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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > crane question follow up (HA!) (opp direction atoms)

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:another question without explination im afraid.

ok, so the crane is same direction atom, and then you have the opposite, opposite direction atom.

my question is this,

Can you tangle an opposite direction atom??

i thought i could, but on re-examination i was twisting a plane to bring it into same direction atom.....

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:you tangle an opposite direction atom like a butterfly? or maybe I'm missing understanding the question.

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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:I think so by twisting both poi round each other.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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simian


simian

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Posted:agree with spiralx, i think...

hey, in atoms which is opposite and which is same again? confused2

or should i just shut up? footinmouth


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:take your right poi simmian and spin it in the left wheel plane fwd.. take the left poi and spin CW in the front wallplane.. that's a same direction atom.. take the right poi and move it from left side plane to either right side plane or buzzsaw and you get an opposite direction atom..



spiral- whihc is the same as butterfly stuff right?!?


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:well, with my tiny limited amount of atom knowledge...





ATOM:

[opposite dir poi in 90 deg plane orientation]

spin both poi in fwd wheelplane (inside your arms if you like smile).

then tip the top of each poi's planes inwards (towards each other) by 45 degrees.

that's an atom.



CRANE:

[same dir poi in 90 deg plane orientation]

from a regular atom (as described above), cross one of your arms over the other, keeping the centre of rotation and relative plane orientation.

this is a crane.





dammit, arashi was right - his terminology is *way* cooler cool





cole. x



[edited for clarity and consistency ubbangel]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi


arashi

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Location: austin,tx

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Posted:yeah well i still don't understand what you guys are on about redface



but i can tangle just about any position wink (does it have to be clean?)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

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Location: austin,tx

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Posted:oh wait are you calling cranes >same direction atoms, and atoms> opposite? dammit you guys and your changing words around... i can't be bothered spank

crane atoms can be airwrapped using blucat's "box" style crossover airwraps... but only adjacently, IOW one poi in one "atom" (really just a half an atom) and another in an "atom" next to it... does that answer your question?? no you're asking about something else never mind. if you'd just put it into my language i'll try to answer your question but i'm not going to try to relearn all the new words you guys come up with shrug


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

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Posted:biggrin

i know both what they mean, AND what you mean!

wow!

and nix, the answer is yes, of course you can.

R


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:arashi - if you show us where you defined all your terms completely non-ambiguously we'll happily use them smile

and for the record, i understand everyone here too - except rob of course tongue


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

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Posted:really? even after my workshops, the whole atomic area of the thread and the terms still make no sense? confused wait you say you understand me!

i don't understand how the words don't make sense, you just do an atom, move your hands around, and every basic form is there. i can understand if it's just text, but... i dunno whatever.

instead of try to understand you i'll let blue answer the question. wink i've got quite a while before i catch up to all the stuff i have to do.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:i did your workshop and that's why i get your terms.
the words make sense to me because i've seen you spin a move and say a word - but they weren't what i thought they were before i'd seen them...

just about everyone else on hop hasn't done your workshop, so saying 'you just do an atom and move your hands around' doesn't really help them too much shrug

this stuff is super-hard to describe at the best of times so i reckon it makes sense to try and explain the terms in as many different ways as possible - sorry if you think that is confusing the issue man hug

hell, i didn't even realise what plane orientations you were spinning in until i met yoo! redface

i'll go edit my post so that it doesn't muddy the waters as much.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

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Posted:it's not confusing the issue... just me! ubblol

so don't bother, i'm just trying to explain why i can't answer. i'm sure you're capable.


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

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Posted:i edited it - does it more clearly agree with your definitions now dude? smile

hug


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Analemma


Analemma

enthusiast
Location: West LA

Total posts: 384
Posted:Same direction and opposite direction Atom is kind of a confusing terminology imo since atoms go 90degrees apart. Which is in a way always different direction. This seems to become more apparent in splittime.

Written by:
cross one of your arms over the other, keeping the centre of rotation and relative plane orientation.
this is a crane.


Sametime there is a slight speedchange involved (like TTN), splittime you have to change planes imo.
Arashi showed me how to do it without but he was always shaking his ass while doing it so I couldnt really follow and was totally ubbloco
(Ill have to visit you again, any plans for November or do you wanna come up to Vancouver ubbrollsmile ?)

hug

andy


To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:ok.

terms, well, im not going to start defining things here, im gonna wait untill Ive got all the theory in my head, then write an artical witch will use a lot of old and new terms and dfine them properly, but thats for later.

Im not so shure you can tangle an opposite direction atom.

when you tangle a butterfly, you bring the poi inside to tangle, outside to stay in state and the opposite inside to untangle.

this is because the buterfly is an opposite direction attom, on the outside. when you bring an atom inside you change its direction, so in this case you are changing it to a same direction atom inside. its an atom with really accute planes, but atom none the less. you tangle in this form and bring to opposite direction outside to sit in the tangle (i.e. the tangle keeps going without winding up further) then take to the opposite inide to untangle.

my thinking is progressing to the point where the opposite direction form cannot be tangled, and when the poi are in a tangled state already the tangle becomes neutral (twisting and untwisting at the same time) in the opposite direction state.

this works with weave too, where the poi tangle in the outside position (same direction) and then is neutral in the inside position (buzzsaw tangle).

if you just spin an opposite direction atom, inside or outside, there is no point in the spin where the poi will wind around each other, to make a tangle in this state you must first wind the poi up in a same direction position and transition to the opposite direction state where the tangle will sit untill transitioned to the next same direction position.

cor, that was clear...

now blue might point out that you can tangle a butterfly in the outside poision witout coming inside, but this tangle is a trinity plane change, and therefore not an atom, and not relevent to this discussion. biggrin


T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:no andy, an atom definatly has a opposite and same direction, thats why you have to crane.

say you have an inside atom with vertical planes. in oppoite direction backwards atom both poi heads go from the top of thier arc toward the respective armpit (or opposite armpit, damm atoms too many states) in same directionone poi heads toward the armpit, one poi heads away, clear?

as rev said you change from one to the other either by going inside to outside, crossing your hands or taking one to a rear plane.

if youd come to my workshop you would have seen it spank wink

T wave

p.s. thease terms are sh!t i know, as i said above there are too many connected states for an atom to be in. wait a while and we will have some better ones.


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:nix- I must see video of this... I can tangle a butterffly WITHOUT trinity plane change stuff.. just straight butterfly tangle on the outside.. and I've seen itchel do it on the inside.. there might be a vid clip of that still somewhere on spherc..

you can bring one inside without changing it to a samedriection.. it just dpends on where you are and what you move...

for example. ( I hate using these planes but they make it simple.. )

right poi fwd right wheel plane..
left poi CW front wallplane..
if you make an atom like that then bringing the right poi inside doesnt do anything.. its still a opposite direction atom and only becomes same direction whne you get out the other side.. (ie. right poi left wheel plane fwd, left poi front wallplane CW)



butterfly tangles work differently then same dirction tangles.. but they do exist.. and they exist without resorting to same direction stuff.. and by consequence the opposite atoms have to work the same way.. all we ever spin are atoms anyway.. I don't know why we bother talking anything else.. we just dont always spin atoms as seperated as arashi likes atoms to be.. your same direction butterfly and normal butterfly form an x since they can never be flat.. so anything you do with an atom is exactly the same as normal stuff, just slightly exagerated..


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"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Written by:
no andy, an atom definatly has a opposite and same direction



No it doesn't, it has a similar and unsimilar direction nana

similar would be when the planes are at an accute angle to one another, unsimilar when they are obtuse, and that only depends upon which quadrant you are standing in.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:rev- in your example your right the atom reamains a same direction, but only one poi is inside, if you take the same example and bring both poi inside then it becomes same direction because the poi are now intersecting behind the hands, rather than infront.

and when you make your outside buterfly tangle there is absolutly no messing of plane??

Matt, spank

a real atom has no obtuse or acute quadrant, thats an atom with bad planes :P I wish i could come to bristol to show you what im on about, but im not, so there :P and please dont confuse the issue, unless you really dont believe atoms have two directions....

i been thinking maybe the only way to tangle a same direction atom is in same time as opposed to split time, investigation needed....

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

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Posted:hate to say it but you're wrong ubbangel

we never did get around to my airwrap workshops, rolleyes ... but you are right of course about the relationships btwn, the airwraps twisting and such, just short on some airwrap entrance possibilities

incedentally, matt got much of my atomics positions on film and i assure you that once you see them again the bases will be more than covered and all the answers will be easier for me to give ubbrollsmile

til then...


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

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Posted:and andy, november.. is pretty open, but i'm not sure i can go to vancouver... i may have to work on sage's boyfriend's house again by then though, so i don't think i could leave for very long. i am hoping to set up some workshops on the west coast by dec-feb though, pm me...

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:nix-
ok.. bringing one inverted(buzzsaw) I suppose doesnt change it.. neither does bringing both.. bringing one poi inside makes it same direction bring both inside makes it a reverse of what it was.. whihc is still opposite..

so.. I dont remember now why we were talking about one inside.. but I realize that I've been using buzzsaw in my descriptions.. and that;s not inside so I've corrected myself.. but I still dont see where this is going because buterfly tanlges work like opposite direction atomic tangles.. with the difference being the degree of 'x' made by the pattern..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:cole: again, i don't want to make anyone use my words if they find them unsatisfactory. shrug i just don't want to try to understand all new ones. but thanks anyways

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Written by:
Can you tangle an opposite direction atom??



yes, you can, you just accelerate the poi behind so it gets to the crossover before the leading poi, the heads come inside, if they both start off outside. Just like a butterfly twist, or am i seriously missing the point???

My point above was that the direction the poi are going is relative to which quarter of the atom you are standing in. Just as the direction of a normal weave depends whether you're standing in front of it or behind it. Neither the atom nor the weave have a direction, it's just your orientation to it.

With weaves it's quite useful to consider which direction it's going, with atoms i think it's more important to consider which quarter you are standing in. And of course calling them same direction and opposite direction is misleading because the planes are at 90 degrees.

It's nice to do them like arashi does them, in planes at 45 degrees to horizontal and wheel plane, because you are then effectively hovering above it with no legs to get in the way.

Think about it. If you are spinning in time forwards wheel plane, then slowly tilt the planes inwards untill you are doing an inwards butterfly. Then the poi start off going in the same direction and end up going in the opposite direction. At some point they change from same to opposite direction. That point is when they are at 90 degrees to each other in an atom. If an observer looks at you from the front when doing an atom, then it is opposite direction, if they look from the side then the poi are moving in the same direction.

What's does change when doing atoms is the direction your wrists are spinning. If you look from your wrists to your fingers they will be spinning CW or CCW, so you're saying that if they both spin CW or both spin CCW then this is same time, if one spins CW and the other spins CCW then they are opposite direction. SO i guess that's kinda useful to know, but again this is determined by where you are standing.

I dunno what i'm going on about, time for bed,

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:LAY THE SMACK DOWN YOU DREADLOCKED MONKEY SUIT WEARIN WHITE BOOYEEEEEE!!!!!!



quote: "yes, you can, you just accelerate the poi behind so it gets to the crossover before the leading poi, the heads come inside, if they both start off outside. Just like a butterfly twist, or am i seriously missing the point???"



jesus you just had to go and find a really short way to say it, didn't you? so terse, effective, poignant. *bows*



"With weaves it's quite useful to consider which direction it's going, with atoms i think it's more important to consider which quarter you are standing in. And of course calling them same direction and opposite direction is misleading because the planes are at 90 degrees."





can you hear the humming of the tanks?

UBERPOI WIBBLERS BLITZKRIEG!!!!


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:lol arashi.

matt, the sector of the atom your hands are in radically alters the atoms behaviour.

the terms same direction and opposite direction are confusing, instead thing of this.

think about two cogs, placed at 90 degrees to each other, both are turning inwards to the point where they touch. like this the rotations 'mesh' and one cog turns the other.

however, if you take thoes same rotations but move one cog passed the centre of rotation of the other suddenly the cogs are no longer 'meshing' but 'clashing' and the rotations move against each other, the cogs start losing teeth.

thease are the two main states of atoms, and you swich from one to the other whenever you either cross your hands, bring the atom inside or transition the plane of one poi. (this dosnt mean bringing one plane inside or outside, as this dosnt effect the touching point of the circles relative to thier centre of spin.)

geddit?

and the question is, in the 'mesh' state, can you tangle the poi?

i recon maybe your right, you can by speeding up one poi. which would be a whole new family of tangles.....

good thread this.

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:"which would be a whole new family of tangles..... "

Actually that's the fist tangle i ever learnt, do a butterfly, accellerate the following poi and it tangles. I think this is what people refer to as a butterfly airwrap, but since i hate the terms airwrap and hyperloop, i refer to this as a butterfly twist.

Took me about 3 years to figure out how to do proper inversion butterfly tangles, about 2 months ago, lol. Any inversion can be considered a Tangle rather than a twist. Just managing to link together butterfly twists and tangles. Absolutely delighted.

As for the atoms i here what you're saying but i'd ammend your cog analogy by saying that the cogs never touch each other so it shouldn't make that much difference wink

Yeah, this is a good thread, learning lots

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2364
Posted:if you feel like looking on the old board i described these wraps and others in the definitive meteors thread

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic

Total posts: 1841
Posted:3D staff fully in progress smile,

well done,

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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