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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:science nerd like me? sacred geometry new age buff? check this out. (12 strand artificial dna, NON ratcheted dodecahedron, just around the corner. 5th element type stuff)nerd stuff



<small>[ 11. April 2003, 22:44: Message edited by: arashi ]</small>

EDITED_BY: arashi (1093222117)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:hey i8beefy2... where did you get that idea about gravity being the axis of tetraspace, anyway? been mulling it over... that sure does sound like a great concept! this is a guess, but it seems to me that the more i think about it... didn't einstein call time space fabric a plane, and heavier objects dent the plane? so mathematically it's easiest to represent 3D with 2D...so, then maybe since gravity _works_ in three dimensions, mathematically the 4th would interact in three planes! but does that mean the more full of fire or chi or entropy or life or whatever you wanna call this spirit process music, the larger the object in 3d? sure ties a lot of the "gods" thing and astrology together even more for me... i'm going into my saturn return, very very soon...
and actually, i'm not sure that the unseen "light wave" IS a tetraspace occurence or not. i was using it as an example of how science evolves it's theories along with it's instruments. as far as transporters goes, seems like if you know a tetracoordinate, you would know EXACTLY where the 3D waveform was, and you could reproduce the "correct" person. along with all their karma. but reiki works, regardless of distance from a person. that's why i try to see the spirit world as tetraspace, or some N Dimension.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Gravity works in 4 dimensions - three spatial, one of time. The whole point of Einsteins's theory of General Relativity was that you had to treat the two the same and combine them to get a unified spacetime.

When you add another spatial dimension to General Relativity to get a 5D theory (Kaluza-Klein theory) it turns out that the additional dimensions gives rise to a force that obey's Maxwell's equations ie. the electromagnetic force! So you could say that EM radiation is a vibration in a fourth spatial dimension.

This result is one of the reasons why people started looking at higher-dimensional theories - the additional dimensions allow enough complexity to include the other forces of nature. Of course, it hasn't turned out to be quite that simple...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:again I'm not fully up to date speed on some of this stuff.. I took all my math/sci course early since they were easiest.. lol.. but I thought that Einsteins theory of relativity falls short of explaining anything.. I mean don't get me wrong; it's good text book stuff, but it relies on the theory that all energy in the universe has been discovered.. We just haven't put all the peices together.. Hence everything being relative.. This is why Einstien laughed at anyone that brought up quantum mechanics.. "God does not play chance" to quote him.. He also had problems with the probablistic framework that we now use in science... So pardon my ignorance, but since the leaders of the scientific world have now adopted these latter two theories, and since these latter to theories contradict a lot of what Mr. E. said, aren't we backtracking a bit to try an put things in perspective? I mean is you search for order, you will find order.. Take the movie 'Pi' for example.. Scientific law should be a guidline for us to use, not a book we must follow.. Think about the gravitons I mentioned (I hope I mentioned them or else I'll feel like an ass), and other quantum particles.. We use them because the helps us get more accurate results.. but just like with god, there is no proof that gravitons exist.. Everything cannot be relative, if there are no absolutes.. This is kinda hard to put in persepctive since relativity, one would think, implies circular, when it doesn't.. It implies a wave form, which is still linear.. I hate to bring up pi again (the number this time not the movie), but think about it.. the secrets of circle are locked within it.. We don't understand it.. The sequence is completly random. which means it contains every possible sequence.. every possibility.. Linear, no matter how you break it down ultimately results in a beginning and an end..
I can't really explain what I'm trying to say, so I'll just drop it.. I just think that it's kinda funny how we speculate the answer to a question with no answer.. it's like the purpose of life is to divide by zero lol.. There is no answer, and if you keep asking, you'll keep getting new answers... but it's so much fun, and I think that's why the process will never end..


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:do you guys understand what we mean by "axis"? check that tetraspace link from earlier.
we're not backtracking, far as i can see... and i don't think "god plays dice" either. karma, chaos, are way too organized to be random. i think the truth is inbetween, there is an order, but it can be changed, it is set by the mindframes in the "past" which is an illusion, so you could say in our minds. the current theories aren't the end all be all, they will change, actually have changed. they are simply the best we have so far. but i don't think it's wrong to try to prove things mathematically. Qabbalists do. we're talking about some pretty out there stuff, at least i am, so i like to TRY to ground it in math and science, else N Dim.won't ever be accessible through technology. actually- that's a scary thought, george bush with access to tetraspace! he would know exactly what i think of him!! i want to understand more about the mathematical properties of N dimensions, because they relate to how we understand it and how we can acess it. i am coming from the perspective of someone who has SEEN another dimension and has been trying to justify it mathematically for all the poor blind scientists... the phrase from spiral, EM radiation can be seen as a tetraspace vibration, REALLY drove it home, even tho i understood from the room temp superconductor stuff i wasn't sure if ALL radiation was tetraspace or not...
wow, you know, maybe i HAVE BEEN making sense here...
suddenly feels much smarter than he looks...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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timsimms
member
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 6th Apr 2003
Total posts: 33
Posted:After an hour and a half of reading four pages, I now have a headache, should go to bed but now will not sleep. I think everyone is just a figment of my imagination and I am a figment of someone elses and one day whatever is out there will realise this and we will all just blink out of existence. Leaving behind no planes or dimensions to contemplate about.

I am the guy running around with his hair on fire!!

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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Rev:
again I'm not fully up to date speed on some of this stuff.. I took all my math/sci course early since they were easiest.. lol.. but I thought that Einsteins theory of relativity falls short of explaining anything.. I mean don't get me wrong; it's good text book stuff, but it relies on the theory that all energy in the universe has been discovered.. We just haven't put all the peices together.. Hence everything being relative.. This is why Einstien laughed at anyone that brought up quantum mechanics.. "God does not play chance" to quote him.. He also had problems with the probablistic framework that we now use in science... So pardon my ignorance, but since the leaders of the scientific world have now adopted these latter two theories, and since these latter to theories contradict a lot of what Mr. E. said, aren't we backtracking a bit to try an put things in perspective?Current scientific understanding of the Universe is based upon two theories - Einstein's General Relativity and the Standard Model of quantum field theory. Each theory works outstandingly well in its own domain... it's just in the (very) few areas where they need to be combined (black holes, at the Planck scale and the Big Bang) that they fail. In much the same way as Newton's laws have been superceded so will they by a better theory.

It doesn't make them wrong though, just limited. And I don't see how GR relies on whether all the energy of the Universe has been discovered... it just says what happens to spacetime in the presence of energy, it doesn't dictate what energy there is.

quote:Everything cannot be relative, if there are no absolutes.. This is kinda hard to put in persepctive since relativity, one would think, implies circular, when it doesn't.. It implies a wave form, which is still linear..How does relativity imply a wave form?


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:Actually when Einstein discussed quatum mechanics in reference to relativity, he stated that there was no need to beleive in invisible particles smaller then the atom.. He said that everything ahd been discovered and we hadn't put the pieces together yet.. We just need to see everything relative to each other..
Now quantum particles are sub atomic particles.. they are the very things that einstein said does not exist.. and for all intents and purposes don't.. but because we conceive of them, and they work, we tend to accept it and move on..
I never said it needed to be thrown out, but I did say that we shouldn't ground to heavily upon it.. It's flawed.. So I said use it as a reference,,. a guidleine.. Everything is relative.. well we knew that.. In the respect that this is a constant ongoing process.. Energy is transferred everywhere all the time. The world, our bodies, our communication.. Every instant, life itself is nothing but this cylxing of energy to different forms.. that part works.. but that wasn't the whole theory.. that's what I mean about using it as a guideline instead of an absolute.. Thanks to quantum theory, we have a way to prove mathmatically, what is merely speculative.. hence the graviton argument.. it works scientifically, but it's existence is a provable as god.. so it's the perfect blend of science and philosophy..


About the wave form.. Relativity is a cycling over time.. which means it repeats, but not circular, because time is linear.. so it's a wave.. If you want to get technical we live in 3-d not 2-d so it's not so much a wave as it is a spiral.. I guess I see things different b/c I look at time as a creation of man.. I like to think of there only being one instant.. right now.. all of the enrgy in the cosmos is manifesting right now as this.. and although some forms of energy take more time to change then others.. Like the energy that fuels the sun vs the energy that fuels you.. If you were eastern, you'd understadn easier I guess.. I don't know how to explain it other then westerners think of time as a line.. easterners see it as a circle... In linear terms you go from -infinity to +infinity... It's from here to there.. circular is just there.. no beginning, no end.. things recycle, not repeat..

****. I'm starting to sound like Nietzsche right before he had his breakdown.. It all makes since.. I swear I'm not crazy... well maybe I am.. but hey at least it makes since to me


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"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA
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Posted:Alright, sorry for being away fro so many days, but I had to brush up on my quantum mechanics with a few layman books by Steven Hawking. Anywho, Einstein had a problem with his general theory of relativity. Namely, it failed under certain conditions, known as singularities, like black holes, the big bang, etc. While his theory worked good for explaining forces such as gravity on a large scale, as you shrunk down to atomic levels some of the theory fell apart, especially with singularities where you have infinite space/time with infinite density: an impossibility for general relativity. Now in understanding the big bang, think of it like a balloon, expanding out until the gravitational forces between the particles (which later formed planets, etc.) clumped together and began collapsing back in on itself. Like a black hole. In theory because we are traveling outward we would still be able to see the light from the big bang... which we can, only because we are moving so fast, the wavelength is increased, thus red-shifting it until you get whatever-radiation-is-below-red . Now this also goes back to the second law of thermodynamics, which says that chaos or disorder increase with time, which is true. It's why a glass falls of a table and breaks, but can't jump back up in one piece again. If disorder is constantly increasing, then the universe started as a relatively ordered sphere which popped into existence, expands, and then pulls back out of existence...

Now this kind of sounds like something manifesting in the third dimension from tetraspace doesn't it? Anyway, just a thought. This kinda should ring true to circular time theory too...

Einstein didn't argue against quantum physics. Relativity was a useful tool, but we found instaces where it didn't hold true all the time. It still works great for understanding the effects of things, but it doesn't really have any kind of explanation for WHY these forces exists, does it? But I have more reading to do here before I can say anything more... don't want to make myself look like an arse.

I just got my crowley books too... Looks like a good few months of reading to comprehend some of this stuff. Reiki: works through time and space right? Now if that was a direct link to tetraspace, this would make sense, as both of these would be infinitely curved back on themselves in tetraspace. Just another thought...

So to make a long story short, I have always thought that there was a link between the forces acting upon this universe (like gravity), the dual nature of light, fusion, etc. Like perhaps light exists in a dual nature because it is the border between our perceived world and tetraspace.

Ack, Im tired. Im throwing out ideas without thinking about them first. I will reexamine this all tomorrow. Gnight all.


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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Location: Ohio, USA
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Posted:DMT? Mmm no never had the experience. However, I tried some Salvia Divinorum the other day... Wasn't prepared for the "thinking you've stopped breathing" thing which is just an effect of time being slowed down to you... freaked me out, and the sound of the universe ripping asunder while diagonal crystal prisms expanded into infinity in my sight...

From what I have read this is kinda similar to the experience. At higher levels, I hear, it completely removes you from the body, sometimes sending the body into automatic alarming movements... It felt like being pulled backward out of this world...

More doors to open in this little mind...


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:from i8beefy2...
quote: If disorder is constantly increasing, then the universe started as a relatively ordered sphere which popped into existence, expands, and then pulls back out of existence...

Now this kind of sounds like something manifesting in the third dimension from tetraspace doesn't it? Anyway, just a thought. this one hit me like a rock. 2+2= (putting 2 and two together)... the hindus called the expansion, contraction, the universal breathing of i think Brahma or whoever the big kahuna diety is. way before the big bang.
man, if there's one thing i do grok, it's that things follow one simple rule... "as above, so below..."
the more we discover, the more we see that things are related, and that they simply spiral, and so a line (wave, spiral, whatever) through a spiral is what i mean by harmonics, things related in a fractallized sense. atomic orbits and planetary orbits and galactic orbits. organelles, cells, organs, bodies, mates, family, society, collective consciousness, planetary life force consciousness.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:WOOOOT!
page 5.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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spiralx
spiralx

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Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Rev:
About the wave form.. Relativity is a cycling over time..No it isn't. Or at least, it can be but it all depends on what parameters you put into it.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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spiralx
spiralx

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by i8beefy2:
In theory because we are traveling outward we would still be able to see the light from the big bang... which we can, only because we are moving so fast, the wavelength is increased, thus red-shifting it until you get whatever-radiation-is-below-red It's called the Cosmic Microwave Background... here's a picture of it from the COBE satellite:

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/images/cs_cmbr.gif
br>
It fills the Universe, keeping it at a lovely warm 3K above Absolute Zero

quote:Now this kind of sounds like something manifesting in the third dimension from tetraspace doesn't it? Anyway, just a thought. This kinda should ring true to circular time theory too...Actually one of the biggest problems with theories of a circular universe is that entropy always increases... so each cycle you end up with more entropy than before unless you can come up with some magical way to break the Second Law of Thermodynamics and get rid of all the entropy.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Rev:
Actually when Einstein discussed quatum mechanics in reference to relativity, he stated that there was no need to beleive in invisible particles smaller then the atom.. He said that everything ahd been discovered and we hadn't put the pieces together yet.. We just need to see everything relative to each other..
Now quantum particles are sub atomic particles.. they are the very things that einstein said does not exist.. and for all intents and purposes don't.. but because we conceive of them, and they work, we tend to accept it and move on..so electrons don't really exist? then how do tv's work again...? and neutrons? ever seen a nuclear power station?
pop science books have a lot to answer for here...

quote:Originally posted by i8beefy2:
Alright, sorry for being away fro so many days, but I had to brush up on my quantum mechanics with a few layman books by Steven Hawking. Anywho, Einstein had a problem with his general theory of relativity. Namely, it failed under certain conditions, known as singularities, like black holes, the big bang, etc. While his theory worked good for explaining forces such as gravity on a large scale, as you shrunk down to atomic levels some of the theory fell apart, especially with singularities where you have infinite space/time with infinite density: an impossibility for general relativity. Now in understanding the big bang, think of it like a balloon, expanding out until the gravitational forces between the particles (which later formed planets, etc.) clumped together and began collapsing back in on itself. Like a black hole. In theory because we are traveling outward we would still be able to see the light from the big bang... which we can, only because we are moving so fast, the wavelength is increased, thus red-shifting it until you get whatever-radiation-is-below-red sorry to be another hole picker but this is a quite bit off dude (he's a confusing fella that mr hawking).
the big bang singlarity only existed at the instant the universe began, not the first few seconds after in which gravity applied and the universe was expanding - that universe was governed by the same rules that hold today (although the conditions were slightly different - a *little* bit higher energy density than we're used to!).
the cbr, as spiral x mentioned, is the remenants of that all that radiation that was floating around in the early universe. the reason the universe has 'cooled down' (ie. the wavelength of background radiation has lowered) is directly due to its expansion. it is not redshift like we are used to seeing it applied. we usually take an object and measure the radition being emitted from it. if it is moving away from us we will see a stretching of the wave which increases the wavelength and the decreased frequency leads to a shift towards the red end of the spectrum.
the redshift in the cbr is due to the universe *expanding* ie. the wave is stretched because the space it occupies has actually increased. weird innit?


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:Isn't that the deffinition of red shift? Bceause we are moving outward, and I think this is where I made my mistake, and this light is moving outward faster than us it would be red-shifted into CBR.

I just got into ANOTHER book by Mr Hawking which basically recaps all the material in the other one I just read, only with pictures to demonstrate the concepts better. As a visual learner, maybe this will help me clear up some of my holes. Now entropy and the second law of thermodynamics holds true because we see time moving forward. But what about imaginary-time, time being our simple perception of change? I don't understand this concept that well, so I won't even attempt to apply it to this discussion, but just thought I'd bring up the term in hopes someone else could elaborate.

Oh and what about anti-matter and such, which if I'm not mistaken explains the concept of quarks or whatever those things someone else mentioned were? If anti-matter can blink matter out of existence, and black hole singularities emit these (Well, actually consumes the matter and ejects the anti-matter particle), how does that fit into our discussion of tetraspace? Perhaps anti-matter can provide the energy we are looking for in quantum leap?


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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:hey peeps.. I wish I would have saved the link I got off CNN less then a week ago in the science section... Basically scientists (NASA affiliates of course) were recording this one area of the sky looking for one star to die and another to birth from it(I forget how it was gonna work though) and ended up capturing the death of a star and the formation of a black hole instead... I think the star was destroyed when another one hit it or something.. Damn I wish I would have saved the article (but I kinda blew through it because it was cnn).. Anyway, the point is they recorded a whole shit ton (yeah that means a lot) of some kind of radiation, which helped to prove some of their theories, but the weren't going to discuss it much until they had fully interepreted all the data they recieved.. so I'll keep an eye out for the next article on it, and see if I can't find something on it elsewhere..

On a a more releveant note, I didn't believe that electrons were considered quantum particles, but I haven't read my shit in a while, so I'm going to shut up until I check some out next week..

the brahma notion, I understand completely.. That's why I look at our perceptions the way I do, as this interpretation of data.. because our conscious only interprets the info that our body needs it to.. We use our sight to see, then our brain organizes that in relation to the other senses, then our conscious relates it on a more analytical level, then our body (sub/conscious poartially) takes the what it feels is relevent and communicates it down (all the way to binary hehehe) to our cells, etc.. whose interactions with each other are much like communities and such in our world.. their perceptions may be smaller, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some wierd image of reality like we do through our interpretations.. which is why nanotech freaks me out a bit.. sometimes... because that means that they've perfected their universe (us) to the point where we use our power to be their god (by being able to create them) to give them the god power (ability to rearrange the atoms to form whatever they need) so that they can be god.. wow.. my brain hurts.. j/k. I should take an english class or 12..
I guess I think like that because cells are more evolved then we are.. They've been doing this a lot longer.. And they;ve evolved by taking in other cells (stuff like mitochondria and such) to do work for them.. so this network of cells, we think of as us is all their creation anyway.. And the cells have within them more knowledge then we do, especially since they retain access to all of our memories even though we don't..
The gap between our galaxies could be like the gap between atoms on an expontially larger scale..
"Mathematics is the language of nature" It's the one thing that transcends is all.. but math is only symbolic logic.. which is why it translates across so well.. so I guess symbolic logic is the language of nature.. hehehe.. There will be order damnit
well enough joking around for now.. I've got some serious stuff I need to do for a while..


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:just a fun quick diversion, from i8beefy2's time stuff. the brain is an organ which will by it's nature turn whatever stimulus it is getting into a workable model. for instance people with aphasias or other partial damage to the brain have no idea that they can't do things that they used to be able to do, cause their brain compensates and translates things into making sense. bat's in theory even tho using echolocation, turn the input into a 3D model of their surroundings, just like we do with our eyes. so really, time COULD be going backwartds RIGHT NOW, and we'd make sense of it. suppose the universe is collapsing as we speak?

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
Rev

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Posted:to comment on that.. If you want something even crazier.. hold up a picture that has a heart and a word 'heart'omeone who has the connection between their brain halves cut... Depending on which eye they have open, they will either see the picture or the word.. not both.. because the eyes are each linked to one half of the brain.. So really you see things all the time that is there and just block it out.. hence the saying, If you look for something (order), you will find it everywhere.. We only see the world this way because we want to.. because we've trained ourselves to.. That's what I've been trying to break people out of.. We communicate on so many levels that we don't understand and those help to create our world too.. We limited to what our conscious is allowed to have by our body... WE have to train ourselves to percieve, and consciously be aware of more.. I think quantum mechanics helps with that, since it helps wild as theorizing to make up for our lack of perceptions..

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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

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Posted:A collapsing universe would be contrary to current observations. Red-shift of waves proves that the universe is expanding. Thats what the CBR is, and what a couple of dudes got the Nobel prize for back in the 40's I believe. If the universe were collapsing, we would see the opposite effect. Oh, that brings up an interesting note... wouldn't a collapsing universe then begin changing the waves into a far more harmful type of radiation, or violet-shift effect? Hmmm...

Rev, your statement rings true. Science only creates models to try and predict future occurances. Any theory we have only remains valid until new data arises to disprove what was once taken as absolute fact. Unfortunatly, a lot of people think there is such a thing as absolute fact, even though that is just a mental process devised but our own minds trying to make rational conclusions from our observances. So I guess, you could say that because everything we do is simply a reaction (Human reaction time being something like 1/30 of a second at most) to the past, we have devised science as a way to predict the future and try and make our reactions seem more like the now, even though it is not. Perhaps this is why so many people are so wound up on tomorrow instead of today.

However, from the Buddhist standpoint, as I have been told by a good friend, studying more and more is not helping you any, but hindering your attempts at understanding. The more stuff you cram into your mind to make new theories, etc. does nothing but get in the way of the natural ability to perceive everything as it truly is. Silencing the mind then would simply be eliminating these things which our subconcious keeps putting up to try and make models, and focussing our whole, true perception on an object, thus perceiving it's true nature. It's like putting yourself in someone elses shoes to the extreme, extended to objects, events, time, etc. Thus the answers that science was devised to discover are all inherrantly within us, and we are only complicating the matter with our "models".

Just like language, another of our models. We use it to try and communicate, even though we could in theory communicate directly by manipulating our nature and allowing each other to fully perceive those things, ergo the complete dropping of ego. In the end, language is just a tool, a model to try and understand the mental processes of other people. To communicate. But is not the true meaning which we had, something which we can only clear by using more and more language, but we can never fully communicate the true nature of what we want to communicate.

Thus the reason so few wise men ever wrote a thing...


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Jaeden
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Location: Edmonton
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2001
Total posts: 220
Posted:I do hate language for that. And once I realized how poor language is at transmitting ideas conversations became increasingly teadious.

When you think, do you find that you have a running dialogue (do you think in words)? All the people I've asked do and I imagine that everyone does. Do you find that you know how your current sentance is going to end before you run over it mentally? Try skipping the dialogue. Run through the scene/idea without a single word. Or if you do have to think words, skip to the end of the sentances when you know them. It's bloody difficult.

The buddhists do seem to be right about that understanding thing. There seem to be 3 stops in the chain of thought. Normally we start with an idea. We then take this idea and put words to it. This slows us down some and also causes some confusion as to what the idea origionally was.
As you clear your mind and expand your conciousness you begin to pick up on the cause of your thoughts (reality perhaps?). Being aware of these thoughts grants a much better understanding of the situation, however it is also more dificult to communicate your understanding because now you have to translate that thought into an idea and then into words. You become aware of how much information is lost translating the event into an idea.


that's my language rant...


The world is not out to get you but if you fight it you will be eaten alive

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Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:That's why I like chaos theory.. It's randomness gives us a scientific reason (soothing that evolved ego of ours) and stops some of that 'I have to ahve the answer' trend.. If you knew anyhting about me, you'd know that my biggest rant involves a lot of what you said..

Language also fall into this ctagory, because like all other things, it's just a set of symbols... Have you ever tried to communicate a dream to someone and in the end give up because you just can't convey but a small fraction of the dream.. So much of our life is ineffable.. We can't consciously communicate it.. but our bodies can.. hence emotions, pheromones, and all that stuff.. In the end that's why language breaks down.. Our conscious has de-evolved into this purely rational logic function for the body... It's soo much more, but we have forgotten how to use it.. WE have forgotten our training... And most importantly we have forgotten how to dream.. We let the dreams ride us, instead of the other way around..

That's why I love music.. Going back to the harmonic discussion... Everything resonating at it's own particular frequency... well music is the TRUE commmunication.. or at least the truest one so far.. Think about good music.. not that pop crap.. Good music you feel.. You get an image in your head (which is why we like videos).. You get words.. You get it all.. You get tht ineffable experience.. Think about how we talk about 'life's soundtrack', because everyone has one.. It's like the music is a giant tuning fork that we create, that resonates a little bit in other people.. and it helps to understand why some people like some things over others.. See pop music lacks that.. it's preprogrammed good harmnics, and words.. but there's no feeling to it.. Which is why they need people with alot of Charisma to sell their records.. It lacks something unless it has a proper medium to give it umf...

Yeah.. a lot of my personal view on things revolves around music and more importantly the harmonics of ideas and what not..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Anyone read the article in this month's Scientific American about multiple universes?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000
br>
Their site might be down right now, but it's worth a read.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Yvon
member
Location: Whitehorse, Yukon
Member Since: 1st May 2003
Total posts: 6
Posted:(after reading the article)
...and the sum of all those multiverses, that is GOD, everything I see around me, plus me, plus the stuff that is "real", and more all of it is but a infinitesmally small peice of GOD. To truly know yourself is to know everything, and to truly get a glimpse of that - that is the ultimate goal of every religion and spiritual path with a heart. From one point of view, to not observe is to not collapse the waveform and thus to see a thing, any thing for what it really is. A mountain is not a mountain and a stream is not a stream. Thus all of the dualities and contradictions truly disappear. But our inertia carries us forward relentlessly.


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:dang i love this thread...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:I do too. Been reading a lot of Carlos Castaneda at the moment, and talking to a lot of "castanedians" or whatever you want to call them. Interesting stuff, and its got me looking for my hands in dreams now, hehe. The descriptions of the sorcerers world and the nature of our existence is a wild ride, but quite a compelling one...

As for Aleister Crowley, man o' man what did you people get me into?! Now theres a mind f*$@ing.

Ahhhhh, isn't philosophy refreshingly just full of awsomeness. 'S why its one of my majors now.


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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:
bump

The Cells
made me bump it, they want you to read this

plus it's easier to keep reading the links if i don't have to search first


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

falloutboy
falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 433
Posted:Ah, i finally managed to read this entire thread and have so far kept what little sanity i had beforehand.

Very interesting stuff. Self-replicating nano-bots sound both great and slightly scary at the same time - i never understood in chemistry why they labelled the alchemists as 'fools' thinking they could convert lead to gold or anything else. It's all fundamentally the same stuff right.. if you go small enough.

I also found it interesting, arashi, the flak you copped for expressing things poetically rather than scientifically. Hmm, seems to me that ultimately, if we could or ever can, we would communicate by pure thought alone - without the inherent limitations and restrictions that inevitably come with a verbal 'language'. Scientific language may allow more accurate communication as terms are more well defined, but really, whenever we hear any word we simply compare it to the database in our mind with what that word has previously meant in other situations, throw in 'context', and then make a judgment as to what it means now. Fairly cumbersome i think. So speaking poetically, i think, is the closest we could come to communicating by thought. It's expressing ideas directly, rather than by specific words, and therefore removes some element of misinterpretation - you can't misinterpret it because your interpretation is always the correct one, for you.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for a good read!


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:thanks fallout!
this is really just a bump, but i thought that was sweet of you ubbangel

this really is the greatest thread of all time!!! ANYWHERE!!!! what a bunch of eggheads we are!!

and miss stix, i really do plan on getting you some books to read someday...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Quote:
Very interesting stuff. Self-replicating nano-bots sound both great and slightly scary at the same time - i never understood in chemistry why they labelled the alchemists as 'fools' thinking they could convert lead to gold or anything else. It's all fundamentally the same stuff right.. if you go small enough.


Because changing lead to gold requires nuclear physics, chemistry is a step too large-scale to be able to do it smile We might be able to do it in a particle accelerator I guess...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:i8beefy2: Quote:
If disorder is constantly increasing, then the universe started as a relatively ordered sphere which popped into existence, expands, and then pulls back out of existence...

Now this kind of sounds like something manifesting in the third dimension from tetraspace doesn't it? Anyway, just a thought. This kinda should ring true to circular time theory too...
...

I just got my crowley books too... Looks like a good few months of reading to comprehend some of this stuff. Reiki: works through time and space right? Now if that was a direct link to tetraspace, this would make sense, as both of these would be infinitely curved back on themselves in tetraspace. Just another thought...

So to make a long story short, I have always thought that there was a link between the forces acting upon this universe (like gravity), the dual nature of light, fusion, etc. Like perhaps light exists in a dual nature because it is the border between our perceived world and tetraspace.




first of all, yes, light is dual because it is at the border of the two dimensions.. that's what we meant by "em radiation is a vibration in tetraspace" Anyways thinking about this "time/space circle stuff" made me realize, you know, the mormons are praying for all of our ancestors, right? trying to save our souls by going backwards through our lineage and giving our ancestors a "baptism" into light... i'm completely making up the phrasing here but you get the idea... well they may have something there, if we pray or do reiki or whatever kind of healing ceremony we subscribe to, if we do that, we heal the karmic/akashic record, which is really a great way to evolve, working on the purely "spirit" plane, instead of trying to work merely in the slow vibration "real world". seems more efficient, somehow.

rev, i still don't understand what you were saying earlier about how we digressing by trying to understand the mathematics behind tetraspace. i mean, we are speaking in "eastern" terms, about music and vibration, etc., how are we not basically saying the same thing?


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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