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Forums > Social Discussion > Pat Downs at Public Events

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:So a Tampa Tech High School teacher is suing the local NFL stadium stating that the new pat-down rules are a violation of his rights, his freedom.

And I agree.

Now, the NFL is stating that it is to protect the fans (and I love this) from terrorist attacks. Ummmm..excuse me? Since when have terrorist shown any interest in the NFL?
And if they did I would be very disappointed in them.

This policy was put into place recently, why not on Sept 12th? Why wait so many years? Why after there have been *no* terrorist attempts is it all of a sudden?
And it is not isolated to the NFL. I went to a concert and was patted down.

If they want to wave a wand over me. Fine.
Want me to empty my pockets and look through my purse...absolutely, please do.

But this public local event having security tighter than the local airport just because they want an excuse to grope me is assnign. And these are events that have not been dangerous before.

So much for innocent until proven guilty. I simply go to ones where I know I won't be treated like a criminal first...or where they give me a better reason than terrorist (like one club which does pat downs on certain nights because they do not want "gang" violence. Then again, I don't work those nights, but you get the idea. wink )

Thoughts?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Dom


I disagree with the Tampa teacher and Pele. I really don't se how this is a violation of human rights.

I love this phrase 'human rights'. Anyone care to think about what it actually means? Which actual human right is being violated by a quick body search at an event where you paid for a ticket and in so doing agreed to all the terms and conditons of entry the management of that private property wishes to set out?

I have a right of freedom of movement, but this does not mean I can walk anywhere I please. I have the right to privacy, but if I go to a venue where the management states that by purchasing a ticket I concede to be searched on entry then it is perfectly in thier right to deny entry if I refuse the conditions of entry.

The phrase 'human rights' is a real big catchphrase but a completely grey statement. There's international charters and national laws protecting listed human rights but the actual protection and implementation of laws clashes with so many others. I know a ethnic group of people hell bent on learning 'human rights' but they still agree that they should be told who to marry, that men are superior, that not having a vote for thier leaders is fine. But they love 'human rights' courses as it's such a keyword.

The terrorism line is probably just what they're telling you and just one of the reasons for the pat-down. At the moment people will list the terrorist threat as a reason for doing things as people are a lot less likely to argue with it. Most clubs and venues here are searching for weapons, glass bottles, drugs, etc... and it's not uncommon to see metal detectors at big and small venues. Which is all fair enough, the less weapons on a night out the better.

And if the searches are ineffectual then you should be happy you're not having your balls squeezed everytime you want to watch football!



Yay! Articulate logic from Dom! Let's all ignore it.

wink

And I do believe that added security is a deterrant for terrorism. If you look into many of the terrorist attacks that have been prevented (at least the ones that have been disclosed to the public) many of them were prevented by an increase in security and good policing.

If you look at how criminals are caught in general, it's usually something little and stupid that gets them caught. Something that any one of us would have easily thought of.

Again, there have been pretty severe lapses in security, human rights violations, and wastes of time and money under the guise of 'security'... this isn't really one of the worst cases I've heard of.

*shrug*


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Pele, I think the fact is that that is how society is nowadays.
Since I was 13 and started going to festivals I've been patted down and having my bag searched.

Ok, so you dont like the reason for it. Well what would your alternative solution be?
Just jump on the sueing bandwagon like everyone else?


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by: Pele


And I agree with Prom. A suicide bomber in line for a pat down won't be all "Ya know, I'm going to get caught so I think I will just turn around and leave." No. They will detonate that sucker in line, and if anyone has ever been to one of these events, the line is far more densely packed and crowded than the event is. Holding people up with searches makes it more likely and more dangerous imo.



You know, they might turn around and leave. But it's a moot point.

I was asked to "volunteer" to be searched for the first time today on the NYC subway. I had a little extra time on my hands so I politely refused (and I was on my way home from work with my white coat hanging over my shoulder and my stethoscope around my neck, so I don't think I really looked that suspicious). I just said "I appreciate that you're doing your job, but I don't think what you're doing is constitutional, Officer." I then walked down six blocks and got on the train there. Took an extra four minutes.

And there were no searches.

And likewise, if someone wants to blow up a football game, random searches won't stop it. Not even comprehensive searches.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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alien_oddity


alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees

Total posts: 7193
Posted:who is pat downs?? confused


i'm not too bothered about "random" searches, usually because i have nothing for them to find or i have something but they cant find it (glad i did a security course so i know where they don't search)

only thing that makes me panic is sniffer dogs, had some green on my once going into norwich by train and randomly there was a dog team at the station, somehow i avoided the dog and made it past the ticket collectors who where looking at EVERY ticket.


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted: Written by: Pele


*Like I said, if it were for drugs or weapons, then I agree with it. And I have on many occassions

*.....weak, half assed excuses I don't tolerate.
pat-down rules are a violation of his rights, his freedom. And I agree.

*I don't have a problem with the pat down. I have a problem with the reason I am given for it.

*The NFL is stating that it is to protect the fans (and I love this) from terrorist attacks. Ummmm..excuse me?





Well make your mind up then love. If it was checking for weapons you'd be happy but because it's said to be terrorists you're not confused You must be thinking of all those terrorist actions that don't involve weapons like the erm....or the errr.....I know the....nope nope, that's not it eiter. Got it, the terrorist sit down protests that killed 47 that one time rolleyes


 Written by: Pele

So much for innocent until proven guilty



No one has presumed guilt, why do you think this is the case? An overly active paranoia perhaps?
And surely prevention is better than cure?



I agree this action wouldn't stop a determinded terrorist, but it will hopefully deter quite a few. And not only foreign terrorists either, also those gun touting lunatics that seem to exist on every street corner in America and knife carying gang bangers who can cause trouble and strike terror into everyone at football (or other) games and mass attended events.

I don't like pat downs, I don't think they're needed at 99% of places but the problem is you just can't tell. And if you've conducted Risk assessment and indicated a potential problem but do nothing you're even more liable than you were already. And companies HAVE to protect themselves in this blame/claim world we live in.
I don't have pat downs or searches of any kind at PLAY Festival and hopefully never will. If I feel that they are needed I hope everyone will understand the benefit gained for the whole attandance for a minor inconvenience.

And as Dom said, it's a private event that you bought tickets for in which you agree to their entry conditions. Either read the conditions before you buy next time or just don't bother going. how this guy, or anyone else, thinks they can say it's against their human rights to be searched for entry to a private (tho open invitation) function a private locatino is beyond me.

I'd say the majority of people don't mind so do you really expect the NFL or individual stadiums to be relaxing these new procedures? If people are still going to these games every week and paying their dollars AND being patted down I'd say it was yet another case of a very loud minority trying to change things for the majority to get their own way.
Remember democracy? The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.


Ideally we'd be back in the 50's when none of this happenned and things like pat downs were virtually unheard of, but we're not so live with it or cure the problem at the root cause shrug


Finally and slightly off topic. This is the last thing I'd expect to read from a moderator on this forum: (or has that hat convenienty come off again?)

 Written by: pele

I really think they'd have better targets than a bunch of dual-tone painted rednecks screaming over their sloshing beers.
It's kind of like alien abduction targets. I highly doubt the aliens would kidnapped the great unwashed as they have been accused.



May I remind you of the site rules:

 Written by: Malcolm


If you are a member, moderator or administrator you all would have accepted the following terms when registering:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Dunc



 Written by: Malcolm


If you are a member, moderator or administrator you all would have accepted the following terms when registering:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful *UNLESS DESCRIBING AMERICANS





You must have missed the fine print Mr. Pot Calling The Kettle Black.

wink


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Well I've just disproved your accusation of Ameribashing my AC thread that you're no doubtedly thinking of, so quote me where I went against the rules please Mr EnWhySee and I will duly appologise smile

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well the first one I saw was the last thing you wrote:

 Written by: Dunc


The American way isn't only carried out in America you know, it's like a nasty desease spreading throughout the entire globe quite successfully.



I'll run off and look for more if you like.


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:confused



I thought you were proving me to be an Ameribasher? It is like a desease and it is spreading like wildfire and has been for decades.



Maybe I should have said "Western Dream" instead of "American Dream" but as leaders of the western world and greatest propogators of it I feel I haven't attacked the nation in itself and made quite clear at the beginning of the post that I wasn't too.

So a little over sensitivity doesn't mean I've broken any rules and nor am I a pot calling a kettle by any colour.


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United...

Total posts: 667
Posted: Written by: UmbiliciformCraterOnFace


 Written by: Mme. Dani le Babyboo

so if that can be a target then im sure a football stadium can.



Surely a football match would have more security than simply a concert or a club night?

At clubs, there are about 15 bouncers max.
At football matches/ sports events, there are (I estimate) about 100 security guards/ stewards.

 Written by: Mme. Dani le Babyboo

a bomb can also be any shape or size and so can be anywhere on the body hence why a pat down is necessary.



Do you remember Richard Reid? umm

ubblol @ Meg biggrin



le babyboo?

lol

anyway depends how big the venue is, what type of event it is and what the crowds will be like but at club events and concerts at huge places such as arenas u will probably find about 100 or more security. at tidy weekenders i go to they dont have a huge capacity but the security teams have to monitor from 2pm friday afternoon till 12pm monday afternoon and there is a lot of them also patroling the site and arenas.

there will be enough crowd control needed for the amounts of people attending the events

football stadiums hold i lot of people and need enough security to with hold that capacity

same as any club event you may think its just the doormen but there will be loads inside and security to protect the djs/ at concerts the artisits.

and i wasnt talking your silly little town nightclub
ministry of sound is a huge club in london with a huge capacity and was a target because it would be full of innocent young people that would be very disturbing on the nation and thank god they didnt get that far.

also festivals are the same global gathering has a 300 strong security team


my ex is a security guy he met a few of the hoppers at clapham, he did the global gathering festival and tidy weekenders and so it isnt jus 15 security top thats a standard night club


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