GeoffonTour04
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Posted:key: *= A circle with both hands

L= a circle left hand

R= a circle right hand

-= a musical beat.



Ok I just want to make a list of the main timing variations used in poi spinning, and leave it as a reference (time is the basis of everything, so this is the first prerequesite of poi notation)



Edit - As durbs pointed out, there are two types time, music relative or poi relative. This is an important distinction but shouldn't pose too much hindrance because we already have a name for poi relative 'half time' (split time) and quarter/eighth time don't really crop up in musical terms.



I'm going to write down each one relative to a bar of 4/4, split into semiquavers (16th notes).

All this means is the bar is 4 beats long, is split into quarters (4/4), and then I divide it by 4 again to get the 16ths.

This is because current poi notation is only relative to each other, which is clearly no good for notation. This system will hopefully allow if not greater, then at least more conscious control of timing variations during performances to music.



Most music has what is known as a 'primary pulse', which is the tempo that most people will automatically nod their head to. This is the easiest to pick up on and will usually be 4/4 (if you're having trouble picking it out, listen for the kick & snare drums, they are usually on beats 1 & 3 respectively ie:

Code:

kick pause snare pause

1 2 3 4

or

kick snare kick snare

1 2 3 4



Other timings (such as 3/4 or even better compound such as 6/8 or 12/8) can be useful later on but I won't go into them here.





Starting with the simplest:



Same time - Both poi complete a circle at the same time, irrespective of where they are.

Example - same time butterfly

Code:

* * * *

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



If the music will allow, you can also half time/double time same time moves which will change the visual effect tremendously.

Code:

halftime:

* *

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



doubletime:

* * * * * * * *

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



Simultaneous time:

Same as same time but poi are in the same place aswell. I'm not really sure about this one but I think it may be useful (simultaneous and sametime figure 8 crossovers are completely different for example).



Split time (standard):

Poi complete circles on precisely alternating beats

Example: split time figure 8

Code:

L R L R

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



Split time is usually done in double time, because if you take a same time move (ie same time figure8 crossovers), and put it in split time without slowing down the poi rotation, it will effectively double the number of beats you're making per bar.

Code:

Double time:

L R L R L R L R

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



Quarter/ Eighth/ Sixteenth time (poi relative).

If you take split time (180 degrees between poi) and offset it so they are separated by 90, 45 or 22 degrees (roughly), this is 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 time respectively. This is relative to the leading hand.

Code:

quarter time:

LR LR LR LR

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



or



L RL RL RL R

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



eighth time:

LR LR LR LR

|-------|-------|-------|-------

1 2 3 4



and so on.



Even though I have increased the number of spaces between beats, this is just to allow a smaller timing division, and does not affect bar length (the 1,2,3,4 are in the same place)





Uneven groupings:

Unfortunately with poi, we are often confronted with moves with 3 or 5 beats in, which can be fit into the music in two ways. One is to overlap bars, ie

(5 bt weave)

Code:

L R L R L

|---|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4 (1)



- which can be very rhythmically effective if done properly, and if you then add a 3 bt on the end it will finish the new bar (8 total beats).



The other, perhaps more difficult method is to fit the move into an 'uneven grouping'. This just means shortening each poi beat a very small amount to make it fit into the 4 total without overlap. I can't really write that down in the same fashion as the others but here's how it would be notated:

Code:

[ 5:4 split]

|---|---|---|---

1 2 3 4



It can be really useful to know the difference between these two types of fitting in uneven groups, because you might want to slap a particularly fast 5bt weave over say, a snare roll, or you may just want to use it as a transition without interrupting the double time feel of that section. Practicing different timings of the same moves greatly increases versatility for the same repertoire of moves, and can make performances much more interesting visually.



More to follow if anyone finds this interesting smile

EDITED_BY: GeoffonTour04 (1164629317)


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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:Cool stuff (Says me Mr. Techy Muso wink )



For "Swing Time" this is often called Quarter time - the poi should make a 90 degree angle - The difference between whether you're "closer to same time or simultaneous time" depends on which poi is "leading" the move.

In musical terms, the "standard" swing time can be expressed as the first and last triplet of a 8th note triplet grouping, The other shifted option is felt as the first and middle triplets of the same grouping.

Hypothetically you can spin this on the middle and last triplet but you wouldn't notice this unless you were bang on (or rather off...) the beat.



As for fitting 3 or 5bt moves into 4/4 - The 3's can be assumed to be triplets - quarter note triplets meaning you just change sides evey 2 beats.

For 5's you're playing eighth -note quintuplets over 2 beats.

Obivously you can stretch or compress these patterns - for example the 3bt weave could be spun as 3x 16th-note, 3x 8th-note, 3 quarter-note triplets - basically compressing the 3 (or 5 for that matter) into an even number.

Or yes, the other approach is to play over the bar lines, putting a 6/8 pattern into a 4/4 bar so it sync's up every 2 bars.



Then it gets fun with poly-rhythm biggrin


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:[side note]

Actually, really technically, quarter time is spinning 2 16ths not 2 of a triplet, but it feels alot like swing-time and I don't think people are going to bother learning the 30-degree difference in angle this produces... ubblol


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Durbs
Durbs

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Posted:"simultaneous and sametime figure 8 crossovers are completely different for example" - true but you're grouping 2 2-beat moves together.

The notation you're using doesn't take into account the position of the poi - Rhythmically the 2 moves are identical, visually they aren't.

But this is just a limitation of the notation... For example a fig-8 is just going to be RR which could equally just be 2 beats on the RH side.



For example a 3-bt weave would still be written

-3- -3- -3- -3-

rlr lrl rlr lrl

Which is the same as just spinning split-time at your sides or a split-time butterfly - just with a triplet feel.



The same as site-swap in juggling - there the notation is just about the rhythm - how you throw and where you catch are completely irrelevant to the numbers smile


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GeoffonTour04
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Posted:hmm

Bang on about regular swing time, it's usually written as an 8th note triplet with the first note a crotchet (1/4) note

I suppose that could be done with poi but as its generally only used when the song is in swing time I thought I'd temporarily borrow the term.

Upon rereading I did notice that I'd not mentioned leading hands (and bizarrely led with the left in most examples) but I thought I'd leave that til the next update.


Quarter time is much more similar to what I was describing (and is what I've notated in the example above) but I usually only have the poi at about a 15 degree angle, haven't been playing with it very long.

Quarter time as a name I'm not really happy with, because there are too many 'blah time' terms (half & double, same time, split etc) which mean completely different things, so if someone can think of a better name for quarter (and 8th) time as durbs describes it I'll update the main post.

Terms so far
Poi relative:
Same time
-Simultaneous time
Split time
-(quarter & eighth time)

Pulse/tempo relative:
Half time
Double time
Swing time

This is going to get really interesting when we have the terminology to start talking about polyrhythm, compound time and overlapping time signatures concisely hehe


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Durbs
Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
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Posted:Ahhhh, but then you're going to have to start re-naming long-established poi terms biggrin



Quarter-time is poi terms is spinning with the poi at 90-degrees (or meeting at 45 and 225 degrees in a butterfly)

It then goes wierd if you talk about half-time music where you're playing at half the speed, yet using the poi terminolgy you're spinning twice as fast as traditionally "half time" spinning is split time ubblol (So named I believe as it was to do with the poi relation to each other in a circle - i.e. a quarter of a beat behind, or a half a beat behind)



 Written by:

Bang on about regular swing time, it's usually written as an 8th note triplet with the first note a crotchet (1/4) note



Wellll, not for a quarter-note triplet it isn't (i.e. a triplet that lasts one beat of 4/4)

It could either be written as 2 8th notes if the whole thing is notated as "swing time" ,2 8th-note triplets missing the middle one or.

I don't think it can be written with the first note as a crotchet/quater note as this makes the note value too long. Maybe with a dotted 8th and a 16th some times though...

Anyway, that's neither here nor there smile



"This is going to get really interesting when we have the terminology to start talking about polyrhythm, compound time and overlapping time signatures concisely "

Are you suggesting we haven't been already? wink



The only really tricky issue is noting using text not pictures as it makes it hard to illustrate the notes accurately.



For example trying to illustrate with text a poly-rhythm 4:3 wiggle with hand-switches (3:4) is fairly tricky:

4~R-R-RRRR

4~LLLLL-L-L

umm wink


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GeoffonTour04
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Posted:A triplet lasting one quarter note will be 3 8th notes connected. For swing, '2 8th note triplets missing the middle one' is the same as a triplet containing a crotchet & a quaver, because the middle note of the triplet is a rest.



the whole half time = split time is why we need new terms for quarter & 8th time etc, as that could get confusing (and although we'd be abandoning long used poi terms, it's still relatively young and will save confusion later on).



I'm not suggesting we use the whole LRLR thing for notation this was intended as an introduction into the world of timing for people who haven't encountered it in the musical sense. Eventually we'll have to notate plane, direction (arms and poi), and speed for both poi, but unless we have a set of terms to discuss movement relative to a beat it will be difficult to even begin.

EDITED_BY: GeoffonTour04 (1164627540)


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Durbs
Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
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Posted:Ain't that the truth ubblol



Yep - you're right about the triplet (although it does still have to be bridged with a "3" in x/4 time) my bad smile



Depending on how deep you want to go - I don't think it'll be necessary to develop the notation of plane and direction as these will be self evident from the name of the move. Example 4:3 corkscrew you know it'll be in floor plane with poi going in the same direction smile



The speed will be defined by tempo and rhythm so that's not needed either



As it is...I wouldn't worry about re-wording old terms.

If people want to spin a 7:4 flower with arms doing 4:2 (you have to turn at the vertical) and the poi at quarter-time - there's not much scope for mis-understanding wink

Seriously though, I don't think there's scope for mis-understanding a move with the poi in quarter time being spun double-time.

The double-, half- etc time only really relfects the way is being spun to a beat (presumably accompanying music) where as the poi-relative terms describe the move by itself.


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GeoffonTour04
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Posted:Good point

-Main post will be edited


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Durbs
Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
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Posted:Just a thought...
If we take 4 16ths to be "1e&a"
Could/should the 3-bt weave be expressed as 1e&_ (i.e. 2 16ths and an 8th) allowing an extra 16th rest for the pattern to cross sides?
Or is a "perfect" 3bt weave straight triplets?
Using cross-point theory, should the poi be hitting the cross point in regular rhythm (i.e 3bt = triplets) or with a slight pause (1e&_)?


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CaffeinatedKatie
CaffeinatedKatie

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Location: Portland, OR
Member Since: 29th Jan 2005
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Posted:I'd hazard a vote for triplet timing. I don't know why you'd want or need to include a pause in 3bt.

And I don't count my rhythm from the cross point for 3bt because the third beat doesn't go through the cross point. I count them from the bottom point and that keeps them pretty uniform.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:What's the point since nobody actually spins on the beat anyway.

ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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[Nx?]
[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Member Since: 5th Nov 2001
Total posts: 3749
Posted:wow, when did i stop being a geek?

how did that happen....

T biggrin wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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GeoffonTour04
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Location: Oxford
Member Since: 30th Nov 2005
Total posts: 360
Posted: Written by: NYC


What's the point since nobody actually spins on the beat anyway.

ubbangel



To get more people to spin on the beat? This is probably the main thing I practice.


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