Forums > Social Chat > Was I unreasonable & snobby?

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_khan_
_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Member Since: 17th Nov 2004
Total posts: 768
Posted:So recently I was spinning in the park on one of the freakishly warm days we sometimes get in February in San Francisco. This person I've seen around but don't really know at all was watching me spin for a while, then came up and asked if she could tape me -- she had a video camera with her. I asked her why she wanted to tape me and she said that she didn't have any good transitions between moves and she liked what I was doing and she wanted to tape me so she could go home and study it. I told her I'd be glad to show her some stuff but I wasn't into being taped. She said she didn't really want a lesson, she just wanted to record what I was doing. I told her I wasn't into that and she got all in a huff and said "whatever," and stomped away, clearly annoyed with me.

Now it wasn't the taping itself that bothered me so much. I mean, I am planning on making some videos to post myself, and I certainly have learned much from watching videos others have posted. But this was different as the video was clearly not intended for posting for community viewing, but for this one person to copy my transitions and moves. It felt invasive and kind of icky. Later, I noticed her sitting by herself with her camera, pointing it at different people who were spinning. I don't know if she got their permission or not, but considering the way she was being kind of sneaky about it I suspect not.

Anyway, the incident has been bothering me ever since because I don't know if I was being overly-sensitive and possessive or if I was justified in feeling infringed upon. I mean, we all do the same moves more or less, it's how we do them and the transitions we use and which moves we transition into which moves that creates our style. She as much as told me she couldn't come up with her own and wanted to copy mine. Or at least that's how I took it but I just don't know if I was right or if I was being unreasonable & a poi snob & should just relax about such requests.

Insight & opinions would be very much appreciated.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:You were totally in the right.

Even taking photographs without permission is obnoxious.

We have problems with this in our community... mostly due to nudity and other nonpoish stuff...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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fNi
fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York
Member Since: 8th Mar 2004
Total posts: 3354
Posted:I think you were in the right, not only did she not want to put in the time to learn something new, when you were there and would have been easier to learn, but she wasn't even asking permission.

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:clap well done khan, i would of done exactly the same thing.

what with all this " big brother is watching" stuff i think we are filmed quite enough without our knowledge.


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Fine_Rabid_Dog
Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 10530
Posted:"snobby" There's that word again. frown

Nah, you were totally ok to do that. smile


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:Unless its someone I know very well or I'm performing publically I don't like having photographs or videos taken unless I know that they'll be posted somewhere that other people can watch them. I would object to someone trying to copy my style too as I have some onteresting little quirks that I'd like to keep my own (as most spinners do). I will say that I do study other peoples style but I try and adapt it to suit my own type of spinning.

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Khan clearly you should have agreed and just stood and done a very, very fast 3 beat weave for 10 minutes or until she got bored filming, whichever happened first biggrin

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: in the trees
Member Since: 31st Dec 2004
Total posts: 7193
Posted:i'm with miss skull, or you could of just stood there spinning them around your head like the "nuttyest" move with "yo-sticks"ubblol

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Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted:Hmm nah not snobby, alot of people feel icky about being filmed, having photographs taken is bad enough for some people (eek). I would have felt embarressed too if I were asked and ide probably say no too, shes in the wrong abit really getting in a huff, alltho it is abit funny lol, sneakily filming poi hehe

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Gidg
Gidg

Super Gidg!!!!
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 8506
Posted:Totally agree with what you did Khan. There would be no reason to do any filming since you were willing to teach her.

Around here the only people that take pictures without permission are spinners or people connected to the spinners. We know how they will be used and where they will be used at. Anyone else asks permission and explains what they are doing with the shots.


Growing old is mandatory; growing up is NOT.
Proud member of the HoP DPS.
Sanity is a highly overrated state of mind.
I'm normal ... it's everyone else that's crazy.

Gidg

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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:I think you were completely in the right, but then again I am biased.

I really don't like cameras, still and video. They make me very very uncomfortable, and I hate looking at photos of myself. Its a very rare person who has any documented proof that I exist.

Over a year ago, I was spinning at Glebe with Mech and Dentrassi. There was 2 film crews there and accompanying photographers. It was incredibly intimidating for me. The nicer ones asked permission, which I politely refused. But a lot just went on taking photos like it was a show for their benefit. (Even though I did my usual thing of sneaking off into a darker quieter patch.)

Dentrassi had some problems, as we had gone down specifically for Mech to take some photos of him for portfolio/promotion stuff. I ended up having to wander around telling three people to stop filming, as it was a private shoot going on. And I had to go back and "remind" them a couple of times.

Not a fun night. mad


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:As a future lawyer, I'll try to argue in her favor... smile

I don't know the law specifically in your city, but if you were in a public park she probably didn't need your permission to tape you... and she could have done it even when you asked her not to.

So, assuming she knows this (she is the one with the camera, after all), she may have been asking simply out of courtesy for something which she knew she had a right to do anyways. Since you asked her not to do something which she had a legal right to do, she probably felt this was an imposition on your part... especially considering that had been "extra nice" by asking you at all.

IMO, you weren't particularly unreasonable. But if she actually followed the line of reasoning I laid out here, I can see why she would have been annoyed... and why she chose to just film the other spinners without asking them first.

I think it's interesting that you are very careful about letting people in on your style. I am not advanced enough in my poi to have devoloped a "style" that I would consider my own. I think of myself as using "moves" that I have no ownership of... mainly because I did not create them. I've noticed that the fine folks over at glowsticking.com seem to share your concern about how moves and style get passed from one person to another... they seem to want to keep a tight hold on what they consider to be their.

She may not have understood that this was the way you were thinking. She may have had a much more open philosophy that considers all poi "moves" to be community property, and that people should be willing to share them without trying to assert a claim of ownership.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:I don't see what the problem is. shrug

I'm confident enough to know that I look pretty cool when I spin (because a friend and I have been filming each other practice), and I would have no problems in helping someone with their staff technique.

If I did something embarassing, then I'd maybe ask that they delete it, because it wouldn't be useful. Apart from that, they could video all they wanted. I'd be perfectly willing to go through every move I know slowly for the camera, and making sure they knew what the idea was.

If someone wants to learn, and wants to learn hard enough that they try to get some vids they can watch repeatedly, then IMO they should be given helpful advice.

So I'd disagree with you, but I wasn't there, so maybe she was being stalkerish in her attitude or something, I don't know. shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Filming is something that is happening heaps in the fire/spin scene here. Usually it is spinny mates photographing spinny mates. The skill and generosity of the photographers is high and usually it is fine by me. Sometimes I find it intrusive or distracting though; it puts some 'performance tension' in my personal space. Also I don't like being 'snapped at' when I am trying to talk to someone or learn something new.



But this sounds much more invasive, as you didn't know her, and she was explicit about focusing on you and wanting to take something from you for her own benefit. Not just *landscape with person doing something interesting in it* if you objected to that it might be a bit precious...



If she was offering to share the vid with you so you could also get some feedback on your style/moves that might have been different, but this sounds like a take with no give. It may be legal to take photos in public space, as Patriarch points out. But our human repsonse is more often about the ethical...



I suspect that qualms about being 'possessive of moves' are secondary to your disquiet about being invaded. I think she was being presumptious to assume that being photographed by a strangers would be OK with everyone.

Hope you are still enjoying the lovley weather smile


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:I agree with Sethis on this one....



And like Patriarch917 said, I'm not advanced enough to have my own style either. It's rare that I go out and spin by myself publically. If I do I keep to myself, and just do what I like, and on the odd chance that someone thinks what I'm doing is good enough to take photos of or film then I'd be flattered.



I think it's good that she approached you and asked permission to film you first. I know I would get a bit freaked out if I saw someone sneakily filming me from a distance, at least she had the courtesy to ask first. But yeah, I think it was kind of silly of her to storm off after you refused to be taped though. Oh well. Life goes on.



shrug


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I'm pretty sure it's illegal in the US to film people if they don't want to be filmed.

That's why the Indie film industry has such a major problem. Everyone needs to be an actor.

So in that case, you're in the right. smile


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Patriarch is, unfortunately, right- in most places people have the legal right to film you in public places.



***edit- by this I don't mean it's unfortunate that patriarch is right, but unfortunate that people have the legal right to film individuals against their will***



Then again, you have the right to cease spinning when they insist on filming you after you've have made it quite clear that you're not happy about it, and the right to move to a different part of the park to get away from them etc.



I'd say you weren't being at all unreasonable- whether legal or not, it's clearly very rude of her to have a go at you simply because you don't want to be filmed by a stranger.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:The laws depend on the intended use of the footage. It's legal to film anything in a public space as long as it's for editorial or personal use. As soon as the intent becomes commercial, that's when you get into the whole actor/model issue.

I don't think you were being unreasonable, but you do have to appreciate her asking.


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_khan_
_khan_

old hand
Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Member Since: 17th Nov 2004
Total posts: 768
Posted:Thanks everybody, for your input. I'm feeling more okay about it now. But just to be on record on a couple things...

Written by: Patriarch917

She may have had a much more open philosophy that considers all poi "moves" to be community property, and that people should be willing to share them without trying to assert a claim of ownership.



I completely, wholeheartedly agree that poi "moves" are community property. And if she had asked something like, "could I get footage of your antispin flower, I'm having trouble with that," that would've been okay. I would've gladly demonstrated individual moves for her camera if that's all she wanted. It's just that she explicitly said that she wanted to study my transitions and combinations, and that's the part that doesn't sit well with me. The moves themselves are community property, but combinations and transitions are personal -- that's where individual spinners' creativity and personalities come through in the spin. I personally have gotten individual moves from watching others, but I've never copied whole combinations, or done the same moves with the same body movement or footwork I've seen someone else do.

The way I see it, individual moves are like words. But routines, even an unchoreographed freestyle, is like a poem. We all use the same words, no-one has ownership of words, but we wouldn't all necessarily write the same poem. It's not like I could claim "The Wasteland" was my poem because, after all, the words are community property and everybody uses them. It's those particular words in that particular order that makes the poem. She wanted to copy my poem and I guess I just found that kind of bogus.

Written by: Sethis

If someone wants to learn, and wants to learn hard enough that they try to get some vids they can watch repeatedly, then IMO they should be given helpful advice.



I actually offered her advice, which she didn't want. She just wanted to copy my poem.

Anyway, I don't feel so bad now about the situation...I guess I was being a little possessive about the transitions I was working on that day and perhaps that caused me to be snippier than I should have been. I'll watch that in future.

Thanks again for your input -- even those that disagreed with how I handled it helped me clarify my own process around the situation.


taken out of context i must seem so strange
~ ani di franco

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: KaelGotRice

I'm pretty sure it's illegal in the US to film people if they don't want to be filmed.




Wrong.

It's actually quite the opposite.

No time to explain but... Kael = Wrongo with Rice.

hug


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:if you are in a public space anything you do public domain
they can take pictures and film...you have no reasonable expectation of privacy because you are doing it in public
think paparazzi
when you are a performer in a private setting you can say no taping and etc, but that is only because it is a private setting


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

I don't know the law specifically in your city, but if you were in a public park she probably didn't need your permission to tape you... and she could have done it even when you asked her not to.

So, assuming she knows this (she is the one with the camera, after all), she may have been asking simply out of courtesy for something which she knew she had a right to do anyways. Since you asked her not to do something which she had a legal right to do, she probably felt this was an imposition on your part... especially considering that had been "extra nice" by asking you at all.



My landlords recently asked me for my approval of something which they already had a right to do without it: approving of a potential buyer viewing their property, in which I live, on Monday morning of this week.

Although I couldn't approve of a Monday morning viewing, I did reply that any other time of the week would be convenient. Regardless of this, my landlord then told me that the viewing would occur on Monday morning.

What's interesting is that, at that time, they would have been within in their rights had they merely notified me that the viewing would take place on Monday morning. But to ask me whether that would be convenient and then to immediately disregard the opinion they'd asked of me is actually being considered as harassment by the council, who arranged my tenancy, and is being investigated accordingly on my behalf.

This shows how much difference there is between asking politely and stating nicely. Because she asked you, regardless of the law or poi etiquette, or even that I might have said "yes" in the same situation, I think it was reasonable to refuse.

As in my example above, it's not your problem if someone asks you a question and doesn't expect the answer to be "no"! wink


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Nudity?!?! eek

Im moving to New York! biggrin


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Cynicdave1
member

Member Since: 8th Apr 2005
Total posts: 36
Posted:"I think it's interesting that you are very careful about letting people in on your style. I am not advanced enough in my poi to have devoloped a "style" that I would consider my own. I think of myself as using "moves" that I have no ownership of... mainly because I did not create them. I've noticed that the fine folks over at glowsticking.com seem to share your concern about how moves and style get passed from one person to another... they seem to want to keep a tight hold on what they consider to be their."


Since not a single person made any attempt to say any different, and I being the creator of glowsticking.com, let me clarify that all we want is some credit sometimes for some innovations here and there.

We've been around the same time as HOP when everything was going, and we feel we contributed as much to the overall stringed arts as anyone, and sometimes, I feel as if we are stereotyped unfairly and even ridiculed for wanting to promote a particular segment of a stringed art without callign it poi. I mean there's jazz-dancing and tap-dancing right? and it's all dance. lets just agree to disagree without the stereotyping.


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Ry
Ry

Gromit's Humble Squire
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 2nd Feb 2005
Total posts: 4496
Posted:I'm not sure I'd have reacted the same way. I've had a couple of people on different occasions ask if they could film me with poi, and on all occasions, I've obliged. I'm happy even to make everything look clear, and do double takes (slowed down if necessary) if asked to.

The way I see it, it's a compliment. I'll do what I do and if you can take something from it, good stuff- if it inspires you, even better. I'm not afraid of someone 'catching up', because the way I see it, the way to be unique is to constantly be progressing. If someone's just videod, practised and eventually is able to copy my entire repertoire to the tee, I've obviously been stagnating.

Either that or I've found myself at the top and there is nowhere to improve further (right. best of the best, know all the moves, and have embraced the sublime). Which being impossible, I would write off as being the reason.

Wouldn't it be more fulfilling if they videoed you, after you volunteered obligingly, even made it as simple as you could, they studied your every move frame by frame and still you were well and truly in a league of your own?


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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:immitation is the highest form of flattery, i guess the question is why does it bother you?

"I mean, we all do the same moves more or less, it's how we do them and the transitions we use and which moves we transition into which moves that creates our style."

identification of a style as "mine" is the downfall of creativity. some ppl dont learn well from direct instruction (some of my fav spinners). If i was you i would be asking myself what is it is that is really bothering me and how it relates to how i feel about myself


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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