Page: 123456...9
bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, i was just reading the rabbit hole thread, and was feeling very pleased that all my friends were in more or less the same place, having a great time, when suddenly i became despondent, and realised that they had not only flown there, but were flying all over the place to see a different lovely beach, etcetc.

now, my apologies to those involved in that particular thread, I'm only using it as an example because of its currency, not picking on you. i could point the finger at myself for flyng to, and within australia last year. or to hundreds of other examples.

how can we expect people to to be environmentally responsible if we are not? there is only so long that you can say 'well, i don't do it much, so it's ok'.

I feel like a killjoy, telling people what not to do, but can't reconcile my belief that if we don't change our ways we won't have a beautiful earth to continue visiting ubbcrying

for those who agree with me, feel free to join me in pledging to make no flights, or reduced flights at http://www.flightpledge.org.uk/
br>
i will be recommending alternative means of transport to anyone who is coming to uber, too biggrin

i would end my rant here, but i'm interested in HOP flying figures.... so please pander to my whim, and fill in this poll:


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete Topic

dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by: Sym

but I doubt there is an oil replacement that is good enough to use. Anyone else know?



The short answer is no.

according to the IPCC in 2001

 Written by: IPCC

there would not appear to be any practical alternatives to kerosene based fuels for the next several decades




Hydrogen has been touted as a potential alternative, but burning hydrogen produces 2.6 times as much water vapour as a kerosene fuelled plane. As water vapour from planes creates conetrails which trap in heat this merely replaces one greenhouse effect causing substance (CO2) with another (water vapour).

Hydrogen planes have also been touted as the new uber luxurious uber fast form of air travel - not long ago tests on an unmanned supersonic hydrogen powered drone which flies through the stratosphere - which they believe in the future could see commercial aircraft of this ilk travel from London to Sydney in two hours.

according to the Royal commission on environmental pollution

 Written by:

a hydrogen fuelled supersonic aircraft flying at stratospheric levels would be expected to have a radiative forcing (which means a climate changing effect) some 13 times larger than for a standard kerosene fuelled subsonic aircraft.



frown

someone mentioned airships earlier... these could be useful for crossing the atlantic - but are far slower than high speed trains, a trip from london to new york would take some 43 hours. And that's if the wind isn't against them - which has a far greater effect on airships than it does on planes. Additionally they are unsafe to take off and land in high winds (I write this on the day that my garden fence got blown down) so are far less reliable than aircraft.

Despite these drawbacks, George Monbiot has recently suggested

 Written by: Monbiot in Heat:how to stop the planet burning

If we really have to cross the Atlantic, and we are to prioritize the reduction of carbon emissions, airships, surprisingly, might be the best kind of transport



while I take issue with the comment about carbon emissions, for example stratospheric hydrogen aircraft produce none - thus instead, reducing climactic impact should be the name of the game - his general logic appears to be sound.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

Wintermute
Wintermute

Lost in the world but loving it :)
Location: Maybe Oxford, maybe Brighton ;...
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 119
Posted:Personally I think air travel should be cheaper, we are never going to evolve socially and develop any sense of cohesion across the planet as a species if we continue to isolate ourselves, and thats all making air travel more expensive will do. And as a species we will never be able to fix and use our planet productivly until we all work together, people have to take the long view and realise that the benefits of air travel outweigh the negatives for the moment.

Just my two pence.


If fishes were wishes we'd all cast nets

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:I agree that working together is a very good way to go forward, but, with the internet we don't have to actually go anywhere to do it.

I do not agree that the benefits outweigh the negatives at all.


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:Oh, and Dream, thanks a lot for that - I've been meaning to buy 'heat' for a while - is it worth it?

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Wintermute
Wintermute

Lost in the world but loving it :)
Location: Maybe Oxford, maybe Brighton ;...
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 119
Posted:Humans are tactile creatures, I don't believe that a couple of hundred years of very fast social evolution has counterected millions of years of biological evolution and won't for a long time.

I would much rather go and actually see someone, touch them, hear their voice and be with them than "see" them over the internet.

People seem to have embraced this technological marvel (and it is a marvel) a bit too quickly for my liking.


If fishes were wishes we'd all cast nets

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:Well flying is part of the 'technological marvel'!

If going places and meeting people is so important then isn't it worth paying the actual cost for it? Or spending time over it? As I said before in this thread: it's only in the last 50 years (100 top) that travel has been so easily accessible to every day people. If you are talking in evolutionary terms, then travelling hardly comes in to it - if anything, we've adapted to staying in one place with the use of farming.

We are, at some point, going to have to stop flying as much as we do now. Why not do it now in an attempt to stop damaging the environment?


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

TinyPixie
TinyPixie

enthusiast
Location: in the clouds...
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 394
Posted: Written by: Eera



Instead, why don't we all go onto one of those sites that tells you the CO2 load created by any particular flight, which then lets you donate the appropriate amount of money to schemes that clean it up through conservation, tree planting etc.

We get carbon neutral convenience. What's not to like?



Thing is, offsetting sometimes does more harm than good - Not to be a party pooper, but when offsetting carbon emissions through planting new trees whole ecosystems can be severely damaged, as the trees planed are often not the same species of tree that naturally grow in that area - The new trees are often fast growing soft wood trees.

Also, in a "natural" (whatever that means now) environment, many species of plant life coexist, however, in places where "offsetting" is practiced, often only one species of tree is planted.

These factors may change the soil (pH, nutrient ratios, etc), the plants, the insects, the animals - the whole ecosystem that existed in that area frown Of course there may be some offsetting organisations that are very careful with what they plant and where they plant it, but many are not.

It makes me sad, but that's the way things are frown My personal opinion is that there are no easy ways to slow down/ stop climate change, and selling one's guilt away by buying a few misplaced trees can do more harm than good frown


Delete

Wintermute
Wintermute

Lost in the world but loving it :)
Location: Maybe Oxford, maybe Brighton ;...
Member Since: 2nd Apr 2003
Total posts: 119
Posted:What Tinypixie said, clever lady indeed.

If fishes were wishes we'd all cast nets

Delete

faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:we should all just let our yards grow long

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

Delete

bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:indeed we should.

i found out today that though air travel is not good (2% of global carbon emissions), Deforestation is much worse: over 20% of carbon emissions globally.

here are a few things you can do to help:

don't buy kleenex, or andrex: 100% ancient forest wood goes into making these tissues
get your office to use recycled paper
make sure you recycle ALL your paper and card
pester the government to stick to its promises.

(links for all of these coming when i get home)


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:TinyPixie, well said, and you're right about off setting that *just* replants, however I maintain that if you have to fly or do some other high impact thing then you should give some money to fund scientific research in to the issues. Whatever you do, it is not a solution or a way of buying out of guilt.





 Written by: TinyPixie

My personal opinion is that there are no easy ways to slow down/ stop climate change







I agree, but there is a way even if it's not easy. I actually don't think it's as hard as it could be - once the idea the 'going green' is seen as 'the right thing to do' by most people then I think we will see a lot of change quickly. It all needs to be regulated though, otherwise the world will be full of scams like offsetting.



How many people have green energy by the way?



Take a look at http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/acrobat/JeremySmith_articleJune05.pdf
br>


And then: http://www.pledgebank.com/Electric
br>


edit: TinyPixie, I know you're right about planting trees, but do you know what the effects of NOT planting trees are to areas that have typically been forested? I would have though that cutting down the trees in the first place has done more damage than replanting would do, but is it better to replant or leave nothing there?


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

TinyPixie
TinyPixie

enthusiast
Location: in the clouds...
Member Since: 19th Apr 2006
Total posts: 394
Posted: Written by: Sym


I would have though that cutting down the trees in the first place has done more damage than replanting would do, but is it better to replant or leave nothing there?



Hmmm., ok, I guess that re-planting something is better than just leaving the forest bare - at least in as much as it reduces the carbon load.

However, if we just stopped cutting down trees (I know, never going to happen - completely impractical) and left the land to its own devices without planting anything at all ourselves, then the forests would, in time (very long time, but still), regenerate and reach an equilibrium, maybe with slightly different flora and fauna, but it would change at a rate at which animals and plants could adapt to the change in environment - ie, the whole ecosystem may evolve.


Badly done offsetting not only changes the environment - it does it too quickly . However, I do agree that we should do something, and if we are going to do something, might as well do it right - by supporting companies that have done their research into the ecology of the particular area they wish to re-plant in, and who will stick to using indigenous flora.

It's not all doom and gloom - i guess I just sometimes feel a little overwhelmed...


Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: TinyPixie


It's not all doom and gloom - i guess I just sometimes feel a little overwhelmed...



I think that's a really important point. It seems to me that there are 2 easy routes: 1 is to claim that we are not actually damaging the environment at all (or rather, climate change isn't happening - I know this is a silly view, but it is held by a lot of people) and the other is that we ahve already done too much damage and it's too late.

Both can lead to doing nothing at all about it.

The hard route is to keep positive about it and think that we CAN change something if we do it now before it really is too late...


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:I've had this bookmarked for a while: http://www.google.com/educators/globalwarming_results.html


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

.Morph.
.Morph.

addict
Location: Lancashire, UK
Member Since: 23rd Mar 2002
Total posts: 669
Posted:Here's some useful links:

www.ecotourism.org
www.tourismconcern.org.uk
www.tourismfortomorrow.com
www.sustainabletravelinternational.org
www.biohotels.info
www.greenhotels.com
www.slowfood.com
www.north-by-north-east.com
www.blacksheepinn.com
www.ecotravel.com
www.epicadventures.com

hug


Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:There's actually a third, not quite as easy but very popular nonetheless, and that's continuing to wreck havoc on the environment yet try to educate the general public on the error of their ways. Like going to the big protest before jetting off to sunnier climates, like somehow that's going to make a real difference.

The problem with offsets is..Today we're burning carbon that's been locked in the bowels of the earth for millions of years ( or 6000 if you're a creationist ) and any steps we take today, like planting trees, is bound to overwhelm the natural carbon cycle with all that "excess" carbon.

Outside of simply burning less fuel ( and really , who wants to do that ? ) the only way of "solving" today's global warming crisis is to replace our current electricity generation methods with clean, non polluting nuclear energy, and switch over to electric cars. It won't have much of an impact on the flying issue, but, overall, it will serve to reduce the amount of fossil fuels burnt.


Delete

bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:'clean, non polluting nuclear energy'

eek

in a very, very narrow sense of the word' non-polluting', yes.

in all other senses, eek


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Clean in the sense from a global warming perspective at least. But yes, there is all that nuclear waste to deal with however I don't see why abandoned mine shafts won't help us out here.

Let's face it, solar and wind power are warm fluffy technologies to aspire to however they aren't going to meet our growing energy demand.

I propose we shut down all this silly space exploration malarkey, (who really wants to go to Mars anyway ? Lakes of methane on Titan ? Big whoop. ) and devote those resources into developing a practical nuclear infrastructure.

A daunting proposal for sure, but not impossible


Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted: Written by: Stout


Let's face it, solar and wind power are warm fluffy technologies to aspire to however they aren't going to meet our growing energy demand.



We need to use LESS energy, not find ways to use more!


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:the best thread ive ever seen on hop
i just used youswicth.com to change my electrictiy supplier to a "green supplier" allthough i have no real idea how green they are,
i am also looking for a way of dontaing a regular sum of money to a charity that will help reduce carbon emissions but i'm not good at this stuff and dont trust a lot of what i find,any ideas?or if offsetting is no good should i donate to a charity who worksd hard to campaign for change?
could we stick a donation into the ticket cost of uber events payable by EVERYONE?this would have only a token effect i know but it might raise awareness and start the ball rolling with other international events such as juggling conventions

on lighter note
mcp told me she has great confidence in nuclear power as her dad worked in nuclear plants all her life and she had grown up around many different nuclear power stations..........that explains a lot meghan,i replied wink


Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:one more thing doesnt biodesiel still produce carbon?

Delete

Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:tim, did you read: http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/acrobat/JeremySmith_articleJune05.pdf


?

I like the idea of promoting climate change issues in festivals. I would have liked to have done more with play last year as well, it was a great venue to to a 'green' festival.

It's a big problem for me: for example the only way I can go to play and the EJC is to fly. Going to a festival is no where near a good enough reason to fly for me, so it's 1 or the other...


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

Delete

Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Using less energy is the ideal, I agree, but given that very very few people are actually interested in using less in the way of fossil fuels , just look at the justifications for flying/wanting to fly on this thread ( and what amounts to nothing more than a lifestyle choice, really ) I don't see us making any progress with that ideal.

If we factor in the projected increase in coal fired electricity generation plants in China, India and the US, and add in the projected increase in personal automobiles in China alone, then using less, from a global perspective, ain't gonna happen.

Practically , we need to find ways to generate cleaner power.

tim marston,,maybe think about saving up those donations and buying yourself a really nice bicycle. Awareness isn't really an issue anymore seeing as how the media carries stories on global warming, daily. Acting on that awareness is what really needs to be addressed.


Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:sym,
cheers dude very interesting,i am fortunatly signed up with ecotricity so i geuss its a tiny step in the right direction,i will try and convince my family and friends to do the same,perhaps we all should?

as for raising awarenss through festivals lets see what rob thinks and take it from there.(feurkunst next)


Delete

bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:well, i'm really up for using festivals to promote environmental awareness

the new uberevents website will encourage people to use clener transport options, like trains, or at worst liftshares so that noone travels there on their own in a car... and we'll be directing those who are flying (from the US, Oz) to offset schemes that focus on renewables technology, rather than just planting trees. I'd like to ask andy house to re-do his 'reconciling spinning fire with being eco' workshop, maybe, and there are a few other things we could do....

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:like an attendance donation?
EDITED_BY: tim_marston (1169235110)


Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:i thought about coming to france with a few people in a van,but is the train better??

Delete

georgemc
georgemc

Sitting down facing forward . . .
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 16th Oct 2006
Total posts: 2387
Posted:I've been lurking on this thread for a while as it's something that we at HoP have been thinking on and working on for a while. It's good to see the awareness and concern out there, so I hope there is good support for what we do.

We are well aware that NZ is a long way away from everywhere and air transport is a necessary evil for us so until we can get those wormholes that some people think we have for our delivery system working ubblol, we're taking steps to offset the shipping impact (as just one example). I also heard Richard Branston on the news when he was in Christchurch a few days ago saying that Virgin was investing (I think he said this amount) $6Billion in alternative jet fuel as he has become a convert to the cause as it were and feels his responsibilities. I guess regardless of the whether I got the amount right or not, the thought and some action is there.

FYI, in NZ, the government took ownership of all the (pine) forests carbon credits so any "private" carbon-sink forests have to be native/regeneration style. www.landcareresearch.co.nz/research/greenhouse/index_1024x768.asp
Also the majority of our electricity is hydro generated (which caused major eco changes when forming the lakes but is overall considered "clean") and wind schemes are growing also.

We also have some thoughts about what we do can help the likes of Play, so more on this later. . .

George


Written by: Doc Lightning talking about Marmite in Kichi's Intro thread

I have several large jars of the stuff. I actually like it... a little. And don't tell anyone I admitted to it.
grin

Delete

bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:so, tim, with figures taken from the tables above, a full van and a train aren't so different. 150ish miles per gallon per passenger for the van, 180ish for the train. so take your pick, really. but NOONE should come by themselves, in a car. frown but it will happen. however, i'll be trying to discourage it.

thanks george: when you get the thoughts together on how to help festivals, please let me know directly. thanks muchly hug



I watched An Inconvenient Truth yesterday.

that man should be president ubbcrying


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

Delete

tim_marston
addict

Member Since: 16th May 2006
Total posts: 614
Posted:NICE 1

Delete

Page: 123456...9