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Forums > Social Discussion > Carbon dioxide: they call it pollution; we call it life Ad in USA

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:US ads praise carbon dioxide By Deborah Zabarenko in Washington 18may06



A LITTLE girl blows away dandelion fluff as an announcer says, "Carbon dioxide: they call it pollution; we call it life", in an advertisement targeting global warming "alarmists", especially Al Gore.



Herald Sun Newspaper



Anyone know whats going on with this Competitive Enterprise Institute?????







confused


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Or "how I stopped thinking and learned to love the bomb"

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:That's crazy. No one would call carbon dioxide a pollutant. That would be like calling oxygen or nitrogen a pollutant. Such allarmist ads are silly. Carbon dioxide is a natural part of our atmosphere that makes the plants grow. I'm happy with a "pollutant" that is healthy for our vegetation.



You know what would really cause climate change? Mass windmills altering air currents, and solar energy being absorbed and converted into electricity.



Iran has the right idea, stop all this screwing around and just go nuclear. No wonder Bush and all the other anti-environment politicians are trying to screw them up.


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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted: Written by:

You know what would really cause climate change? Mass windmills altering air currents, and solar energy being absorbed and converted into electricity.



is this actually your view or are you being sarcastic?


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Patriarch: Again, if you're being sarcastic, then either use smileys or actually say so. Thinking back, I can't remember the last time you posted that wasn't sarcastic/mocking in tone. Do you *want* to start arguments or have people shout at you? Or are you actually stating your beliefs?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:i agree - this is the social discussion board and a 100% ironic post with no indication of the post's tone is not really conducive to a discussion.

carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas.

sharp changes of the amount making up the atmosphere will have an effect on climate.

the past few years have seen some sharp increases in the levels of co2 and this is a direct cause of global warming.

mis-information at that level sickens me - presenting highly questionable opinions about the 'benefits' of increasing the levels of co2 in the atmosphere as fact is unacceptable.

i realise that this is a pre-emtive reaction to the 'alarmist' glabal warming film about to be released and that the gore film is probably just as wide of the mark.

why can someone not just present the facts, with as little bias as possible rather than siding in one of two camps that preach opposite extremes of the issue?!


this kind of propoganda is part of why a large section of the american people are unfairly but increasingly thought of across the world as idiots and why the political process in america is such a joke frown


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I guess if there was no CO2 at all, the plants would be in some trouble, since they live off it and water. But since the green stuff - human balance has shifted heavily against the plants, the life argument doesn't really go.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:however cars do go, and there's a hell of a lot of em!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:There hasn't beem this much CO2 in the atmosphere in thousands of years... it's unprecedented and there's no shortage!



Had a look at their site and it looks like the competitive enterprise institute is a think tank that receives funding from companies who either produce CO2 or sell products that are part of the chain...



They are for market forces determining outcomes rather than government intervention which transaltes into let people do what they want for proftit.



Unfortunately the true cost are are externalised to the costs of these companies. The cost are paid by us and our children / grandchildren etc... ubbrollsmile



The above rollsmile is being sarcastic wink

EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1147966522)


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Dentrassi



 Written by:

You know what would really cause climate change? Mass windmills altering air currents, and solar energy being absorbed and converted into electricity.





is this actually your view or are you being sarcastic?





No, I actually think that those two things would have a tremendous affect on the environment.



"Fossil fuels" are, as far as we can tell, dead plants and animals that somehow got buried. Clearly, they took the CO2 from the surface of the planet. By releasing their CO2, we are merely returning the planet to it's former state.



Absorbing sunlight or screwing with air currents would absolutely have a noticable impact on the climate. Nothing sarcastic about that.



 Written by:



Do you *want* to start arguments or have people shout at you? Or are you actually stating your beliefs?





ubblol Do you think that stating my beliefs would make it less likely that people would argue or shout?



It shouldn't matter whether an idea is posted by someone who agrees with it, or someone who doesn't. It shouldn't change our response. We should respond to the idea, without getting personal.


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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:eek eek eek eek eek eek eek

ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol

Thanks Patriarch, you've made my day biggrin


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Do you want to answer the question? Or not? umm

And the point is that I can say something without meaning it. In all odds, it's not serious. Therefore there is no need to argue or debate over it. It's something I've written to add in some humour to what can be very serious and involved discussions.

I just don't know if your posts fit in the above catagory or whether you mean what you say. If you don't mean for the point to be taken seriously then say so. If they are serious then attach prefixes like "I think..." and "In my opinion...". smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:*silently wonders how dead animals can take CO2 from the Earth's surface*

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Pen Draven


Pen Draven

Unofficial Lord Of Confusion And Pirate Extrodinaire
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 1363
Posted:Daym I gotta get some of what Patriarch917 smokes,, i honestly do.. I mean no real disrespect but..... my gods

Some men see things and say why....

I Dream of things that never were and say Why Not....?

Oh No I'm going to get Shot Alive if he finds out - DA wink

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Pen Draven


Daym I gotta get some of what Patriarch917 smokes,, i honestly do.. I mean no real disrespect but..... my gods



ubblol ubblol ubblol


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Pen Draven


Pen Draven

Unofficial Lord Of Confusion And Pirate Extrodinaire
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 1363
Posted:Are you honestly serious dude ???

Some men see things and say why....

I Dream of things that never were and say Why Not....?

Oh No I'm going to get Shot Alive if he finds out - DA wink

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Birgit



*silently wonders how dead animals can take CO2 from the Earth's surface*





It's an interesting question. That theory is based on the idea that oil is dead organic material that got buried and changed. Of course, no one really knows where oil comes from.



Another good theory is that oil is being manufactured inside the earth abiogenically, and is seeping up through cracks to form underground pools. Abiogenic sources of oil such as this have been found, but not in profitable amounts.



http://www.livescience.com/environment/051011_oil_origins.html
br>


If oil is dead organic material that was once on the surface, it stands to reason that any CO2 it contains was somehow obtained by that life form before dying and congregating in a pool underground with all of its fellows. If oil is being manufactured underground, then we are pulling something to the surface that perhaps wasn't there before.



Calling it a "pollutant" is merely a value judgement of course, and depends on whether you like CO2 or not. I happen to hate mayo, and consider my sandwhich "polluted" if there is any on it. Others would disagree.



Like CO2, a warmer planet could be considered good, or bad. Generally for humans, warmer has been better. For those who want to know about climate change during our history, here's a paper on the subject:



http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/history_health.html


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Pen Draven


Pen Draven

Unofficial Lord Of Confusion And Pirate Extrodinaire
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 1363
Posted:Good if you happen to live on high ground anyhow... wink

Some men see things and say why....

I Dream of things that never were and say Why Not....?

Oh No I'm going to get Shot Alive if he finds out - DA wink

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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux

Total posts: 403
Posted:I'll have some too wink
*Takes deep lung filling breath*

The phenomenon is correctly called sequestration, animals incorporate carbon into their bodies as they grow and if they are not decomposed but buried and go into the ground later producing fossil fuels.
This has a net negative effect on the amount of carbon available in the biosphere- plants do it as well- produceing peat, coal, turf etc...

The problems occour whe humans come along and dig/suck up all the fossil fuels and burn them all in on go, the planet just can't process so much carbon dioxide back into biomass quick enough, hence a rise in global CO2 levels. frown

*exhales, and passes it back to Patriarch*


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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:*breath in*

Anyone have good data on what percentage of our atmosphere is now carbon dioxide, and how much it has changed since we've been using fossil fuels?

I tried to find out, but it's hard to get good sources. I did find out, though, that oxygen could very well be called a pollutant as well. Right now our oxygen level is at around 20.9%. Apparently, a 4% increase would pretty much make our planet die a firey death.

I had been under the impression that the oxygen/carbon dioxide balance in the atmosphere was maintained by plants growing or dying, such as the phytoplankton in the oceans. If there is excess CO2, lots of algea and what-not will grow and use it until it gets converted. If there is too little, the plants die off until there is more CO2.

Are we really pulling up enough from the ground to max out the biosphere's ability to use it? Even if we are, aren't we just returning what was stolen from our atmosphere in the first place, making the world better?

A greenhouse canopy seems likely to even out our planet more, giving us less drastic seasonal change and less space wasted on ice. I know that the reduction in the polar ice is opening up new fishing grounds that they are fighting over. Wouldn't the melted ice also help desalinate the oceans back to earlier levels?


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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted:[ur="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4803460.stm"]This[/url] is from the bbc website, with assosciated linked sources quotes some values.

Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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squarefish
SILVER Member since Sep 2002

(...trusty steed of the rodeo midget...)
Location: the state of flux

Total posts: 403
Posted:One of the major problems is that desalination of the oceans and a rise in sea temperature could have massive effects on oceanic flows such as the gulf stream.
There seems to be a definite possibilty that the gulf stream might just shut down if sea temp goes up by about three degrees on average in the north atlantic.

Weirdly enough this would make western Europe (especially Ireland where I live) about as warm as Moscow in winter.

NOT something I'm in favour of!

And also : yep We're overloading the systems of control, problem is that this sort of problem can runaway in a positive feedback loop.

For example: increse in temp- glacier retreats- exposes dark soil/gravel below- dark earth absobs more heat from the sun- warms the air- makes glacier melt faster- exposes more gravel/soil..............yada, yada, yada,

We can try to claw our way back from the edge of the slope but people such as the Bush administration and their fossil fueled bankrolls are chipping the ground from underneath us...... frown


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Personally I feel that the increased rates of flooding of low lying countries such as Bangladesh probably isn't a good thing, and that the increase in violent storms and pathogens sucks too. Perhaps the magic weather changing wind turbines will save us, so it'll all work out ubblol.

One of my more elderly lecturers has been measuring CO2 levels for a long time. Back a few decades CO2 levels were at about 320ppm, now adays they are at 370ppm. The information is actually fairly easy to find, only took me about 20 seconds to find this tasty graph.


Non-Https Image Link


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


I did find out, though, that oxygen could very well be called a pollutant as well. Right now our oxygen level is at around 20.9%. Apparently, a 4% increase would pretty much make our planet die a firey death.




True, everything is potentially a pollutant depending on concentrations and where it is.
However, we don't have many industries build upon releasing oxygen into the atmosphere. We're releasing plenty of carbon dioxide at a tremendous rate - even if you don't believe that's it's a pollutant at the moment, wouldn't it make sense to limit how much we release now, rather than when concentrations are high enough to be polluting?

 Written by:


Are we really pulling up enough from the ground to max out the biosphere's ability to use it? Even if we are, aren't we just returning what was stolen from our atmosphere in the first place, making the world better?



After the intelligent design thread, I really can't believe you think that we're returning the world to a better state - did god really create the world to be inhabitable for humans?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Ah. Interesting to see Ice Age stuff in there. To be honest I'm not sure where I stand either way at the meoment but we covered this in lectures not long ago and there were some interesting points.

There is an argument that we're still in a ice age. Ice at the poles is apparently rare in Earth's history.

The difference between Earth's current tempurature and a full blown ice age is about 4 degrees, we seem to have gone about 1 or 2 degrees in the other direction.

NOx gasses are far more potent as greenhouse gases and have been effectively ignored in things like the Keyoto Protocol (sp?)

Support is apparently growing for something called Global Dimming - particle pollution is messing with clouds - more particles in the air produces more, smaller water droplettes in clouds and larger clouds. Larger clouds (and especially with smaller droplettes) reflects more sunlight back - producing a cooling effect on the Earth and messing with air current patterns (many orders larger was that a wind farm would, which if you think about it, isn't really all that different from a forest or even town). This is apparently responsible for the African drouts in the 80s. The cooling effect seems to have been masking the true impact of Global Warming, because as now the particle as been mostly cleaned up Global Warming seems to be increasing.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: TheBovrilMonkey


However, we don't have many industries build upon releasing oxygen into the atmosphere.


At the risk of sounding flipant, what about agriculture and forestry?

Of course they wind up getting release as CO2 again eventually, so the carbon levels remains the same.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:There have been times in the Earth's history where the surface was barely livable (if at all - biologists?) but just cuz its been like that before doesnt mean we shouldnt be worried about movements in that direction. Personally - I like the planet the way it is (or could be - or was...before the industrial revolution say).

Even rich people in powerful nations are going to be affected by climate change, but I dont think they've really realised it yet...

Josh


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Domino

Support is apparently growing for something called Global Dimming - particle pollution is messing with clouds - more particles in the air produces more, smaller water droplettes in clouds and larger clouds. Larger clouds (and especially with smaller droplettes) reflects more sunlight back - producing a cooling effect on the Earth and messing with air current patterns (many orders larger was that a wind farm would, which if you think about it, isn't really all that different from a forest or even town).


Interesting hypothesis. There isn't much evidence that it will make much difference at the moment because global tempetures have been rising more or less constantly.

 Written by: Pyrolific


There have been times in the Earth's history where the surface was barely livable (if at all - biologists?) but just cuz its been like that before doesnt mean we shouldnt be worried about movements in that direction?


The natural state of the planet is a noxious and sweltering mixture toxic gases. Death for us but a heaven for the bacteria alive at the time. After the evolution of photosynthesis the biggest disaster ever occured since the newly formed oxygen was leathal to most of the bacteria at the time. We are able to live only because of the deaths of trillians of living things in the oxygen catastrophy. Kind of puts it in perspective, no? wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Jeff: This was an old Panorama video (I think) our lecture showed us. Part of it was since particle pollution has been cleaned up but rate of CO2 output remaining the same, temperature increase has started ..er.. increasing.

The other thing that was shown was a decrease in water evaporation rates. The rate water evaporates relies primarily on the amount of sunlight. I'm sure Google can find some stuff on it.

-

Oh yes. Apparently ice caps melting isn't the thing to worry about when it comes to flooding and sea levels. Thermal expansion of the oceans is the killer.


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Yeah, everything can be a poison... take Ozone, we need it surrounding earth to protect us, but down here it makes us sick!

But Patriarch, the animals that have turned into oil produced CO2 when they were alive. The carbon that got integrated into their bodies comes from organic sources. Fair enough, indirectly that's all from CO2, but the animals that turned into oil produced CO2 by breathing when they were alive, so to say they depleted earth of it would be wrong. At least not more than any other animal that dies and doesn't turn into oil...

and if you compare the speed at which animals are born, use up CO2 to grow, die and get turned into oil, that's nothing compared to the speed at which we burn the oil again.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted: Written by: Pyrolific


Even rich people in powerful nations are going to be affected by climate change, but I dont think they've really realised it yet...




here lies the problem, rich people NOW wont be effected by it because they'll most likely be dead before something drastic happens, and they'd rather maintain their riches and be in control while they're alive. its the same reason why politicians dont really get grand schemes that are for the common good up and running, but theres more about that kind of thing in tink's trying to be a better person thread .


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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