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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:This thought was brought on by the veggies have feelings too thread, in which meat eaters are being told that veggies cause less harm to the environment than meat eaters due to meat packing industries, and that if people had to hunt and butcher their own meat, they wouldn't eat it.

To me, this is such a subjective and narrow statement, as most statements like this are.

I am a hunters daughter. I have killed and skinned my own meat and enjoyed every succulent morsel of it. In doing so I also helped with population control since there have been *horrific* deer issues here, starvation being one, which is a horrible thing to witness. Therefore, I, or my family, is doing something which is actually ending some suffering.

I have known many, MANY "ecologists" who drive some *very* old, gas guzzling, black smoke spitting cars because they are what "hippies are supposed to drive".

I have known conservationists who subscribe to tonnes of magazines and read papers they could have gotten at the library or even online.

There are many, many people who claim to be environmentally friendly, are die hard vegan, as they set up their art shops and use chemicals, fuels and other destructive elements in their "art".

And I also know people who are not die hard eco-warriors who do alot, beyond the recycle, reduce, reuse..but you would never know it. I have seen them be targetted by those who would "save the world" but only at their convenience.

It makes me weary because it is so subjective. Even the studies and the reports published are subjective, depending on which ones you follow. People demand articles as "evidence" but when you have international scientists using vague statements (as in the recent "It has been found that it is highly likely that humans are the cause of global warming." As published on Onedegree.com ..well, duh.) it makes it hard, especially because many will just dispute for their side and not believe any that are offered up. If they were really interested in both sides, they would have looked at both sides to start off with.

Which brings me to, how do you define how you *personally* help to save your corner (not what you do, but how do you define it?)
Do you expect others to take any action as well, or do you expect others to take actions in the same manner as you?

What are the concessions that you feel are unreasonable on the whole? ie: What won't you give up?

*please note, I do not wish for debates, arguements or who is right statements in this thread. As I said, I think it is subjective according to each persons life and I think that pressing our views onto someone we really don't knows life is..well..just asking for trouble. I also do not want links to articles about this stat or that stat because they honestly mean very little to me. I am interested in personal experience and opinions based on that only. Thank you.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:At the beginning you write this;

 Written by: Pele



To me, this is such a subjective and narrow statement, as most statements like this are.





in reference to my statements based on personal experience (most meat eaters wouldnt eat meat if they had to kill it - ie the meat eaters I've known and had this conversation with are mostly too scared to kill and butcher), and then later you say;

 Written by: Pele



I am interested in personal experience and opinions based on that only. Thank you.



that you are only interested in subjective statements and these are the ones that have meaning.

Im not sure which you are interested in - cuz you seem at first to be bashing the use of personal experience, and then bashing the use of research and academic sources and saying that personal experience and opinions based on it are the only valid information.

I'm not a vego BTW - I eat hunted feral meat ie rabbit and kangaroo, and also meat thats grown on our farm (and occassionally fish - but I'm reducing this).

Is an argument wrong or right depending on who is using it? Surely not.


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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:as for the use of stats - guess what? if you dont buy factory meat, you arent counted in the stats of the number of people who buy factory meat! Your part of that minority.

To base your behaviour about global issues only on your personal experience living in the most insulated economy on the planet has got to be a little short sighted.


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:When it comes to whose right or wrong in saving the earth, yes, they are pretty subjective. Until studies are conclusive and equal, and the scientists will back it firmly enough to take a unified action...it's all speculation and wavering percentages. That doesn't give me faith or conviction as much as the fact that I *know* it is warmer here. I *know* the weather is extremely messed up and disrupted in it's typical patterns. I *know* that I have seen some seriously confused geese. I don't need science to tell me these things in percentages, I have experienced them.

Actually, your original statement was "I think we'd have a lot less meat eating if the meat eaters had to kill their own meat and butcher it to get their meat." which is a blanket statement of speculation about others, and did not show it was a personal one based on personal conversations. A personal one is "I would/n't eat meat if I had to kill it because...." or "The friends I have spoken with about this..."
There is a large difference.

I also have no intention of continuing the discussion from that thread here. If I did, I would've continued to post there. I am interested in what people view, in their own lives, as being helpful. That's it.
I find it particularly interesting because there are *alot* of new US legislatures going through in various states which will be telling us what we can and can not do in our homes and lives in order to help, not only greenhouse effect, but other environmental issues. There are also a fair few global movements in the ecological department on the tables, so I am interested to see what people already do in their lives.

And please, don't bring that "You're American" crap up here (taken from the "insulated economy" statement). In fact, it has no place in this conversation thanks. I'm American because this is where I was born. It doesn't mean I am blind, or ignorant, or whatever. Because you do not know me, or my experiences, that is an extremely unjustified statement.

People are blamed personally when in these discussions. Ecowarriors will call people murders based on their choice to use wood, to eat meat, to use aeresol, whatever. Judgements of a persons character are always being made based on one aspect of a life. Therefore, basing this on personal experience is not short sighted at all, it is pragmatic because that is what people actually *know* for certain. We can read conflicting reports and vague statements until our ears bleed but we are the sum of our personal choices, all of them, not just one area. Therefore, basing any discussion upon that is extremely valid. Change, global or otherwise, starts with one persons choice, with one persons experience. So then, why wouldn't it be suitable to have a conversation about it from a personal perspective? (it's rhetorical because I do not want this to turn into a debate on whether you feel the question is valid. Obviously you have made a personal choice that you feel helps and have expressed it. Others have that right too and so I just want experiences that have/have not worked that were hoped/believed to have helped in some small way).


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:ok ok - I'll play the game - no more debate about the topic - just input that fits in.



--



From my own personal experiences I have no conclusive evidence that there is anything significantly different happening with the weather since I was born. Except I think perhaps I get sunburnt more easily. Probly cuz I forget to put sunscreen on I guess, or maybe I'm getting old. wink


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: Pyrolific


ok ok - I'll play the game - no more debate about the topic - just input that fits in.

--

From my own personal experiences I have no conclusive evidence that there is anything significantly different happening with the weather since I was born. Except I think perhaps I get sunburnt more easily. Probly cuz I forget to put sunscreen on I guess, or maybe I'm getting old. wink




Well, that would help! lol

I find that really interesting because here it is something everyone is noticing, the differences. I am not too up on the climate where you are (other than it gets hot). Is it a place where it is relatively steady in temperature year round, thus making it hard to notice? For example here we have extremely dynamic weather differences and it makes it very easy to notice. Our temperatures swing with 100 degreeF differences throughout the year, unlike some south-western areas where the differnce is only about 40 to 50 degrees. Did that make sense?

Btw, based on my conversations with some people I know, I am inclined to agree with you about the meat eating statement based more towards women than men. Hunting is part of the local culture where I grew up, primarily for the men, and only with allotted permiture. However, there is a growing number of women joining in so in a couple years my experience in this may shift. So while it serves the purpose of population control, we also get to eat for quite some time on it.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:just to pick up on the first point, the reason meat eaters cause more harm to the planet is because of the quantity of fresh water it takes to make 1 kilo of meat compared to 1 kilo of grain.

Since one of the biggest problems the planet faces is quality and quantity of fresh water, meat eaters make a bad situation very much worse.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: TheWibbler


just to pick up on the first point, the reason meat eaters cause more harm to the planet is because of the quantity of fresh water it takes to make 1 kilo of meat compared to 1 kilo of grain.

Since one of the biggest problems the planet faces is quality and quantity of fresh water, meat eaters make a bad situation very much worse.

m



Hey Wib, that belongs in the other thread please, not here.

What do you do, personally, to help?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Wooktastic
Wooktastic

the kicker of elves
Location: Dublin
Member Since: 10th Jan 2007
Total posts: 371
Posted:I personally, think the way treat animals through farming, taking them away from their natural lifestyle is disgusting. I would much prefer hunting myself and letting them live as they're supposed to.

As for what I do to help the environment, I never throw away anything that won't decompose (i've no problem throwing away ordinary paper, card or wood because they will rot), I take public transport or just walk, I scavenge, if I find anything ANYTHING remotely useful that's been thrown out I will use it. I try to buy things produced from natural rather than artificial materials.


Man is no more than a conduit for excrement to pass through.- daVinci

Jointly owned by BurdA and Tinypixie

Wielder of the voice of Patrick Stewart

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i limit my garbage and do the reuse recycle thing...i walk when i can and get my car errands down to one trip...public transportation when i went to college
i am not a large consumer and don't buy a lot of things in general other than food when i plant i use local indegeonous plants and remove invasives...if only i could get my family and neighbors to do the same


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Hi Pele wave

I'd love to share my feeling about 'how to save the planet', and what i do, although they are not fully clear even to me at times!

I work for Greenpeace. Many people do not like us for one reason or another, but I'd rather not debate that just now.

I feel that this is a positive thing to do because:
I get to raise awareness about a variety of environmental issues (note the word 'issues', which simply means that they are matters to be addressed) - such as deforestation, fishing, pollution, toxic chemicals, nuclear power and arms, and climate.
I get access to thousands of 'experts' in a variety of fields from energy engineering to ecology, from the military to oil companies etc, and am therefore able to explore these issues from a range of perspectives.
I have to challenge my beliefs and outlooks every single day, which makes them more balanced and ultimately more thoroughly developed.
I get to talk to hundreds of people every day about issues that affect them.
I get to empower people about small changes they can make, as well as large decisions that they can affect.
I get to be part of an organisation that causes global debate on issues that need to be raised, which would almost certainly not be given the time of day without such organisations.
As well as recycling, walking/cycling, not flying shorthaul or for holidays, being an extremely conscienceous consumer etc....I get to affect a level of activity well out of my normal boundaries - on industrial, corporate and political levels.

I could go on all night...........

ubbrollsmile


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Yay for working the personal!!!!!

There are some great ideas there.

And btw Fnf, it's wonderful to see you again! hug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Psyri
Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 1576
Posted:I walk all over the place. I don't drive. Cycle when I can get the chance. But I imagine many rocks are feeling somewhat detached :S

When I camp I use dead wood. I don't like hacking at trees. Btw if you're screwed for firelighters, natures natural firelighters happen to be pine cones. No serious I actually kept a fire going 20mins in the rain.. it wasn't torrential but scouting around in some woods for em I amassed a big pile of them.

I recycle my clothes.... you can make so much out of a few scraps of fabric, or I just decorate them with beads, embroidery

i tell people not to burn tents, or gas bottles

when i get a garden big enough i'll grow veggies

i cellotape my glasses loooool

I'm sure I'll think of more smile


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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:yup lots of walking
we do grow some veggies in a little garden...bunnies at the squash and pumpkin
haven't been camping but lots of dead wood or trees cut down by trimmers and such


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:My veggie garden failed last year. Got some but not the yeild I should have. frown I need to redo the soil this year as when I did fall clean-up I realised there is *alot* more clay in it than I figured. I want to plant dwarf fruit trees this year, and expand my herb garden. I'm excited to see where my grapes, raspberries and blueberries go this year and what they yield, since they don't on the first year planting. Though I look most forward to my strawberries!

I hadn't thought about recycling my laundry water, and that is a great idea that Ade put up in the desalinization thread. I think I am going to do that. We're looking at installing a fireplace, sky lights and a solar tube in the next couple years.
When the weather is not freezing, I also hang the laundry to dry.

I don't drive much, but when I do it is usually long haul. When I bought my new car I actually bought a smaller one that does better.

I'm part way through building my compost bin as well. I have a compost pile, but I'd prefer a bin as they are more effecient.

We don't ever take baths here and none of us take really long showers.

I also use newspaper, paper towels that I simply wiped my hands on (not ones I used to clean up) to make crafts and paper. I do this anyway, but to reuse into something new vs. throw away is nice.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:These are all things that are fantastic, and I wish every person was as aware and proactive.

But how are they helping us to change the bigger picture, to spread the word, to implement the fundamental changes within our industries and governments that are necessary to have a significant, prompt impact??

shrug


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted: Written by: fluffy napalm fairy


But how are they helping us to change the bigger picture, to spread the word, to implement the fundamental changes within our industries and governments that are necessary to have a significant, prompt impact??
shrug



That would be our duty as consumers


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:It's why I asked this thread be from a personal perspective silly! wink

Because the rest leads to alot of debates and arguements that goes nowhere. However, spreading awareness that people can implement things in their own homes and lives, small changes, actually does effect industry when enough people do it. But...people need to have the ideas on what can be done personally..and I think that is the problem. Not enough people believe they can make a difference personally and everyone looks at the bigger picture. I am trying to use this discussion as a way to look at the smaller picture, to give options.
wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Eera
old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay
Member Since: 29th May 2003
Total posts: 1107
Posted:I do little things, that for me are convenient. I've brought them up before, but they are: I deliberately bought a house within walking distance of work. I have solar hot water, thinking seriously about getting solar power, I have water tanks, compost anything compostable, recycle anything else that I can, don't accept junk mail (we get a lot down our road).

But I do these things simply because they save me money. I work in the coal mining industry, it's where I've been for the past 4 weeks. I have no illusions about the impact of that, but equally spending large amounts of time in communities which are solely dependent on mining I have massive sympathy for their future too.

Equally, I can only afford my house and the solar power etc through my industry, which really does pay a silly amount. Maybe one doesn't offset the other, but until someone invents a windmill-powered blast furnace we're going to need that coking coal.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted: Written by: Pele


It's why I asked this thread be from a personal perspective silly! wink



Erm - it is people who make up industries, governments and big businesses. It is the action of individual people on a personal level that affect the way that other people act. It is our personal choice as to whether we stand up for what we wish to achieve, or whether we chose not to.

I think you get my drift.
You cannot seperate the two.
Sure, I don't want do discuss the policies of massive corporations, the ins and outs of politics and the global impacts of major industries, cos that's not what this thread is about.
I am asking simply what we personally are doing to guide these things that are outside or our immediate 'recycling' sphere of influence.

Stout - smile


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You want to really save this planet?

Take a one way ticket on the next space ship...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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oli
not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...
Member Since: 24th Jul 2003
Total posts: 2052
Posted:the planet is fine, it dosnt need saving... people need saving (and that is a whole fresh kettle of fish, do we deserve to be saved? say from the points of view of oak trees and tigers and cod...)

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: Pele



Which brings me to, how do you define how you *personally* help to save your corner (not what you do, but how do you define it?)







What do you mean by this Pele?



Do you mean delimiting? deciding? Is it something like the philosophical underpinning of actions that you are after?



In other words can you define what you mean by defining? The contributions to the thread that you have found acceptable so far are descriptions of *what* people do... but you said you wanted something else.... so is there a level missing?


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Ok I'll bite then...even though I first viewed this thread as merely restating things that we already all know and need a kick in the ass to put into practice.

I don't really like driving all that much, and from 1984 to 1993 I refused to own a car. My choice was based on both environmental and financial reasoning so I used to either commute by bicycle ( one hour each way ) or hydroelectric powered public transit ( elevated train ) I then hit on the brilliant idea of actually moving within walking distance of where I work and this served me well until I became self employed in 1999.

Now I only really go to work about 100 days a year and I live an 8 minute drive from the "office". I'd walk or cycle, but I have about a hundred kilos of stuff to haul with me every day ( no storage ) and I'm currently looking into just where I'd store a bicycle trailer in the off season. This has come at the cost of not buying a house because property in this neck of the woods is horrifically expensive, and were we really needing to buy, we'd have to move an hour out of town..and commute daily. So we rent a suite in a house that was originally designed as a single family dwelling.. thereby reducing the amount of space we take up on the planet.

We've sacrificed property ownership and space in favour of less time spent commuting and therefore less fossil fuels burned and that really adds up over the years. Over on the flying thread I said I only drive 4000 km/year, which I know is low when compared to the national average, and over on some other thread I mentioned all those fishing trips I go on...but neglected to mention that those fishing trips have me driving with two other people in the car. These trips account for about a third of all my driving, so on those , I can split the carbon debt by three.

I generally suck as a consumer..meaning I buy something, and use it until it's "expired" ( I only now just replaced a stereo that I bought second hand in 1984) This is something I could market that I'm doing to help save the planet, but my real motivation is that I don't want my life cluttered with worthless crap. I just donate things I no longer want or need to those who do actually want them and really think before buying anything.

I'd like to say I don't fly,,and I do have some trips planned in the future to exotic destinations, but I haven't flown in the past three years, and probably won't for several more, but I'm not really worried about it, I've done enough travelling, and can shrug it off with a "been there, done that" philosophy.

So there you have it..a reduced dependence on fossil fuels, not made without sacrifices and made as a lifestyle choice,, but as an bonus, I now have more money than I know what to do with ( but I still can't buy a house in this town.)

Anyways small things I also do to help the planet.

I don't buy newspapers and haven't since getting this computer 4 years ago. I get all my news online. I do pick up the odd free paper but return it to the rack after I've finished reading it.
I don't buy cut Christmas trees, haven't for the past 25 years.
I use a washing machine..but hang all my clothes to dry..even in the winter so my decor quite often consists of draped fabrics.
I don't eat out very often..and don't eat fast food.
I don't own any fun, fossil burning toys. like dirt bikes and ski boats although I used to.

Aw crap..windows insists on restarting my computer..but you get the idea of where I'm coming from when it comes to making lifestyle choices and their relationship to the health of the environment. Maybe I'm just lucky that my personal tastes dovetail nicely with environmental concerns..or maybe I just lead a boring life.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I don't drive and never have done. Transport is either walking, public transport or unicycle smile



This is despite being self-employed in running workshops in circus skills etc. Generally that would necessitate a van/car- to get round that I focus on working locally and providing workshops that cater to local needs/community groups- also by doing workshops in arts/crafts to increase work.



Since my teens I've been either vegan or vegetarian- currently I eat very occasional fish.



I don't buy newspapers or christmas trees.



Where tecnology is concerned, I hang back- my stereo is over ten years old and was given to me, my pc is generally a couple of years behind the 'cutting edge'.



I try to minimise contributing to economic 'growth' by having interests that don't necessitate expensive equipment and by valuing free-time over money ie I live cheaply.



I've only flown once.



Just as important though, is that I make the above work for me- most UK-ers would go up the wall trying to live like this, whereas I don't feel at all deprived.



If there's ever anything I want and can't afford, I remind myself that many of those who can afford it, sacrifice much of their life in jobs that aren't particularly good, in order to pay for it.



And I understand why and how it works for me- underlying my actions and choices listed above is a coherent practical philosophy that has been developing for the 40 years of my life.



Most of the destruction humans inflict upon the planet, the environment, on animals and, ultimately, on humans and themselves, is unnecessary and done on the mistaken assumption that it carries benefits in some kind of overall pro/con scale of balance.



IMO, happiness can never be gained by inflicting harm or acquiring goods- happiness comes from a different place.



So, another thing I do that is very practical, is, when I see flawed reasoning as in the other thread mentioned in the first post, is try to show consisely why it is flawed.



(In the interests of not derailing this thread, i'll post the link of the vegetarianism thread for anyone who wants to discuss anything connected with it-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...c=1#Post772887)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I don't buy papers but we have alot of free ones here. That is what I use to make my crafts. They don't go through them from the stand every week so I don't bother putting them back.

I don't do fresh cut christmas trees on moral principle. I have a *hard* time justifying cutting something beautiful down for aesthetic pleasure for such a limited amount of time. I really don't care if it gets mulched afterward. I don't like wood mulch either (and am trying to figure out how to get it out of the flower beds that the people we bought this house from had without destroying the plants).
I don't like fresh cut flowers much for the same reason. I feel guilty when they die.

I like how Eera, you mentioned that it's convenient for you. I like the honesty of that. I know I do primarily what is convenient for us. I think most people do. I think people like OWD and Stout are admirable, and rare.
I think Stout also brings up a good point about housing costs...but I think that might be another thread for some other day.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:not to argue, but there are trees that don't get sold...i think i would rather have one and enjoy it than it just get tossed
i will take a charlie brown tree


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Psyri
Psyri

artisan
Location: Berkshire, UK
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 1576
Posted:oh and as soon as I get some dosh I intend to buy a solar powered charger.... then when I get my lappy I can soak up the rays at festies feeling a bit more chuffed with myself. *when will we get bio tech?* :S

Big problem for anyone who drives is the fact that our governments are still obsessed with money and power. A few people who have filed patents for renewable clean energy sources have been silenced in one way or another.
As for the whole bio-fuels there are many extra considerations that actualy cancel out the benefits.... it's just a bypass to maintain the oil power for longer. Wheat/rapeseed/corn prices have already soared in the US.... tortilla prices stink. Plus farmers wishing to participate in this agri-business are allotting their resources to growing for the fuel benefit and may actually cause a food shortage. Then there's people wanting to start out in this area of 'profit' and this means that the rainforest we have been trying to save and other areas will get lopped down to create more plantations. Then of course it doesn't help to cut CO2 emissions....

another viscous circle that has been started.

:S


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


not to argue, but there are trees that don't get sold...i think i would rather have one and enjoy it than it just get tossed
i will take a charlie brown tree



Why do you think the trees are in the shop in the first place?

Do you realise that your 'argument' justifies anything, including the arms trade and slavery?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I think what OWD is, harshly, saying is that if you buy it, then you create the demand and therefore they will continue to chop them down.
After the season they will do an inventory count and chop accordingly the following year. So if 10 trees sit on the lot this year, that is 10 that do not get chopped down next year (my neighbors growing up ran a turf farm in summer and a tree farm in winter).

Its simply supply and demand.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:i took econ to for my resource management...still will take a charlie brown tree...
maybe your friend did it that way, but if i go to a seller at the last minute while he is getting rid of the trees...i'll do it
and saying that justifies anything like slavery is stupid and overreactionary


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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