclusions yet/
So yeah, when you buy coffee at my place, or crafts,or my jewellery, it will be a likely little more expensive than at other places. The kind of people I want to come there don't mind that, cause they want to be part of the bigger vision, and the coffee is damn good. The energy around it is even better.:) The people that want to share in the art, and the energy, but dont have the funds, well, they are welcome too, and I have them contribute in other ways.
Your examples of the wealthy getting even more advantages in many areas of their financial world kind of supports my use/ suggestion of the sliding scale pricing system to help balance that out and offer some advantages to other people less financially secure.
But I dont think I have presented enough information on the subject of my experiences with wealth etc for you to have an clear reality based picture of what I think, never mind to declare it an inaccurate picture!
Ass-u-me : Assumptions always make ass out of you and me, now dont they...
I am interested in the subject of price systems and wealth distribution in an objective way, and do not want to have the discussion become overly personal, except as people use personal experiences to support their explanation of ideas and understanding of the subject...Okay?
EDITED_BY: BansheeCat (1177384575)
Too many assumptions made in your post Tom, and I dont have time to clarify how I run my life for you. It certainly is possible that I may have misinterpretted your intentions, if so, by all means clarify them... I am not closed to other possibilities.
Suffice to say , regarding my personal practice, half of all the profit I make goes to community building projects. When in Thailand, or using Thai products, then that money stays local. When here, it is used here. I also spend approxiamately half of my time in Thailand doing volunteer work. I live fairly small, feel really rich-- and generally share all that I have. Sometimes I feel crazy doing this, sometimes it is rewarding, and sometimes frustrating. I am experimenting with it, and not solid on my conclusions yet/
So yeah, when you buy coffee at my place, or crafts,or my jewellery, it will be a likely little more expensive than at other places. The kind of people I want to come there don't mind that, cause they want to be part of the bigger vision, and the coffee is damn good. The energy around it is even better.:) The people that want to share in the art, and the energy, but dont have the funds, well, they are welcome too, and I have them contribute in other ways.
Your examples of the wealthy getting even more advantages in many areas of their financial world kind of supports my use/ suggestion of the sliding scale pricing system to help balance that out and offer some advantages to other people less financially secure.
But I dont think I have presented enough information on the subject of my experiences with wealth etc for you to have an clear reality based picture of what I think, never mind to declare it an inaccurate picture!
Ass-u-me : Assumptions always make ass out of you and me, now dont they...
I am interested in the subject of price systems and wealth distribution in an objective way, and do not want to have the discussion become overly personal, except as people use personal experiences to support their explanation of ideas and understanding of the subject...Okay?
EDITED_BY: BansheeCat (1177384575)
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
I'm actually confused as to what you're talking about. BansheeCat, you started out seemingly talking about two different pricing systems where there were fixed prices for locals and a fixed price for foreigners. Yet later on you seem to be talking about haggling and how through the process of haggling foreigners end up paying more.
It's two completely different things.
I'm actually confused as to what you're talking about. BansheeCat, you started out seemingly talking about two different pricing systems where there were fixed prices for locals and a fixed price for foreigners. Yet later on you seem to be talking about haggling and how through the process of haggling foreigners end up paying more.
It's two completely different things.
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
yes Rouge Dragon they are different things!
I mentioned up the haggling because Birgit asked me two specific questions on it as it relates to Thailand. So I answered.
But it really does not specifically pertain to the sliding scale system except to point out that price, and value, are not always fixed.
As far as the thread goes, I am interested in other peoples experiences with, and opinions on , whether or not systems of pricing should be fixed, or if there is room for two tiered systems, sliding systems, bartering systems-- other ways of determining how , and how much, someone should pay for something.
Hope that helps!
yes Rouge Dragon they are different things!
I mentioned up the haggling because Birgit asked me two specific questions on it as it relates to Thailand. So I answered.
But it really does not specifically pertain to the sliding scale system except to point out that price, and value, are not always fixed.
As far as the thread goes, I am interested in other peoples experiences with, and opinions on , whether or not systems of pricing should be fixed, or if there is room for two tiered systems, sliding systems, bartering systems-- other ways of determining how , and how much, someone should pay for something.
Hope that helps!
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
Sidenote: "The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least!"
Birgit:
Taxi transportation BKK (as to serve as one example):
Kao Sarn to Siam Square A/C meter taxi = 70 Baht.
TukTuk on the way back (no meter) = 300 Baht.
Kao Sarn to Wat Po, by Rickshaw = 200 Baht
Meter Taxi = 38 Baht.
Kao Sarn to Airport = 600 Baht (without meter), with meter 250 Baht.
[edited]
Sidenote: "The richest man is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least!"
Birgit:
Taxi transportation BKK (as to serve as one example):
Kao Sarn to Siam Square A/C meter taxi = 70 Baht.
TukTuk on the way back (no meter) = 300 Baht.
Kao Sarn to Wat Po, by Rickshaw = 200 Baht
Meter Taxi = 38 Baht.
Kao Sarn to Airport = 600 Baht (without meter), with meter 250 Baht.
[edited]
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
BRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia
Posted:
Should pricing be fixed: If you mean fixed as in fixed at the same price for every consumer, then yes.
sliding systems: is this your system for one price for locals and one price for non-locals? defintely not.
Bartering systems: I am all for them and have used them myself at festivals. Advantage of this is that both parties can reach an agreed price and is not the exploitation of foreigners (yes, foreigners get expolited).
Now a question for you: Judging by your reasoning of taxes and the like, with Thai locals paying taxes and therefore should pay less on their goods. You should therefore have no problems with Thai people visiting the UK and having to pay more than the local Brits. Yes? Yet you express concern at the poverty in Thailand verses the West. Condradiction? Hypocracy?
Written by: bansheecat
As far as the thread goes, I am interested in other peoples experiences with, and opinions on , whether or not systems of pricing should be fixed, or if there is room for two tiered systems, sliding systems, bartering systems-- other ways of determining how , and how much, someone should pay for something.
Should pricing be fixed: If you mean fixed as in fixed at the same price for every consumer, then yes.
sliding systems: is this your system for one price for locals and one price for non-locals? defintely not.
Bartering systems: I am all for them and have used them myself at festivals. Advantage of this is that both parties can reach an agreed price and is not the exploitation of foreigners (yes, foreigners get expolited).
Now a question for you: Judging by your reasoning of taxes and the like, with Thai locals paying taxes and therefore should pay less on their goods. You should therefore have no problems with Thai people visiting the UK and having to pay more than the local Brits. Yes? Yet you express concern at the poverty in Thailand verses the West. Condradiction? Hypocracy?
i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey
Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...
BRONZE Member
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
veteran
1,247 posts
Location: lost, Canada
Posted:
First off, Tom, I am not sure why you let the fact that we appear to disagree to be such a negative thing? It is fine to disagree.
Yes, it does read as though there are assumptions in your post- one example I mentioned--that you know my "picture" of wealth enough to call it inaccurate. Next example; Look at the sentence you wrote
"ARE YOU or are you NOT going to Thailand to buy silver and gemstones? ARE YOU or NOT moving to Thailand for economic reasons (apart from all the other benefits)? I have no idea, educate me, please. If you don't, I'd consider that "not very smart" - the least to say."
It comes across as a series of assumptions only lightly veiled as a question, and there appears to be some insincerity in it as if I do take the time to "educate you", Am either taking greedy advantage of the Thai pricing system, or I am " not smart" It is a loaded piece of writing and not one I should have engaged in a response at all.
At least you could have waited for an answer before telling me I am not smart.
If that is not what you meant, try asking questions with no assumptions:
"How does one determine what is a appropriate price to pay in Thailand? Many people chose to live and work in Thailand because of the economic advantages . How can this be seen as an advantage or disadvantage to the Thai community and economy? How do these ideas extend to other nations,and situations and general principle of value and pricing systems?
That would get quite a different response.
But really, you take the discussion places I am not wanting to go, so yeah, I will dismiss it. If others want to engage with you in that way they are free to do so. I have no interest whether you or I are "saints or dicks" I dont even think that way in dichotomies. I wrote an explanation of how I handle my profit form Thailand because it was contrary to the assumption you made and I wanted to demonstrate that, thats all.
Rouge, curious to know-Why do you think pricing should be fixed?can you elaborate?
Sliding scales are not just used for a local non local scenario- it has more to do with keeping a price affordabily proportional to what a given person can manage. Its key aim is including a wide range of people in the community economy and projects, enabling them to participate. Maybe close to the idea of a subsidy, in some ways.
In regards to taxation, the situation where that influences Thai pricing is really minimal, a few temples, palaces and parks. They are expensive to maintain, but part of the Thai cultural heritage, and something their taxes contribute to. It does not effect, at all, the pricing in other arenas, such as a typical market.
So, that said, yes,I would not think it unreasonable that a British citizen who has paid taxes to maintain a national park or monument etc should get in there at a lesser rate than a tourist who has not.
If such a park or monument was interested in different pricing systems as a means to expand participation, they could offer a discount on certain days, or times( our art gallery is free or by donation on Thursday nights) so that even the poor people can access culture, whether local or no.
I am not actually concerned exclusively about poverty in Thailand vs the West. There is no versus in my mind at all.
I am concerned with poverty, anywhere, and in how we determine what has value and who should have access to it.
First off, Tom, I am not sure why you let the fact that we appear to disagree to be such a negative thing? It is fine to disagree.
Yes, it does read as though there are assumptions in your post- one example I mentioned--that you know my "picture" of wealth enough to call it inaccurate. Next example; Look at the sentence you wrote
"ARE YOU or are you NOT going to Thailand to buy silver and gemstones? ARE YOU or NOT moving to Thailand for economic reasons (apart from all the other benefits)? I have no idea, educate me, please. If you don't, I'd consider that "not very smart" - the least to say."
It comes across as a series of assumptions only lightly veiled as a question, and there appears to be some insincerity in it as if I do take the time to "educate you", Am either taking greedy advantage of the Thai pricing system, or I am " not smart" It is a loaded piece of writing and not one I should have engaged in a response at all.
At least you could have waited for an answer before telling me I am not smart.
If that is not what you meant, try asking questions with no assumptions:
"How does one determine what is a appropriate price to pay in Thailand? Many people chose to live and work in Thailand because of the economic advantages . How can this be seen as an advantage or disadvantage to the Thai community and economy? How do these ideas extend to other nations,and situations and general principle of value and pricing systems?
That would get quite a different response.
But really, you take the discussion places I am not wanting to go, so yeah, I will dismiss it. If others want to engage with you in that way they are free to do so. I have no interest whether you or I are "saints or dicks" I dont even think that way in dichotomies. I wrote an explanation of how I handle my profit form Thailand because it was contrary to the assumption you made and I wanted to demonstrate that, thats all.
Rouge, curious to know-Why do you think pricing should be fixed?can you elaborate?
Sliding scales are not just used for a local non local scenario- it has more to do with keeping a price affordabily proportional to what a given person can manage. Its key aim is including a wide range of people in the community economy and projects, enabling them to participate. Maybe close to the idea of a subsidy, in some ways.
In regards to taxation, the situation where that influences Thai pricing is really minimal, a few temples, palaces and parks. They are expensive to maintain, but part of the Thai cultural heritage, and something their taxes contribute to. It does not effect, at all, the pricing in other arenas, such as a typical market.
So, that said, yes,I would not think it unreasonable that a British citizen who has paid taxes to maintain a national park or monument etc should get in there at a lesser rate than a tourist who has not.
If such a park or monument was interested in different pricing systems as a means to expand participation, they could offer a discount on certain days, or times( our art gallery is free or by donation on Thursday nights) so that even the poor people can access culture, whether local or no.
I am not actually concerned exclusively about poverty in Thailand vs the West. There is no versus in my mind at all.
I am concerned with poverty, anywhere, and in how we determine what has value and who should have access to it.
"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."
Pooh-Bah
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
2,354 posts
Location: Away from home
Posted:
It suprises me that schemes which charge tourists or foreigners slightly more for what are usually 'luxury' services or products are viewed as exploitative. That just seems a very strong word.
Andrea - I hadn't thought of free nights at galleries as being part of this discussion but it fits in so well and I think it exemplifies the benefits of a sliding scale of pricing. The Brooklyn Museum in New York has a free night on the first Saturday of every month and not only is admission free, but special events are also put on in the museum space, such as dancing and talks. This strikes me as such a powerful way to build a community spirit and it makes me happy that such institutions can recognise that the value of holding these regular events is greater than the admission charge that they're foregoing.
Just to spread the discussion out from Thailand, Nepal also has a system for charging tourists. When I visited this was done by adding a 2% tax onto activities and products recognised as 'touristy' such as trekking and restaurant meals. I never gave a second thought that this was a fair and reasonable thing for me to be asked to pay and I certainly didn't feel that the recognition that I was a lot richer than the average Nepali was exploitative.
On the flip side of the argument though, Nepal changed the system in recent years to charge tourists a lump sum on leaving the country instead. This has caught up many Indian business men who live in Nepal and are still being charged the 'tourist tax'. They have recently been petitioning the Nepalese government to make them exempt as they pay their taxes in Nepal and are no tthe tourists at whom this levy is aimed.
Indian Traders protest tax
It suprises me that schemes which charge tourists or foreigners slightly more for what are usually 'luxury' services or products are viewed as exploitative. That just seems a very strong word.
Andrea - I hadn't thought of free nights at galleries as being part of this discussion but it fits in so well and I think it exemplifies the benefits of a sliding scale of pricing. The Brooklyn Museum in New York has a free night on the first Saturday of every month and not only is admission free, but special events are also put on in the museum space, such as dancing and talks. This strikes me as such a powerful way to build a community spirit and it makes me happy that such institutions can recognise that the value of holding these regular events is greater than the admission charge that they're foregoing.
Just to spread the discussion out from Thailand, Nepal also has a system for charging tourists. When I visited this was done by adding a 2% tax onto activities and products recognised as 'touristy' such as trekking and restaurant meals. I never gave a second thought that this was a fair and reasonable thing for me to be asked to pay and I certainly didn't feel that the recognition that I was a lot richer than the average Nepali was exploitative.
On the flip side of the argument though, Nepal changed the system in recent years to charge tourists a lump sum on leaving the country instead. This has caught up many Indian business men who live in Nepal and are still being charged the 'tourist tax'. They have recently been petitioning the Nepalese government to make them exempt as they pay their taxes in Nepal and are no tthe tourists at whom this levy is aimed.
Indian Traders protest tax
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I was addressing questions which I think play a significant role in the discussion. In no way I am questioning your intentions or assume that you move to Thailand for profit alone... I admire what you do and the way you do it. I'm not telling you to be "not smart", but I am saying that I consider it not to be smart, if these motifs don't play ANY role in your decision to relocate (in your profession as a goldsmith).
You're free to correct my picture. You want to see a different approach - I would like to see a different response = we're getting nowhere in the discussion, as we are assuming assumptions 
We too have free admission to museums and galleries once a week. We charge same price for products and services, we (usually) label each and every item (including ALL taxes), so everybody knows what he has to pay for and can compare prices from one place to the other. As Germans we are used to pay a fixed price, which is why (especially outside Europe) we frequently get taken advantage of. At the same time we are paying aid to third world countries, export our knowledge and jobs, do have a comparatively friendly immigration and asylum politics, a very high percentage of foreign citizens, or of foreign descent (which makes "sliding scales" merely impossible, without asking for an ID on every sales) and we're living in the centre of Europe, where literally everybody is a tourist after riding the car for more than 5 hours...
IMHO it's a misconception that a tourist has loads of money and is a millionaire by nature. There are ppl who can afford international travel ONCE in a few years. They want to taste the international flavour and why shouldn't they. If now the rest of the world (outside) turns into a Disneyland and they have to finance cultural heritages, because the local government is incapable, then international travel simply becomes unreasonably expensive, ppl stay home and mutual, multicultural understanding disappears.
This understanding is ESSENTIAL for a multi-cultural society. I feel the need to go to the places, our migrants come from in order to understand why they are who/ how they are; to get an understanding about what we in the West seem to lack in our social system.
Sliding scales promote cunning.
I was addressing questions which I think play a significant role in the discussion. In no way I am questioning your intentions or assume that you move to Thailand for profit alone... I admire what you do and the way you do it. I'm not telling you to be "not smart", but I am saying that I consider it not to be smart, if these motifs don't play ANY role in your decision to relocate (in your profession as a goldsmith).
You're free to correct my picture. You want to see a different approach - I would like to see a different response = we're getting nowhere in the discussion, as we are assuming assumptions
We too have free admission to museums and galleries once a week. We charge same price for products and services, we (usually) label each and every item (including ALL taxes), so everybody knows what he has to pay for and can compare prices from one place to the other. As Germans we are used to pay a fixed price, which is why (especially outside Europe) we frequently get taken advantage of. At the same time we are paying aid to third world countries, export our knowledge and jobs, do have a comparatively friendly immigration and asylum politics, a very high percentage of foreign citizens, or of foreign descent (which makes "sliding scales" merely impossible, without asking for an ID on every sales) and we're living in the centre of Europe, where literally everybody is a tourist after riding the car for more than 5 hours...
IMHO it's a misconception that a tourist has loads of money and is a millionaire by nature. There are ppl who can afford international travel ONCE in a few years. They want to taste the international flavour and why shouldn't they. If now the rest of the world (outside) turns into a Disneyland and they have to finance cultural heritages, because the local government is incapable, then international travel simply becomes unreasonably expensive, ppl stay home and mutual, multicultural understanding disappears.
This understanding is ESSENTIAL for a multi-cultural society. I feel the need to go to the places, our migrants come from in order to understand why they are who/ how they are; to get an understanding about what we in the West seem to lack in our social system.
Sliding scales promote cunning.
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
It is a myth that Thailand is a poor country. This becomes apparent, if looking at the fact that Thailand is high up on the world list on GDP - ranging therefore ahead of the Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden. This wealth however is not well distributed and there certainly is a lot of poverty, lack of access to educational facilities and health care institutions.
Hence it is a misconception that the rest of the world [i.e. the tourist] has to support Thailand in it's efforts to become a first world nation. It has to undertake own efforts.
For example there is still a lot of damage and suffering from the last Tsunami in the southern regions. When looking at the fact of the insurgency in the South and in connection with Thailand, refusing international Aid (because it feared it's Standard and Poors international credit rating to diminish) one might come to a different picture, than the popular belief.
Also I would like to point out the latest report, "Thailand economic report" issued April 2007 by the World Bank Office Bangkok:
It is a myth that Thailand is a poor country. This becomes apparent, if looking at the fact that Thailand is high up on the world list on GDP - ranging therefore ahead of the Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden. This wealth however is not well distributed and there certainly is a lot of poverty, lack of access to educational facilities and health care institutions.
Hence it is a misconception that the rest of the world [i.e. the tourist] has to support Thailand in it's efforts to become a first world nation. It has to undertake own efforts.
For example there is still a lot of damage and suffering from the last Tsunami in the southern regions. When looking at the fact of the insurgency in the South and in connection with Thailand, refusing international Aid (because it feared it's Standard and Poors international credit rating to diminish) one might come to a different picture, than the popular belief.
Also I would like to point out the latest report, "Thailand economic report" issued April 2007 by the World Bank Office Bangkok:
Written by: WB
Thailand's overall poverty is low, but it is still significant in poorer regions and rural areas.(...) Total exports topped US $ 130 billion, with exports of agriculture, as well as of labor-intensive and machinery manufacturers growing robustly.(...) The decline in private investment growth is not only problematic in terms of the current account but also in terms of adding to existing capacity.(...) This low growth last year would have been much lower if foreign investment did not rise at a real rate of nearly 18% [!!!], as private domestic investment experienced negative growth.(...) Thai investors, in both tradable and non-tradable sectors have remained skittish throughout the recovery period because of structural factors (...) and in part due to investment climate constraints like high regulatory burden, inadequate availability of right skills and a growing deficit of infrastructure.(...)
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
SILVER Member
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
currently mending
493 posts
Location: Bristol, New Zealand
Posted:
Sliding vs fixed prices?
As in progressive vs fixed rate taxation?
As far as anything related to capital goes, progressive taxation is a brilliant idea. Wealthy people contribute proportionately more to society as they can afford it. Perhaps someone ought to point out to Tom that Germany - along with the UK, US and most the 1st world has a progressive taxation system. ie not a fixed rate.
At a smaller scale I think its a good idea too... For example I help out with activist film nights... Our price is usually £3 but for the unemployed, asylum seekers etc we'll drop the price to free - its a firm no one turned away thru lack of funds policy.
Bearing in mind Europe's colonial past, and its current status in terms of wealth from exploitative multinationals such as BP, Shell and Nestle, allied to the fact that EU policies such as the CAP destroy the ability of third world farmers to compete with our subsidized produce (instead flooding them with our surplus)... having a moan about the way we get exploited by the third world is a fairly sickening joke.
For reference regarding aid... In 2004 the UK gave a whopping 0.2% of its GDP as foreign aid. Seeing as foreign aid usually comes tied to the IMF's 'structural adjustment' programs - basically the removal of any subsidies on basic foods, healthcare, education etc which helps open up all areas of the economy for further exploitation by 1st world multinationals - this arguably does more harm than good. Aid ought to be about helping the needy... Not helping multinationals raise profits.
With a history of imperial conquest, slavery and enduring economic and military domination we in the western europe ought to paying off a vast reparations bill to the worlds poor. Instead we keep on screwing them over. And still having the balls to moan when we get charged a little more for goods when we go travelling there because our comparative wealth affords us that luxury (and yes it is a luxury)...
Sliding vs fixed prices?
As in progressive vs fixed rate taxation?
As far as anything related to capital goes, progressive taxation is a brilliant idea. Wealthy people contribute proportionately more to society as they can afford it. Perhaps someone ought to point out to Tom that Germany - along with the UK, US and most the 1st world has a progressive taxation system. ie not a fixed rate.
At a smaller scale I think its a good idea too... For example I help out with activist film nights... Our price is usually £3 but for the unemployed, asylum seekers etc we'll drop the price to free - its a firm no one turned away thru lack of funds policy.
Written by: Firetom
we frequently get taken advantage of. At the same time we are paying aid to third world countries, export our knowledge and jobs, do have a comparatively friendly immigration and asylum politics,
Bearing in mind Europe's colonial past, and its current status in terms of wealth from exploitative multinationals such as BP, Shell and Nestle, allied to the fact that EU policies such as the CAP destroy the ability of third world farmers to compete with our subsidized produce (instead flooding them with our surplus)... having a moan about the way we get exploited by the third world is a fairly sickening joke.
For reference regarding aid... In 2004 the UK gave a whopping 0.2% of its GDP as foreign aid. Seeing as foreign aid usually comes tied to the IMF's 'structural adjustment' programs - basically the removal of any subsidies on basic foods, healthcare, education etc which helps open up all areas of the economy for further exploitation by 1st world multinationals - this arguably does more harm than good. Aid ought to be about helping the needy... Not helping multinationals raise profits.
With a history of imperial conquest, slavery and enduring economic and military domination we in the western europe ought to paying off a vast reparations bill to the worlds poor. Instead we keep on screwing them over. And still having the balls to moan when we get charged a little more for goods when we go travelling there because our comparative wealth affords us that luxury (and yes it is a luxury)...
He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Nietzsche
Stargazer
6,650 posts
6,650 posts
Posted:
I was not prepared for that... should have been...
There is no "progressive taxation", as in "sliding scale taxation" in Germany. The government is NOT trying to tax two millionaires a different rate. Tax: you earn 20.000 you pay x% - you earn 200.000 you pay xx% you earn 2 million you pay xxx% in taxes - same you, same me, fixed rate.
Now I'm all with you that those who have more should pay more - but as a matter of fact they don't (except for those who won the lottery/ got rich in a VERY short period). The first grocery discounter in Munich opened business in the richest neighborhood of town.
With few exceptions the "exploitation" of the 3rd world would never been possible without the assistance of their own leaders (see India or take slavery in Africa). Why are you repeating the slogans some put into your head to now feel guilty about something? "Hare Hare gullibility" - (btw you know that those who join the Hare Krishna Movement with a million on the account don't have to do all what those have to do without?)
I'm all with you on ending all subsidies, Dream. But it's a dangerous box, because some regard "social security" it as "social subsidization".
I was not prepared for that... should have been...
There is no "progressive taxation", as in "sliding scale taxation" in Germany. The government is NOT trying to tax two millionaires a different rate. Tax: you earn 20.000 you pay x% - you earn 200.000 you pay xx% you earn 2 million you pay xxx% in taxes - same you, same me, fixed rate.
Now I'm all with you that those who have more should pay more - but as a matter of fact they don't (except for those who won the lottery/ got rich in a VERY short period). The first grocery discounter in Munich opened business in the richest neighborhood of town.
With few exceptions the "exploitation" of the 3rd world would never been possible without the assistance of their own leaders (see India or take slavery in Africa). Why are you repeating the slogans some put into your head to now feel guilty about something? "Hare Hare gullibility" - (btw you know that those who join the Hare Krishna Movement with a million on the account don't have to do all what those have to do without?)
I'm all with you on ending all subsidies, Dream. But it's a dangerous box, because some regard "social security" it as "social subsidization".
the best smiles are the ones you lead to
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com