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Forums > Social Discussion > Domestic Spying authorised inside the US

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 - President Bush acknowledged on Saturday that he had ordered the National Security Agency to conduct an electronic eavesdropping program in the United States without first obtaining warrants, and said he would continue the highly classified program because it was a vital tool in our war against the terrorists.

In an unusual step, Mr. Bush delivered a live weekly radio address from the White House in which he defended his action as fully consistent with my constitutional responsibilities and authorities.

He also lashed out at senators, both Democrats and Republicans, who voted on Friday to block the reauthorization of the USA Patriot Act, which expanded the president's power to conduct surveillance, with warrants, in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks.

The revelation that Mr. Bush had secretly instructed the security agency to intercept the communications of Americans and terrorist suspects inside the United States, without first obtaining warrants from a secret court that oversees intelligence matters, was cited by several senators as a reason for their vote.

In the war on terror, we cannot afford to be without this law for a single moment, Mr. Bush said forcefully from behind a lectern in the Roosevelt Room, next to the Oval Office. The White House invited cameras in, guaranteeing television coverage.

Find the full article here:

Domestic Spying

Further questions? Yeah - maybe two...

Why did the american people vote this guy into office for another term?

Would they vote for such ......... again?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:He's had his 2 terms, they can't vote for him again.

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:... such ...

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:Ummm... hello?

We DIDN'T vote him in for a second term.

He scammed his way in to the presidency.

it's amazing what cold, hard facts can do to influence one's opinions. crazy little things!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:and, i might add, i have serious doubts as to whether the entire political process isn't a sham at this point... the "republicans" write and subsequently sequester the programs that count the votes. the illuminati are just bleeding the american system dry before it goes belly up. I really believe that americans aren't as retarded as our system portrays us.

W proof that texans can save the world


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:All about mayorities these days?!? How can a single guy scam his way into presidency of a 280Million people, twice? shrug



Arnold S. govenour of Ca.? Supporting death penalty? You think he may run for president like R.R.? He too got elected...



illuminati meaning enlightened... I hear this over and over again and it sounds much like the conspiracy theory...



and if it's a texan saving the world, it might be hug2 you... wink



Arashi I respect you, but don't you think this a little pushing away the responsibility? I know you do what you can - and that's by far enough - but don't you "victimize" the american public here? I state the same as with the rapist-thread...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Unfortunately, I think this is one of those issues that people won't care about unless they are directly affected. If Bush spyed on every Democrat I think he'd still get reelected. As long as he doesn't directly spy on more than half the US population I don't think it would affect much.

Americans only tend to care about their own civil rights. You can do whatever you want to their neighbors. (I mean the government would only be spying on them if they did something wrong ... right?)

wink frown


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:Well, Ahnold wasn't born here, so he's ineligible for the presidency, but that's not to say the constitution can't be amended. I could see him getting into office and doing a decent job. He's a very shrewd guy once you get past the bad acting... wink

Written by: FireTom
WASHINGTON, Dec. 17 - President Bush acknowledged on Saturday that he had ordered the National Security Agency to conduct an electronic eavesdropping program in the United States without first obtaining warrants, and said he would continue the highly classified program because it was a vital tool in our war against the terrorists.


Here's what it's all about. President Bush couldn't get his way through channels, so he changed the rules--again. Whenever things don't go according to plan, the administration just takes their ball and goes home.
After the last two elections, I have very little faith in the electoral process. I also have little faith in the citizenry of this country. We're lucky if we get a 30% voter turnout. Iraq just had their 'biggie' election and were just over 70%, and that was under threat of physical harm. Here people don't vote if there's something good on TV.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Gnarly Cranium
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco

Total posts: 186
Posted:Written by: FireTom

All about mayorities these days?!? How can a single guy scam his way into presidency of a 280Million people, twice? shrug

Arnold S. govenour of Ca.? Supporting death penalty? You think he may run for president like R.R.? He too got elected...

illuminati meaning enlightened... I hear this over and over again and it sounds much like the conspiracy theory...

and if it's a texan saving the world, it might be hug2 you... wink

Arashi I respect you, but don't you think this a little pushing away the responsibility? I know you do what you can - and that's by far enough - but don't you "victimize" the american public here? I state the same as with the rapist-thread...


...Did you see them tally up the ballots? I sure didn't. Nobody really did. Aside from the fact that the whole electoral process is run more on money than anything, and the fact that the average American citizen will recognize a photo of Britney Spears far quicker than that of any President who ever lived, and that our news media is all corporate-run and unbelievably biased... and who the hell actually believes for one minute that Dubya has the brain cells to pull any of this off by himself anyway?-- it would NOT be that hard to fudge the numbers. Sure, there are security measures in place, but 99.9% of the population takes it all on pure, absentminded faith.


"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything." --Stalin


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Didn't the Bush Administration set up the voting machines in Florida or some other state, then refused to allow them to be cracked open and inspected? I'm positive I read a newspaper article about that somewhere.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Why did the american people vote this guy into office for another term?

Would they vote for such ......... again?


Errr... while the spying thing's been back in the press recently, its path was cleared by the Patriot act which was passed by both Republicans and Democrats just after 9-11.

While the bill attracted a lot of criticism at the time from the left (not the democrats... people who actually have left wing political beliefs) only 1 member of the US senate voted against it (though admittedly quite a few senators confessed afterwads to not having read the bill).

So why all the fuss now?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:I believe there are people conspiring to direct the opinions of the masses. it's called "political science" and it is a tool that mankind has evolved to do three things; to regulate and encourage economic growth, to provide a figurehead for the masses to worship, and to get b-jers from interns. that about sums it up.



yes, i am placing the responsibility on someone else. there are bad people in the world. and i have accepted that the best we can do is try to open people up to looooove, man. cause the bad people will listen to reason, right? we can work within the system to make it better. that's what the cherokee tried. ever heard of the trail of tears?



the fact is, sometimes people do bad things to other people, amd the way it is presented is what determines how we see it. man if i believed everything that was put forth in the media, i'd think the same thing they do. you could say that the so called "american stupidity" is nothing more than collective naivete. America's got some serious growing up to do ,and we won't be able to do it until we take back our ability to communicate openly to each other. i blame the FCC and all the rest for the worst transgressions against the Constitution, the "American Way" and "Freedom"



pirate radio, yo.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:It's funny how the more 'safe' we are, the less freedom we have to keep safe.

Tapping my phone will not protect the nation from anything, except maybe insomnia. Far more non-terrorists have been arrested, tried and convicted because of the Patriot Act than have terrorists. Approximately 90%, that's 90%, of the convictions are for minor drug charges, resisting arrest, fraud, etc. The bulk of the sentences was under 11 months, which means these people are not being accused of serious crimes. And the reamaing 10%, who are actually accused of terrorist activity? It's the same number of people who were being arrested before 9/11. Their numbers have remained constant.

Excerpt From Bush's Press Conference, 12/19/05:

JOURNALIST: Why did you skip the basic safeguards of asking courts for permission for the intercepts? (FISA)

BUSH: First of all, right after September the 11th, I knew we were fighting a different kind of war. And so I asked people in my administration to analyze how best for me and our government to do the job people expect us to do, which is to detect and prevent a possible attack. That's what the American people want.
We looked at the possible scenarios. And the people responsible for helping us protect and defend came forth with the current program, because it enables us to move faster and quicker, and that's important. We've got to be fast on our feet, quick to detect and prevent.

What does this teach us? That for a teenager who needs an abortion, we have a judge on speed-dial, but for matters of national security, it takes 4 days to get ahold of him? Couldn't we take a coupla hundred bucks out of our grossly-inflated security budget and get the judge T-Mobile for Christmas?
ubbidea


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I dont think Bush is that smart and I think he needs a better PR team LOL...but you have to admit he is determined to do things.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:I didn't actually see my parents marry - yet there is good evidence they really had a relationship...



Anything happening "good" - I did it - anything happening "not quite" - it was a scam!



The scary thing, Sethis, is that EVERYONE was aware that the first election was much more of a scam (reg. Florida and the vote-count) and that the US electoral system is heavily flawed -

nobody really cared/s and this led to the second term.



At the latest election in Germany I didn't want to go - I still did in order to be able to look into the mirror... the outcome was not what I personally wanted, but I did my part. We have much more than 30%, but it's still frightening and one feels helpless.



EveryOne can only do so much at a time - as everyone else, too. Jest one has to actually DO it, or cease complaining and waiting for others to step up action.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Help - I need to unRespond and am able!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Gnarly Cranium
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Gnarly Cranium

member
Location: San Francisco

Total posts: 186
Posted:Written by: FireTom

I didn't actually see my parents marry - yet there is good evidence they really had a relationship...


And if there were thousands of people with trillion-dollar stakes in the appearance of your parents' relationship and the circumstances of your conception, and a few hundred years to skew the media, everyone's education, and the law in their favor, would you be so sure?

Written by: FireTom

Anything happening "good" - I did it - anything happening "not quite" - it was a scam!

The scary thing, Sethis, is that EVERYONE was aware that the first election was much more of a scam (reg. Florida and the vote-count) and that the US electoral system is heavily flawed -
nobody really cared/s and this led to the second term.

At the latest election in Germany I didn't want to go - I still did in order to be able to look into the mirror... the outcome was not what I personally wanted, but I did my part. We have much more than 30%, but it's still frightening and one feels helpless.

EveryOne can only do so much at a time - as everyone else, too. Jest one has to actually DO it, or cease complaining and waiting for others to step up action.


Hey, I voted, both times. Fat lot of good it did me. I felt unclean the entire time, because thanks to the way the system is set up, you're constantly forced into a lesser-evil method-- voting for, say, Ralph Nader (which I did the first time, hoping he'd get 5%) gets decried as uselessly 'letting' Bush win, so you HAVE to vote for the main competitor. Even if you know damn well he's not really much better. The choices are Evil, and Diet Evil. If we had a preferred candidate system, or even just the ability to vote AGAINST somebody, that would be another matter, but we don't, so even if the votes WERE counted correctly, mine was still effectively stolen from me. (granted we all know even if Nader won, he'd get stonewalled just like Jimmy Carter, or just outright shot)

Don't overestimate the awareness and intelligence of the American public. They're gullible. Really, really gullible. Most of them are barely educated enough to have ANY clue what the hell the government actually is or does. 60% of highschool graduates here can't even find the US on a globe. Quite a few of them are so utterly convinced that their country is a virtuous place that the idea of widespread corruption is downright ludicrous to them. It's practically a religious fervor in many cases. There's a good portion of the population here who would scream at me for being 'Un-American' for even suggesting any of this, and if these laws continue the way they are, I could get locked up for it and it would be my neighbor or something that enthusiastically turned me in. Just look at how this country reacted to 9-11... there was a collective gasp of shock and horror as suddenly the populace basically said 'what?!! you mean some people actually don't LIKE us?!' ..Many things that people in other countries take as common sense are downright unheard of here. The US has its collective head so far up its arse it's scary.

Forgive the example, but while Hitler was on the rise, do you suppose a few extra voters would have made much difference? At this point, working from within the system that's been tailored so well to the wildly popular corruptive powers would take such a massive number of people all pulling at once... I'm not sure we HAVE that many people with half a brain.

NOTHING much can change here unless a big chunk of the population wakes up. And even then, there's no telling how much violence will break out.


"Ours is not to question The Head; it is enough to revel in the ubiquitous inanity of The Head, the unwanted proximity of The Head, the unrelenting HellPresence of The Head, indeed the very UNYIELDING IRRELEVANCE of The Head!" --Revelation X

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:sad but poingant.

however there is a larger than we think amount of enlightened, without a voice.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Gnarly Cranium
Forgive the example, but while Hitler was on the rise, do you suppose a few extra voters would have made much difference? At this point, working from within the system that's been tailored so well to the wildly popular corruptive powers would take such a massive number of people all pulling at once... I'm not sure we HAVE that many people with half a brain.



Give you the example. Just in the past 5-6 years it has come to the notice of the international community that "the white rose" and "schindlers list" actually existed - and there were heeps more than that, who disagreed with the idea and practices of the ruling party. For sure people had almost no way to fight against what was wrong - or at least they believed it was.

For all past 2 decades I was trying to raise the opinion that you can't charge a whole country and their citizens for what a few are doing - sayings like "every country has the government it deserves" are cynical (but I perceive existence in general to be cynical sometimes) - anyways what is in our heads should come to our actions.

I was strongly hoping that in the past 70 years and from his example, the people would have learned. Hence I see the "free" "civilised" western world only designing the system a little more accurate, so the majority goes blindfold. And interestingly enough the methods of the late 1930's come to be in effect again. Politicians in "my" country have been sacked for making the comparison between GWB and AH...

Written by: Gnarly Cranium

NOTHING much can change here unless a big chunk of the population wakes up. And even then, there's no telling how much violence will break out.



This is what makes "awakening" so dangerous (look at 1789) a revolution not only causes a lot of suffering, but many times eats up their own children - leading straight back into the same system as before... just a little more sophisticated.

As in case of my fellow countrymen... there was actually the last AND peaceful western revolution happening on the soils of Germany - leading into the breakdown of the (fake) "communist" system as a whole (- are these (my) informations faulty?)

But again in the long run the will and aspiration of those people was turned against them and abused - today they find themselves caught up in the "glassbead"-business. They might have gained (artificial) freedom but they had to trade in a great deal of rights and benefits (especially and foremost the "RIGHT of a workplace")...

There are by far more enlightened people without a voice than assumed - you're totally right on this one Arashi - and this fact gives me a great bunch of hope (wich will die last - I suppose)...

Here and now I'd like to call on everyone to practice the tolerance and dialogue that they want to see from their dear neighbours with all the due love and respect to each other. If even a small community cannot overcome stereotypes and act in a certain way - how can they expect that from anyone else?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We have to become the change we want to see in the world"
(M.Ghandi)

***off on an airplane (not wheelplane) - don't know when I'll be back again... love and light to everyone meditate ***

...guess if you want someone to have "balls" you should always try to attempt hitting him in the latter so they grow stronger... (nietzsches principle) wink weavesmiley biggrin


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yeah, now there's bipartisan stuff going down to start investigating this.

Think they can impeach two presidents in a row?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:here's a funny sticker i saw;

"SOMEBODY give him a blow**b so we can impeach him"


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

Delete

FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:eek that's drastic!

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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