Forums > Social Discussion > Saddam execution= death of 10 yo?

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Read article

Okay...I have big issues with this, BIG.
More importantly I have issues that a clinical psychologist would propose this as a game.

As the parent of an 11 yo, I understand how impressionable they are, truly. However, they do know consequence. Noah has been taught his whole life that you don't wrap stuff around your neck, for example. He has friends and I know for a fact that they all saw and know of the Saddam execution. We discussed it. I know for a fact that a couple of them live pretty rough lives and yet not one of them thought "You know, I didn't get a Christmas pressie that I wanted so let me fake hanging myself." My guess is thousands of children know about this...and yet, we're not flooded with a spike in adolescent hangings.

All blaming of media for singular events I have issues with. Like Manson for Columbine.

It's all about accountability.
It's become entirely too easy to look around and blame someone else.

And yes, kids do think of these things on their own. Long before Saddam my brother in law's nephew hung himself at the age of 14. He dressed in a costume, did his chores while his mom and sister ran to the store and by the time they came home, he was hanging from the stairwell...but not far from the ground. It sucks but only *he* it sucks but even his family knows that only *he* was to blame for his actions.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I understand how upsetting this news story is.
However, the number one cause of death for children aged 1- 15 years is accidents.
Children drown, strangle themselves, suffocate. However this is rarely reported in the media. Many childhood tragedies happen every day.

Pele I'm sorry to hear about your nephew, that's awful.

I don't think Saddam's execution can be blamed for children's accidental deaths.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Jo, he wasn't *my* nephew. I only sort-of knew him so it doesn't break me down or anything. He is the nephew of my Brother-in-law.

I agree that many accidents happen everyday, and the fact that this one is being blamed on the Saddam execution is laughable and disgusting.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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EndOn9
BRONZE Member since Jan 2007

EndOn9

newbie
Location: , England (UK)

Total posts: 18
Posted:I agree, although it's nothing new. "Copy-cat" behaviour has often been fingered as the reason for dangerous acts (particularly in children). Violent computer games anyone? Or perhaps some video nasties? Maybe someone should blame the latest rock star for child taking up a gun and shooting up their fellow class mates.
God forbid that there be some other problem with the person in question, far closer to home. Or that there was some negligence on the part of the person who was supposed to be looking after them.
Better yet, usually it gives them someone to sue.


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JTSpinner
SILVER Member since Aug 2006

JTSpinner

Learnin About Burnin
Location: Michigan, USA

Total posts: 385
Posted:Bravo EO9!! People are always looking for someone to blame their problems on and the circumstances of their decisions. In my opinion, the number one problem in society as a whole is the refusal to accept responsibility for our actions and our conduct. Also, parents are always looking for someone to blame for their childs behavior (or actually misbehavior). Teachers aren't doing their job, the Principal failed to detect this childs deviant behavior; anyone who can be blamed will be blamed and the parents are the first ones to point fingers because "That wasn't my responsibility as a parent". This is now being passed on to the new generation also. As they have children, they remember that their parents did not and would not accept responsibility for them so they do not have to accept responsibility for their kids behavior. ooooops soapbox soapbox shrug

I may be crazy but I ain't stupid

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:so in the end there'S another death that S.H. is being held accountable for?

my condolences for the family ubbcrying


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: JTSpinner


Also, parents are always looking for someone to blame for their childs behavior (or actually misbehavior).




Can you please add a conditional to this that *many* parents do this. I strive to teach my son accountability. I will fully admit my shortcomings as a parent AND I recognise the strengths and weaknesses of my child in full and hold him responsible for his choices.

As I said earlier, media is no excuse for poor parenting.

According to the article he died while on the watch of an Uncle. However a child of ten can usually be trusted to play in his/her room.
So where is the line drawn from having to watch the child every moment to allowing him/her to exercise a bit of independence.

I don't believe at 10 anyone should have to keep the child in the room with them all the time. But then if someone had, he would not have died. I can't remember if it said how long he'd been dead by the time he was found but I know I check on my son about ever 20-30 minutes if I don't hear anything for that amount of time. Now I wonder is that often enough? And then I wonder if I checked more often if it is obsessive and an intrusion on his development.

Stupid conundrums.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireByNite
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 349
Posted:I think at 10 years old, even though they are "curious" about Saddam Hussein, they should know better than to imitate the actions that they see on tv.
I agree with you Pele, it's very easy to wonder if you check on your son often enough or not. I must admit, 20 - 30 minutes seems to be the "general" time to check on your kids from talking to my friends about this.

Somehow I think that there must've been something "wrong" with the boy in the first place as the 10 year olds I know (my son and friends) wouldn't ever dream of copying something like that.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Most kids do stupid things from time to time when their parents aren't watching, and most kids get away with it. And most children don't do stupid things for MOST of the time, but every now and then they do (like that kid), or something happens (say in a swimming pool, even if it's just 30 seconds that you're not watching them).

When I was in primary school, our parents didn't want us to watch Bugs Bunny or Tom and Jerry because apparently somewhere a kid got locked into a fridge by its sibling who'd seen that in the cartoons. There's always going to be the odd imitation, but if tv was THAT bad, the Western World would be empty of people by now.

It's tragic, but I'd blame neither tv, nor the person who thought the boy could be left alone to play, unless they really should've known better and the boy had got himself into trouble all the time before.

By the way, I read in the paper that in Pakistan (I think) another boy aged nine died hanging himself off a ceiling fan, with the help of his sister frown


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Total posts: 3556
Posted:umm, why do they believe that he tried to copy the execution...
hangings appear in RL Stine and Christopher Pike books...they appear in movies, was it just timing that makes people think that


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


umm, why do they believe that he tried to copy the execution...
hangings appear in RL Stine and Christopher Pike books...they appear in movies, was it just timing that makes people think that



Yes, and an Uncle saying that he and the boy watched a news thing about it where they showed the noose going over the head of Saddam.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Icarus
GOLD Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 165
Posted:I don't think the uncle should have ended the conversation about the hanging with ' because he was really bad' is appropriate and it does show a level of disinterest in the raising of his nephew BUT...
i read these posts and it seems that some of you seem to be blaming the family or another source 'close to home'. I have worked with troubled children and kids who are mentally challenged to some extent and a really common behaviour (i assume in all kids) is copying adults and playing out things they have seen them do... particularly because the hanging was so real and probably effected his uncle in some way he could sence. Its how kids learn... and i think if the hanging wasn't explained to him he could definately have thought he could pretend.
I think writting it off as a family problem is simplifiying it. I thing the hanging could have been the trigger.


xox


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FireByNite
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 349
Posted: Written by: Icarus


I have worked with troubled children and kids who are mentally challenged to some extent and a really common behaviour (i assume in all kids) is copying adults and playing out things they have seen them do...



It is a really common behavior in all kids from what I've seen.
The main reason imo that people may be "blaming"the family is the fact a typical child by 10 years of age knows damn well that even if things on tv are real, you cannot copy them most of the time.
Most parents I know (myself included) start teaching that to their children from a young age.
It is not normal behavior for a 10 y.o. to see a hanging on tv and "pretend" hang himself. That would show that he was a very troubled child mentally or not enough teching within the family.


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DrBoo
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom

Total posts: 453
Posted: Written by: Pele


More importantly I have issues that a clinical psychologist would propose this as a game.




I'm not sure what you meant by this, Pele. As far as I could tell, the psychologist was noting that children often try and do things, as a form of experimentation, because they think it may be fun, or "just to see what will happen", when they are too young to think it through or know what could happen.

In this case, the psych was saying that he thought that TV was the influence, and he may well be wrong about that (or certainly I think that blaming the execution may be reaching a bit!) but his point is essentially correct - with children these things often start as "experiments", which kids thin would be fun to try, that go horribly wrong as they have not considered what the consequences could be.

Was it what the psychologist was saying about kids thinking it is fun to act things out, that you disagreed with, or that he thought that TV was the trigger in this case?

xx


Boo x

I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:As many, including myself have pointed out, we know many children of this age who know better than to mimic this type of behaviour. They are far more intelligent than that.

Mimicking this type of death is not a game and they are old enough to understand this.
Mimicking someones speech or actions, game.
Putting a noose around your neck and jumping, not game.

I disagree that he thought the tv was the trigger. In fact, in the article it said that this child was angry because he father skipped out on christmas.

I get furious with people who insist books, tv and music are "triggers" for poor behaviour because there are millions of children who are exposed to the same things day in and day out who do not have such a reaction.

They didn't address what was wrong with the child and put it off on games and mimicry, which obviously if the "anger" statement needed to be said meant there was more going on that should have been addressed.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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DrBoo
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom

Total posts: 453
Posted: Written by: Pele


I get furious with people who insist books, tv and music are "triggers" for poor behaviour because there are millions of children who are exposed to the same things day in and day out who do not have such a reaction.




Pele, I totally agree with you on that one.


Boo x

I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?

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EndOn9
BRONZE Member since Jan 2007

EndOn9

newbie
Location: , England (UK)

Total posts: 18
Posted: Written by: Icarus


I think writting it off as a family problem is simplifiying it. I thing the hanging could have been the trigger.



That might be the case, but as someone else already said, thousands of other kids would have seen the same news report
without hanging themselves. This suggests to me that the news report isn't really the issue here. There was more likely a problem with the child. Quite possibly it was just a horrible accident.

 Written by: Pele


I get furious with people who insist books, tv and music are "triggers" for poor behaviour because there are millions of children who are exposed to the same things day in and day out who do not have such a reaction.




This is really the thing isn't it? Even if this whole business was just a horrible accident (as it probably was), the thing that always irks me about something like this is that people always want to deamonise something (anything!) else as the problem and are extreamly reluctant to even entertain the fact that the problem was with the specific child or perhaps there is acctually no-one for them to really lay the blame on.


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M33k0
BRONZE Member since Jan 2007

member
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA

Total posts: 78
Posted: Written by: Pele


All blaming of media for singular events I have issues with. Like Manson for Columbine.




I couldn't agree with you more. I have no problems admitting I was a pretty messed up child growing up. I had thought about hanging myself numerous times... from the time around 4th grade through 7th grade. I knew what hanging myself was, and how it was not a joke, so I fail to see that this child could of possibly done it by imitating Saddam, without knowing the consequences. But I could be wrong, regardless, a childs life is lost and that is sad.

But the reason I agree with you.... I live in Colorado and remember how crazy it was after Columbine. Dylan and Eric were [censored] up kids to say the least. But blaming music and media for what kids do is not right. I listened to much of the same music Eric and Dylan did, and also watch many of the same movies. I didn't shoot up a school, and I was picked on so much it nearly drove me over the edge, but never would I take one's life. The taunting is what drove me insane, not a video game, not a movie. Eric and Dylan were teenagers, not tiny kids who don't know right from wrong.

It's sad when kids do things like this, and I do feel sorry for kids like Eric and Dylan. But I don't think what they did was right. And for the 10 year old, I feel bad he did it but I don't think he thought it was a game or did not know the consequences. Some kids are tormented to the point of extreme measures, and it's sad, but look at all the violence and suicides that happen from young kids... it's not a new concept, it happens over and over again. But what is everyone doing to stop it?! We arent doing anything but placing the blame on someone else.


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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:I think that the media gives us a distorted view of the world. The world is actually in much better shape than you would ever believe from reading the papers. There are roughly 6 billion people on this planet, thats 5 billion, 999 million 999 thousand and 999 who didn't hang themselves after seeing Saddam's execution. With so many people there will always be a few who do crazy and stupid things. I believe that this is not a modern phenomenon, infant mortality and suicide was probably just as prevalent in times before the mass media.

The effect of the mass media has not been to create a huge number of suicidal/homicidal nutcases rather to bring this always present minority to our attention. There's nothing that can be done about the occasional person committing suicide or going on a murderous rampage. What we can do is get a sense of perspective. Things are actually better now than they ever have been.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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Icarus
GOLD Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 165
Posted:The fact that 1000s of people saw the same program and didn't hang themselves is an argument that has been used for a long time and has never made sence to me. I don't think that every child who is exposed to a certain tv segment will react the same way. All may be effected but not everyone will kill themselves... maybe 1 in 10000?
This is stuff any first year psych/education student will know but to put it in really basic and quick terms - children are exposed to risk factors. Coming from a single parent family, abuse, coming from a low-income family, low birth weigh and low IQ are the first risk factors that come to mind. But there are a ga-zillion others. Having any of these puts you at risk of becoming psycologicaly "unstable" in later life.
Each child is effected by each risk factor differently and protective factors (eg a mum who sits down and explains things to you!) and genetics also come into the equation. And multiple risk factors increase the risk exponentially.
We could also count exposure to video games or violent tv as a risk factor and work it into the equation.

But, the reason i am actually rambling is because saying that 1000 kids watched the same show and they weren't effected is (sorry but...) ridiculous.
Every child is different. Every child will be effected differently. Being a parent gives you an amazing insight but it doesn't make you able to predict this childs behaviour (i am not directing this at anyone personally).
Two other (hopefully quick) points.
1. i was never saying this child wasn't troubled. In fact he made me think of many of the kids i have worked with and thats why i brought up "troubled" children. I think he would definately would have shown many warning symptoms and if he had had mothers like some of you then it never would have happened.
2. I am not saying that i blame the the media, although i do think they often do sensationalise such events. I think it was the trigger, not the cause.

xox


... simplify ...

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FireByNite
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Total posts: 349
Posted:Fair enough. I see what you're saying.

Whatever the cause, my heart goes out to the family concerned hug
I wouldn't wish it on any parent.
I guess that's why some of us parents think that there "must of been something wrong" or "the media is to blame" 'cos none of us would ever want to contemplate that our "little boy" could ever be "silly" enough to do something like hanging himself.

Like the old "it won't happen to me" concept


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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:I'm not saying that in this case watching the death of Saddam didn't trigger the death of this 10 year-old.



What I'm saying is that it is foolish indeed to attempt to draw conclusions from a single case.



As humans we find it much easier to engague on a personal level. The story of one child being abused, and finally driven to suicide can move us far more than hearing about a war in Africa killing 10,000. The papers here even have a rule of thumb, 10,000 deaths in Africa equate to one death here in terms of newsworthyness. Of course, if it's children that are involved that makes it more newsworthy again. Two girls missing paedophile suspected screams the front page, genocide in Darfur continues page 12.



With so many people there will always be a few who do stupid things. No-one can stop that. It's sad but it's the way it is. What we should be concerned about is trends. Are more children killing themselves now than before? is there any reliable data?



i think that do any useful analysis you have to detatch yourself a bit and not get too concerned with the details of an individual case. You have to step back, hard as it may be, and look at the big picture.

EDITED_BY: Mascot (1168341070)


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Problem is, that when alot of people look at the big picture they tend to see more things to blame, and it ends up going in circles, if that makes sense.

Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:No



Lets not try and look at this child's death with in the context of modern mass media, the declining role of the family, failure of social care services....e.t.c...e.t.c.



we could go on and on as you say finding more things to blame.



Lets look at this childs death in the big picture of what is important in the world.



Some 10.6 million children under five die every year (not counting deaths in childbirth). Around two-thirds of these deaths are preventable, including an estimated 1.4 million deaths from vaccine-preventable diseases. (U.N. figures)



The resources we would need to improve social care and to prevent a tiny number of children suicides are immense. What are we going to do? weekly councilling sessions? continual surveillance? compulsory medication? even if we could stop young children killing themselves the cure would be almost as bad as the disease.



What we should do is concentrate on the problems we can easily solve. We should focus our limited resources where they will have the most impact.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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Icarus
GOLD Member since Sep 2003

member
Location: , Australia

Total posts: 165
Posted:I understand your thinking Mascot and i agree to some extent. I see the solution as a different one and one i have spoken about before and wont start again.
I do think balance is important and i also think the media and public react so differently for two reasons - the "problems too big what can i do", and its close to home. The media could certainly help with both of these . For example more reports on the solutions (i can't remember the exact figure but i think that britain has recently promised more money for new war submarines then the excepted estimate to find a cure for AIDS) and putting africa back on the front page!.
Be nice if we could help with both the darfur people and the kids who are suiciding here (and don't forget when we help them we are also increasing the 'health" of society in the long run) wouldn't it?
I think we need to think long term. I am rambling and it's early. rolleyes going now.

xox


... simplify ...

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