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ickleMatt
ickleMatt

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Posted:What will be the affect of the increased availablity of digital media on the performance arts?

(This would be a much better discussion if I had the time to research for some facts to back my argument up, but as I am in an internet cafe in India I don't have to time for that. But if you find any relevent data please supply)

With more and more people able to create or copy and distribute digital media such as music and video, will this have a negative impact on the arts world that is dependent on live peroformance to create revenue, maintain an audience and develop new performers?

It is my contention that rather than having a negative impact, this new technology will lead to a renaissance in performance arts. Within this increased interested the more traditional forms will only see modest gains but more 'modern' performance arts will be at the forefront of interest. This positive impact will happen through two dynamics:

The first dynamic of increased awareness is driven by the availablity of individually published digital video to the general populous. Cheaper video cameras and the increased popularity of video websites, such as Utube, are the driving forces behind this change. More and more people are now becoming exposed to videos of performance arts that were on the cultural fringes. Increased interest will be especially of art forms which are either perceived to be new - such as 'spinning', or recent technology has changed the form of the art dramatically (juggling is a fine example of this - new plastic materials and Aerotech equipment).

The second dynamic comes out of flood of videos that are only starting to become available. When you can see 'anything' on video with the click of a button, the viewing itself becomes devalued. This devaluing of the recorded experience increases the value of witnessing a live performance. This phenomenon has already been experienced in the music industry where widespread copying and downloading has come with increased numbers of people at live music events. In this digital recorded world we are starting to rediscover the value of the live performance.

Performace arts that are willing and able to embrace these changes are in a great position to develop into the mainstream. This is not a call to those involved to sit back and wait for the adulation, but rather that there needs to be an increase in innovation and professionalism to benefit on these changes.


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simian
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Posted:ooh, good post and poll smile



i really like your point about de-valuing of recorded media leading to increased appreciation of live performance. i hadn't thought about it that way, but you're blatantly right.



i'd also point out that once a performance skill can be seen on video by an extremely large audience, then that skill will become far more common. See: various recent-ish styles of object manipulation such as airwraps, matrices, legos etc...



i reckon that all this digital media stuff means that skills and styles spread far more quickly, which is nice. But that means that manipulation in general starts too look a lot more samey and homogenous, which isn't so nice...



ps. i hope you're having a very lovely time in India, matt smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
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Posted:I like the word renaissance, and I hope you're right. Thou it's taken a while for that to happen to music, so it might be a few more years yet...

 Written by: simian


i reckon that all this digital media stuff means that skills and styles spread far more quickly, which is nice. But that means that manipulation in general starts too look a lot more samey and homogenous, which isn't so nice...




Indeed. For an 'art' / hobby with no rules, lots of people spin the same way huh? I mean the very word spin seems to lock you into doing a certain type of movement with your toys...


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dream
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Posted: Written by: ickleMatt


What will be the affect of the increased availablity of digital media on the performance arts?

When you can see 'anything' on video with the click of a button, the viewing itself becomes devalued. This devaluing of the recorded experience increases the value of witnessing a live performance. This phenomenon has already been experienced in the music industry where widespread copying and downloading has come with increased numbers of people at live music events. In this digital recorded world we are starting to rediscover the value of the live performance.





the first thing is that despite the availability of free downloads the music industry is selling more albums as well as gig tickets than ever before.

the second is that media - digital or not has by and large come to replace much of the role that performance played in western culture 100 years ago.

the third is that to compensate for its loss of status live perfomance increasingly resembles and relies upon digital technology. When i saw Tool a couple of weeks back not only was the entire acoustics performance mediated through amps, a huge array of effect pedals, and a sound desk where someone ofstage controls the mix the audience hear, but also four giant projection screens. This interjection of the digital into live performances, as performance takes onboard aspects of our primary cultural form (that of media) is the subject of Phillip Auslander's book Liveness... Its infuriating at times but worth looking at. For other examples look at the work of artists such as Stelarc, the Dave Fish Theatre Company, Reza Abdoh and The RePublic of Digital Cabaret.

there's a lot of interesting work coming out around the point at which the digital and live connect with each other... There's a one day conference in London on Sept 11th on HCI live performance and club culture which I'm meant to be helping present a paper for...

 Written by:

Increased interest will be especially of art forms which are either perceived to be new - such as 'spinning', or recent technology has changed the form of the art dramatically



what you give is an approximation of what a lot of live art practitioners say about the importance of their work. However despite grandiose claims about shattering the simularca of our postmodern image world, interjecting the immediacy and physicality of a concrete material existence into everyday life and reigniting material struggles against Baudrillardian claims of the collapse of the real, Live Art is seen by the general public as a pretentious pile of crap. While it takes 'new' and 'experimental' forms these are rarely of any interest to people whose cultural tastes stretch as far as football, pop idol and big brother. Sad (I quite like some live art, and hate pop idol & big brother...) but true.

 Written by: Walter Benjamin


What withers in the mechanical age of reproduction is the aura of the work of art



what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

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NOn
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Posted:i'm a bit tired to think about this at the moment, but my first thought is, there are two equally possible outcomes. One is that the wide availability of digital media of all kinds can increase audience appreciation of a live performance as you said, but also to push the performers much further and produce even better live performances.

Also, kind of along the lines of what dream said about the digital technology becoming involved in live shows, well also artforms that would have traditionally have been primarily staged as live performance have lots of potential to be creative within digital media, where it wasn't previously considered as a possibility. Probably the most obvious example of this kind of movement towards digital media is installation art, where video is being used more and more, but also dance - i have seen some really interesting and unique dance videos being made recently, choreographies designed for video, not designed for stage but filmed....

The other possible outcome, is well the opposite, digital technology can do some pretty clever things to live performances that could potentially transform your bog standard pic 'n' mix girl/boy band, into a crowd wowing live legend.... i don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing as theoretically if you enjoy the performance you enjoy the performance, probably it already happens.

Back on the good side, i do know that Super Furry Animals had at one point some pretty interesting ideas for using digital technology to project 3D images around venues. I'm not sure if that has come to fruition yet, but I'd love to see that!


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ickleMatt
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Posted: Written by: dream


what you give is an approximation of what a lot of live art practitioners say about the importance of their work. However despite grandiose claims about shattering the simularca of our postmodern image world, interjecting the immediacy and physicality of a concrete material existence into everyday life and reigniting material struggles against Baudrillardian claims of the collapse of the real, Live Art is seen by the general public as a pretentious pile of crap. While it takes 'new' and 'experimental' forms these are rarely of any interest to people whose cultural tastes stretch as far as football, pop idol and big brother. Sad (I quite like some live art, and hate pop idol & big brother...) but true.




Jesus talk about looking down your nose at the smelly masses!

Football, pop idol and big brother are all forms of art. They have two common threads that ensure their popularity - one, competition everybody likes a nice bit of competitive spirit, and two, they are partially democratic - they involve the viewer.

New and experimental are only equated with pretensious only when the person describing it as such have something to gain from dismissing it.

"what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?"

The now - the moment of creation.


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dream
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Posted: Written by: icklematt

Jesus talk about looking down your nose at the smelly masses



firstly hippies smell far worse than the hugo boss wearing masses...

secondly i like football. which doesn't involve the viewer... I watch England lose on Saturady but my viewing had no impact on the game.

live art on the other hand - with its emphasis on embodiment and physicality is far more immediately involving for the audience than football or pop idol.

 Written by: icklematt

New and experimental are only equated with pretensious only when the person describing it as such have something to gain from dismissing it.




what do most people have to gain by describing live art as pretentious???

what specifically do i have to gain by describing certain types of art which i personally enjoy as pretentious???

people generally describe things that way when either they dont understand what the artist/author has created - or because they understand the concept but feel that it is sufficiently specialised to necessarily exclude the majority of the population from any sense of understanding the work.

This kind of elitism is a real problem with much of what passes today for new and experimental art... Its almost like a safeguard against it becoming too mainstream and hence uncool in the art world.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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zombiedale
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Posted:Hmmm... Interesting idea, the more available something is the better it becomes as it is forced to compete for attention with everything else.

Market forces make you a better poi spinner.

I don't really buy it. While it will have the bonus of raising the profile of previously unknown sports. It will do so at a level below the main stream. This as already happened with activities called extreme sports or alternative. The effect can be that while more people become aware of what we do. Which is cool they become aware of it as an alternative to a real sport or activity. Which degrades the perception of what we do.
(WE do it because we are compelled to the smell of paraffin the feeling of heat orbiting you. That wobbly moment when it might go wrong and you get burnt. Or you pull off a really cool trick and feel awesome.)

However the idea of it becoming alternative is simple it becomes a second class activity to the mainstream interests. And everyone knows it because they it is called an alternative sport/activity.

That is what i think.


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NOn
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Posted: Written by: newagebastard


Hmmm... Interesting idea, the more available something is the better it becomes as it is forced to compete for attention with everything else.

Market forces make you a better poi spinner.

I don't really buy it. While it will have the bonus of raising the profile of previously unknown sports. It will do so at a level below the main stream. This as already happened with activities called extreme sports or alternative. The effect can be that while more people become aware of what we do. Which is cool they become aware of it as an alternative to a real sport or activity. Which degrades the perception of what we do.
(WE do it because we are compelled to the smell of paraffin the feeling of heat orbiting you. That wobbly moment when it might go wrong and you get burnt. Or you pull off a really cool trick and feel awesome.)

However the idea of it becoming alternative is simple it becomes a second class activity to the mainstream interests. And everyone knows it because they it is called an alternative sport/activity.

That is what i think.



i don't know about it being always the alternative. Poi is accessible to people, all you need is a pair of socks and will to practise, in the same way that football is accessible. Other sports such as snowboarding and Scuba diving might be less accessible because of the need for certain conditions and equipment to be able to do it and yet, they are no longer really considered to be extreme sports or even alternatives when pretty much anyone can do a practise dive whilst on holiday in tenerife or learn to snowboard on a short break in the french alps. In contrast, BASE jumping for example involves specialised equipment, lots of skill and involves possible risk of death... to me, if i was to pick the more mainstream activity out of poi or BASE jumping i would go for poi, and believe that it could and is already in the process of taking off in a BIG way... Just because there will always be a significant quantity of people who decide they have enough of hitting themselves, there are also a lot of people *raises hand* who can't kick a ball in any intentional direction and thus gave up any interest in football years ago... yet it's still considered mainstream.... The only reason i can see that poi might stay alternative is because of it's current status as a circus art as opposed to sport... but my point is, apart from that, it could easily become a mainstream activity.

this post has absolutely no relevance to anything digital.... but hope it somehow has relevance to the idea of things going mainstream through mass digital reproduction... back on topic....

 Written by:

"what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?"

The now - the moment of creation.



uh... i'm not sure when this quote first popped up or who made it, but i was going to ask why the question isn't about the digital age of creation, although it occured to me that you used the word reproduction... since that word has another meaning which basically means the creation of new lifeforms, then in fact the answer should be that nothing withers at all, because it's about creating new things...

I include this link as a reference, as you will notice that they use the terms replication and duplication of the DVDs, which i feel represents more accurately the concept that the question is about... ubbrollsmile


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ickleMatt
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Posted: Written by: dream


secondly i like football. which doesn't involve the viewer... I watch England lose on Saturady but my viewing had no impact on the game.




If only we could... No viewer impact in football is rather longer term. Ousting managers, forcing purhcases of players, demanding directors to resign: these are the impacts that viewers can have.

 Written by: icklematt


New and experimental are only equated with pretensious only when the person describing it as such have something to gain from dismissing it.




 Written by: dream


what do most people have to gain by describing live art as pretentious???




Calling something pretentious means that you think it has less value than it claims to. Therefore claiming something as pretentious is a way of dismissing it without giving reason.

 Written by: dream


what specifically do i have to gain by describing certain types of art which i personally enjoy as pretentious???




Maybe you mean ostentatious?

 Written by:


"what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?"
The now - the moment of creation.




 Written by: NOn


uh... i'm not sure when this quote first popped up or who made it, but i was going to ask why the question isn't about the digital age of creation, although it occured to me that you used the word reproduction... since that word has another meaning which basically means the creation of new lifeforms, then in fact the answer should be that nothing withers at all, because it's about creating new things...




The quote was regarding the pervay of art. Art takes over where the digital media reproduction (ie the digital recording) can't. My answer suggests that when everything is being recording the only thing missing is the moment of creation (this moment of creation could be the creation of the video itself).

The moment of creation has value. The question is how can we use technology to enhance this value?


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simian
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Posted: Written by: matt (little)

Calling something pretentious means that you think it has less value than it claims to.



[pedant]

yeabut...

you can state correctly that something has less value than it claims to.

but still possesses great value.

eg. X is really good (but not as good as it thinks\says it is)

[/pedant]


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NOn
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Posted: Written by: ickleMatt



 Written by:



"what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?"

The now - the moment of creation.





The quote was regarding the pervay of art. Art takes over where the digital media reproduction (ie the digital recording) can't. My answer suggests that when everything is being recording the only thing missing is the moment of creation (this moment of creation could be the creation of the video itself).



The moment of creation has value. The question is how can we use technology to enhance this value?







ok, i understood the question to be directed at the ability to mass replicate DVDs and CDs, in which case i do think that the word replication/duplication/cloning if you like... is the better word to be put in the question.



In my mind a 'reproduction' still does involve an act of creation for example in the reproduction of an artwork or an antique, is there not some creative process there in the ability to imitate a piece?



By reproduction i gather you mean recording a live performance, but i think that videoing a performance is a creative process, yes you can be uninventive with it, but you can also be creative about how the recording is made, so isn't that the moment of creation?? It's possible the performer may be the passive participant in this kind of process, but that doesn't make the digital media any less creative. Of course there is heaps of potential for it to be a creative process for both parties...



However in replicating the video hundreds of time, then there is no new creative process, which is why i suggested the question might be better written in those terms for that answer to work... ?

EDITED_BY: NOn (1152733801)


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BansheeCat
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Posted:icklematt-- one can actually create with digital media, not simply document objectively . The recording of an event is inherently influenced by the recorder/veiwer and their persepective, and in many ways may also influence the nature of the performance while they are creating another layer to the expereince. An act of creation is included within the act of recording, and then layered with the act of creation of the act/art being recorded, and in so, tranformed, or tweeked in some way.

That is what artists do, filter the world through their perspective, and give us bits of it in forms altered to emphasis certain aspects of what interest them. The result is offered up for the viewers enlightenment, exploration , interaction ,amusement or entertainment. Lots of digital media does this. Even when someone thinks they are recording an event in a detached objective manner, often they still manage( accidentaly? inherently?) to capture and express something within the moment that transforms it into what i would call art.


Many people are using this aspect of inter-action deliberately, and doing some wonderful multifaceted experiential art. Then it certainly does not whither the moment of creation- it is one, or at least part of one.I enjoy some of this media because it is not static. There is so much potential for discovery and exploration,infinite variety as we participate in the process as viewer and creator- until those very definations are blurred.

**written fast, I apologize for lack of clarity, and hope you take a leap through my tangled words and get what I mean!


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dream
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Posted: Written by:

"what withers in the age of digital age of reproduction?"



non, my question was a reworking of the question Walter Benjamin asks in his seminal essay The Work of Art in the Mechanical Age of Reproduction.

His answer was the aura of the artwork - its uniqueness and unrepeatability, think Duchamp's ready mades and Warhols pop art. Art becomes democratised to an extent by mechanical reproduction as it becomes available to a greater cross section of society - Benjamin's essay is within the tradition of the European avant garde which saw to integrate art into everyday life as opposed to its conception as an autonomous realm... its a great essay people should go read it... he also talks about the close shot in cinema (the essay dates from 1937 so cinema was not the ubiqitous industry we know today) as acting like psychoanalysis of the body - drawing attention to subtle distinctions of gesture in a similar way to Fredian probing of language.

beaing in mind Matts comments on newness in art and popular culture

 Written by: Walter Benjamin

Mechanical reproduction of art changes the reaction of the masses toward art. The reactionary attitude toward a Picasso painting changes into the progressive reaction toward a Chaplin movie. The progressive reaction is characterized by the direct, intimate fusion of visual and emotional enjoyment with the orientation of the expert. Such fusion is of great social significance. The greater the decrease in the social significance of an art form, the sharper the distinction between criticism and enjoyment by the public. The conventional is uncritically enjoyed, and the truly new is criticized with aversion.



find what looks like the whole of the essay here

http://bid.berkeley.edu/bidclass/readings/benjamin.html
br>
some ideas towards answers that i might give towards what withers in the digial age of reproduction.... embodiment, mass, temporality, the incommensurable opposition between artist and audience and the notion of completion.

 Written by: Brian Eno interviewed by Kevin Kelly, in Wired 3.05, May 1995

In a blinding flash of inspiration, the other day I realized that "interactive" anything is the wrong word. Interactive makes you imagine people sitting with their hands on controls, some kind of gamelike thing. The right word is "unfinished." Think of cultural products, or art works, or the people who use them even, as being unfinished. Permanently unfinished. We come from a cultural heritage that says things have a "nature," and that this nature is fixed and describable. We find more and more that this idea is unsupportable - the "nature" of something is not by any means singular, and depends on where and when you find it, and what you want it for...Finishing implies interactive: your job is to complete something for that moment in time.





sorry for causing confusion.

wink


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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NOn
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Posted:so if i understand mr. walter benjamin (who incidentally i both agree and disagree with at various intervals) the definition of reproduction that is being discussed is mechanical reproduction of real life.... I definately wasn't understanding it in that way could be because i didn't read the thread properly (tchah, digital media eh?), could be that since i am currently working in a digital media company that my thinking just skipped a step, so it was quite good to read a 1937 perspective...

However, it's not 1937 and technology has developed quite a lot, photography is now widely exhibited as an artform, as is film, because it is being criticised and thought about and even studied in universities. And people have come to distinguish between what is a money making blockbuster and what is presented in such a way as to attempt to show something utterly new and to encourage contemplation.... One of the notes actually in the Walter Benjamin essay was quite interesting, no.13 from Aldous Huxley, not quoted here because it's a bit long and already linked, about a ratio of what he describes a multitude of trash being produced but still there is natural talent there... I think the thing to remember with digital media, is there are still people who have natural talent and now they are also able to apply it to digital media in a creative way... and produce work that has as much of an aura as a painting... and does encourage contemplation..... uh... i have the sense that i'm just resaying things that have already been said, or am just stating the bleeding obvious so moving on...

 Written by:

some ideas towards answers that i might give towards what withers in the digial age of reproduction.... embodiment, mass, temporality, the incommensurable opposition between artist and audience and the notion of completion.



sorry, i'm going to pick holes in words again, but hopefully in an expanding the argument kind of way. I agree to the extent of a comparison with live performance art, i.e. theatre, dance, opera, concerts. But to make a comparison with painting or sculpture, even architecture, i don't think there would be any difference in the withering or lack of, as we view all of these things out of context of their moment of creation. The painting is already painted when it is hung in the gallery, so apart from it's physical mass, isn't it pretty much the same situation as if we watch a DVD at home, it's no longer in it's original context, it's no longer in the process of creation, it's static, unchanging, any enjoyment, any aura we perceive from it is from our own minds, and so would be equally true viewing a film. All we see is an capture of a moment that someone else experienced when it has already passed. Architecture being as it is generally quite heavy and unmoving, is less able to be moved out of it's locational context, but temporally yes. A castle today is considered a piece of history, not a necessary shelter from the enemy, or a cathedral roof is aesthetic, not an engineering challenge to be completed.... even with architecture we can be far removed from the process of creation... The fact that we can perfectly replicate a piece of digital media, could be said to actually improve this situation, it is produced in order to be viewed in a variety of contexts, designed for portability, and we are not really any farther away from the creative process then we ever were with painting, sculpture or any non-live art...

Arguably the absolute closest we can get (besides performance art) to participating in an continuing creative process is a form of digital media and hellooo wave it's the interweb. Which like aldous huxley so perfickly described in 1934, does indeed contain an awful lot of trash, but some fine talent also smile

I know this has gone quite off the topic of matts' original post, which i do mostly agree with actually, but i'm inclined to fight the side of digital media lest it all gets consigned to the realm of inferior mass produced art... I do think that video viewing can be 'revalued' if it ever got devalued, and the creative potential that digital media combined with performance art could offer is huge and still waiting to be explored. I hope that it would have value in itself as well as adding more value to the live version for it being completely different.

maybe. smile


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BansheeCat
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Posted:Si, can you elaborate and or explain why "embodiment, mass, temporality, the incommensurable opposition between artist and audience and the notion of completion" might whither in the digital age?

I'm curious...Reading the essay you quote to see if I can figure it out, but still jet lagged so an explanation might help!


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ickleMatt
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Posted:In the previous posts there seems to be an assumed dicotomy between digital art and live art; this doesn't have to be the case.

I think that there is great potential to develop a form of digital creation which is performed live. VJs already do something like this, but I think there is plenty of scope to take this further. New forms of input such as motion sensors could allow the artist to not only create in the real world but simultanously in the digital world aswell.

Imagine you go to see a show and on the way out you are given a newly burnt DVD of the unique performance!


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