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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Check it

Nice to see that there are some people making things happen, and not buying Bush's Holy War.

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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LahuKalen
newbie

Member Since: 24th Feb 2006
Total posts: 20
Posted:A thank you would have been polite, but yeah, otherwise, I totally agree with these guys. (And I say that as a Christian).

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afghan_bingo
afghan_bingo

member
Location: Calgary, Canada
Member Since: 20th Sep 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:so it would be good if all our forces left iraq, would it? no it wouldnt, if we left iraq would become more anarchic that it already is. the army is doing its best to keep the peace, and if they left iraq would become completely lawless with numerous factions shooting the hell out of each other (not much different from now, but at least we can vaguely control it) and i really dont agree with the pomposity of this christian group, and our being there is not the root cause of the kidnappings, the militants have been kidnapping westerners for years. they are too blinded by faith to realise the reality of war, it is a godless inhuman event which essentially is built into the human psyche and something we cannot stop or prevent. there will always be war, it might not be global but it will be in your town, on your doorstep. your civilisation was built on conquest and death, same as everyone elses and there is nothing that can be done about it, you cant tame human nature, it will always prevail.

we were somewhere near barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:And I thought I was cynical...

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:I followed the link to Terry Waite's interview. Most illuminating

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Firstly Christians doing something positive shouldn't come as such a shock... google someone like Bishop Carlos Belo, a Nobel Prize winning Timorese peace activist for an example of Christians doing something really positive for a community

Afghan Bingo, why is it that you should decide the fate of Iraqis? After WMD and Iraq/Al Qaeda links (before we invaded... now there definately are links) both fell apart as reasons for invasion, Bush and Blair claimed this was to bring democracy to the Iraqi people.

One important source as to what the Iraqi's want is a poll for the British Ministry of Defence this past August, carried out by Iraqi university researchers and leaked to the British Press. It found that 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops and less than 1 per cent believe they are responsible for any improvement in security.

Now as an occuping force we have no right to be in Iraq. And the Iraqi people say they dont want us there. In fact at the momemnt the British army doesn't even have formal relations with the Basra security forces after breaking into Basra jail.

British and American troops are not in Iraq to safeguard civilians. They're a safeguard for economic intersts. British corporations have over 1.2 billion dollars worth of contracts in iraq at present. Contracts we (as opposed to iraqis) awarded. If the armed forces left those contracts would be cancelled. The US has about 10 times that in terms of contracts (often no-bid and handed out to corps with close links to the Republican administration such as Haliburton and Bechtel).

As for you're human nature nonsense... Well I suppose it's one way of justifing wars and a right wing political view to yourself. Unfortunately 'human nature' is a redundant argument, as it somehow presupposes the possibility of separating a human from culture. In which case you have a creature unable to communicate linguistically or look after itself (baby vs wolf... my money's on the wolf). As humans have the capacity to be incredibly selfish and destructive, or altruistic and creative, you'd have to say that every facet of observable human behavior is in our nature and mediated through an infinite number of subjective cultural variables... which is tantamount to saying human nature and culture is everything...


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I just saw this on the news, they're all saying "thank you" now.

I don't understand the *shock* at Christians doing good works either.


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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:I should apologise, the title of the thread was sarcastic, I wholeheartedly agree with everything they say, and was genuinely gladdened to see that there are members of the Christian community who are doing something positive, as opposed to the large number who believe Bush is God's appointed leader.

As for everything else, I think dream articulated my point of view pretty well.

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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VampyricAcid
VampyricAcid

veteran
Location: My House
Member Since: 27th Jun 2005
Total posts: 1286
Posted:firstly you can make statistics say whatever you want to so that 82% is 82% of what? university students? the entire population? 82 saddam supporters and 18 non supporters? second whatever the excuses were used to go to iraq lies conjecture truth, to be honest it matters notto me, there is one less dictator in the world to torture a country, restarting a country is always gonna be tough but don't blame the troops, that are there following orders and doing their job.

Proudly Owned By The BMVC

Are You Sniffing My Mitten?

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Funnily enough, I dont have much faith in Christians doing anything except getting the road. The fact that they didnt say thank you says it all.



 Written by: ] But they pointedly failed to acknowledge that the hostages had been freed in a military operation involving British, American, Canadian and Iraqi forces. Instead they blamed the presence of foreign troops for Iraqs problems.



No mention was made of the special forces, intelligence officers and police who worked for months to secure the mens release.[/quote





The group also seems a bit suspicious  Written by: ]The group was founded two decades ago by Ronald Sider, a Canadian-born American theologian, who called for Christians to be prepared to die by the thousands for peace to counter those killed by armies at war. Volunteers for duty in Baghdad must sign an agreement declaring that they understand that they might be injured, kidnapped or killed.[/quote





I think there are better ways to achieve world peace than die by the thousands. Which seems a bit contradictory really.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1143510168)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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FireByNite
FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 8th Dec 2004
Total posts: 349
Posted: Written by: Vampyricacid


there is one less dictator in the world to torture a country,

isn't that what Bush is? wink
 Written by: Vampyricacid

restarting a country is always gonna be tough but don't blame the troops, that are there following orders and doing their job.


I totally agree with this one


Are you up for it?
wink;)

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afghan_bingo
afghan_bingo

member
Location: Calgary, Canada
Member Since: 20th Sep 2005
Total posts: 116
Posted:i never said i should decide the fate of iraqis, theyre havin a crap time but its better than the time they had when sadam was in power.

now, im not an economist. and by your statement about busines interests i take it you arent either. but i do know one thing, if we were to lose that stated amount of business contracts this would be very bad for our economy .so it is a very good idea to safegaurd these endeavours. please state where you got these facts and statistics because i would like to see the evidence for myself. and if you say you got them form an internet site that wasnt an official news / correspondance site then i will be very disappointed.


we were somewhere near barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

you can make statistics say whatever you want to so that 82% is 82% of what? university students? the entire population? 82 saddam supporters and 18 non supporters?



82% of the population, as suggested via a sample group. Its how surveys work. It correlates fairly closely with a similar survey carried out by the US army which came out with 79% wanting foreign troops out of Iraq. It also pretty much matches the election results. The Shia block have consistently said that while they appreciate the US + UK getting rid of Saddam, now he's gone thay have no buisness being there. Bear in mind that this alliance includes Moqtada Al-Sadr, a man the US put a bounty on and waged a military campaign against last summer. Add to this the Sunnis vote, which also called for foreign troops to leave immediately and you have about 80% of the Iraqi electoral vote. The Kurds as a whole support the US occupation... however many are still distrustful of the US, as while the no fly zone was enforced over northern Iraq between the two gulf wars on numerous occasions planes were recalled to base while Turkish special forces poured over the border and massacred Kurdish villagers. But Turky is a trusted NATO ally so if they kill civillians its ok.

Ther truth is, from the moment Baghdad was taken and Saddam fled, the occupation has been enormasly unpopular with Iraqi's all over the country. While Fox News may claim the insurgency is foreign fighters and ex Saddam loyalists, the truth is that the US army admits that only 5% of insurgents have been foreigners. Which meand that 95% of the insurgents are Iraqis trying to liberate their country from an illegal occupation. Like them or not, if you believe in self-determination or democracy there's no way that our troops should be there.

 Written by:

second whatever the excuses were used to go to iraq lies conjecture truth, to be honest it matters notto me



It's always nice to know that people don't give a rats ass whether or not their government has lied to them to take their citizens to war and make a load of cash for themselves and their corporate buddies, while other people's kids are being shot at, and your taxes are spent on bombing iraqi kids.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:and BAM



cue rant



right or wrong guys, you are off topic



*so take it outside* wink


Love is the law.

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Loki_the_trickster
Loki_the_trickster

Has sharp edges
Location: Stuck in the mire
Member Since: 1st Feb 2006
Total posts: 1266
Posted: Written by: ado-p


and BAM

cue rant

right or wrong guys, you are off topic

*so take it outside* wink


ubblol ubblol ubblol
What? A thread going off topic? I'm shocked ubblol


My ADD makes it so that.....Ooooo SHINY.....wanna go ride bikes....wait....where am I.....

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

i never said i should decide the fate of iraqis, theyre havin a crap time but its better than the time they had when sadam was in power.




Actually again surveys suggest you are wrong. Most Iraqis have said although they are happy to be rid of Saddam, life has gotten WORSE since the invasion. GDP is down, unemployment in up, they only have electricity for a few hours a day and the security situation is far worse (sectarian death squads, militia etc) - nonewithsatnding the 35,000,000-100,000 Iraqis dead as a result of the invasion and occupation...

In fact if you look at what made life most miserable for ordinary Iraqis for a long time it wasn't Saddam, but the US and UK sponsored UN sanctions which impoverished the country. When told that these sanctions had led to the deaths of half a million Iraqi children former US secretary of state Madelaine Albright described it as 'A price worth paying.'


 Written by:

now, im not an economist. and by your statement about busines interests i take it you arent either. but i do know one thing, if we were to lose that stated amount of business contracts this would be very bad for our economy .so it is a very good idea to safegaurd these endeavours.



Right. So you advocate a illegal and unpopular military occupation on the grounds that its good for Anglo-American business. censored censored censored It's good to know what you value in life

 Written by:

please state where you got these facts and statistics because i would like to see the evidence for myself. and if you say you got them form an internet site that wasnt an official news / correspondance site then i will be very disappointed.



Eh??? so you value the Sun over say the UN commision for human rights because they aren't an offical news site??? Well it explains alot. But anyways... while I don't normally source things straight from newspapers (aid agencies/the UN/government souces/academic papers tend to be alot more accurate) this was the front three pages of the Independent from either the 15th or 16th of this month. For a decent overview of corporate involvement in Iraq have a look round Znet www.zmag.org or corporate watch www.corpwatch.org


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Boz
Boz

sober
Location: Bury St. Edmunds, suffolk
Member Since: 22nd Sep 2004
Total posts: 109
Posted:*ahem* i think you'll find that 1)the sun isn't the only news providing organisation on the net
2)the un commission of rights probably has what could be considered an 'official correspondence site'

getting in a huff about it wont help. Neither will typecasting anyone who doesn't necessarily advocate immediate and full withdrawl as some kind of flag waving right wing shaven headed goon.

both go to the chill out corner and have a sandwich

rolleyes


*produces sandwich- is happy*

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted: Written by: ado-p


and BAM

cue rant

right or wrong guys, you are off topic

*so take it outside* wink



Have to disagree with ya Ado old bean, but conversations like this are exactly why i started the thread. I think there's far too much niceness on HoP these days, and we need some good row's to keep things interesting.

Now, no biting, fish-hooking and eyegouging:

Let's get it ON! :sarcasticsmile: ubblol

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted: Written by:

getting in a huff about it wont help. Neither will typecasting anyone who doesn't necessarily advocate immediate and full withdrawl as some kind of flag waving right wing shaven headed goon.




nowt to do with flag waving or football hooligns...no mention of how asylum seekers are a plague of locusts on our civllised society... what was said was

 Written by:

i do know one thing, if we were to lose that stated amount of business contracts this would be very bad for our economy .so it is a very good idea to safegaurd these endeavours.





safegaurd(or perhaps safeguard)ing these endevours means maintaining a military occupation of a foreign state in order to protect corporate economic interests.

This is quite clearly what most people would call right-wing politics.


As for getting pissed off with people either advocating war/ocupation for material benefit or

 Written by:

whatever the excuses were used to go to iraq lies conjecture truth, to be honest it matters notto me





well... if it makes me angry because it's not the sort of society I want to live in. And if I wasn't angry about the war, occupation, or those who seek to justify its continuation because it financially benefits western corporations I'd probably be just another chilled out apathetic twat who isn't bothered if their government lies to take them to war.

Do you honestly believe its acceptable to invade a country and kill 35-100,000 people for material benefit??? If you answered yes to that question, tell me, do you feel it would ok for me to stab you for your wallet? Or my next door neighbour???

If the answer is no, then clearly in your eyes the life of an Iraqi is worth less than that of an Englishman. Which is generally referred to as rascism.

and as for

 Written by:

but don't blame the troops, that are there following orders and doing their job.



Again... most moral standards would require that you apply the same standards to yourself and your own people as you do to others. At the Nuremburg trials the allies set a precedent... Following orders was not a defence, people have to take resposibilty for their actions. Which is why I have the utmost respect for those troops who have refused to fight in Iraq.

By the standards we applied at the end of WW2 Bush, Blair, Cheney et al would be hung.

While I feel that may be going too far, lengthy imprisonment for misleading parliament/senate and launching an illegal military campaign on foreign soil seems fair.

biggrin

that provocative enough Mags


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:I think for the about the second time in my HoP career I wholeheartedly agree with dream.

Well said that man! clap hug

Although you might want to edit the 35,000,000 typo in your second last post wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Yeah, that'll do it. ditto what he said.

devil


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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polarity
polarity

veteran
Location: on the wrong planet
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1228
Posted:I have very good reasons for not trusting official sources of information, seeing as they have such obvious bias (appologies for it being .pdf).

I've also spent time with a couple of people who went to school/college with the likes of the Rothschilds, Rockerfellers, and Rupert Murdoch, so I have first hand accounts that these are the kind of people who will happily start wars in order to gain money and power. Apparently they believe that they are superior to people with less wealth and of lower breeding than themselves in the same way that feudal royalty did in the dark ages, almost to the point of considering it their 'god given right' to run the world.


You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.

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