Forums > Social Discussion > Katrina kills thousands

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
yup Bluecat, that is what I am saying. No guns available here to the common folk at any rate. Certainly not at a Wal Mart. ( I'd be concerned about the quality if there were... )



Consequently lots less death by guns...



The reason I mentionned that is listenning to the few reports coming back from one of Vancouver's top urban rescue crews, that went to help immediately after the hurricane struck. They are shocked and dismayed to find that can not actually do what they are trained to do in the time of most need, because they are being shot at. It might be easier to convince people to put themselves on the line, going to another country to help in a crisis, if the people they were trying to help were not using weapons on the rescuers.



As for desparation leading to violence, well, it is worth reflecting on why this kind of violence is happenning there , when elsewhere there have been disasters as serious during which we did not see violence, hostage taking and looting surface as major issues-- certainly not enough to hamper rescue attempts. Poverty /power/economic imbalance was also present in the other regions, so that is certainly not the sole factor. It is not inherant that people will resort to such behaviour in times of crises. In fact, in Thailand, I saw and heard of many extraordinary acts of bravery , intelligence, unity and compassion as people came together to deal with the panic, horror, death and pain.



So why in some situations, and not others? Of course I have my own opinions, but for now I pose the question more to point out that in terms of preventing such responses in the future we might want to really take a hard look at where it comes from.( Walmart? )



pele, you are showing a lot of hostility( or at least that s how your writing comes across right now? ) , and that makes me uninterested in continuing the discussion. I dont lecture you. I meant to encourage people in general to be responsible and proactive,and make simple preparations. That is all. If you already are, that is great. Some people are not, cause they are just not thinking about it, and the likelihood is so small they will need it.



Yet, when people are unprepared, it is other people who have to risk their lives to attempt to save them. Those people risking their lives in New Orleans right now, the ones trying to get food and water to people, providing medical attention and trying to protect the weak, also have families to care for, and friends who worry about them. Regardless, they put themselves on the front line, with courage and compassion, voluntarily, to save the idiotic and the unfortunate alike, without discrimination. I am just sad that you did not acknowledge the sacrifice they make to try and help the citizens of the US.



In general, you might want to acknowledge that Canada has always stepped in to aid the US in times of crisis, even when your government perpetually dicks us around on so many levels. We do it because the people of the US are wonderful, our friends and neighbors. We care. But it is offensive to go to that trouble, and have people not even say thankyou. Never mind thank you, you have insulted a whole lot of people who are working hard for the well being of your citizens.





Time for some anger management I would say, and though it is only one sentence, you can count that bit as a lecture. I want to send you ( Pele ) a hug too, but I am worried you might bite! O rShoot!Ah well, have one anyways...





Glad to hear some of the aid is now reaching more of the people, so hopefully the peak of desparation will ease up soon.

~A
EDITED_BY: andrealee (1125692175)

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005

Written by:

---

What about the sick? The elderly? What about those who just didn't know where to go

---

Please re-read by previous posts...my statements about people leaving on their own man-power refer to only those who can physically leave. Not the elderly, not those who are crippled or otherwise can't leave.
I'm speaking of the people who are looting and commiting all the violent acts. They have and can leave on their own two feet if they wanted to, so why haven't they? Why are causing more problems is a troublesome situation? Those are the people I've been writing about and questioning their motives, not everyone else.
If some thug has the energy to rape a woman, then he has the energy to get his own butt out and let the people who are there to help actually help those who want it.

That was my point, I should have said it so simply, yeah?

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
Andrea, that's a brilliant point. In the wake of a national disaster, why has the response of the people involved been so different? Violence vs Mutual Aid. Completely different thread here, so I won't keep talking about it. I won't start another thread either, because it would be very easy to say something that someone would find offensive. I'm going to wander off and think about that one.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
If you are interested in helping and can spare at least $5.00, please

CLICK HERE

to give to the American Red Cross.

Thanks

I was touched by His Noodly Appendage

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
Incidentally, guys, if you started walking on thursday, with just a backpack full of food and water and the clothes on your back, yes, i'm sure you could get 80-100 miles.... which would have done you what exactly?
Put you in the middle of Louisiana with no shelter at all and a hurricane coming?
Anyone have a better suggestion? There wasnt even close to enough public transportation for evacuation, and many people didn't know about it either.

Just a thought....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
over sixty nations offering help now- including cuba !!! who has said they would send over a thousand doctors and nurses, and tons of medicines... Canadian universities offering to take students whose studies are disrupted at the louisiana university.... All sorts of gestures of caring and concern ongoing

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
Just saw Jesse Jackson who made a truely profound statement about the delays and complaints about the recovery effort:

"Americans have a high tolerance for the suffering of black people."

I have been known to often disagree with Jesse but on this one he's dead on.

And did anyone see Kanye West on the Red Cross Fundraiser? He stopped reading the script and said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." NBC quickly cut away to another celebrity. Don't know that I agree with that completely, but I surely support the sentiment.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
Serious, I had this quick flash of thought about some sort of conspiracy, as every newspaper I've seen with photos and images of videos on the telly of the struggling survivors are filled with all african americans, and almost no whites. I heard that 30% of New Orleans was below the poverty line, so it's not just blacks I suppose, but poor whites getting utterly screwed over.



to everyone



I'm not disappointed with the gov't so much as those in charge of it. Perhaps that's the same thing...

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?

Wildfire/US East coast fire footage

LA/EDC glow/fire footage

Fresno fire

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
[Aside: Kael, I'm confused. The 30% below the poverty line is largely black. New Orleans is something like 60% black as a whole with blacks compromising the lower socioeconomic stratus. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I just didn't understand what you're suggesting. We're seeing overwhelming amounts of African Americans on the news because there are overwhelming amounts of African Americans being affected. It just so happened that the Hurricane hit a predominatly black area.]

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
I am trying to understand the implication- is the government of the US really suspect of letting these people die unneccessarily because they are Black? Seriously, that level of extreme racism?! I have trouble digesting it. Compounded by the economic factors- are they being accused of deliberately letting poor people die? That at least makes a bit more " sense" (if you can even apply that word-) as it seems everything the US government does is about making/protecting money one way or another. Perhaps in the US poverty/race/violence are such intertwined issues that you can not separate them?



Do you really think this was a conscious choice made, rather than simple incompetance and poor distribution of resources( a mild term for the fact that so much of their reserves/resources are being used in Iraq right now) ? That is very disturbing to consider.



Having just watched Hotel Rwanda( movie) ,and remembering the worklds poor response to that crisis, thinking maybe it is possible. I had not even considered that aspect til just now. Hard to even think about, very sad.
EDITED_BY: andrealee (1125715650)

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
The implication is this:

Many of those that had means and resources (middle class) to leave could get out got out. This left behind those that did not have the means and resourses. In New Orleans, that's the black population.

The relief effort was flawed.

The implication is that the government is less pressured to help because of the fact that it is mostly a lower class issue. This was further amplified by the fact that the lower class in this case was of a minority race.

I am certain if cute, middle class blonde girls were trapped on rooftops there would be more outcry to save them and less emphasis on the looting and negativity.

This has been the largest natural disaster in recent US history and, even in Bush's words, the response has been 'totally inadequite'.

It's difficult to ignore the class issue.
It's difficult to ignore the race issue.
Especially in this country.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
[aside NYC: My post was a semi-serious thought to where are all the whites in the news? I assume they got abducted by aliens from cuba, or they are just not getting the air time. In all seriousness now, I'm suggesting that perhaps the gov't response would have been swifter or stronger had it been a richer (not suggesting a racial prejudice at all, but economic prejudice) area affected by the storm.]



EDIT- Missing upper/middle-class white girls in Utah and Aruba featured in the news anyone? How often do you see long extensive news coverage on missing black people, or hispanics?



puh-leaze! Is it because they don't go missing at all, or because they go missing all the time



blah

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?

Wildfire/US East coast fire footage

LA/EDC glow/fire footage

Fresno fire

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
[I think folks often forget that the demographics of some areas of the country are literally 99% black. The school I taught at in Brooklyn was less than 10% white and New York is a pretty diverse city.]

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
I've actually been watching CNN all day and I'm fairly certain when the water finally subsides and all of the stories come out it will become very obvious how much of a failure the recovery effort was in New Orleans.

The hurricane was uncontrolable. But the response has been unacceptable.

I really feel that many flaws will be exposed over the next month. But by then football season will have started and everyone will have moved on to the next celebrity trial or foreign invasion.

And the whitehouse will certainly have to explain why they cut the funding to reinforcing the levies by 62%. Actually, they probably won't have to explain. And that's the sad part.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
You are probably right NYC, but we can still hope that this event has shaken enough people out of their complacency, and will cause at least some areas of government to reexamine the plans they have in place, and make positive changes. Will the people of the US not demand this?

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005

Written by: NYC

---

I've actually been watching CNN all day and I'm fairly certain when the water finally subsides and all of the stories come out it will become very obvious how much of a failure the recovery effort was in New Orleans.

---

Side-note, possibly innaccurate...

Surely, as alot of New Orleans is something like 4-foot below sea level, the waters won't subside?
It's going to need to be pumped, and that's a heck of a lot of water to pump

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
Yep... the city has a series of pumps designed to remove water... just not on this scale, as like the levees which were meant to protect the city, the pump system is bolloxed.

But they will get rid of the water... it's just going to take time

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
I see trying to completely restore the Orleans and surrounding areas a bit of a long-shot. It's just going to happen in what, 50 years? 100 years? The only benefit is that perhaps they will construct a levy that might withstand such forces? But what about houses and businesses? I think it would be worth it for them to level the city, remove everything, and raise the city bed to, at least, ground level with the lake...
I know that sounds crazy - a huge job, that'll take mountains of dirt, money, time, etc etc - but if people insist on living there, then it would be a worthy investement. When people first began living there, they probably didn't expect the city to gain the popularity and status that it has.

If someone wants to start throwing the race card around for this situation then I'm going to have to ask for you not to. Race isn't a reason or excuse for everything! That's rediculous. Hurricanes and floods aren't racist, neither is death or fate.

I am baffled as to how people are going to recover from this. They have no money - all of their banks, jobs, homes, belongings have been destroyed. There are people out there who don't even know their social security number. If you don't know that, what can you do? (See as how the gov't basis everything on a bunch of numbers, it's such a flawed system.) The more I think about it, the more shocking it is.

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
If someone wants to start throwing the race card around for this situation then I'm going to have to ask for you not to. Race isn't a reason or excuse for everything!

You're right, its an economic thing. The people who had cars and/or plenty of cash got out of New Orleans. Those without the means to leave, ie the poorest people/the disabled/the elderly stayed. It just happens that a large proportion of the poorest people in the states are black, and it's been that way since they were freed from slavery. Its not that the republican party doesn't care about Blacks, they don't care about the poor generally, they tend to vote democrat. Politics is largely about keeping you're supporters happy, for Bush thats the rich and religious right.

And as for levelling rather than restoring New Orleans... Well Southern California's likely to fall into the pacific sometime in the next couple of hundred years when the San Andreas fault line gives, so I reckon we should start by removing Los Angles and San Francisco from the earth. And as Florida's prone to hurricanes why not destroy that too. Oh and I believe Japan's full of volcanoes.... Natural disasters happen, we just have to deal with them as best we can, not abandon any areas likely to be affected by them

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
What are people's opinions on the Katrina/climate change link?



According to prof David King, the UK's cheif scientific advisor '



We have known since 1987 the intensity of hurricanes is related to surface sea temperature and we know that, over the last 15 to 20 years, surface sea temperatures in these regions have increased by half a degree centigrade.



"So it is easy to conclude that the increased intensity of hurricanes is associated with global warming."



Professor Kerry Emanuel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology also claimed, less than a month ago, that ocean surfaces had become warmer, which doubled the destructive potential of tropical storms in the past 30 years.



Though these views have been challenged by other US based scientists who claim Katrina (and the increased number of hurricanes this year) are merely part of a natural cycle.



My thoughts are that we're causing serious damage to the biosphere, global warming, deforestation, contaminating water supplies etc, and while there's no certanties to the effects this will cause (there is no historical precedent so all models are simulations of what might happen) we can be pretty sure that the effects will be deeply damaging for the prospects of continued human life (at anything approaching the current global population).



Who knows, maybe with some intelligent campaigning this can serve as part of wake up call to the US, a country which with only 4% of the worlds population consumes 25% of fossil fuels and has repeatedly refused to include itself in any global treaties to attempting to reduce our reliance on non-sustainable, polluting technologies such as Kyoto.
EDITED_BY: dream (1125751650)

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Posted: 3rd Sep 2005
I'm afraid some people forget that the US is one of the biggest countries (land mass wise) in the world - that makes a difference in how we've built our cities, blah blah. Quite a few Americans are willing to commute to and from work each day - driving for an hour or more. But, on the same hand, quite a few Americans are willing to give up their SUV's and take up walking. I have noticed an impressive increase of people who are doing just that around my neighborhood, lately.

Fortunately with our plans to move closer to my husbands work we can forgo the need for vehicular transportation.

And I've learned recently that gas prices in America are considerably lower than the average prices in other countries. That does say something very negative about my country, however, the only way to get passed a problem is to learn how to deal with it.

The big differences between America (what we know and how we do things) compared to everyone else is that we are younger. Other countries have been establish far longer than America was known to exist - that actually sets us back. Other countries have had problems, famines, disease epidemics that have cost lives, money and resources. (The black death, that came at a height for civilization in the 1300's and almost annihilated the entire European population. Then there was WWII and the Nazi regime - killing millions of Europe's own flesh and blood. The potato famine, and on and on it goes.) And, those countries have learned from those situations of what to do and how to do it. It's, apparently, our turn to learn what works and what doesn't work.

I, also, don't value much as far as scientific reasoning goes. There are some studies you can perform in a controlled climate. There are some that you can't.

Mother nature is mother nature. The earth has survived tsunamis, humans, animals, volcanos, disease, on and on. If we're bothering her, she'll just shake us all off and start over again. That's not saying that we shouldn't care for the environment, that's saying that we do our part and when it's time for our species to meet it's end, it will happen.

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
completely agree with blucat. i hope our idiot government aids america's idiot government. i have many opinions regarding this issue, but as so many are injured and dead, without homes, without loved ones, i will shut up, offer sympathy and love. x

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
No andrealee, the people of the US will not.

I'm not saying no-one will, Cindy Shaheen, The mayor of New Orleans, there are people out there who really care and want answers, or at least solutions. But as a whole, the people arn't going to rise up and care, which is whats required to really fix things as a whole. Or even half. Or any more than piecemeal, really.....
Or maybe even piecemeal.....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
'I, also, don't value much as far as scientific reasoning goes'

neither does the bush administration. Despite 95% of climatologists having reached a consensus that climate change is largely due to human actions, the US government denies this. It's why they've managed to upset the international community and environmental campaigners worldwide.

'when it's time for our species to meet it's end, it will happen.'

??? when who decides its time for our species to end? If the cold war had ended in global annihalation of human kind would that have been the time for our species to pass into history? Agreed no species will last forever but when we are contributing to not only the potential extinction of our species but also of the 10 -20 thousand other species on the planet, all of whom are affected by our actions (some 40% of the worlds wildlife is expected to become endangered or extinct over the next hundred years) I feel we have a moral duty to try and act to stop this needless destruction of our habitat.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
*sidenote, Anyone ever read "Ishmael"? I forget the author's name.

PS- Even Cuba offering aid, I'm impressed. Wonder if we'll accept.

>_<

To do: More Firedrums 08 video?

Wildfire/US East coast fire footage

LA/EDC glow/fire footage

Fresno fire

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
I've heard from a couple of folks that there was free transport out of the city for those who had no other transportation, but the people who needed that transportation didn't know about it, if it was actually available to them. If those who need such transport out during an evacuation don't know about it, then how effective is such an evacuation plan??

One former mayor of New Orleans has said he wasn't aware of a plan in place to get the poor out. I grew up there, and I never heard of a plan to get the poor out. The message given to people who couldn't get out was go to the SuperDome.

Others have addressed that walking wouldn't really get you very far...and given the geography around New Orleans, it could leave you incredibly exposed.



(And off topic, but...someone mentioned something about part of California falling into the ocean...geologist moment here, but that's NOT going to happen because of the type of fault the San Andreas fault is...if anything, in several million years, LA and San Fran might become one giant mega-city, but the area west of the San Andreas isn't going to fall into the sea.)

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
Well, I'm impressed by my community in this event.

For the first time in a week I had to go to the store down the road, I passed by a local radio station which plays music for the heavy metal/ hard rock crowd.
They're one of the many of tousands of locations that are taking donations and filling up truck after truck for supplies that are need...I'm quite impressed - the parkinglot is filled with hundreds of people, there are palattes stacked up with supplies, etc. There a sign that says "cash donations accepted here."

This is the first I've really seen of local action, though I went out the other day and gave some stuff to the Salvation Army Dropoff, something like this impresses me.

I have some friends that I've spoken with lately who live in Texas and northern Louisianna - they've opened their homes to people who've asked.

That's moving.

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
Just watching an item on SBS, and the fact that the disaster zone is bigger than britain came up. The sheer logistics of that is utterly beyond me. What would happen if the entirety of the UK ended up underwater?

There was also the call-up of another 17 thousand nation guardsmen, bringing the total to 50 thousand. The rough estimate so far on fiscal damage is up near 150 billion dollars.

Then there was the australian tourists wanting the gov't to send a helicopter to come from here to pick them up. not sure how they were expecting them to get it there, though. The only way i can think of is that they'd divert a naval ship to the US, which, depending on their location, would probably take the better part of a month. Agreed, the government here doing something would be very very nice, but i don't know what they could do that would make a difference. Attempting to push in on the evacuation effort already in place would likely be more hindrance than help.

I spose, though, i'm sitting comfy at home, not in the middle of a massive disaster zone, which makes it a lot easier for me to look at it that way. Or maybe i'm just too cynical tonight...

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
"I really feel that many flaws will be exposed over the next month. But by then football season will have started and everyone will have moved on to the next celebrity trial or foreign invasion."



Excellent point NYC... From Breslan and the Tsunami to the genocide in Sudan and London bombings, our news has been filled with really horrific events in the last year. It only takes a couple of weeks after thousands of people lose their lives before we move on to the next tragedy.



What will be next?! What tragedy will force Katrina down the news agenda where the victims will be forgotten and the emphasis on making sure it doesn't happen again is lost?!



Are things getting progressively worse in our world - or are the media finding more immediate and direct ways to get the story across?



(And the media can't just 'not report' these things in an effort to keep us positive - we have to know what's going on. Also, they have an important local role in times of disaster to inform and educate.)



Either way, we collectively need to find a way to keep the real issues at the top of the agenda.





"It's, apparently, our turn to learn what works and what doesn't work."



We know.

And maybe when the rest of the world is saying 'don't invade other countries' or 'don't re-elect your president' some people may listen (such optimism )



(And no, I'm not being 'anti-American' - all my thoughts are with those who are suffering because of this disaster (and others like it around the world). Well done to those who are putting themselves out to help)

Getting to the other side

Posted: 4th Sep 2005
I posted this in the "How do you live?" thread - thought I'd post it here, to. a google view of new orleans before and after Katrina: https://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=New+Orleans,+LA

use the +/- to zoom in/out and your mouse to navigate, click on satelite/hybrid to view it with photos - map just shows the street names.

"I'm your Huckleberry."

The muse spake her thought and then there was silence. Thy spiked tongue had melted, only a bitter heart remained.