Forums > Social Discussion > Immigration is the new Gay Marriage (US Politics)

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'm sitting here listening to my president give a special address on immigration.

I'll start out by saying that the topic of illegal immigration is important. There are many excellent points on both sides of the arguement for being more and less strict with illegal immigration. There certainly are many groups of people on both sides of the arguement that are profoundly affected by this issue.

I am greatly concerned that this issue is PURPOSELY being blown out of proportion to distract from other important issues (the same way that I believe that gay marriage was put center stage in the 2004 election to distract from other issues and split the country 60/40.)

Gay marriage is an extremely important issue. But it was not more important than every other issue combined the way it was presented in the 2004 presidential elections.

Immigration is an extremely important issue. But it is not more important that every other issue combined the way the current administration is currently presenting it.

To me, it seems like a fairly transparent attempt to distract from Iraq, Iran, Katrina, Medicare, Energy Crisis, CIA vs. Civil Liberties, Terrorism, The Economy, International Relations, etc...

Wag the dog I guess....

[Sorry, I guess this ended up more 'ranty' than 'provocative.' Feel free to add, subtract, or, more likely, ignore.]


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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:you're a better (or worse) man than I....after Bush said he was commiting national guard to the boarder, I couldn't watch anymore and flipped the channel. smile

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Surely the biggest threat to American security are Mexicans looking for jobs? These gay marriages are just a cover so the Mexican labourers can get tax breaks.

All the pieces fit together, you see.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


Surely the biggest threat to American security are Mexicans looking for jobs? These gay marriages are just a cover so the Mexican labourers can get tax breaks.

All the pieces fit together, you see.



And the slow response to Katrina was just a way to ensure enough destruction to generate construction jobs for the Illegal Gay Mexicans.

Brilliant.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:On the plus side, it's almost inconcievable that Bush will get another term, so it's not as though what he decides God told him to do is law forever. shrug

On the other hand, it might be law for just long enough frown


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Did anyone else see the broadcast of his 'rehearsal' before it went live?

smile

Sorry, trivial.


Getting to the other side smile

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Sethis


On the plus side, it's almost inconcievable that Bush will get another term,



How many times must we tell you Brits: He's not allowed to run again. His job now it to set up the next guy. If that means taking a dive to make the next guy look good then that's what he'll do.

And don't forget, there's still another Bush left. frown


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Neon_Shaolin
Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam
Member Since: 13th Jul 2005
Total posts: 6120
Posted:It was almost inconceivable that he got re-elected but that still happened!

Any other paranoid conspiracy theorists think that Bush was deliberately put forward to be seen as the worst President ever so that his successor would be seen as a Godsend possibly allowing him to be more insidious...?

Nope? Just me then...


"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Neon_Fowl_in_Marinade


It was almost inconceivable that he got re-elected but that still happened!




It might of seemed inconceivable if you knew nothing of what was going on in America. All the polls had him winning and he won.


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spritie
spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX
Member Since: 9th Sep 2001
Total posts: 2014
Posted:If I ignore his plans for the national guard, I actually liked and agreed with what Bush had to say last night about the immigrant worker program. This surprised me greatly, and I was a tad freaked out by it as I've never approved of anything Bush has said or done.

I've had friends that were border patrol and INS agents, and honestly, that entire system needs a serious overhaul. The agents really have no control over the illegals trying to cross the border, and even if they are captured, they are just sent right back to Mexico to try again in a couple of days. Unless they are trying to smuggle massive amounts of drugs into the country, there is absolutely nothing a border patrol agent can do. I don't think sending in the national guard to add to the numbers will help one little bit, other than creating more paper work which no one wants to deal with as it is.

I also think it was somewhat a ploy on his end to improve his ratings. He's ignoring talking about the war and other hot topics because he knows that very few people see eye-to-eye with him on those topics, and his attempting to discuss them will really get absolutely nowhere as he doesn't want to listen to what the people have to say. He has his own agenda that he is sticking to on the war, and he really doesn't want to budge. So, he's finally figured out it's harmful to him to attempt to publicly speak about it.


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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Is this what that movie crash was all about?

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: spritie


I also think it was somewhat a ploy on his end to improve his ratings. He's ignoring talking about the war and other hot topics because he knows that very few people see eye-to-eye with him on those topics, and his attempting to discuss them will really get absolutely nowhere as he doesn't want to listen to what the people have to say. He has his own agenda that he is sticking to on the war, and he really doesn't want to budge. So, he's finally figured out it's harmful to him to attempt to publicly speak about it.



You said it so much better than me. smile


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boobookittyfudge
boobookittyfudge

sneaky little kitty
Location: Missouri
Member Since: 10th Sep 2005
Total posts: 251
Posted:i have to say i am a little worried about Bush's big plan. does it sound like indentured servants to anyone else? this worker program he has proposed seems shady. and i think it will reenforce the fact that americans are lazy and we need other people to do our dirty work.

also he mentioned talking to a gunnery seargent in the marine corp who is not a legal citizen but wishes to become one. my question is, don't you have to be a citizen to be in our armed forces? if not, i think that should be an issue we address.

i am thankful that he cannot be reelected. and if we ever put another Bush ion the white house i may have to destroy this counrty to put us out of our misery.

as far as the national guard being deployed to the mexican border. Bush claims we have more than enough troops to cover iraq and national disasters (ha!) and all of their regular duties. that is BS. if we had that many resources why are we so screwed?

okay i think i am done ranting.


you want the truth? you can't handle the truth!

mmmmm...cheesecake

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Well, BBKF, supposedly you have to be a citizen to collect gov't help, but there are illegals still getting food stamps.

I also saw on tele somewhere that if you can serve as a translator, you do not need to be a full citizen. There are translators in Iraq who were here in the US as students and were "enticed" into the military to be translators. It was pretty interesting.

The Bush counsin who is currently in charge of Fla is concidering running for Pres a few elections from now. I shiver with the thought. Both Bush's so far have brought war and near ruin to the country. I do not subscribe to the '3rd times a charm' on this.

As for playing this as a red cloak...absolutely. He's waving this in front of people to help get those ratings up. Two weeks ago he had the lowest rating of any president in history, from what I read. One of the Bush puppet masters is finally catching on that they are screwing up, but I think that it is waaaay too late for the "look at that!" tactic to fully work, especially because Americans have political ADD and passionate opinions they can't be swayed from.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Near ruin to the country? That's a bit extreme. Have you noticed how "the economy" hasn't made the news in several years? That's because it's doing great.

One of the main reasons for Bush's low approval ratings is discontent with his domestic policies, particularly immigration. Iraq and Afghanistan were important during the last election, but nothing has significantly changed about them and everyone seems content to continue the work being done there. We haven't had a terrorist attack in the U.S. since the War on Terror started, so it seems we are winning. The foremost national security issue right now seems to be that citizens of other countries are simply walking into the U.S. without any control over who or what comes in.

This is not a proactive decision by Bush to distract us from something. This is Bush finally reacting to an issue that the public has been clamoring to hear from him on. Bush has not avoided speaking on the war on terror and foreign policy. Rather, those have been his exclusive focus in the part. This was the first significant speech of this term, I believe, which focused on domestic issues.

Bush doesnt need to get his ratings up, because he is not running for reelection. Recall the 90% approval ratings he had in his first term, when he first promised that he was going to take on Iraq. Peoples opinions may have changed since then, but Bush has not. The only issue on which it seems that he was truly swayed by public opinion was on the issue of the last Supreme Court nomination. We wanted someone more reliably conservative than his first pick, and he gave it to us.

For an opinion poll to matter, you cant just ask Do you think Bush is doing a good job. What you have to ask is Do you think that Bush is doing a better job than Gore/Kerry/Hillary could do. The republicans dont have to have a 51% of the people think they can do a job in order to win the next election, they just have to make 51% of the people think they can do a better job than the democrats.

Apparently, the democrats still dont understand this, which is why they still spend time trying to find fault with Bush rather than coming up with better ideas. Kerry tried being anyone but Bush last election, and what happened? Bush became the first president since 1988 to win an election by the majority of the popular vote.


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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:The economy is doing great?

Which reports have you been reading?

During this Bush administration unemployment levels actually exceeded the unemployment percentages in the depression. Not so long ago, with Bush still in office, the nation was labelled as being in a massive depression.

Only now are we starting to claw out of that.
The war, the natural disasters and the crappy responses all have served as deterrents away from that.

If you read current reports, the economy is still nowhere near as good as it was during Clinton's run and the lines at the unemployment office are still pretty freakin' long.

We won't get into the voting process and my opinions of the "electoral college" and how they "accurately represent" the opinions of the people, mainly because that is waaaaaay off topic of how the gov't and media direct our attention where they want it to.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Id be impressed is Bush grants amnesty to all the illegal immigrants in the USA. After all, illegal immigrants are the backbone of the US economy.


I dont trust Bush, and this may seem extreme, so I really hope that sending out the National Guard to protect the boarders is not the start of some pogrom.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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boobookittyfudge
boobookittyfudge

sneaky little kitty
Location: Missouri
Member Since: 10th Sep 2005
Total posts: 251
Posted:hes not offering amnesty. illegal immigrants would still have to go through the process of citizenship. but he was a bit flaky on their "punnishment" before that could happen. and he offered a worker program to "keep track of the people in our country." still not a great plan.

patriarch, i have to agree with pele. what reprts are you reading? we desperatly need more democratic control to address real issues like stem cell research and unemployment.

boo bush! mad2


you want the truth? you can't handle the truth!

mmmmm...cheesecake

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Pele



The economy is doing great?



Which reports have you been reading?







Umm stuff like the reports put out by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3
br>


 Written by: Pele



During this Bush administration unemployment levels actually exceeded the unemployment percentages in the depression.



Not if you are speaking about the "great depression." At some points, the unemployment rate exceeded 20%. It took some time for it to come back under 10%.



In contrast, the worst rate during Bush's term has been 6.3%, and it's currently about 4.7%.



 Written by: Pele



Not so long ago, with Bush still in office, the nation was labelled as being in a massive depression.





Whoever labeled the nation that was probably either thinking of a country other than the U.S., woefully ignorant about economics, or trying to deceive the public in order to get votes.



 Written by: Pele



If you read current reports, the economy is still nowhere near as good as it was during Clinton's run and the lines at the unemployment office are still pretty freakin' long.





I've read the reports. The economy under Bush has been as good or better than it was during Clinton, especially in terms of unemployment, real GDP, and real wage increases. Not that either Bush or Clinton had much to do with that, since they have both taken a hands off approach to the economy. Our unemployment lines are pretty freakin' short, and have been for decades.



Compare the economy during the Bush administration to the economy during the Clinton administration and you will find nothing to complain about. A Bush spokesperson pops out every now and again to announce the good news, it gets a line or two on the evening news, and no one cares because everything is going fine. This is why it isn't an election issue.



I must ask what reports you and boobookittyfudge have been reading that would have you so concerned over current unemployment rates. Surely you have noticed what they are here, and compared them with rates in other countries.



To bring us back on topic, unemployment has not been a problem in the U.S. economy, despite absorbing millions and millions of "undocumented workers." It makes me suspect that perhaps they really are taking jobs that Americans don't want, since they dont seem to be putting citizens out of work to any significant degree.


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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted: Written by: boobookittyfudge


also he mentioned talking to a gunnery seargent in the marine corp who is not a legal citizen but wishes to become one. my question is, don't you have to be a citizen to be in our armed forces? if not, i think that should be an issue we address.



Y'know, this bugged me , too, when I first heard about it. At first it was because, like in many of his speeches, Bush mentioned meeting with an obligatory token minority who was in the Armed Forces. But it didn't really click until an hour or so after the speech. So I looked it up, & here's what I discovered:

"In order to join any branch of the United States Military, one must either be a U.S. Citizen, or one must be a legal immigrant, currently living in the United States, with a "green card." The United States Military cannot and will not assist in the immigration process. In order to join the U.S. Military, one must legally immigrate first, and then apply to join the military, once they are living in the U.S. "

Now even though they have restrictions on non-citizens who come from "hostile" countries, this still seems like an unwise practice. Are recruitment numbers so low, that we need vagabonds and criminals to fill the ranks? Now I know this guy served with distinction and all that, having risen to the rank of Master Sergeant, but this also meas that he must have lied about his citizenship/immigrant status, because he could not have attained that rank in less than 2 years, at which point his green card would have expired.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Prometheus


"In order to join any branch of the United States Military, one must either be a U.S. Citizen, or one must be a legal immigrant, currently living in the United States, with a "green card." The United States Military cannot and will not assist in the immigration process. In order to join the U.S. Military, one must legally immigrate first, and then apply to join the military, once they are living in the U.S. "

Now even though they have restrictions on non-citizens who come from "hostile" countries, this still seems like an unwise practice. Are recruitment numbers so low, that we need vagabonds and criminals to fill the ranks?




I would have to object to the idea that legal immigrants are vagabonds and criminals. Even most of the illegal immigrants generally dont seem to turn out to be vagabonds (even if you consider them criminals).

 Written by: Prometheus


Now I know this guy served with distinction and all that, having risen to the rank of Master Sergeant, but this also meas that he must have lied about his citizenship/immigrant status, because he could not have attained that rank in less than 2 years, at which point his green card would have expired.



I think you would need more fact checking before you could conclude that. It seems reasonable to me that after joining the military, they would extend his legal immigrant status at least for as long as he was willing to serve. In other words, could they not give him an extension (or a new green card) at the end of every two years?

I admit, I have never used a green card, or worked my way up to Master Sergeant. However, you seem to have just accused this man of being an illegal immigrant, a criminal, and a vagabond. If he is those things, it seems unlikely that the man would have been featured in a speech.

I would also object to your characterization of him as a token minority as if Bush really should have spoken to a white person instead. The issue was immigration, specifically immigration from our southern border. Since the majority of immigrants from there are not white, it is to be expected that the immigrant Bush spoke to would not be white.

It would have been odd for him to have tried to find a white immigrant who came from our southern border.


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:***OOPS, I was responding to Promethius here... not Patriarch***



I think you're mixing up 'citizen' with 'legal immigrant currently living with a green card'. They are two very different things.



It's also possible to live here with a work visa for an extended time without ever becoming a citizen so you're "Must be lying" theory doesn't hold.



 Written by: Prometheus



Are recruitment numbers so low, that we need vagabonds and criminals to fill the ranks?





As this is an immigration conversation are you calling immigrants vagabonds or are they criminals? confused



***As Patriarch just edged me out in posting I find we said much of the same thing... and the time when I find myself agreeing with Patriach means it's time for me to get offline and go home. ubblol ***


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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:Here we go again.

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yup. I saw that today and thought of this thread. Turns out Gay Marriage is the new Gay Marriage.

Unite America against Gays and Immigrants and you too can be president!


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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:90% of the states agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman. A president would be a fool to advocate any other position.

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Fathom
Fathom

member
Location: Online!
Member Since: 13th Jan 2005
Total posts: 103
Posted:I'd rather be a fool than be popular. But, i'm not president either.

And there was a time when a good chunk of the world thought that the sun orbited the earth. Doesn't mean they're right and the same applies to that 90%. I think we should just do away with marrige all together.

But thats off topic. Sorry everyone.


Kangaroo Island eh? I hear that place is really hopping!

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:That's a good argument against democracy, but I doubt you could get the majority of voters to agree with doing away with majority rule. wink

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted: Written by:

The BBC's James Coomarasamy in Washington says a slight majority of Americans are against same-sex unions - but most want their individual states to make the final decision about their legality.

Democrats accuse Mr Bush of cynically promoting an issue which appears to have little chance of Congressional approval to appeal to the Republicans' conservative base ahead of November mid-term elections.

Mr Bush has been experiencing slumping popularity in opinion polls - particularly over Iraq.



Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


That's a good argument against democracy, but I doubt you could get the majority of voters to agree with doing away with majority rule. wink



Dunno, with the right PR I think the US would elect a King. It's not like we're doing anything great with the democracy as it is. wink


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well Patriarch pulls out "90% are against it" while a BBC reporter pulls out "A slight majority are against it".

I pull out "Why don't you just let people marry who they love?"


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: Sethis


I pull out "Why don't you just let people marry who they love?"



Let me see if I have this counter arguement right...

"Because if we let everyone marry who they love then people will marry their dogs and tnen they will have dog/human puppybabies who will eat you."

Or was it...
"If we let people marry who they love then people in the red states can marry their sisters and then they will have deformed babies with mental disablities who will try to reelect Bush because 'He's one of us'"

Or maybe it's:
"A marriage must be between a man and a woman so that each couple will have at least one person that we can deny abortion rights to if the other one decides to rape her."

No ... that's not it... hang on...

I think it might be Tsunami related. Gays causing this change in the world weather systems or something. That's just what I heard. And we all saw the New Orleans footage.

And I'm pretty sure that Al Qaeda is gay. I mean think about it.


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