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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...rev=#Post510437
br>there is a short vid and explanation in that post.. scroll down to the clarifications section...

ironic a bit that the vid clip also shows huggies which was where this topic was doing the threadjacking.. Everything below this was cut from that thread and placed here instead so I didnt jack it.. it kinda picks up where that left off... sorry for the mid convo start.. but all the content necessary is right here..

the thing to keep in mind is that degree crossover basically refers to the degree you are in when you crossover.. hence why I said reels cant have a degree higher than zero because they never crossover.. but I can argue that reels can crossover... and I've always described crossers as being offset reels... (notice I decide not to argue and concede the point and hop crashes.. wink perhaps I shouldnt be so.. umm... agreeable?!?)


but anyway... so as far as degrees go..
zero degree means that your hands are on their side when you crossover.. meaning.. your right hand is to the right of the left hand.. thus a left leading left and a right leading right are examples of zero degree... other examples would be buzzsaws.. butterflies.. reels.. and anything else that doesnt crossover.

first degree means that you are crossed to the opposite side.. (either right over left or right under left) a perfect example would be a 3bt weave.. going left or right..

second degree means twisting that an additional 180 degrees... ie. 5bt twist..

now the differing comes in how you break down weaves and what not..

for example..
2bt weave= first degree one side, zero degree the other..
3bt weave= first + first
4bt = second + first
5bt = second + second
etc.. and so forth..

an offset (like a 5bt with a 2 bt in the middle.. )= second + first + second + second +first + second.. (5,2,2,5,2,2, and back to the beginning) or something like that.
see how that doesnt make sense.. because that's where its at when they crossover..

a different way of putting it is to say that you attribute +/- to it.. so
a 2bt weave = +first, zero
a 3bt= +1, -1
a 4bt= +2, -1
a 5bt= +2, -2


a 5bt offset would be: +2, +1, +2, -2, -1, +2

the question then becomes what is plus and minus.. and that doesnt matter.. that's only a point to distinguish a 'right over' first degree from a 'right under' first degree... and it really doesnt matter which one you are talking about because it works if right over is + and it works if right over is -....

this ultimately reduces to-
2bt being a 1 degree change (ie: 0,1; 1,2; 2,3; -1,0) etc
3bt being a 2 degree change (ie: 1,-1; 2,0; -3,-1) etc
and you can derive the rest from there.. this accounts for any and every type of offset.. I thought at one point there was a problem with this design when I first advanced it in tenticles thread... but I dont see it now..

as far as I'm concerned though the important point of degrees comes from simply thinking about what degree you are in.. not worrying too much about the writing out of it all.. because the major point of degrees was that it rids the need for beats... why rid beats?

5bt weave
5bt bf weave
5bt isolated weave

what do they have in common? beats right..
what abouut 5bt antispin? it doesnt match that.. BUT

5bt weave
5bt bf weave
5bt antispin weave
2nd degree inversions
crossover wraps
out-in-out hperloops

what do they have in common? they are all second degree moves..

thus you can use one system to quantify all the move subsets.. (including wraps and what not eek)


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Dut
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Posted:that's a useful way to look at things, but hardly "the one system" to qualify all moves by. first off, you're using degree to describe 180 degrees of hands crossing, right? and it only counts when the crossover is in the plane you're using to move the poi thru... what about all moves with hands 90 degrees offset from that? where one hand is on top and on bottom, for example, instead of left and right? is that "half degrees"? or front and back instead of top and bottom? can you not go into a move in 1st degree and come out of it in 2nd degree by crossing your hands through the turn? maybe i'm confusing wraps with degreed turns that only simulate wraps. and i see how you could talk your way into saying a top/bottom split is always either a 1st or 2nd degree <i>in relation to the horizontal plane</i>. but you do have to specify i think that your degrees are all in 180 degree intervals, and thus miss all moves that don't assume your hand orientation has to match your move orientation.



if the "360 degrees in a circle" terminology overlap doesn't bother you, there's also already a math/engineering term for "degrees of freedom" that your "degrees" directly opposes. degrees of freedom describes how you lose degrees when you cross as opposed to gaining them. like if you had two doors back to back and they were hinged to open toward each other -- together they half half the degrees of freedom they'd have if they swung in opposite directions. the descriptions for that also work according to each plane and each hand, and describe more what options are not available to you rather than just randomly assigning one plane as the "degree plane" and having all crossing described in terms of that plane. imagine that when you cross your wrists for a regular 5 beat weave tho, you generally lose half your degrees of freedom by removing the inside/outside plane for each hand. i dunno. i need to work out a better feel for when what degrees of freedom are lost, but i've been concentrating more on physical movement and dancing than theorizing. the term is already overused tho. hehe. can't we just call a 5-beat wrapping motion a 5-beat whether it's really the butterfly or corkscrew or inverted anti-spin whatever? i know i always have.



-- dut

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Comentary:



I call 5,2,2,5,2,2 Poi siteswaps.



Offset



'+' - Meen even offset. 22, 33,...

'-' - Meen odd offset. 25, 52 ...



You can use offset sign quite nice with baces cause:



5,2, is sum of "beats", but



4(11)4(11) or

4(1+1)(1+1) (Cross-over 0 and 5b twist 2)





than you can make from ,



5,2,2,5,2,2 sequence



(52)(25)22 or



5(22)5(22)



But only the first one is correct than, you can not add degrees as you like, there is allways ballance between left and right. And offset gives the two "jumpers" between degreeses.



:R





ps: Inverted wraps a lot of fun smile

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Richee
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Posted:Dut >

a)Degree have hothing with planes.
Degree have nothing with direection. Its different story. (Rev?,?)

b)Half degree, nope the beginning is zero.

c) First degree to secon, by corssing hands OK smile

:R


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Dut
SILVER Member since Mar 2002

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Posted:eww. call it a "beat", not a "degree", richee. it looks like you use + to show degree change, which is all you need to know other than what beat you entered and exited on. so that's more like how i think of it too. but you can definitely have unbalanced 5,3 -- 5,5,3 -- anything. maybe part of that is in how you're using parenthesis, which i don't understand entirely. are there turns involved anywhere?



as to your next post:

a) there are three dimensions. his "degrees" count every 180 degree rotations around the axis of only one of those dimensions. leaving out all 90 degree rotations in other dimensions, relative to the axis the poi are moving along.



b) he counts only left and right, never top and bottom. where is the beginning of a fully formed circle? where is the end?



c) okay. i do understand what he's saying. i actually spin more with his notion of "degree" in mind, i just don't like the fact that it reuses terminology, is biased toward the horizontal plane. and it's unneccessary if you know what beatcount is on either side, as rev acknowledges. it's the same way of describing something we can already describe simply.



it's also the same theory as in :

2/4/6 beat corkscrew/windmill

2/4/6 beat in-time butterfly weave



i still usually think of those as the 3, 5, and 7beat actually. hehe. but i know they're the 2/4/6 if i wanted to describe it here. which is in line with rev's "degrees", but with an already used, even more descriptive name system that takes into account vertical moves. biggrin



-- dut

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:I know and chenged it.

I just want to differentiate notation, example Weave that can be written like:



33 (this is siteswap)





or (21)(12) but not as 2(11)2 (better siteswap)



Why not? cause:



112211221122



Cant be



cross-over(11) > Figure 8(22) > Cross-over > .... or



Weave(1221) > Weave(12221) > Weave



so you need to differe.







a)I think plane changes klike atoms cant number notation handle.

b)Top and bottop is same for me like left or right.

c)Check Huggies thread for tenticle system.



And about the turn, there is carry so every time you are in one half of figure 8.



:R

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Rev
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Posted:dut..



I dont have time to really read all this through.. but I want to address a few things..

1- Beats are WAY more complicated... take any concentric move, and you'll see what I mean.. beats don't apply to wraps, and anyone who thinks beats can be used to keep track of tangles dont' really use them..



2- degrees are irrelevent to an axis.. why? because the position is the same regardless of what plane it is.. regardless of what plane you are in there will always be a favored and unfavored hand.. for more commentary on how this applies to even beat moves, I'm afraid you'll have to search for the post that I made ( I think its in its own thread) where I discussed the difference between even handed moves and odd handed moves.. you'll have to do some excavating but somewhere in there I refered to everything using degrees because well... I like the idea.. so I use it..



3- back to beats again... how does it help someone who knows beats? well that depends on their competence level.. once you get to the point that some of us are at, it really doesnt matter what you call it. are beats helpful in the beginning.. sure.. I guess.. but the thing is degrees are an across the board measure.. that help rid lots newbie-isms.. like why beat counts are what they are.. why what they are doing is the 50 beat weave they thought it was.. etc.. its one concept that is central to a LOT of things.. and it helps clear up so many confusions, while at the same time helping them organize their move base a lot better..





I'm not saying everyone needs to move to it.. I'm saying its simple, its efficient, and I , and a lot of others, particularly enjoy it.. (especially us geeks who like to be precise with our tech talk)



ps: and yes this works with atoms too..


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Dut
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Posted:>>I dont have time to really read all this through.. but I want to address a few things..

try just this part. hehe.
Written by:

c) okay. i do understand what he's saying. i actually spin more with his notion of "degree" in mind, i just don't like the fact that it reuses terminology, is biased toward the horizontal plane. and it's unneccessary if you know what beatcount is on either side, as rev acknowledges. it's the same way of describing something we can already describe simply.

it's also the same theory as in :
2/4/6 beat corkscrew/windmill
2/4/6 beat in-time butterfly weave

i still usually think of those as the 3, 5, and 7beat actually. hehe. but i know they're the 2/4/6 if i wanted to describe it here. which is in line with rev's "degrees", but with an already used, even more descriptive name system that takes into account vertical moves.




my opinion is also that if you get confused trying to count your beats, you deserve to be confused. biggrin the names "3beat" "5beat" "7beat" and 2/4/6 are correct for their base moves. actually, learning beats+turns rather than degree+freeform is a lot better for intermediates when they learn things that are turn-equivalent like inversions. in the end tho, it's not going to matter who calls it what. people who can do it will eventually understand it and people who can't will struggle with different text descriptions until they do. there's no "one way" to describe everything tho, and if you think you have one, you're likely neglecting more variations that whatever convention you're trying to replace.

i've yet to read any of your stuff in this forum i didn't agree with, but think of in different terms, once i understood where you were going. things i understand tho only account for about 25% of my spinning. i make oli's vids look "normal" most of the time. i don't hold to strict planes and strict timing, so your degree system being even more simplified than the already over-simplified beat system just makes it even harder for me to describe things that i'd be tempted to call 'half', 'quarter', and 'negative half/quarter' degrees in your system. this is why i usually don't describe things in text tho. lol.

-- dut


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Richee
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Posted:
Written by:

Dut

Intermediates learn things that are turn-equivalent.





Interesting, I never thought like that. smile

ps: Half is Carry(Omnimodus)
Quarter can be quarter time, but its very hard.
Negative meen using negative space(deep in HOP).

and negative half/quarter' you schould explain to me smile

:R


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:dut, that's precisely the point.. the degrees IS the oversimplification, whereas beats are not..



beats are different based on different 4bt ttn, 4bt weave, 4bt antispin, 4bt flower.. ALL have different 'beats'.. rather than figuring out what family you are in, and what quadratic equation that family uses, and then accounting for air speed, and other nonsense.. one can tel beats to fark off and just worry about what matter...



degrees have nothing to do with beats, because the amount of beats that you can put into a degree is irrelevant.,.. I can do a second degree crossover each side of my weave and have anywhere from 5- 15 beats each side.. the only time beats ever come into degrees is when you reduce the beat count to the minimum number of beats that the said degree system can be performed in.. and that's ultimately what the notation represents...



this relationship is the same as the move beat vs actual beat relationship.. except when it comes to things that the beats dont work on.. you can't use beats on wraps.. but you can use degrees.. you cant use beats on antispin.. show me one person unfamiliar with antispin, regardless of level, and try and explain to them why a 3bt antispin has 10 beats, and 5bt antispin has like 18 (though that MAY be reducible to 14)





inversions are more aptly done degrees than beats hands down.. hence having 3bt first degree, 5bt first degree, 5bt second degree... beats alone cant tell you the difference between a first and a second degree inversion... degrees can.. because one is a same led first degree, the other is a cross led first degree, and the same eventually applies to the second degree ( cross led second degree (5bt) vs same led second degree (7bt)) one down...



this is not my system.. this ben's system... the only thing that is different between ben and I is how we notate.. Ben prefers (thanks to richee for bringing that back up) to an offset 5bt weave as 2,-1; -1, 2 and I do 2,1; 1,2 because I use degrees running the full 4<->-4 so a normal weave would be 2,-2 and he only uses - to insuate that its offset, so a normal weave is 2,2





now I bring that up because a carry in my book is REALLY easy... if you have a carry in another move, the degree doesnt change... so as you move through that plane, you are in the same position.. which is easy to notate with me (and not ben) because you just leave it 2,2 where the second 2 is the plane being carried through. whereas a weave would be 2,-2 and an offset would be (at the least) 2,1... the only thing left out here are 0 degree moves.. and no offense but reels, butterflies, buzzsaws, and those carries, don't really need any notation do they.. hence why we dont notate them now..



quarter time refers to the timing of the poi.. nothing else... this has nothing to do with the degree of the moves.. because they work the same... a same time move can still be performed at a particualr degree... just as split time and any other time.. saying timing affects the degree is like saying atoms work different than butterflies.. which is absurd...



ubblol beerchug





edit: oh. yeah I forgot... inversions are non zero degree buzzsaws.. ttns are nonzero degree butterlfies, and crossers are nonzero degree reels... sjs are inverted crossers ( I say that because they are inverted thus have to be nonzero degree reels)




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Richee
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Posted:Rev



Written by:


Reels, butterflies, buzzsaws, and those carries, don't really need any notation do they..







Of course thay do, bacause only on the basic you can build(and pick up something:) ).



3bt antispin has degree, but no beats cause its not based on Figure 8 there is no carry for me. Bacause degree is "hand position" based whether beat is "Poi path" based. Tenticle's is planar.



Right,lets put it together:

Written by:




a) Planar notation



0 - Hand on its side.

1 - Hand on oppossite side

2- Hand on oppositte side from behind.



b) Leading notation



0 - Hands do not cross.

1 - Hands are crossed.

2 - Hands are double crossed.



c) Beat notation



0 - Carry.

1 - Figure of 8

2 - Figure of 8 and carry.







First I thought that Degrees are a), but now I think b). About the odd and even. If Im right, odd meen '+' offset, even '-'.



:R



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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:How does a 3bt antispin weave have 10 beats? What on earth are you doing?! Mine has... 3 beats!

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Rev
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Posted:I dunno... something to do with the whole thing about it taking 2 poi circles to make one antispin circle... I mean you can make the poi do one antispin beat but then you are just jerking the poi in a line or fully isolating it..

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coleman
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Posted:i had a think about something similar once - the fact that you can spin an antispin weave using a 4-point flower as the 'antispin base pattern' (i.e. the shape that the poi heads describe).

so there are 4 beats before the poi repeat their position in the base pattern.

however, there are 3 beats in a 3bt weave (before your arms repeat their arrangement) so we get the poi spinning at different points in the base pattern each time we cycle through the arm pattern (the 3bt weave in this case).

that would mean that the pattern wouldn't actually repeat (in terms of poi position and arm poition) for 12 beats.

thinking about it like this made my head feel a bit spongy so i gave up and assumed that the base pattern must be a 3bt antispin flower pattern otherwise i wouldn't be able to do it and seeing as i can, it made much more sense.


cole. x


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mcp
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mcp

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Posted:can we play drumming games now?

so one person does a three beat drumming pattern, by clicking and clapping and slapping their knees, and the other person does the same. Then the other person switches to a four beat pattern, so that they only join up and clap against each others hands every 12 beats...

yay!


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coleman
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Posted:spinning the poi in a 3:2 polyrhythm whilst trying to do the above would break even danny carey's brain i reckon wink

3:4 on the polyrhythm game is for babies though meg - its all about the 7:8...

lclick, rclick, lslap, rslap, doubleclick, doubleslap, (chestdoubleslap), clap.

if nyc comes around here, shouting the odds about the paper cup game, run! tongue


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mcp
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Posted:well obviously once you get 3 or four people with the drumming game it becomes interesting. As you have to have 5 and 6 beats too. Maybe. I can't remember, ask kit.

plus polyrhythm, I mean really? There's only going to be 4 rhythm's at any given tiem isn't there? Two rhythm's for the poi, the music and the one your dancing to?

Why isn't it duorhythm?


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coleman
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coleman

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Posted:do i have to ask kit - she never call, she never writes...

i may have even made up the 4 person version with nyc on the meadows but maybe i was just manifestin' sh!t at a different time...

"Why isn't it duorhythm?"

because polyrhythm is what its called?

poly just means 'multi' i think.

i might be totally wrong but i think its rare to find a piece of music with more than two discrete rhythms making up a true polyrhythm.


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
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mcp
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Posted:poly means multi, just like a few people means like a few. A couple, means like two.

There are only two poi. (But there is no spoon)


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Because polyrhythm sounds better than duorhythm I reckon smile

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Rev
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Posted:when I say 10, I mean 5 each side.. I think its 1 beat (crossover) and 1 beat per poi per 180 degrees thereafter... at lest that's how mine come out because the minimum I can do 1 anti-spin circle is 2bts.. same with the planetwister... I've gotten the plane twister in 1 but as I said before I either fully isolate the poi or I'm just jerking it up and down..

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Richee
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Posted:Anti-spin makes leafs or circles?

Rev, you meen nephroid:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Epicycloid.html
br>
:R


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Rev
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Rev

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Posted:what's a nephroid?
that link shows same direction spinning.. ?!?

I guess you can say leaves.. but I wasnt trying to describe the effect of the poi path.. just how the poi moves.. it makes a leaf at the top and a leaf at the bottom.. and the left over parts of the circle on either side can be put together to make leaves there (or just reflective points if they don't overlap... )


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Richee
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Posted:Written by:

I agree leaves, rather than circles. The link, the link shows cycloides,
mathematical interpretation of anti-spin. In fact special exaple, where:

There is bib cyrcle. There is one antoher going outside and around
the big one. Its touching it in one point. Imagine point laying on the
small one. Than anti-spin is shape of path that the point makes during
the small cyrcle travel.

There are two centers of spinning in antispin, hand, its the center of
the small cyrcle making shape of path(one big cyrcle), during the
travel. And Poi head, the point laying on the small cyrcle.




But we are way of topic, so in terms of beats, one hand in anti-spin wheel plane makes one big circle in one plane. The other hand do the same. Than in terms of degrees its 0.

:R


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Rev
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Posted:I guess I'm confused because the link shows the small circle (the poi center) moving CCW and the small circle is being moved aroung the big circle (the arm center or move center) also going CCW... its a same direction beat only with the poi starting at a funny angle... rather than the poi starting facing away from the center (as is standard in same direction spin) this starts it with the poi facing inward towards the center.. which is a same direction way of sticking 2beats in one circle.. not antispin.. it just looks weird because the first poi beat isnt acknowledged since it isnt touching the outside of the other circle..



I understand this is way off topic.. but I would really like to understand what you are getting at here..



:edit: is the nephroid the antispin version of the link???!? confused



nvrmnd that... I saw the nephroid.. its a 3bt same direction circle that makes 2 leaves... te first leave does a beat and a half and the second does a half and a beat wink I still dont see antispin though..

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Richee
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Posted:
Written by:

Ok, check this http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Hypocycloid.html
br>
and look carefully(the previous link was just introduction).

Now Hypocycloid is our Anti-spin, the center of the small is going
CCW(its the hand) and the dot on the circle is going CW(its Poi).
And 4 leave anti-spin is the picture 3.

Only the leaves are not so visible, cause in real the dot is "out of
the circle" but still on the "half line".





:R


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Rev
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Posted:that is definately more in line with antispin.. wink and shows what I was saying about one beat antispin just being a line.. though the 2beat antispin looks a bit different than that diagram.. confused

thx for the link


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grald


grald

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Location: frankfurt/germany

Total posts: 22
Posted:youll ge an antispin-figure, if the small circle is rolling inside the big circle. in this case, the figure is called a hypocycloid or hypotrochoid.
a nephroid is a special form of a epicycloid (spin), with special relation of diameters (2/3 as far as i know)

have look at these applets:
http://did.mat.uni-bayreuth.de/geonet/be...loiden.html#top


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grald


grald

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Location: frankfurt/germany

Total posts: 22
Posted:Written by: Rev

antispin looks a bit different than that diagram.. confused





the diagramm shows a hypocycloid, in poi we normaly play hypotrochoids http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Hypotrochoid.html
. its all a question of the relation of the diameters. with staffs its quite easier to produce cycloids
http://www.burncrewconcept.org/viewtopic.php?t=1511&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: Rev

that is definately more in line with antispin.. wink and shows what I was saying about one beat antispin just being a line.. though the 2beat antispin looks a bit different than that diagram.. confused

thx for the link



smile


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Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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