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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Poi - a wholistic/ scientific approach...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Is there anybody out there who is using Poi for teaching, is teaching Poi in a "wholistic"/scientific way?

I am throwing some theories at you, just briefly:

Feldenkrais, Montessori, Ayres

I am curious whether anyone is out there who is looking at Poi to be more than "just a ball on a string", but in context with the above mentioned theories and what you think about the use of poi in education science?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted: Written by: FireTom

Ayres



I used to have a cleaning lady called Mrs. Ayres.
She spoke like she was chewing gravel. umm
She was our cleaning lady for as long as I could remember.
Untill she disappeared without a trace shrug

True story....


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted:wholistic is usually the opposite of scientific, where i'm from at least. Science is breaking things apart from the top down to study them. wholism is the denial that seperate parts exist to break down in the first place. you cannot have science without repeatability -- you cannot have wholism without the lack of repeatability (each instance has its own character).

if you're name dropping like that, i've got to assume you might know more about what you're going on about than i do -- please explain??


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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:good points dut.

i use poi like qigong... relax and stimulate the qi flow.

smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:OK, OK wink Maybe too general terms

Feldenkrais
 Written by:

The Feldenkrais Method is an educational system intended to give individuals a greater functional awareness of the self. The method uses body movement as the primary vehicle for learning in the human organism. It is perhaps due to this focus on body movements that the Feldenkrais Method is often classified as a complementary and alternative medicine. People interested in the Feldenkrais Method are predominantly individuals who either want to improve their movement repertoire (as dancers, musicians, artists), individuals who want to reduce their pain or limitations in movement, or individuals who want to use the method as a way to improve their well-being and personal development. Advocates claim the Feldenkrais Method is a very successful approach in cases of movement related pain (e.g. pain in backs, knees, hips, shoulders), and learning better functioning in cases of stroke or cerebral palsy. A central tenet of the method is that improving someone's ability to move can improve their overall well-being; and practitioners of the Method generally refrain from referring to conceptions of illness, diagnosis or therapy.



Montessori

 Written by:

The Montessori method is described as a way of thinking about who children are. As a philosophy, it emphasizes the unique individuality of each child, it also emphasizes that children are distinctly different from adults in the way they develop and think, that they aren't just "adults in small bodies". Dr. Montessori believed in children's rights and the worth, value and importance of children . Comparisons to norms and standards measured by traditional educational systems are discouraged in Montessori practice, it is expected that some children will master some skills slower than others, and some skills faster. Instead, Montessori adherents believe that children should be free to succeed and learn without restriction or criticism. Dr. Montessori believed that rewards and punishments for behavior were damaging the inner attitudes of children and also people.

As an educational approach, the Montessori method's central focus is on the needs, talents, gifts, and special individuality of each child. The child controls the pace, topic and repetition of lessons independent of the rest of the class or of the teacher. Children who experience the joy of learning are believed to be happy, confident, and fulfilled.

Additional important skills emphasized by the Montessori method are self-reliance and independence. Independence is encouraged by teaching a child "practical life" skills, Montessori preschool children learn to dress themselves, help cook, clean, put their toys and clothes away and take an active part of their household, neighborhood and school. Montessori education carried through the elementary and high school years begins to encourage more group work but still relies on the student as the guide and guardian of his or her own intellectual development.



 Written by:

holistic
Of or relating to holism.

Emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts.

Concerned with wholes rather than analysis or separation into parts: holistic medicine; holistic ecology.

1 : of or relating to holism
2 : relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts <holistic medicine attempts to treat both the mind and the body>
adj : emphasizing the organic or functional relation between parts and the whole




 Written by:

scientific

adj 1: of or relating to the practice of science; "scientific journals" 2: conforming with the principles or methods used in science; "a scientific approach"



 Written by:

science (sns)

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to explaining a limitied class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.




Jean Jaques Russeau

 Written by:

Rousseau set out his views on education in mile, a semi-fictitious work detailing the growth of a young boy of that name, presided over by Rousseau himself. He brings him up in the countryside, where, he believes, humans are most naturally suited, rather than in a city, where we only learn bad habits, both physical and intellectual. The aim of education, Rousseau says, is to learn how to live, and this is accomplished by following a guardian who can point the way to good living.

The growth of a child is divided into three sections, first to the age of about 12, when calculating and complex thinking is not possible, and children, according to his deepest conviction, live like animals. Second, from 10 or 12 to about 15, when reason starts to develop, and finally from the age of 15 onwards, when the child develops into an adult. At this point, Emile finds a young woman to complement him.

The book is based on Rousseau's ideals of healthy living. The boy must work out how to follow his social instincts and be protected from the vices of urban individualism and self-consciousness.




All that I was asking for in the first place is, whether there is anyone here, who has a different approach to Poi than "it's just a ball on a string" and "we're just spinning it around our heads"

Whether this is a scientific (as opposing to) or a wholistic approach - I don't care so much - it might even be a scientific/holistic approach shrug

Is anyone here, who uses poi in educational science, or is working with children?

PS: Unfortunately I have not found anything about Anna Jean Ayres (* 1920; 1989) who was a psychologist, graduating at UCLA and founding the Ayres-clinic 1976 in Torrance/USA for the treatment of children and education of therapeuts...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have nothing to contribute, you may still post as you wish - to keep this thread on the first page unless someone pops up and gives some reasonable input... wink tongue


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:Post deleted by stout

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:this is vaguely relevant

and this

ok, Feldenkrais and Montessori i could find on Wikipedia.

but Ayres? Do you mean Pam Ayres? I really don't see how she's at all relevant...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted: Written by: FireTom


PS: Unfortunately I have not found anything about Anna Jean Ayres (* 1920; 1989) who was a psychologist, graduating at UCLA and founding the Ayres-clinic 1976 in Torrance/USA for the treatment of children and education of therapeuts...




Um, I graduated from UCLA and started educating children at Torrence High School in the USA. Does that make ME Anna Ayres?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@NYC: so your real name is Anna and you're dead already? Funny though that the transmission of your posts takes 17 years and are somewhat suiting the topics... But this just adds up to the theory that time is a stupid human invention and not linear... rolleyes wink tongue hug

Simian: dunno whether spinning poi makes anyone smarter (according to the threads you referred to), but it certainly activates right/left brain activity and therefore triggers more potential... whether or not this increases intelligence I can't say...

As juggling and moving in general gives people a different understanding of their body, on top of it may trigger a higher body awareness...

The imagination/ experience of the poi moving around you and visualisation of them certainly expands consciousness, but riding a pushbike or any activity/ meditation does that...

However I was inquiring whether anyone of the board is working with children - maybe even with children who face learning and behavioural disorders and whether or how the "poi-experience" is tackling or challenging these...

Personally I was approaching the topic just like "balls on a string" and spun them around my body - experienced an increase of (body) awareness (besides the usual workout)... but I come across one or the other who is having a different angle (one that is more "scientific" so to speak) and only wanted to bring this up and see whether this rings a bell with someone out there...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@stout: sorry to have somewhat ignored your (now deleted) post...

I think the approach that you described is the right one anyways, because bothering people with philosophies when all they want is to experience doesn't make sense... Much like "free your body and the mind will follow"...

Did anyone come to a conclusion, or summed up whether or not the practice of poi is having an impact - as to support learning science or auch?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Stout
SILVER Member since May 2004

Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada

Total posts: 1872
Posted:No worries, I just felt it became completley irrelavalent once I noticed your interests were in workng with challenged children, somthing I have no experience with.

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jonathan


enthusiast
Location: new zealand

Total posts: 210
Posted:well,

ive taught basic poi moves to autistic/ brain injured kids ect.
it helps heaps with their coordination, their confidence, all sorts of stuff. i think it gives them a way to delve into their bodies and understand how they move a bit better.
also, its good fun and they can participate. i mean, we all enjoy it right?
one great aspect is that poi tend to even out strength differences in arms/sides of bodies ect, quite common in these types of kids

i dont really teach poi these days much, but i use it as a tool to understand how the balance of the body and the coordination of breathing ect can be used to create a force, with seemingly little muscular effort.

back to the kids though, i noticed that one kid i work with is having a lot of progress in his jumping ability, using incremental steps built up with by body awareness initiated by poi moves.

its quite incredible to see this little guy do these huge leaps cause he's nailed the concepts of double breathing and buying some 'hangtime' in the air.

i guess it depends on the individual kid though a?, its not everyones cup of tea.


but science/art/holistic?

does it really matter?

using metaphysics as a (somewhat fanciful) analogy; if you and i can both make it rain and i say its cause im talking to ghia and you say its merely the creation of an intense low with associated moisture

does the grass care?

say i can do two one handed butterfly's and so can you...... i describe move x as this whereas you see from another angle as that. the best outcome is for me to go 'tru dat man' and wonder why i missed that take on it, and ponder what else i may have missed out on.

but (forgive me for going on a bit) having a scientific understanding of things can help you explain things in simpler terms.................

for instance ive been doing gi cheon mun (korean mountain clan yoga/ninjitsu/taichi/////! wink and its mostly an internal art. now scientifically i know that if i breathe thusly my heart will behave accordingly and by moving appendages correctly a big whack of blood will shoot down the meridians or whatever resulting in a good deal of impact........... i.e., thats kinda what chi circulation is about.

also i know that if i move my body in a particular way it will inhale generating a similar effect.............

now im sure everyone can 'get the gist' of that......... the fact that i know the science and the holistic and the mystical aspect in great depths dosent come into it really....................
except that theres a few pages worth of largely irrelevant stuff that dont really matter too much so long as you can grasp the concept

its true, what good is a lot of theory when you cant recognise it as the experience when it happens?

is it the journey or the destination?

the more one knows the more one can appreciate their understanding

'insert another cliche here'


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:*gg* nicely put, thanks smile



For some time I enjoy just playing Poi, without fire - just the motion itself gives me so much satisfaction... I wonder why...



To visualise (to technically understand) the moves sometimes greatly improve my play...



And by the way this is not exclusively about (teaching) children. Many adults are responding to both: Just do it! and explanation to the VERY detail... much more than children who just "have a go" smile



But Yay, "knowall" is not "seeall" and for sure not "feelall" - though every journey reaches some (temporary) destinations along the way... wink

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1144750136)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jonathan


enthusiast
Location: new zealand

Total posts: 210
Posted:perhaps you could look into how your balance affects how the poi moves around?
i always recomend looking at what the feet are doing to help visualise the move


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted: Written by: jonathan


perhaps you could look into how your balance affects how the poi moves around?
i always recomend looking at what the feet are doing to help visualise the move



The first part I understand and I like the approach of "mind your feet", as to "observe the breath"... hence how does the awareness of how my feet move, help me visualize the move itself? umm

If my feet are not moving "correctly" (as classified under the Tai Chi-act... wink ) the move itself might not reveal itself "correctly"... to notice what is happening and why (the right/ wrong way) one would have to notice where the erraneous move comes from hand or feet... without a (live) tutor pointing it out it`s difficult to seperate those, don`t you think?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jonathan


enthusiast
Location: new zealand

Total posts: 210
Posted:well, yes absolutely if your feet dont move the rest of your body into position then how will your arms get there in sycn. thats why i always try to visualise where my feet ect will go.

i guess one of the main points of this thread is that you can 'feel' if the poi move correctly.

we used to call this 'buzzing out'

*indulges in some hazy nostalgic memories*

as for the breathing.................. well, its an odd phenomanen all this korean yoga but here goes.

i can initiate a movement by breathing and i can also intitiate a breath by moving.................now i do tend to go on a bit, so it may not be that useful.

but

its a good way of talking about harmony of body movements. if you think about it, everyone has some sort of 'form' they like to keep to, by making sure you know where your feet are ment to be you can keep to your desired form. hopefully you get the move down pat.

ive been horrified in the past by how gawky and unco i look when looking in a window or whatever, but the truth can only help in these circumnstances

as for poi moves, i tend to go about figuring out moves in my head based on what other moves i can do. moves tend to be paired, or in fours ect.

i dont really think a live tutor is always availiable, but i think its always good advice to have a straight back, and keep your elbows in. as for foot work, well it depends on the individual i guess. i have bizzairre stances and wierd footwork cause of what i do........

but whatever your fancy its a good idea to walk through the moves i think

as for separating whether or not its hand or feet error hmmmm
id say if it glances off you its probably your hands. if you get nailed hard its probably your feet. of course this is a gross generality..............

ever zigged when you should have zagged!!
ouchieee!!!


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

lurker
Location: Nashville, TN

Total posts: 380
Posted: Written by: FireTom


OK, OK wink Maybe too general terms

Feldenkrais
 Written by: ] tech.[/quote



Montessori

 Written by: ] flow. [/quote



All that I was asking for in the first place is, whether there is anyone here, who has a different approach to Poi than "it's just a ball on a string" and "we're just spinning it around our heads"

Whether this is a scientific (as opposing to) or a wholistic approach - I don't care so much - it might even be a scientific/holistic approach shrug




fixed to make it even more general, but at least in familiar terms to HoP. haha. there's actually a big divide between these two even for those of us who learned on our own. is it possible that the first (Feldenkrais) be the right way to teach, but the second (Montessori) be the right way to learn sponaneously? You definitely get elements of both I think with Poi as it's a somewhat technical art...


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